Author Topic: Interacting with Your MLCer Resources: Standing Actions  (Read 27387 times)

Offline RollercoasteriderTopic starter

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Interacting with Your MLCer Resources: Standing Actions
« on: April 17, 2010, 01:33:18 PM »
« Last Edit: May 12, 2011, 10:14:29 AM by Rollercoasterider »

Offline RollercoasteriderTopic starter

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Re: Resources: Standing Actions
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2010, 07:01:36 AM »
Al Turtle: http://www.alturtle.com//
Check out all of the articles. Here are just a few.

Validation: The Skill and the Art
http://www.alturtle.com/archives/530

Diversity and PreValidation: A Chart
http://www.alturtle.com/archives/157

Diversity and Pre-Validation: "The Two Icebergs"
http://www.alturtle.com/archives/169

PreValidation: More Thoughts
http://www.alturtle.com/archives/159

The Road to EMPATHY
http://www.alturtle.com/archives/1275

What To Do When She (He) Leaves
http://www.alturtle.com/archives/1326
« Last Edit: January 29, 2014, 12:29:25 PM by OldPilot »

Offline RollercoasteriderTopic starter

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Re: Resources: Standing Actions
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2010, 07:41:36 AM »
Boundaries
Setting Boundaries Appropriately
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=9777

Begin to Set Personal Boundaries
http://www.oprah.com/spirit/Begin-to-Set-Personal-Boundaries_1

What’s Wrong With My Boundaries?
http://www.drirene.com/boundari.htm

Offline StillStanding

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Re: Resources: Standing Actions
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2010, 05:19:46 AM »
Don't Give Up
Do you feel like giving up on your marriage? I've been counseling people with marital struggles for over thirty-five years. And, often they have no hope. They are living in very difficult marriages. I am under no illusion that I can give a magic formula to bring healing to all such marriages, but I do believe that in every troubled marriage, steps can be taken by one partner, that have the potential for changing the emotional climate between the two of them. The first step is to make the decision not to give up.

The Problems with Divorce
There are three radical and negative approaches to a troubled marriage: suicide, homicide, and divorce. The first two are considered unthinkable by intelligent, mentally healthy people. On the other hand, divorce is often seen as a humane way of ending the pain of an unhealthy marriage. Some have divorced two, three or more times and are still in search of a happy marriage. 

When I did the research for my book: Desperate Marriages, I discovered that divorce does not solve problems; it creates problems. Problems that never go away. The answer is not found in running, but in learning. Learn what is behind your spouse's bad behavior. Then you can ask God for wisdom on how to respond. You can be a part of the solution.

Dr. Judith Wallerstein has studied the topic of divorce for more than 20 years. Here are her conclusions. "People want to believe that divorce will relieve all their stresses - back we go to square one and begin our lives anew. But divorce does not wipe the slate clean...Few adults anticipate accurately what lies ahead when they decide to divorce.  Life is almost always more arduous and more complicated than they expect."

Generational Effects
When parents divorce, typically children feel intensely rejected. Children get angry at their parents for violating the basic rule of parenthood - parents are supposed to make sacrifices for children, not the other way around. Because we are creatures of memory, we may carry the pain of broken relationships for a lifetime.

After the divorce, most parents plan to continue good relationships with their children, but parent-child relationships are forever altered by divorce. As adults, they often fear that their own marriage will fail. And in fact, the divorce rate for 'children of divorce' is higher than for those whose parents stay together. By continuing to work on your marriage, you could actually save your children much relational baggage.
 
From Bad to Worse
Does divorce seem like the best alternative to you? If so, I hope you'll read my book - Desperate Marriages. Divorce, unlike death, does not end contact with the other person, especially if you have children. Nor is divorce a pretty picture financially. Research indicates that 73 % of divorced women experience a decline in standard of living.

One wife said, "Our marriage was bad, but our divorce is even worse. I still have all the responsibilities I had when we were married, but now I have less time and less money."  The effects of divorce linger for a lifetime.

