[Trustandlove]

  As hard as it is not to add our own feelings or opinions, any of that is seen as manipulation and control by our spouse. 

This resonates with me. I really do believe that for me, at least, it really is necessary to let go of my own hurt feelings when dealing with him, to make sure that I speak neutrally.

Please don't get me wrong, that doesn't mean not setting boundaries or rolling over and giving him everything he wants.  It's rather HOW something is said, rather than the what.

I think the way RCR put it was that we can't change how they respond, but we can change what they respond TO. 

Charging neutral, I think the term is. 

I hope that makes sense. 

[Mitzpah]

Although I was accused at BD of being a 'manipulator', that is not who/what I am. So, in a way, it is easy for me to stand back and observe.

What I have learnt from here is to validate  and I think this has helped me to keep quiet and not offer my opinion on his actions which I used to before
I think my readiness to give him my opinions was what he perceived as manipulation, as pointed out here.

I am with Xyzcf, the only way I can affect my h. is by praying for him and showing him consistent love through my actions when in contact with him.

[Trustandlove]

I will add here that I spent quite a lot of time in the first years (before the forum existed...) trying to influence things, trying to say things, to explain, to do all sorts of things.

It doesn't work. 

[Mermaid]

I will add here that I spent quite a lot of time in the first years (before the forum existed...) trying to influence things, trying to say things, to explain, to do all sorts of things.

It doesn't work. 

I think a lot of us have done that, T&L. The pain is so great, we think that there must be something we can do!! We may start by crying and begging (I know I did), then we learn that it's about their pain, their unresolved issues, so... we try everything:
Love them more, love them less, create distance, try to close that gap, work on ourselves to become a lighthouse and guide them back to us, or trust god to bring them back.

All of these are understandable, and all have a fatal flaw... our objective is still to influence them. We cannot, and to do so, no matter how indirectly, is manipulative.

The hardest thing to do is to let our MLCer go, completely. That doesn't mean ignoring them (although we may need space), or being unkind, unresponsive, etc. It means realising that we are not responsible for them, have no rights over their choices. It means not obsessing over them, and living our lives without focusing on them, and being happy without them.

The greatest opportunity that this crisis gives us is independent growth. We are responsible for our own happiness, not our spouse. The sooner we see that, the more we grow. The less we think about them, the more we do other things that are important in life, the more we grow.

Of course we should set boundaries so we are not abused. 

Of course we can consider ourselves standers if we choose, meaning that we will rebuild our marriage in a healthy way when and if we get that opportunity. But we cannot count on that. There are no statistics about how many MLCers come back. If anyone tells you none of them do, they are lying (we know some cases... ). Likewise, if anyone tells you that most of them do, they are inventing. There are no certainties, and even if there were, no one could predict if our errant spouse would be one of them. Yes, the uncertainty feels like it could kill us. I know.

So we must let our MLCer go. Work on ourselves, completely, with the intention of improving only ourself. It will benefit us, and everyone we live with, but our MLCer might never notice. If he/she one day does notice, that will be a new chapter. But if we live our lives scheming what shades of NC will affect them, or obsessed with when they are coming back, or whether they will notice our changes, we are not living our lives at all.

Opinions and comments welcome.

[Songanddance]

So we must let our MLCer go. Work on ourselves, completely, with the intention of improving only ourself. It will benefit us, and everyone we live with, but our MLCer might never notice. If he/she one day does notice, that will be a new chapter. But if we live our lives scheming what shades of NC will affect them, or obsessed with when they are coming back, or whether they will notice our changes, we are not living our lives at all.

Agree totally - bit of a challenge as my H still at home nearly 10 months after BD but I'm busy GALing, fab career, brilliant therapist and TBH H is just a lodger, cycling to and from OW  but I just carry on as much as I can without him.
I will not include him in my plans for now because this is my life - not his. Mine and I owe it to myself to say with my dying breath - I lived a good life and I loved every minute.

[Mermaid]

So we must let our MLCer go. Work on ourselves, completely, with the intention of improving only ourself. It will benefit us, and everyone we live with, but our MLCer might never notice. If he/she one day does notice, that will be a new chapter. But if we live our lives scheming what shades of NC will affect them, or obsessed with when they are coming back, or whether they will notice our changes, we are not living our lives at all.

Agree totally - bit of a challenge as my H still at home nearly 10 months after BD but I'm busy GALing, fab career, brilliant therapist and TBH H is just a lodger, cycling to and from OW  but I just carry on as much as I can without him.
I will not include him in my plans for now because this is my life - not his. Mine and I owe it to myself to say with my dying breath - I lived a good life and I loved every minute.

