[Mermaid]

 They need to see us as separate from them, to appreciate that we hurt too, to show consideration for us, in order to get over the egocentricity of their ML madness.

But sometimes we need to tell them what we expect of them. We need to say what we feel, assertively, but when the time is right. I have the feeling that you may get this chance with your H (based on what you've told me), but my crystal ball is a bit dusty...

Have you tried copy-pasting the links? The second link doesn't seem to work, but if you google "new sex score card" it comes up. The first link works, but I first got it by googling "Baron Cohen male female brains" (I've read some of his work). If it doesn't come up, I'll mail you the links.

[Bewildered]

 
will try tomorrow off to sleep now ,,,,,,,,,,, time not right with H still NC with me bar one text now he's away for 3 weeks with work and holiday running a marathon
told D y'day he was at the airport she said where are you going and he said I gave you my itinerary so you would know .. he didn't ?? so crazy hey?
anyway peace for 3 weeks and we are now 12 hours apart in a time zone as well as in real life !!
xx
 

[StandandDeliver]

LiaW,

You make an interesting point, but I guess the answer may have something to do with the fact that nurture plays a role (and no matter how hard even the best parents try, they do not treat each child in a family exactly the same), but NATURE must also come into play. Personality type must affect these things. For instance, I have cousins whose parents went through a divorce when they were teenagers. One cousin seemed to cope at the time while the other spent much of the time yelling and screaming at the parents and generally showing them exactly how p***ed, angry and confused the divorce made her feel. The cousin who reacted BIG time at the time has been a much more functional adult, whereas the one that "just accepted" everything (conflict avoidant?) has had a much harder time adjusting to adult life and continues to search for herself. So the same environment can produce very different reactions in different people.

[Mermaid]

Nurture and nature are equally important. There are no genetic factors that can be studied independently of the environment, (see: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-12339798 ).

Yes, personality types make a difference. My H was highly sensitive, introverted and an excellent student. It made sense that he would pour his energy into doing what worked (academic success). His extrovert sister, just 11 months younger, presumably generated more social support for herself when she needed it.

But gender  and position in the family are also important. The eldest child is typically a high achiever, and also has the greatest sense of responsibility. Moreover, the age that a child experiences a traumatic event will influence the perception and impact of it. Boys may have a different relationship to their mother than girls, are expected to behave differently, and their brains may be hard-wired to behave differently.

Then again, every child in a family will have a different experience. My H was sent to a military boarding school at the age of 9 while his younger sisters went to live in Africa with their parents and cousins.

[Glimmer]

Hi

My H is 1 of 4 children.  They never had a close relationship with their father. He was very opinionated and would lay down the law. They were all frightened of him when they were younger, even though he has now mellowed with age. He would shut them out of the kitchen while he ate his meals, and they weren't allowed to talk to him unless he said so. I am sure that he would hit them if they did anything wrong. I can remember H telling me how he would tremble with fear waiting for him to come home from work because he had broken something playing football.  I think H always felt on the outside and has said that he never really knew how to talk to his father, this is still the case today.

Hs 2 sisters and 1 brother have both developed personalities like their dad. They are very strong and vocal, and as they have grown older have stood up to their dad more.  H is the only sibling with his mum's personality.  Very sensitive (pre MLC)and always the peace maker, non confrontational. Even now he finds it difficult to open up to his parents and tell them anything.  I think this is why he left home at 16 to get away from his father who was a bit of a bully.  His two sisters both left home before the age of 20 leaving just his youngest brother, the baby of the family at home until he married at aged 26.

[Mermaid]

Is your H also a high achiever, Glimmer?

[BonBon]

This is very interesting indeed.

My H was adopted as an infant, just a month or two old.  Never seemed to have any problem being adopted.  Loving adoptive parents though stern in some ways and not demonstrative.  That said, they are solid, giving, good parents.  He is the oldest.  They then adopted another child, a girl.  After that, they conceived a child who was very ill and died at age 5.  My H was around 10 at the time and once cried to me that his parents lost their only child...which I of course explained was untrue...they had him and his sister.