Are you in a desperate marriage? If the answer is yes, do yourself a favor...read a book, talk with a counselor or pastor, share with a trusted friend, but refuse to give up.
Me: 45, Her: 40. Married 16 1/2 years, together(-ish) 20.
Status: BD 8/25/09, she moved out 8/28/10. No talk of D.

Every day is another chance to get it right.
http://www.vachss.com/mission/behavior.html

"Counting days won't buy us years" —Wings by HAERTS
"Forgiveness means giving up all hope for a better past."  —Lily Tomlin
"When we commit to our lovers, we implicitly promise to forgive them. There is no other way we can live with someone for better or worse or until death do us part." —Dr. Frederic Luskin

Offline StillStanding

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Re: Resources: Standing Actions
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2010, 02:46:58 PM »
I came across this today; this is something that I recognize in my wife and her family, and to a lesser extent in myself and my family:

http://www.thebowencenter.org/pages/conceptec.html
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Emotional Cutoff
The concept of emotional cutoff describes people managing their unresolved emotional issues with parents, siblings, and other family members by reducing or totally cutting off emotional contact with them. Emotional contact can be reduced by people moving away from their families and rarely going home, or it can be reduced by people staying in physical contact with their families but avoiding sensitive issues. Relationships may look "better" if people cutoff to manage them, but the problems are dormant and not resolved.

People reduce the tensions of family interactions by cutting off, but risk making their new relationships too important. For example, the more a man cuts off from his family of origin, the more he looks to his spouse, children, and friends to meet his needs. This makes him vulnerable to pressuring them to be certain ways for him or accommodating too much to their expectations of him out of fear of jeopardizing the relationship. New relationships are typically smooth in the beginning, but the patterns people are trying to escape eventually emerge and generate tensions. People who are cut off may try to stabilize their intimate relationships by creating substitute "families" with social and work relationships.

Everyone has some degree of unresolved attachment to his or her original family, but well-differentiated people have much more resolution than less differentiated people. An unresolved attachment can take many forms. For example, (1) a person feels more like a child when he is home and looks to his parents to make decisions for him that he can make for himself, or (2) a person feels guilty when he is in more contact with his parents and that he must solve their conflicts or distresses, or (3) a person feels enraged that his parents do not seem to understand or approve of him. An unresolved attachment relates to the immaturity of both the parents and the adult child, but people typically blame themselves or others for the problems.

People often look forward to going home, hoping things will be different this time, but the old interactions usually surface within hours. It may take the form of surface harmony with powerful emotional undercurrents or it may deteriorate into shouting matches and hysterics. Both the person and his family may feel exhausted even after a brief visit. It may be easier for the parents if an adult child keeps his distance. The family gets so anxious and reactive when he is home that they are relieved when he leaves. The siblings of a highly cutoff member often get furious at him when he is home and blame him for upsetting the parents. People do not want it to be this way, but the sensitivities of all parties preclude comfortable contact.

Example:
Neither Michael nor Martha wanted to live near their families. When Michael got a good job offer on the East coast, both of them were eager to move east. They told their families they were moving away because of Michael's great job offer, but they welcomed the physical distance from their families. Michael felt guilty about living far away from his parents and his parents were upset about it, especially Michael's mother. Michael called home every weekend and managed to combine business trips with brief stays with his parents. He did not look forward to the phone calls and usually felt depressed after them. He felt as if his mother deliberately put him on "guilt trips" by emphasizing how poorly she was doing and how much she missed seeing him. She never failed to ask if his company could transfer him closer to home. It was much less depressing for Michael to talk to his father, but they talked mostly about Michael's job and what his Dad was doing in retirement.

[Analysis: Michael blamed his mother for the problems in their relationship and, despite his guilt, felt justified distancing from her. People commonly have a "stickier" unresolved emotional attachment with their mothers than with their fathers because the way a parental triangle usually operates is that the mother is too involved with the child and the father is in the outside position.] In the early years, Martha would sometimes participate in Michael's phone calls home but, as her problems mounted, she usually left the calls to Michael. Michael did not say much to his parents about Martha's drinking or about the tensions in their marriage. He would report on how the kids were doing. Michael, Martha, and the kids usually made one visit to Michael's parents each year. They did not look forward to the four days they would spend there, but Michael's mother thrived on having them. Martha never said anything to Michael's parents about her drinking or the marital tensions, but she talked at length about Amy to Michael's mother. Amy often developed middle ear infections during or soon after these trips.

