[Ready2Transform]

Hoss and I were (are, at least for me) lifelong musicians. His tastes went to the one genre I didn't like (and he never did prior) around BD, so when it comes to that, I know it's one area where he and I will always have "our songs." So many great concerts, records (glad I still have the whole collection), days spent just absorbing everything we could listen to or play. The one thing the OW couldn't manage to destroy.

[a]

Hi

The reason why i asked the question about why we take comfort/justice/whatever it is for us, in knowing that our ex is unhappy with OW is that -right or wrong- i have come to question this thing we call love.  After reading many books i have come to realise that love is not an emotion but rather a state of mind.  Love has no conditions. Love is an act of kindness.  Love does not take anything personally. So if this is the case we should still be able to love our MLCer in spite of the hurt they caused - idealistic i know but that is the true act of love. 

It was when i came to this realisation that i started to question if i ever loved my ex because like most of you i wanted justice and even revenge in those moments of sheer anger - i wanted ex to suffer the heartbreaking pain he not only caused me but my family who accepted him as a son and a brother.

I remember in the beginning before reading these books and coming to any realisation about love, everyday i would ask the question "where did the love go?".   I was asking this of God/universe/the greater consciousness.  And then one day about 18 months after BD while driving my car the answer suddenly hit me - it felt so surreal almost like the proverbial ask and you shall receive.  And boy did i receive my answer.  And that answer was "the love was never there"  it was an answer i didn't accept at first - i fought it tooth and nail and for a long time went into denial. 

But after much reading and brooding i came to accept the answer.  There was attachment, there was definitely co-dependence, there was affection but love - NO.  Not only did ex not love me but the fact that i wanted justice, that i wanted him to suffer meant that there was no love in me for him.  The sad thing is that once i accepted this fact, ex texted me one day to say he regrets that our marriage had not continued and that it was a good marriage (funny because up till this text message ex had said he had been miserable for 13 years of our 14 year marriage).  He texted these words 8 months into his marriage to the ow.   

I never replied to his text - there was nothing to say (i'm not convinced of the sincerity in those words) and anything i would have said would just have been hurtful to him.  Because the sad thing is while he may have come to the realisation that we had a good marriage - something that i had kept saying for a very long time - i had reached the realisation that i am not so sure we had a good marriage - i had become very accommodating in my fear of loosing my ex - and because of this for a long time our marriage revolved around his needs, his happiness - it became all about him, him, him - at the time i did not realise it - i just felt i was being the supportive wife - however i now realise what i had become - a prop to my ex's happiness or lack thereof. There was absolutely no love from him and to be honest i am beginning to suspect i may have been married to a narcissist but i am no therapist and cannot tell for sure.

I also came to realise that in our marriage i never expected ex to make me happy i understood that happiness comes from within - all i wanted was to share my life with ex but to him i was the sole source of his unhappiness - he even came right out and said "i no longer made him happy" and i remember my reply at the time was "that's an unfair burden to put on some-one - happiness must come from within you".  After that of course i went into extra supportive mode trying to encourage ex to take on hobbies he loved etc etc and still he wasn't happy!!!! Eventually he found ow1 or should i say ow1 and many ow he was cheating on ow1 with - although he finally married ow1.

I'm not so sure i buy into the "MLC" - i just think that we all deal with the negativity that comes into play in our own way and that our ex's chose to deal with their unhappiness by throwing the people closest to them under the bus.  This points to nothing more than the value they place on relationships and people - which is very little- and this is why the LBS is expendable.  The LBS did not see this quality in their ex because we were relating to them from our perspective, from our concept of "love", honour, empathy and kindness -  in that we place much more value on the people we care about and would never entertain the actions of hurting them is this way.  My ex hurtful ways did not only come from the betrayal and abandonment but also the many cruel words and deeds that followed without any provocation.  My ex was capable of a level of meanness i would never have believed him capable of and this is just as much a apart of him as is his sense of humour or his intellect or his acts of kindness.  However he made the choices to act with unkindness and not because he was experiencing a MLC - it is a part of who he is.

take care

[Thunder]

That's some pretty deep thinking there, moment.   

I'm not sure I exactly agree but you certainly could be right.  Who knows with any certainty?  Not me.

If what you say is true then what about the spouses who haven't been Monsters?  Who haven't been cruel?
Mine had some anger in the beginning but never said hurtful things to me.  He has been decent through the whole thing.
Was never mean or vicious.

So did he love me but maybe fell out of love or did he have a crisis? 

I guess none of us really knows why this happens to some people.  It could be some of these MICer's aren't really Micer's.
Maybe some of them are just showing their true selves.  Maybe some really are just cold, cruel people.  Maybe some really did never love their spouses enough and loved themselves more so it was easy to walk away and not care.  Maybe some actually WERE unhappy.

So many if's and maybe's.  Bottom line is we may never really know.

I remember reading one woman saying she realized that she had been a b!tc# and was working on it.  Well maybe it was too late.
Her H could really have been miserable with her.

[LisaLives]

moment, I hear all you are saying, and not saying, and feeling.  We all struggle with all of it.  There are so many philosophical and ontological and moral and ethical questions in what we go through.  But, I think love is grace, it is a gift freely given.  I think I loved my H and I think you loved yours. 

