[Rollercoasterider]

I wanted to wait before posting again in order to see what you all had to say without influencing you with any comments from me. Thank you so much! It feels good because it seems to me that in general you have a great grasp of the articles and my vision. I apologize if I do not include your comments directly--as there were so many that I loved and just too many to include here.
Anjae said she believes that the roots are biochemical and then I think Ready2Transform made a good point about this being a chicken or egg sort of thing--are the roots biochemical or social/FOO? Yes, there are biochemical commonalities, but there are also FOO or social commonalities. he question then becomes what about those who don't have an MLC? Which commonalities do they share and what are the odds of such a person having an MLC? Of course some who check off either the social or biochemical checkboxes will not have an MLC, but are there greater odds for the biochemical checkboxes or the social/nurture/FOO checkboxes? I don't know if there is actual data comparing these or if studies have even been done--serious studies, so we're just guessing here and my vote goes toward more social roots if one even has a greater influence than the other. BUT I am firmly with the idea that it is not one or the other, but a perfect storm of many things--biochemical, social... Here are some great gems from your posts on this:

Mermaid
Biochemistry is always intertwined with the person in social context. There is no separation.
and
Neuroscience cannot explain the interplay of the developing self in the social world.


Onward
there are both physiological and psychological influences on MLC, and that chemical and FOO issues can live in harmony
Or maybe Disharmony as the case may be!


Ready2Transform
I think biochemistry does play a role (chicken or the egg as it may be), but I think having a grasp of the big picture from every angle is important, including commonalities of FOO, life patterns, psychology, etc.


MyBrainIsBroken
childhood trauma or severe longterm childhood stress coupled with a lack of secure attachment and other related FOO issues could and probably would lead to the situation that I knew as MLC.


Trusting
I believe it is rooted in childhood and FOO issues, but there must be something more to it


OSB
at BD, everything I observed about my H screamed mental health issue in bold caps. So perhaps it's confirmation bias, but I tend to accept the neuropsychological etiology of MLC. But that doesn't negate accepting the philosophical etiology (we are after all a bag o' biochemistry that thinks, and that uses metaphor to understand our own thinking organ), the philosophical explanation made it possible for me to comprehend the fracture with identity/reality that is MLC.


Medusa
I also consider MLC to fall under the umbrella of a personality crisis triggered by a person's inability to address FOO issues. I don't discount a chemical/hormonal imbalance; however, my experience is that FOO issues play a crucial role.


The Lighthouse
I tend to think MLC is a perfect storm of chemical/hormonal imbalance, FOO issues, stress/coping issues (addictions), depression, and a crisis of identity.


Of course this is not meant to be the focus of my articles. This line of thinking, while interesting academically and perhaps helpful for us to Accept the Process, is focusing on MLC and not on us--it's not Mirror Work! So it was so exciting (and a relief) that several of you mentioned how the Mirror Work articles were crucial or important--a few noting that this was not something you realized or accepted until later as I have also predicted will be common.
Here is what I consider my official definition of MLC:

A normal life event—midlife transition—that has escalated to crisis levels of emotional and mental turmoil. Denial and attempts to avoid the transition yield crisis which manifests through avoidance, regression and depression and in the context of a marriage often includes infidelity and separation. MLCers react overtly with outward destruction; whether intentional or not, an MLCer hurts other people in significant ways.

Notice that does not talk about causes or why....nothing about FOO or Biology. The definition is meant to be about how whatever causes manifest--what we see and experience in the way of symptoms/actions. The origins are for bigger picture long explanations that hopefully may aid our understanding and thereby our empathy as well as Acceptance which can help us to move forward from what might (understandably) be a stuck place in the beginning.

So if I believe that MLC is a combination of social and biological issues, why do I spend so much time on the social part. UM, laziness? No not really, but I think the task is just so daunting and thankfully Anjae is doing an awesome job on the biological part. My background is hard science, not Social Science and I think that for me to delve into that side of it I would go deeper than I have time for...a superficial review or understanding would not be sufficient for me and I might not consider my understanding credible at a superficial level and so I guess I avoid it more than anything. Sorry. A few years ago I wrote a blog article reviewing the LBS stress response after Bomb Drop. It was a 5-part series and it took me while to research and write it--and even that article is rather superficial by scientific standards. For me it was an important article for you guys because I wanted to normalize your panic and the setbacks you felt in your confidence as well as give you a biochemical timeline for that portion of your recovery--so if a person is outside of the timeline, they may want to consider seeking additional help or guidance. But for me that also was not a direction that was taking me to where I like to focus in my own studies and to spend more time in that sort of direction (other than occasionally) would take me away from other directions.

Timeline
The 3 - 7 year MLC timeline...um yeah, that is not meant to say that MLC will be over in 7 years--as we have learned as this forum has been around longer and longer. That's also not to say that there are cases of a 3 year MLC and so it is valid to include that at the short end of the range. But I have changed the timeline to reflect our belief that MLC can go longer and yet I guess I'm vague because we just don't have an upper end yet, so I now say 3 to upwards of 7 years.