[Analysis: Frequently one or more family members get sick leading up to, during, or soon after trips home. Amy was more vulnerable because of the anxious focus on her.] Martha followed a pattern similar to Michael's in dealing with her family. One difference was that her parents came east fairly often. When they came, Martha's mother would get more worried about Martha and critical of both her drinking and of how she was raising Amy. Martha dreaded these exchanges with her mother and complained to Michael for days after her parents returned home. Deep down, however, Martha felt her mother was right about her deficiencies. Martha's mother pumped Michael for information about Martha when Martha was reluctant to talk. Michael was all too willing to discuss Martha's perceived shortcomings with her mother.

[Analysis: Given the striking parallels between the unresolved issues in Michael's relationship with his family, Martha's relationship with her family, and the issues in their marriage, emotional cutoff clearly did not solve any problems. It simply shifted the problems to their marital relationship and to Amy.]
Me: 45, Her: 40. Married 16 1/2 years, together(-ish) 20.
Status: BD 8/25/09, she moved out 8/28/10. No talk of D.

Every day is another chance to get it right.
http://www.vachss.com/mission/behavior.html

"Counting days won't buy us years" —Wings by HAERTS
"Forgiveness means giving up all hope for a better past."  —Lily Tomlin
"When we commit to our lovers, we implicitly promise to forgive them. There is no other way we can live with someone for better or worse or until death do us part." —Dr. Frederic Luskin

Offline OldPilot

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Re: Resources: Standing Actions
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2010, 05:21:16 AM »
The Lighthouse

Your spouse is in huge conflict. The good news is; and the truth is that they are totally incapable of a healthy relationship with anyone right now. The competition that we believe exists with the Other Person is a shallow, empty reflection of God's light in this world. It is empty and lonely no matter how good the rush.

Their actions are actions that they themselves do not like in themselves right now. Though the need to go back again and again and attempt to prove themselves wrong or right is strong, they do not like what they are doing.

Their actions toward you, the children, the Other Person, and themselves, as well as God, keep them from engaging in any type of real interaction with any real depth and truth.

All they offer are misguided attempts to fill the void that has appeared in their life. Yet the filling is way too fleeting to sustain them and the truth is with them each night he or she lies down, regardless of whom is next to them.

They are the living cliche of 'no matter where you go, there you are.'

They are lost to themselves.

And you stand at that point of being the lighthouse home, even though they create the waves that block their vision from seeing the beacon.

You become the lighthouse. You fill your home with light, calmness and sanctuary.

Just visualize yourself as a lighthouse.

You offer them glimpses into that sanctuary at every chance you get. You invite them toward it. Let them know it is there as much as you can in a most subtle way.

You cannot trust them right now, but you know that, so they can't hurt you right now. They will spend great energy to convince others differently...but you know better.

You show the path by also protecting the children from their painful actions. Set clear boundaries that the Other Person is not part of your children's lives...without Love Busting. Offer alternatives that let them see the children, but be clear that the Other Person is to have no access to them. You fill the children's lives with stability. They deserve it and need it more than anything else.

Do not discuss or powerstruggle with them on irrational movements. Seek out and validate the rational ones with lots of praise for when he or she chooses correctly.

Your spouse is very lonely and sad right now, but that is ok. No one can stay very long in that chaos. Remove yourself from any aspect of participating or adding to the chaos, and eventually they will see that you are the only one who stood with clarity and reason when they needed it most.

Be the lighthouse.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is from the DB website.
I do not think we have this posted anywhere but if we do please, make me aware of it and I will remove this.

I also belive this is written from someone else not on the DB website.