But, I agree that I don't think they loved us, but not for any evil reason, simply because only those who are given love or grace can give it to others, and I think that is what is wrong with MLCers.  I think, at the heart, they never truly loved, for whatever reason.  I know a lot of people here differ, but that is how I have reconciled it in my head and heart. 

I did love, but I loved a man that didn't exist.  He was a sham, a shell, and then when he showed his true self, there was nothing left to love.  So, for a while, I did hate, and want justice.  I wanted to him hurt as I hurt, and her, too.  But then I realized that just as they are not capable of love, they are not capable of that kind of pain.  Then I could let it go, and let them go.  I don't forgive him as much as I have come to accept him, and her, for what they are and what they have no ability to know...  And I feel sadness and compassion for them and my kids, and hers.  I don't have to wish them well, I don't have to continue to love a man I never knew, and certainly not a woman I have never met, but I wish them no harm, and that's about the best I care to do.  I have too many other people that need my love and grace, and yours too, so don't squander it under ill feelings!  Love and light, ll

There is no safe investment, for to love at all is to be vulnerable.  Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly be broken.  If you want to make sure of keeping it intact, you must give your heart to no one, not even an animal.  Wrap it carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries; avoid all entanglements; lock it up safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness.  But in that casket — safe, dark, motionless, airless — it will change… It will not be broken; it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable.  The alternative to tragedy, or at least to the risk of tragedy, is damnation.  The only place outside heaven where you can be perfectly safe from all the dangers and perturbations of love is hell.  I believe that the most lawless and inordinate loves are less [destructive] than a self-invited and self-protective lovelessness…  We shall draw nearer to [what we seek], not by trying to avoid the sufferings inherent in all loves, but by accepting them… throwing away all defensive armour.  If our hearts need to be broken, and… this is [the] way in which they should break, so be it. What I know about love and believe about love and giving one’s heart began in this."
--CS Lewis, The Four Loves

[peevee]

Attaching, Moment. You are describing my relationship with my X and him to the tiniest, painful detail. I also had this thought few months after BD. I was in total bewilderment - how can this happen? How can someone just stop loving me? And then - realization - he never loved me in the First place! It was all fake, from the beginning (after infatuation phase).

And yes, creating a family was his attempt to make him happy. Not us. He is not aware of this, on the contrary, he thinks he did everything for us, and got almost nothing in return.

He has built a dream home, dream vacation home, he had a picture perfect wife and children. Only, we weren't perfect, or not as he imagined us to be. And we didn't make him happy. Just the opposite, we became a burden, responsibilty - kids were loud and demanding, wife was aging, wearing jeans and baggy pants instead of high heels. He tried to make himself happy with "family" project, but once it was finished, it didn't give him the satisfaction he expected. And I hated him for making me and my kids part of his project, which was then so lightly abandoned.  When he was leaving me, he said - I love you, but love is not enough. He doesn't believe in unconditional love. I dissapointed him. Didn't match up his expectations.

Do I love him? I don't know any more... I Know my pain is horribly real. But is it because of my ego, fear, shame or love?

Once, when I saw how miserable he is, I even wished that he finds happiness with somebody else. That was a moment of unselfish love. But it was only a moment. Most of the time I am angry at him and myself. 

[MyBrainIsBroken]

I was just trying to caution MBIB that he should be careful thinking kittens and cubs play the same ;-).  Kittens usually want more and expect more...  Love and light, ll

Thanks for the warning but the discussion is purely academic at this point. The vow I took was until death do us part and we're both still alive. We were married in a Catholic church before God, our family, and our friends, and I don't believe the state has the power to end our marriage so the divorce my wife is pursuing is meaningless.

My experience is similar to Hawk's. I've taken care of my wife financially our whole marriage and I'm in much better shape than she is physically even though she's 3 years younger then me so I expected that I would be taking care of her physically as well. That's one of the things that really upsets me about this is knowing that she's sick and I can't help her. One of her medical issues is that she has iron deficiency anemia and I learned yesterday that it's severe enough now that she's been getting blood transfusions once a week for the past three weeks. And my older brother's taking care of his wife now as she is starting to show signs of early onset Alzheimer's. So we're not the norm either.

I can honestly say that I've never wanted my wife to suffer, nor have I ever thought she was consciously trying to hurt me. I've felt sorrow for her and I do believe she's going through a crisis and that we had a good marriage before her crisis. I believe this crisis has changed her persona but not who she is and I will never doubt my love for her and I don't doubt that she also loved me. I also believe it's possible others have had different experiences.

[OffRoad]

What makes anyone think that wanting to see justice done and means not loving someone? There was a 17 year old young man who brutally murdered a 10 year old girl. His mother had him turn himself in when she discovered what he had done, because justice needed to be done. Do you think for one minute she didn't love her son?

Love is different to different people, just like everything else in life. Love allows room for anger, grief, or pain to be expressed and released. It doesn't say that just because I want you to know the hurt I feel, I don't love you any more.