Re-Reading the Articles.
So many people have said this over the years--that they gain new understandings over the years as they re-read. This is so cool! I'm just the writer and it feels so great that I have created something that is so relevant for you and even more that the understandings can deepen as you grow. I must admit that I too have felt this. For some articles I immerse myself in a topic for weeks and weeks and then move on, so later when I go back to read my own stuff I am learning too. Actually, a few years ago I was looking at a post on another board where the poster had just quoted a bunch of pieces of wisdom she liked. I was reading one of them and really liked it...and then I got to the end and it was by me! Even I am not DGU!

Unconditionals/Grace
Oh YAY! These are one of my favorite topics--especially Grace! The concept of Grace just gets me so excited. I think these are something that are important in general--so remove them from the MLC and/or Stander context. The Unconditionals are meant to be applied in all aspects of life.

I find believe the articles on Paving the Way and the Unconditionals to be the ones least referenced, and increasingly least modelled or supported on the forum and on the board.

I would be lying if I said I disagree with you on this.   These concepts and applications may be the most challenging not just in our society, but for people who have been hurt. I have a belief about how to approach communication where I use things like maybe-language rather than being concrete and I wrap my words in reassurances. Recently I was reading something and apparently there is a therapy based EXACTLY on this concept! I think it was in the coaching manual I am reading, but can;t be sure... I've been reading it at night after everyone goes to bed and I try to highlight the things I want to review...but sometimes a toddler or infant interrupts me before I can do that and now I have spent a few weeks away from that book as I've been (joyfully) dealing with our fruit trees as they need harvesting and so often I am spending that time at night looking up new recipes to handle all of the fruit. So the other day I got out the book and tried flipping through to find what I wanted and couldn't find it...and I really think it was in that book. I may next contact the author and ask about it, because I want more information and it was so exciting and validating to read about an official therapy type that I have already been following without even knowing it! Honestly I've often wondered if  ideas on Maybe-Language see weak to people. I still believe in them, but I can see how people might misunderstand them and especially apply them incorrectly or with a weak position if they misunderstand.

[Anjae]

What is maybe-language?

...but there are also FOO or social commonalities.

There are, but they are much more varied. Stress and depression are more precise commonalities and more present in most MLCer. The FOO and social factors are too different. While it is easy to ascertain that stress and depression, that are specific things are factors common to most MLCers, the FOO and social issues vary so much that it is not possible to say what type is more conductive to MLC.

I am not saying those may not play a part. The social one certainly does since stress does not turn up in a vacuum. And yet, it can be considered and endogenous factor. Stress is a result of life events (as a general rule, and when we are referring to long lasting stress - not the normal short term rise in stress humans have in danger situations that is designated to protect us, in such cases stress is a defend mechanics that can safe our life. This
type of natural response stress is usually called physical stress. - The long lasting stress that affects mood, personality, behaviour, etc is usually called psychological stress and is the most dangerous one. We are not naturally equipped to deal with it. We are not equipped to deal with prolonged stress.

When under long, prolonged stress, our brain and body start to behave in very strange ways, that can even make us seriously ill. The illness can be as diverse as diabetes, always being with a cold or flu, gastrointestinal diseases/disorders, burnout, depression, other mental/neurological issue, heart issues, high blood pressure, etc. Stress is very damaging. It is thought stress  can be a contributing factor to cancer for some (many?). We already know a lot of the not good things stress does, but I think people still do not give as much importance as they should.

Depression can be a result of life events or not. It can be a result of some medical conditions, like thyroid problems, or partum, that do not depend of life conditions. Or it can be endogenous.

I don't know if there is actual data comparing these or if studies have even been done--serious studies

I don't think so. Pretty much no one takes MLC seriously. And certainly not seriously enough to
conduct the many types of tests necessary to have a clear knowledge. If even here in the board there are people MLC exists, or is a thing in itself, it is going to be very difficult to convince the outer world to take a serious interest in it.

The thing with the social roots is that, alone, they would not lead to a MLC. It requires that those roots get to a point where they impact the person to the point of stress and depression to become a problem, a crisis level problem. And when that happens, the problem becomes physiological/neurological. It seems to be more the way a person is capable of handle stress, and that is an endogenous issue, it pertains to how each individual is affected by stress. It has to do how the person's brain takes stress. 

In fact, endogenous encompasses, among others, the person genetics, biology, physiology and life style. Exogenous include, biologic environment, physical environment (as in physics & chemistry), natural -  climate, natural events, social & cultural environment, etc. Since life style is endogenous and social & cultural environment exogenous, it is a little difficult to determine which is which for a MLCer, or each MLCer.

No not really, but I think the task is just so daunting and thankfully Anjae is doing an awesome job on the biological part.

I am, but on the board, not on articles/blog posts level. Neurobiology/neuroscience/biology are Hard Sciences, not Social Sciences. If your background is Hard Science, it would not be difficult for you to get the basic. But I understand that it is may not be particularly funny to write about brain mechanisms. Maybe something simple on how stress affects brain, body, behaviour and the same for depression?