EDIT - I just found the source of this post.
This link is from 2004

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2131647&page=1

Edit - 9/2/2013

edit 06/07/2014
Just found another link for the original time this post was made.
Here
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1105248#Post1105248


I am going to add to this as more research has unearthed another post from this lady
______________________________________________________________
Some of the most painful posts to read here ....is the confusion and turmoil of betrayed spouses....

those post D-day days weeks and sadly months in which so many things are left unanswered, unaddressed and emtpy...

be still.....

In our turmoil and chaos and the gnawing need to fix and address.....bs bring into their hearts more pain and crisis....

be still...

There was once a saying I read somewhere that went something like to really ever understand someone else we must crawl inside of them and feel the gentle beat of their heart....

easier probably for a BS to move a mountain than to grasp and work from that realm....

but be still...
each moment of stillness you can buy grab or gobble is a moment in which you are free from the pain and free from the fear..

fear of doing the wrong thing
fear of saying the wrong thing...

the goal is not marriage rebuilding at any cost...
the goal is guiding yourself to a place of stillness...no matter the outcome....

the anatomy of a WS is that they changed and molded their own thought processes so that they could engage in a affair....

they did this....
they did this....over time and in a way in which they can barely see the reality of this...but they did do it...

be still

it takes time.....

too many posts are from BS with unrealistic EXPECTATIONS which will harm you...

it is unrealistic to think that the thought processes needed to engage in such vile actions....vanishes over night

working through affair issues takes time...gobs and gobs of it...
and if you find yourself standing in a place of demanding change and specified responses, introspection, apologies, and instant change...

be still

for you are causing more grief that you need to burdon....

they did this...and they must undo this...

will they?
the truth is we don't know..
but to ever be a whole person again they darn well better...otherwise they carry their chaos on and on..and in the end no BS needs to burdon that.....

WS, though hard to see when they have used you as a weapon are very very damaged inside.....

they can not face that damage...and since that damage is YOU the BS...they often can not face you..

so they continue to waffle and wallow in the path that brought them to this place...

the way of rationalizing and justifying downright no two ways about it dispicable behavior acts....

force them to the face and process at once..
they will withdrawal
they will deny
they will retaliate

or even worse they will self destruct themselves....

be still....

don't force responses and actions and answers...be still and know that their non-responses , non actions and non answers ARE their answers....and you can hold them accountable to that

be still
and then make your moves....

ARK^^

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2106490&page=1

Offline stayed

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Re: Resources: Standing Actions
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2011, 02:08:56 PM »
CAUTION: SYMPATHY/ READING TOO MUCH INTO MLC'S DEMEANOR

I'm going to say something here that many of you may not like.  I am going to issue a CAUTION about reading too much into your MLCer's demeanor, withdrawal and sadness.  I agree, I would not want to be an MLC, it must be a horrible place to be.  That being said, I want to warn you all about being TOO SYMPATHETIC to their plight. 

An MLCer is very manipulative and will play you very effectively.  My h would sound sad, be tearful, begging me to wait and let him "sort this out" (his fav. phrase during that time), then return to OW and act like EVERYTHING in his world was wonderful.  MLCer's ARE sly as a fox.  They in most cases are afraid of being alone, very few of them move into apartments on their own, you might have notice, they almost always move in with OP, parents, single sibling or a friend who encourages them to pursue their own happiness.

In most cases they try very hard to keep us "attached" to them.  Why else the touch and goes?  I do not believe that most times that is an "attraction" to us, or an "attempt" to maintain contact with the kids, I honestly believe that is simply to give us enough hope to continue hanging on.  I have discussed with my h many times, how he rationalized his behavior in regards to the children.  He has told me quite clearly, that he honestly believed that because they were blood of his blood, that he would be able to reconnect with them at any point, later on.  Surprise, surprise, it has been almost 6 yrs. now and the children are still not TOO TRUSTING of their dear old dad.  I know he resents this, although he doesn't say much, but I hear the bitterness in his voice at times when he is discussing them. 

I do agree Justasking that we confuse them.  That is for sure, afterall, we are the ones who have been "dumped", we are the cause of their unhappiness, we are suppose to be the ones that are MISERABLE and instead, we grow stronger and more confident as the time goes on.  That really does confuse them and also gives them pause for thought.  I also think it makes us very attractive to them.

