[Mermaid]

So, our spouse is in MLC, or so we think. We've found our way here to this forum and it gives us hope. We learn that this may be a stage, and there is a future which is less bleak and devastating than the one we are going through.

Unlike other sites on MLC, this site gives us things that we can do. We can detach, get a life, learn to live our lives as if they are never coming back, set boundaries, go dark or black so we don't have to deal with the monstrous things they say and do.

We use the stages here as a guide to where they are in their process, and although RCR has given approximate timelines, she has always said that we cannot know how long our own spouse will take, or even if the solution is happy ever after.

So, with time, people talk of nudging their spouse through the tunnel, etc. as if they could really affect the crisis of the other. As if we can affect them in some way.

I don't think that the objective of our actions should be to try and affect them. What we do is to protect and improve ourselves (and our children). If anything we do is intended to get them to react, it is manipulative and controlling. Time and time again LBS on this site have been reminded that going dark or black is to PROTECT OURSELVES.

On the other hand, sometimes LBS have made a move to stop their MLCer having access to them until they stop their abuse/ affair etc. These are boundaries. Setting these SOMETIMES has the effect of waking up the MLCer to what they might lose. Sometimes it has the opposite effect. The point is, whatever we do has to be the right thing for us, and not because we think we can control the other.

Our behaviour can affect those around us. Communication techniques (active listening, validation) can improve mutual understanding (but is not always possible). Being happy, content with ourselves and our lives, is inspirational and attracts others to us. But we are most able to affect others when our motives are pure.

Moreover (this has been said elsewhere), most of us are not qualified to know whether this really is a MLC. There are other explanations for behaviour change, depression, affairs, or bad behaviour. The strength of this site is in its sage advice on how to behave, which is good no matter what the cause of our spouse's behaviour.

So, no matter what we think is wrong with our spouse, no matter what stage in MLC we think they are at, our actions should NEVER be aimed at controlling them or manipulating them for our benefit. We shouldn't even act like that with our own children, for whom we are responsible, and much less so for another

Some people think they can or should try to push their MLCer along. This is ultimately dangerous because we don't know the outcome and a solution for one is not necessarily a solution for another, and is a controlling behaviour. It's also a loss of the opportunity to work on ourselves, the most important aspect of all.

[xyzcf]

Many, many years ago, at the start of this "crisis" a priest who I am close to told me "Love must be free".

No matter what the "diagnosis" is for the breakdown of my marriage, I cannot, nor would I want to even if I could, force someone to live a life that they do not want.

I believe that my husband has always been ambivalent about marriage, children, family life versus having the "freedom" to do as he pleases. He has told me, and I believe this to be true, that he has prayed to have feelings for me and he apparently does not have the feelings that are needed to remain married to me.

This may be MLC script, or it may actually be true. Perhaps leaving our marriage was the most honest thing that he could have done, feeling the way he does. For those feelings are very real.

What I think the LBSer can do, and RCR writes extensively about this, is to show their spouse unconditional and agape love, if the LBSer wants their spouse back someday. Now, more than ever, he must see me as I truly am, not pretending to be something that I am not. He must know and accept xyzcf, her good points and her bad points if a marriage between us is ever going to work. I have no control over what he wants in life.

Any "techniques" or "interventions" to coerce him back into my life would be totally wrong IMHO. The only thing that I personally consider to be a valid method to be used, is to pray for him to have a change of heart. I believe in prayer, I believe in miracles and I believe that God would want our marriage to be rebuilt. So, I place my worries, my fears, my anxieties and my desire to "do" something, anything to change this empty place, in God's hands.

St. Monica prayed for 16 years for the conversion of her husband and son, St. Augustine. I do not put a time limit on how long I am standing, for I have already answered that question and it is the right answer for me.

Thank you Mermaid for opening up this discussion that all we can do is to work on ourselves, to embrace life fully, to find joy and peace and if we want, and they someday exit the "tunnel" be willing to forgive and work together to build something new.

[summer progress]

So true... You can't fix someone else's crisis.