At age 30, his biological mother contacted him and with his parents blessing, he agreed to meet her.  She said she was 16 when she had him and did not want to give him up but was forced to.  He met his half brothers and realized he was so much better off having been adopted by his parents.  I never thought he had any issues about this until I confided in my MIL about his MLC and she mentioned that he always said "my mother didn't want me".....so yeah, there was an issue for a long time and I just never knew it.

I think my H felt grateful to his parents as if they did him a favor.  I wonder if any of this has bearings on him MLC.  He is constantly saying "I'm better than everyone" while he winds up in tears...translation:  severe inferiority....it's so sad.

In some ways he is a high acheiver and not in others.  He didn't put effort into school but started his own company at age 20.  Moved from the East to Hawaii by acquiring a rent free apartment in exchange for landasaping at 23...brave move.  Started another company while married to me which alas has not worked out and I think one of the catlysts for this crisis. 

Bonnie

[Glimmer]

Mermaid

My H is a high achiever.  He has always been ambitious, very competitive and very determined in all aspects of his life.

For the six years before he moved out he held down 2 full time jobs and studied part time for a university degree in social studies with politics gaining a 1st class honours in May 2009. He always set himself very high standards and never wavered from the goals he set himself.  Sometimes there were just not enough hours in a day for him and he never seemed to be able to relax.

Since MLC he has focused his energy on sport. He has taken to long distance running and is training for another marathon, and pushes himself to the point of exhaustion and does not like to be beaten at anything, and is ruthless even if it is swing ball or games on the Wii with his daughters.

He always seems he has to prove a point and hates to show weakness. He is more conscious of how toned his body looks now than he ever was.

[Mermaid]

So do you recognise your H in the article, Bonnie and Glimmer?

The problems arise from a defective sense of self that they think they will find in the marriage, that is through "mirroring, merging, and holding" which is to do with how the partner reinforces the self image of the other through sensitive attunement and affection. But as the article points out, this is an almost impossible task.

Therapy is difficult because the men don't trust any therapist enough. The article finished with an outline of some treatment difficulties:

The problem in the therapy of these men is the creation of a therapeutic alliance. Where there has been some semblance of attachment figures, the person is able to engage in a therapeutic relationship, however erratic. There are often interruptions and the therapist should expect several flights from therapy before a therapeutic alliance is formed. Flexibility is important in these cases. However, where there have been virtually no attachment figures, therapy is not possible because the person cannot trust the therapist enough to engage with him/her. In those cases, the acting out, addiction, or somatization may increase and can end tragically. These men do not tolerate too much regression or loss of control in a therapy. Therefore, psychoanalysis is not the treatment of choice for them. They require more containing and mirroring than what psychoanalysis offers, hence psychotherapy is more appropriate.

[UNHAPPYPUP]

Hi Mermaid:

Great post!  I read that same article a while back while web researching and it fit my H to a tee.

He is the youngest of four and was a very high achiever - lettered in a few sports, Valedictorian, nice guy... but no matter what he did or how he well he "performed" he couldn't -and still can't- bridge the gap of his parents' emotional distance, which then became physical distance, which still remains today.

I think that has a lot to do with my H's struggles.  It is quite sad actually.  He knows it, too.

I read something else the other day which I thought was pretty interesting.

His gravitational pull toward solitude is almost his learned default comfort zone.  IMHO I think humans are designed to seek out the comfort of others, but being that he was alone a lot, and even emotionally alone when within his own family, it is difficult for him to reach out and form a true strong attachment.  Being alone is his environmentally learned default.  It is what he is reverting to in his time of stress. He has achieved his own business, a beautiful home and family, and still he isn't happy and he can't figure out why...hence his journey continues.

I also read that when some people are younger, people similar in profile to who we are describing (high achievers but with childhood/adolescence somehow interupted) they have a constant self-talk that tells them they are special. It is a good thing that they think they are special when they are young - it is  employed as a defense mechanism, and a safety that keeps them up and going and striving no matter what their circumstances.

In adulthood it is the same isolating confidence that they sometimes regress to, but it comes out inappropriately.  That is why they become oh so difficult to live with at times - braggers...spenders...larger than life personalities...callous, selfish...even the low energy MLCers in their own regard. Perhaps that is one reason their responses seem so foreign to us.

Food for thought.

Thank you for sharing.

-Pup