All that being said.... I still believe they want us to be miserable.  Not in the sense that they are being mean but in the sense that we are suppose to be pining for them, missing them terribly and instead, most of us grow and learn, becoming strong, confident and capable. 

Then they resort to being sad and lost looking.  My h did that REALLY well, oh my, the guy should have been an actor.  He sucked me in so many times with his sad, lost, confused puppy dog appeal, it was scary.  It was when I stopped reacting to that, that he pulled his head out of his a@@ and got busy fixing the damage he had done.

So please folks.... be careful.  Don't let them rope you back into their drama.... or you will be doing this 10 yrs. from now.

hugs...


 
[/left]
Married 39yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
"We believe marriage is sacred, but it is not our job to save marriages; it is our goal to empower each of you to save your own marriage."

Stayed Husband Letter
The Hero's Spouse Mission Statement
Survival Instructions for Newbies
The Mentor Program
LBS SCRIPT

Offline HeartsBlessing

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Re: Resources: Standing Actions
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2011, 10:53:51 AM »
The time for the "coming down hard" on the MLC'er VARIES in each INDIVIDUAL circumstance.

In my case, this didn't come until my husband recommitted to the marriage; and I saw that he was still in a pity party; it was STILL all about him; and had nothing to do with me.

Before then, the Lord instructed me to help him along, be his friend; and continue to wait  for him to navigate through to the point of recommitting to me, and our marriage.

And at that time, because I had feelings that he was unwilling to help me with; he got the sharp side of my tongue more than once.

But that was ME..push too hard too soon; and they will run; but you have to be in a place where you KNOW that you will be fine no matter what happens to be able to take this possibility.

You always NEED to set boundaries against bad behavior, that is a given; and VERY different, but the other things sometimes will have to wait; as the MLC'er's ARE fragile; and prone, because of all the head work that is going on within their minds, to a nervous breakdown.

Mine got very close at one point; and the Lord drew me back to keep from pushing him off the edge...I did NOT want to have to deal in that way; knowing IF he had gone over, I would have been at fault for pushing him before he was ready.

For some reconciliation can start as soon as the OW/OM Withdrawal is finished, but for some, it comes later; depending on their strength.

But for some; it doesn't happen until the MLC'er recommits to the marriage, you'll know when this happens...follow your intuition to the letter; as you KNOW your spouse better than anyone, except God.

As each person is different, each crisis is different; what one will do, another won't.  What works for one, will NOT work for another.

Bear the above statement in mind as you go along in each individual situation.  :)

Just so you know, it has been a rare circumstance that I have been instructed to advise a poster to come down hard on their MLC'er...that didn't come until later on after recommitment happened for the couple in question.


 
Our marriage survived His MLC, with the help of the Lord.
I have learned that true strength is built through the trials we endure.
There is hope as long as you love your MLC spouse, and, are willing to learn the  life's lessons that are set before you as a result of this crisis.

Offline HeartsBlessing

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Re: Resources: Standing Actions
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2011, 12:10:44 AM »
          NO "BARGAINING" OR GETTING OUT OF ACCOUNTABILITY FOR THE MLC'ER

NEVER, EVER, allow the MLC'er to "bargain" with you to try and get out of accountability for their actions toward you and the marriage, adultery is included, if committed.

Some or most MLC'ers will ask the LBS sometime during the crisis; this seems to come not long after OW Withdrawal, or even during a period of rebellion,  if they as a couple can "go back" to what they once were; or they will say they don't want to talk about it, or they will get very upset when the subject is brought up,  and either directly, or INDIRECTLY threaten the LBS with leaving or divorce, if the LBS doesn't "drop" the subject and let  the MLC'er "off the hook".

So sorry, but this can't happen; if this is allowed to be swept under the rug, and never faced; and worked through; it is only a matter of time before the crisis will pick up where it left off; and the unrest begins again; possibly another affair, or multiple affairs..and this second time will be worse than the first.