I'm sorry if you don't think you ever loved your xH, moment. I'm not sure that is true. I think that once you no longer loved him, you simply forgot that you once did, the same as our MLCers have.

I often wonder, if we are all responsible for our own happiness, why bother being with anyone at all. We should all be happy in our own little bubbles. But that is not true life. In true life, we all affect one another in many ways. Other people can make us unhappy. It's what we do with that unhappiness that we control.

[Ready2Transform]

It's very possible for us to rewrite history and reframe our past relationships in order to cope and have closure (and it works both ways, because we can overly idealize the marriage in order to validate standing for it, too). It's human nature to want to make sense of something that makes no sense. Sometimes just accepting that this makes no sense but is happening anyway is the best choice, so we don't give it all more analysis than it needs. Detachment.

[peevee]

Offroad, I agree. We are not saints, we can be angry and even hate, it doesn't mean we don't love them. Hate and love are close- it means caring about somebody passionately, in a good or bad way. I Know I have stopped loving him when I stop thinking of him.

Lisalives - I love this...thank you for this Quote.

The only place outside heaven where you can be perfectly safe from all the dangers and perturbations of love is hell.

Ready, about rewriting history, I do it every day in every possible way. Yes, trying to make sense out of something it doesn't have any sense. Better go back to screenwriting, here at least I have control over my story :-)

MBIB - I love your devotion and faith. You really Know how to love.

[Songanddance]

I also came to realise that in our marriage i never expected ex to make me happy i understood that happiness comes from within - all i wanted was to share my life with ex

I too had this belief and I still do. I was brought up in a family where grudges were pointless - even though my mother unwittingly said things to me to hurt my self esteem -both parents taught me the value of love and I mean unconditional love.

he even came right out and said "i no longer made him happy"

Ironically H said something similar and OW's H said to my H (yes it was a weird triangle for a few weeks in which OW and her H were separated although he was still living in the house). OW's H said to my H " You are welcome to her - she has told me I can't make her happy so I have given up trying!"

Not only did ex not love me but the fact that i wanted justice, that i wanted him to suffer meant that there was no love in me for him. 

Disagree that this is proof of no love in either of you. You are hurting and when people hurt they seek revenge, justice and anger. It's the same principle as the seven stages of grief and is always a reaction in a traumatic situation. I wanted OW to suffer and I wanted H to suffer and still look forward to the day when what he has done will hit him like a ton of bricks - does this mean that I don't love him - no it means I am a realist about what he will have to endure because he knows like all MLCers know, that what he has done is wrong. The difference is whether I will be there when it does happen.  Because I love myself more and that is why I see no point in harbouring the anger - it will only destroy me.

However he made the choices to act with unkindness and not because he was experiencing a MLC - it is a part of who he is.

Was he mean and acted with unkindness throughout your whole married life then?  Did he do acts which were cruel and destructive when you were married?  If so then perhaps yes I agree it is a part of who he is. MLC is not the true person emerging - it's the fear of the shadow that emerges. It is a black depression that engulfs and the shadow emerges with a warped sense of entitlement and selfishness that is unparalleled.  My D has depression and suffered really badly in her late teens. She was capable of so much nastiness and did exactly what suited her regardless. Did I think she didn't love me even when she screamed in my face that she hated me. NO. Did I think that I had never loved her - no. I did think for a while that I couldn't love her and that's the difference. However I did love her, I stepped back and left her to it.  Now, even though she still has bouts of depression,  she is a changed person with a huge heart and much love to bestow on all. We have a great relationship.

I Know my pain is horribly real. But is it because of my ego, fear, shame or love?

Probably all three. Let the pain work its way through and out of your system.

If you want to make sure of keeping it intact, you must give your heart to no one, not even an animal.  Wrap it carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries; avoid all entanglements; lock it up safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness.  But in that casket — safe, dark, motionless, airless — it will change… It will not be broken; it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable.

This is brilliant LL . H was destroyed as a teenager by witnessing his father's sudden death. He has never been able to mention his father without getting very very emotional and shuts down (FOO). However is this perhaps what happened to my H?  Perhaps he has not allowed his heart to be broken again and so whilst he has loved - he has loved with caution?

What makes anyone think that wanting to see justice done and means not loving someone?

Exactly!

It's very possible for us to rewrite history and reframe our past relationships in order to cope and have closure (and it works both ways, because we can overly idealize the marriage in order to validate standing for it, too). It's human nature to want to make sense of something that makes no sense. Sometimes just accepting that this makes no sense but is happening anyway is the best choice, so we don't give it all more analysis than it needs. Detachment.

That's it - LBSers get paralysis of analysis because we are unable to get into the mindset of our MLCer. We thought we knew them - we discover we didn't so we make it a mission to analyse and fit all past episodes into little boxes because it's easier than accepting the mess that they are in and have left us in.  It is also part of the initial journey we are on where we try to validate ourselves because we think we have to.

My T is brilliant and always says when I make a comment about H or myself or someone else - "What makes you say that?"  Note it is different from "Why do you say that?"   What makes you say that is- do you have clear 3 dimensional evidence that is irrefutable and that if challenged would be true for other people too?

Now I ask myself when in doubt - it has really helped me detach.