[TrustingMyHP]

I ran across an article online today that gave me things to ponder about my marriage and the state it was in when my H decided to begin his affair with OW.

I know I've read this type of information before but, as we all know, it takes time before we're ready to think about, or open our consciousness to consider, some things.  The time has to be "right."

I know we are not to blame for our spouse's decision to commit adultery and leave their marriages.  I know we could have been perfect wives or husbands and our spouses still might have chosen to have an affair, but I've come to believe in my case that I did, or did not do, things that influenced my H's mental state; not caused his decision, just influenced it.

The article, "Adultery," is by clergyman/columnist/author Kerby Anderson.  It can be found
here:  http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/adultery.html

In it Anderson summarizes points made by another clergyman/author, Willard Harley, in his book, His Needs, Her Needs:  Building an Affair-Proof Marriage about what Harley believes are the five needs a wife has that, if not met, can lead her into an affair and the five needs that a husband has that, if not met, can contribute to his decision to have an affair.

Harley's five needs for men are:  sexual fulfillment, recreational companionship, attractive spouse, domestic support, and admiration.

For women they are:  affection, conversation, honesty and openness, financial commitment, and family commitment.

When I "graded" myself on how I met those five needs vis-a-vis my H I gave myself a C/C- grade on three of them and a B-/C+ grade on the remaining two.

I was not being hard on myself and this isn't a "pity party" assessment on my part.  It's just painfully acquired honesty and understanding I've come to at 22 months post-BD;  knowledge that's come from a lot of reading/journaling/thinking and praying and also the "gift of clarity" that comes with time.

When I considered my H on the five needs a wife has I give him a B/C+ on four of the five and a D on one of them.

It makes me sad to realize how off the mark I was and how I truly wasn't meeting those "basic" needs of my H very well. 

It's also instructive to me as I move forward on my own journey.  I'm a long way from being interested in pursuing a new relationship but I will be mindful if/when I do about these needs and, I hope, a better partner.

TMHP

[Thundarr]

TMHP,

With all due respect, your logic has one major flaw.  You cannot grade yourself on how you are perceived by another.  To give yourself low scores on how you saw yourself as a W you have to look at the fact that you are grading yourself from a woman's standpoint.  I fall into this too so I'm not being critical.  All I'm saying is I guarantee your score should be much higher than you give yourself.

And as far as what women want according to the author?  I can honestly say under oath that I did all that.  That's what aggravates and perplexes me whenever I stop to think about it.  I can check off every one, and did it regularly/ daily, and I still had to face my W telling me I was a worthless piece of $h!te.  Yeah, it still hurts.

[TrustingMyHP]

Thundarr

I understand what you're saying about grading myself. 

I have no doubt, however, that if my H were looking at these five "needs" he'd give me about the same grades I did (maybe lower!)

No doubt at all.  He used to speak directly about my inadequacies in these areas, even long before BD  (I just didn't want to hear it!)

I don't think I'm denigrating myself.  I'm seeing myself more objectively and that's part of the work I need to do.

Believe me, I brought a lot of positives to my marriage and I now see those more clearly, also.  They just weren't the ones Harley sees as most important!

TMHP

[Trustandlove]

TmHP,

I do get what you're doing, there are always valid criticisms among the litany of our faults that we hear from our MLCers, often at BD.  What we do need to realise, however, is that what happens is that our spouses stop letting us meet those needs -- and then complain that we don't. 

Take 'recreational companionship' for example.  This can be in the form of quite suddenly changing interests, and not wanting us with them, and then saying that we didn't share those, or they can just suddenly stop wanting to do things with us that we always enjoyed together. 

Or take sex -- they can suddenly say that it's not enough for them, when it always was, or they can say that we're not interested in doing things that they never were before either.  And, crucially, they can say that it's not enough at BD, giving that as a reason for leaving, when previously they never ever said boo about it. 

Or they can withdraw their side, and then say that we're not admiring them (to use one of the terms on that list) when we get upset about that. 

I do see the point of doing mirror work, and facing things about yourself, all of which I think is good -- I took a good look at myself as well after BD, and found plenty to work on.  Just make sure you don't tip over into blaming, and remember to look at your good points as well. 

[Anjae]

Trusting, I don’t think it is helpful, in a MLC situation, to use info on regural marital situations or normal affairs. None of that sort of info/ideas fit into MLC.

Also, one expert will have a few things as the more important ones in a marriage and another will have different things. Plus, not all men and women are alike/value the same things.

Please don’t fall on the trap of the LBS that blames itself and think wasn’t good enough for the spouse. MLC has nothing to do with us. Yes, like T&L says, we can take a good look at ourselves and improve our selves but there is no point in us beating ourselves up thinking if I hadn’t done this, or have done more of that, none of this would have happened. The MLC would have happened no matter what.

[calamity]

TMHP,

I cannot let this pass without commenting.  How can you think you didn't meet each other's needs when you were married so long?  I mean I could find 100's of things wrong with me but, mostly, the only thing really wrong in my marriage was that we were both a bit bored with life.  20 years of parenting & being a bit stuck...oh, just like most long marriages!    Who said, if you don't like liver you don't eat it every day for 30 years!  Sorry I'm yelling.  At him not you. 

As it says numerous times on the board, make changes if there is something you don't like about yourself but don't make changes to meet someone's needs.  Especially now when your h is gone & there's a creepy stranger occupying his body!   