So, if they are not forthcoming in making themselves totally accountable, and try what I outlined above; they may not say the same things, but you'll know what they are getting at, give them a little time, THEN;  start pushing, and hard...remember to stay calm, and do NOT throw the MLC'er out; let them go to do what they think is best; keeping the decision on THEM.   There is no need in further feeding their justification for the bad treatment of the LBS; nor is there any need in giving them something else to blame the LBS.

Remember you are bringing them to accountability for THEIR actions, and you have a right to make them accountable to you....by the time you get finished with them, they will wish they'd been more forthcoming, or they will leave on their own...THEIR CHOICE.

This is a time when you are willing to lose all in order to possible regain the respect of the MLC'er; and hopefully, starting to regain your marriage in the process.

IF you push them into a tantrum; let them throw a fit; some people need to get angry in order to get better; and this can clear their heads, but under NO circumstances, do you need to try and calm them down...stand back and watch; engage them as they scream about unfairly they are being treated, and all that THEY are going through, firmly remind them that YOU did NOT start this; THEY did.

Now, as I've outlined, this could go several ways, amongst others, they may go on and leave; or they will breakdown, OR they may argue it out, throw their fit; and nothing is said until later on when they make the decision to recommit to the marriage. 

The last was what happened to me...my husband had said some things before hand that I didn't know were "red flags"; as in wanting to "go back" to what we were before..and I wasn't having it..he got pissed and stomped off.

It wasn't long before the Lord began to deal with me to bring him to accountability, simply because he was trying to avoid his issues and not face them. In that process, he was trying to leave behind what he had done..it was one thing if I did something and he didn't like it, but he had walked all over me, not only during the crisis, but during the whole of our marriage; and all of it had to come out...and a boundary was set that day.

There came a time when I was instructed to begin; and my pushing resulted in a tantrum; and an ongoing fight that lasted three days; he threatened to leave, but I took the wind out of his sails, by reminding him that it was his decision; and he knew where the door was IF that was what he wanted to do......after that was all over and done, he began to try and get close to me; I was instructed by the Lord to allow him to do that; also to wait on him.

After a period of time, he broke; recommitting to the marriage; but was STILL trying to get out of total accountability; and I unloaded on him a week or so, later.

In time, I pushed him into remorse; and a true facing of what he'd done.....I was at a time when I didn't care if he left or stayed; but if he stayed, he would respect me.

I had almost forgotten about that but a post I was reading reminded me of this..and it did happen to me. :)

There's a time to have sympathy for their pain; but understand, they KNEW exactly what they were doing when they were dishonoring their marriage; and if they can't "man" or "woman" up; and face their wrongs; being accountable in that process; something is very wrong; and it must be addressed by the LBS, before too much time passes.

Don't be fooled by their attempts to make nice; when you KNOW they are trying escape this necessary time in the MLC...and they will try...just so they don't have to face themselves...what they don't know, is they would be making a grave mistake that would definitely result in a reoccurence at a later time, of the original crisis; and who knows what kind of damaging behavior would start that second time..as it would seem to be a running type behavior of some sort.

In their minds, it would seem to be this way; they got "away" with it once; why not again?

If this should happen to you, you want to stop it at the pass the first time.
Our marriage survived His MLC, with the help of the Lord.
I have learned that true strength is built through the trials we endure.
There is hope as long as you love your MLC spouse, and, are willing to learn the  life's lessons that are set before you as a result of this crisis.

Offline stayed

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Re: Resources: Standing Actions
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2011, 03:59:55 AM »
HeartsBlessing, this is PERFECT!  You have said it ALL!  Please ladies and gentlemen, listen well to these words, as they are the whole POINT of this exercise.  ACOUNTABILITY! 

This is about RESPECT, HONOR AND LOYALTY!This is not about who controls the remote for the TV, without respect, honor and loyalty.... YOU HAVE NOTHING!

Please remember this. 

Excellent post heartsblessing, dang, I wish I had said this... hehehe. 
Married 39yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
"We believe marriage is sacred, but it is not our job to save marriages; it is our goal to empower each of you to save your own marriage."

Stayed Husband Letter
The Hero's Spouse Mission Statement
Survival Instructions for Newbies
The Mentor Program
LBS SCRIPT

 

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