Absolutely brilliant! At first it is easier to have them at home, we don't face the devastation that LBS face with vanishers. But it is harder to detach, harder to work on ourselves, and harder to GAL because the situation looks on the outside like it hasn't changed.

So thank you for showing the way, S&D.

[sleepless]

So frustrating living in same home, sharing daily responsibilities, and watching them destroy what was a good family. It is very hard not to try to make it stop.

[Albatross]

I have simple answer on question in this tread. Whatever we do or not do we actually affecting their crisis. We can be detached completely and still affect their crisis. They are emotionally detached and wanna freedom bu they are actually attached on their old life, means us.

I believe if we are attached on them we prolonging their crisis.
If we aren't attached we also have affect on their crisis because they are attached on us but wont admit that. Case when we defend our boundaries.
Point is that we should live GENUINE our own life without making plots to teach them or make them or push them. If we do that, then we are still attached but wont admit that.

So, whatever You do You will affect their crisis.

[Strongwind]

Is it really better when they are vanishers? I don't think so. If feels as if you had a unreal life, memories are there but one feels as if he is living in a witness protection program. Isolated and cut off from the life and person who was your only family in the US. The old life with the man who shared it with you has vanished and one can't reconcile the fact that he is not dead but still alive somewhere living as if it never happened. Most of the times I'm still thinking I'm living with him in my head. The denial is automatic after this trauma. A vanisher leaves with doubt, insecurities and totally destroys our perception of what one believed life was.

It's easier only because they are not interacting with you personally but that is sometimes worse. Being ignored as if there is no feelings whatsoever is worse than arguing or monster behavior. It says: You mean nothing to me and never did because I'm better off without you. than It means that H has no attachment to his past and that leaves a big black hole for the LBS. It makes one question everything and everyone.

My H has stopped communicating with me unless it's practical matters. He wont even answer to my "how are you"" He started that when I came back from Europe in October from visiting my family. I believe that the OW is involved in his decision. I don't have control over what he does and who he heeds to...but I have control over my life....but what is my life? it's hard to figure out now and make sense of it all.

Great thread...thank you.
((hugs)) SW

[Voyager]

Mermaid
I'm so glad you have started this thread because for me the self focus, self reflection part of our lives is what is the most important. Our spouses make choices and yes they are still functioning, not incapable human beings. They are making choices that hurt us, tear our lives apart but still they are choices made however difficult to accept by us.

We cannot nor should expect to control another, or want to make them bend to our will. Even though every rational part of us screams out no this is madness…still we must accept that our spouses have the right to order their lives in the way they think they want to. That doesn't mean we agree….we too have the right to argue with that, to put our point of view but ultimately it comes down to finally accepting that for now, possibly for ever, they have made a choice and we for our own sakes will need to have acceptance of what that brings but ensure that our lives are not forever blighted by it….that part is our responsibility.

For me I do not want to "entice"…"make" somehow influence another because it is what I want…tempting though that is. I did try to do that, I believed I could. Finally a point is reached where that struggle has to stop.

I believe we have to accept things as they are, not as we would want them to be. That is hard but worth the effort. I have no ownership of my H, he owns himself and his actions. Depending on how this all goes he will either feel accountable to himself or not. I can only behave in a way towards him that I can account to myself for and not feel lacking. With respect, but with distance, as he has chosen.

I'm sad when I hear that success for an LBS is only measured in terms of reuniting. For me success is feeling able to be, to live whatever happens. To have looked at myself, understood myself more closely, even at times painfully, and then be able to stand up free. Free of need and want, free of expectations and free just to be myself.

I used to be scared of really letting this all go, of imagining a time when feelings fade and I no longer felt the need to be longing and wanting. But it is happening and at times I feel wobbly about it but really that is my old fears doing the talking, my old self wanting, understandably, to hang onto a possibility that makes me feel safer somehow.
It is hard to live alone, it feels scary and in the early days nigh on impossible.

But I do live alone, a thought that at times can still feel surreal but increasingly it is familiar and there is joy in it and sadness too. My H is his own person and has made choices to live in a way he feels is better for him. I can rationalise that and label it and explain it away and some of those explanations will be accurate. I think some of those decisions have been made using distorted thinking, feeling and logic but still they are his.

I can spend years hanging onto his actions, endlessly turning them over, continually defining myself and my future by what he did over 4 years ago, or I can try to move away from that and accept what has happened and learn resilience. Accept his choices and not wonder if those choices will change. That is a matter for him and I will not make myself wait or feel pressured to hang onto feelings just in case. If they leave me, they leave me.

but what is my life? it's hard to figure out now and make sense of it all.

There may never be an answer to the question, Strongwind, or not a complete answer anyway to what life is all about in the new world we inhabit. But that is actually ok. Even in my old life I didn't really have the answer to everything…just thought I did 

Much love
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