If your h 'wakes up' that would be a good time to think about needs. 

[Trustandlove]

I just wanted to add another thing -- I remember having this kind of revelation just over a year into this when I first read the 5 Love Languages book -- I realised that I hadn't been speaking one of H's languages.  And it wasn't a difficult thing to do, it was just that I had never thought of that way of expressing love.  H even read that book then, and said "well, it's not rocket science". 

It was a good thing for me to understand that people need different things to feel loved, and that I had been doing for him what I myself would have needed (a very typical scenario), but even when I talked about this with H, for we were able to somewhat then, he wouldn't have let me meet those needs at all.   He had no interest whatsoever in meeting my needs, btw. 

It was good in that I then became much more aware of, for example, what each of my children needed, and of course of what I myself needed, which all helps in relationships in general, but I had to remember to be careful not to twist myself into a pretzel trying to meet everyone else's needs, and in particular that no matter how much I tried to show that I could meet H's need, he wasn't going to let me. 

[Dontgiveup]

This is not meant as a direct response to TrustingMyHigherPower or anyone else, but to simply provide some information from RCR and the articles about this topic.  What TrustingMyHigherPower expressed seems to be one of the differences in how women may think differently from men about this topic.

Consider this bit from RCR

Men are fixers too, but women are relationship fixers, whereas men see a problem and link it to an individual rather than relational dynamics.

It is not uncommon for a female LBS to reflect on the marriage and begin to question it.  As a male, I link the issue directly to my ex-wife and not the marital relationship (as RCR writes above).  In the weeks after bomb drop, I reflected on my marriage and could come up with absolutely nothing that would even remotely lead to what happened.

Below is more food for thought.

From RCR's article Midlife Crisis Takes Time
Though no one is perfect, in the beginning you will search your own behaviour for what went wrong. Since the MLCer often offers a long list of your transgressions, it is not a difficult search. In the beginning, many LBS's accept this blame, using it as the excuse for the bad marriage. For many experiencing this crisis in their marriage, there was no bad marriage. Though nothing is perfect, many problems were not significant enough to warrant danger. The problem is the Midlife Crisis.

Like many others on the forum, I read or browsed through several books on marriage.  I have read Willard Harley's book that TrustingMyHigherPower refers to.  In the very brief marital counseling that my wife and I did, the counselor wanted to discuss John Gottman's book.  My MLCer made a mockery of it, which is when I started really understanding MLC is not about the marriage, but about an individual.  Below is some information from one of RCR's blogs with things to consider.

From RCR's blog "MLCers Meet Martial Warning Signs"
Those books are about how to do something before the situation reaches where you are now—prevention and damage control, but those books are directed toward marital problems, not the problems of a midlife crisis. Reading them can be a waste of time for many in the midst of MLC because since your MLCer will not respond to many of the techniques and efforts, you run the risk of using what you read to interpret that your situation is hopeless.

[Mamma Bear]

  I think a lot of what happened to me can be summarized by a description I read in one of those books. I can't remember which one
  I remember reading "It's like a 7 year old boy giving his Dad a toy firetruck for Christmas!"  We give what WE want! Meanwhile the other person is like 

  Also ALCOHOL played a HUGE role in my first M imploding in 1994. My current H and I quit drinking and went to AA meetings etc. Everything seemed great until he fell off the wagon and started regressing into depression, hopelessness and BLAME!
  You can NOT win with a drunk!

[Ready2Transform]

I just wanted to add another thing -- I remember having this kind of revelation just over a year into this when I first read the 5 Love Languages book -- I realised that I hadn't been speaking one of H's languages.  And it wasn't a difficult thing to do, it was just that I had never thought of that way of expressing love.  H even read that book then, and said "well, it's not rocket science". 

It was a good thing for me to understand that people need different things to feel loved, and that I had been doing for him what I myself would have needed (a very typical scenario), but even when I talked about this with H, for we were able to somewhat then, he wouldn't have let me meet those needs at all.   He had no interest whatsoever in meeting my needs, btw. 

It was good in that I then became much more aware of, for example, what each of my children needed, and of course of what I myself needed, which all helps in relationships in general, but I had to remember to be careful not to twist myself into a pretzel trying to meet everyone else's needs, and in particular that no matter how much I tried to show that I could meet H's need, he wasn't going to let me.

So consistent with MLC.  From the articles:

http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_understanding-infidelity_other-woman.html


 Often there are needs the spouse is not or was not meeting that the other woman is meeting, but these are not due to spousal neglect, rather they are due to the midlifer's refusal to allow the spouse to meet these needs. Some cheating midlifers continue sexual relations with agreeing spouses, some would continue, but the spouse refuses. But after disclosure or discovery many transfer monogamy to the other woman, thereby forbidding the spouse from meeting the midlifer's sexual and accompanying needs.

Even during reconciliation or attempted returns, when the other woman is not present, there may still be needs a peroson in midlife crisis will not allow the LBS to fulfill. Often these are wants rather than needs--such as an MLCer wanting someone to make decisions for him. The other woman will comply by deciding which woman he should choose; this is often the main decision an MLCer delegates to another.

The unfulfilled needs may not be those at the bottom of Maslow's pyramid of hierarchal needs such as love, food, shelter--basics. A spouse may have provided those without fail. But what primitive piece of himself is missing that he is now recognizing in and projecting onto another woman.