What I found in the articles to be spot on was validation. I listened as a caring friend and validated what he was saying. As hard as it is not to add our own feelings or opinions, any of that is seen as manipulation and control by our spouse. They truly have to get there on their own. They have to make their own mistakes which are 100 percent their own choices. If we actively try to push and prod, no matter if it is with good intentions, they may do the opposite because we think that way so they think if they do what we are saying, they are giving in to our manipulation a again. Their rewriting of history has them thinking that they have always done what we wanted instead of making their own decisions. We make mistakes along the way, just like they do. It is like dealing with a rebellious teenager who thinks you are the parent trying to stifle their independence.

Until they see we don't need them and are not making their choices for them, they actively blame us, the one who cares the most. My H said it was my own independence and his realization that he wasn't being respectful with me along with realizing that he was hurting everyone in the family, that finally brought him out of the fog and to stop compartmentalizing. This was something he had to do on his own and figure out on his own.

He hated my boundaries, but I told him they were to protect me. If he chose to go against that, it was his choice and his responsibility. He hated hearing me tell him that it was his choice and his responsibility, but after a year and a half of being blamed for his choices, I had enough and was in a place where I was no longer scared of his reactions or what the outcome would be. The kids and I had protected his feelings for long enough, and I wasn't going to be that way anymore. It took a lot of me figuring myself out to get there, as well as dealing with my own FOO issues.

You live, you learn.

[justasking]

We must also trust the process our MLCers go through. There is no short cut no diversions only straight through the middle learning as they go along. As a development stage we can’t manipulate them nor push them through as Mermaid says. That inevitably works against us as we feed into their justification etc to leave. I learnt very early on that H had to find peace and calm when he visited home as that was the opposite of what OW offered him. Don’t get me wrong. That doesn’t include pursuing and I am most certainly emotionally detached from his bad behaviour as he tries to move forward. He also gets the time and space this journey demands.

Throughout this journey I see a man in emotional turmoil standing on the abys and then pulling back with the help of OW. He hurts and is hurting as he sees his whole world change and not for the better.

What we as LBS must understand too is we have our own journey to complete. The old marriage has things in it that we really don’t want in a new relationship. Having an affair is totally the MLCers choice and a bad one. But two were in the marriage and there will be aspects that we fed into and allowed to grow. Often these areas are hidden until we start to move along our own journey. As LBS a lot of us got lost in the wife and mother title and role. We lost who we are. As our H/W go on their journey then our time has come to find ourselves again and become who we want to for us not our H/W. Remember happiness is within. It’s not titles or positions in life that make us happy. It is the love of the people around us whether family or friends.

If we have a faith then it is also time for that to evolve and deepen as God guides us and supports us through what can only be described as the most traumatic episode of our lives through abandonment, cheating, lying, manipulation and blame. He is there in the dark of the night and the brightness of the morning.

OP always says time will become our friend. Initially, like all Newbies, I never believed that. But now I see that without this journey I wouldn’t be who I am today, happy and content with the person I have become. I pray H gets there too.

Good discussion Mermaid. Thanks for bringing it here 

[superdog]

Just one other thing to ponder on when we look at the influences in the crisis is that of the OP. No matter how much of a band aid label they are given here on this site, they are influencing our spouse.  Manipulating and controlling is what they do and I don't believe our spouse needs a second person. They will work that out in time.

I have often thought before I open my mouth, what is my motivation here and nine times out of ten I have ended up shutting it again, because my motivation was about me and me only. That took time to work on that one I admit.

My h already believes that he has lost everything, but it makes no difference. Nothing is going to sipped up his change of life other than himself. We are merely collateral damage and the sooner we accept that the sooner we can breath again.

Sd
X

[Thunder]

I have a question.  I read, understand and agree with all that has been said.  It has been over  3 years since B dropped.

My x has not had any affairs or girlfriends.  I know he was actively looking for a long time, checking out dating sites, etc. but it just never happened.  I don't think he does that anymore. 

The longest we have gone without seeing each other is 2/3 weeks..and that was a year ago.
Anyway, my dilema is we see each other almost every day.  Get along like we did when we were first married.  My X goes no where without me and we enjoy each others company.

He has falling into a depression for months and seems to be working his way out of his crisis a bit, but has a long way to go.  Still has not looked inside for answers.

Isn't there EVER a right time to ask a few questions?  Nothing major...maybe like, what do you feel our relationship is?  Do you feel just a friendship towards me?

I have done everything I can to have no R talks with him over all this time, but I'm starting to feel the need for some kind of "light" conversation.
Is it crazy to want some kind of answers from him now?  Sometimes I truly feel I am just wasting my time wondering if this will ever go anywhere.

I have been asked out a few times but always felt it was not fair to another person when I still have hope and still love my (x)husband, but I'm not a young woman anymore.

I'm probably not explaining myself very well.  I guess I'm just wondering if anyone thinks there IS a time to push things a bit or should I just bite the bullet and keep my mouth shut?

I'd appreciate any comments or advice.
Thunder



 

[justasking]

merely collateral damage

From my point of view I was adamant that I didn't want to be collateral damage even in the depths of my despair at BD. I knew I would stand up, move forward and live my life for me.

But you are right. There is collateral damage that most of us couldn't avoid, mostly financial.

[xyzcf]

Thunder, I have reposted your question and replied to it on your own thread. I hope this is ok. I think that this being a discussion topic is more for our input into whether or not we can do anything to influence the outcome of their crisis, not so specifically for asking a question about your own situation.

[crazyjourney]

Nooooo!

Pretty sure I dragged my h out in the very early stage back in 2005, I don't regret it in that my sons were younger and it meant he was around until they were young adults but really I do believe they must go right through that damn tunnel and best left to get on with it.

Looking back life continued just fine after he came back after 8 or 9 weeks away but I can see now that also there was still replay behaviour going on, maybe mildly but it was there.

At times I felt we weren't connected completely, I even had wondered myself what it would be like with another, but being a moral person I wasn't about to go and find out, I think I could feel a slight lack of something, attention or whatever I couldn't put my finger on it.

I can of course see it all clearly now, yes he was good fun to be around but there was the underlying childish stuff that was happening which I wasn't recognising but it was building a very slight wedge, we weren't clicking emotionally like we should have been, I only see that now.

The worst was of course in the bedroom, I thought I was going off him myself, course I loved him to bits but what almost 50 yr old wants to be with a teenager in the bedroom.  Have to say I like romance not a bloomin marathon lol. Sorry if that was too much information, it wasn't all bad some good infact but, well no thank you mainly.

I am romance low lights and candles person, not a porn star, if you get my meaning.

Anyway let them get through or they might not be done is my motto.

And where is mine at the moment, oh yes he just moved house again not long after another holiday, oh well!!!

x

[leftylulu]

Nope. I've tried a couple times a year for 3 years via text, it doesn't work.

Once I stopped trying to interfere or manipulate (such an ugly word but it's true) the situation, the better I felt. What it actually did once I stopped was helped me let go. I am no longer attached to an outcome.

Life, for me, is uncomplicated, simple, and fulfilling.

I would still love to see him come back but my happiness is not dependent on him coming back. If I want my fairy tale ending he will come back already healed, or like we are meeting for the first time. I'm sure that's what it would like anyway after 4 years and counting with NC. I'm certainly not the same person as when he left. Who knows, he may not like once he met me.

He didn't leave necessarily not liking me. He told me 2 days prior, after his third attempt to come back, before he disappeared for the last 4 years, that we were perfect for each other. I agreed.

That was then, this is now. I've changed a lot of my behaviors, not my core being, maybe he won't like me. It doesn't really matter anymore. I like me and that's all that matters. Most people I run into really like me and the ones who have been with me through all this love the new, improved me.

So going back to "should we try and affect their crisis", nope, it only holds us back. I don't think it changes anything with them.

Take care,

Lulu