Maybe also a little on adrenaline and endogenous opiates (osb thinks the second ones are also one of the reasons why High Replayers can carry on for so long in Replay behaviour). Adrenaline is easy to explain, as well as the addiction to it. Same for the endogenous opiates. Essentially, both work like any drug, the person has to carry on with the behaviour in order not to get to withdrawal, as time goes by more and more activities (and probably longer) are necessary to obtain the same effect. Until one day nothing will work anymore because there is nowhere else to go, with the exception of overdosing. In the case of MLCers I think the overdose is rock bottom. No Replay behaviour works anymore., the MLCer hits the bottom.

The articles, or blog posts, could be written in a very simple way, no need to get into details of how exactly each of those things affects each particular part of the brain, and, in turn, the affected brain affects the body and behaviour.

Paving the Way and the Unconditionals do not come up so much, or come up less and less, because, as time goes by, many of us have moved on. We are new relationships or marriages, we are single but 5,7,10 years have gone by and Paving the Way for our still out there where the buses don't run MLCer is the last thing in our minds.

It is not possible for some of us, especially those with nasty, aggressive MLCers, to Pave the Way and be in the middle of legal battle with our MLCer. If we try to Pave the Way while fighting to get the best legal/financial deal we can, we lose focus and we may end up doing ourselves a disservice. We only have time to focus on us, not in Paving the Way.

Same for those of us with a MLCers that has been physically violent. The last thing in our mind is Paving the Way. Plus, what exactly is Paving the Way? Paving the Way for one of us is not Paving the Way for another. And when the LBS is no longer interested in reconnection/reconciliation, Paving the Way has no more place. Unless it is for the children, for those who have them. Of for professional reasons, for the LBS who share a business with the MLCer.

As for the Unconditionals, after the anger phase the LBS goes through, I think they are not so difficult. But the LBS has to had reach a point that has allowed for them to be applied.

The thing with MLC is that it causes much more than hurt. It causes financial devastation. Hurt, in the emotional sense, is tough, the break of a marriage is not a good thing, financial devastation caused by a spouse is another level. One that, fortunately, not all LBS go through. Same for being physically abused by the MLCer. In those cases, it is much more than hurt.

I think you still have a very naif, romantic even, view of MLC. Maybe because your husband returned early, didn't cause much financial damages, was not especially nasty or ever violent, and no legalities were involved. The idea of trying to prevent divorces is beautiful, but it is neither practical, nor possible in many cases when MLC is present. Same for reconnected/reconciled marriages, I love the idea, but in most cases it will never happen, for a number of reasons.

As an example, how many in the mentor team remain married? How many are in new relationships/marriages? How many have interest in reconnecting/reconciling? I'm still legally married, but it is pretty much the same as being divorced. All it is missing is the signed divorce paper.

[in it]

I was nodding my head through your whole post Anjae. Eloquently put.

I have zero desire to ever have anything to do with the ex Mlcer or whatever he is again.

The vile nasty things he said. His behavior in general. His disrespect. His put downs. His taking himself so very seriously along with self importance. The control issues, the stalking, the harassment, the anger and the violence will always be the way I remember him. 

And even after going to the emergency room due to his violence. I could not have him arrested.

This one will not change and will only get worse. I have read everything I can about abusive men and he fits all the characteristics.. And checks off quite a few for a narcissist.

The negatives surpassed any positives there may have been. Even if he had been some kind of caring, kind, loving, considerate man? After these last almost 6 years? Forget it.

And all I can see paving the way for is my young adult children.

[Anjae]

And all I can see paving the way for is my young adult children.

That is a good, and valid, reason to Paving the Way.

Regarding stress, from Jed Diamond:

"Stress underlies most of the psychological, social, and medical problems people face in contemporary society. If we can get a handle on stress, we can take care of most of the problems we face in our lives. By some estimates, up to 80 percent of all illnesses are stress induced. Stress-induced illnesses include: heart disease, prostate and breast cancer, depression, diabetes, arthritis, and obesity. By shifting from being at the mercy of your stress to being in control of your stress you can affect a dramatic increase in energy, and as a result you will be less likely to get sick." http://menalive.com/stress/

He has the same idea that I do (that is also shared by Robert Sapolsky, his book Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers is a good explanation of how stress mess us up in every conceivable way), that stress is the cause of many problems of all sorts. I can say from experience that the reason I handled BD and the following times so bad was because I was super stressed.

That being super stressed also caused several types of medical problems, like infections, anxiety, etc. And it impaired my though, capacity of making good decisions, etc.

[osb]

Interesting summary, and very thought provoking. I could envision Paving the Way and the Unconditionals as constituting an effort to not let my partner's MLC turn me into something other than myself. Other approaches advocated on other MLC websites often seemed to involve giving reign to anger and bitterness; that really turned me off. But here was a shiny new way to conduct myself (safely, while distancing) without turning myself into a simulacrum of my ornery, bitter MLCer. Didn't mean I was setting lures for my H to return (lighthouses aren't fishing lines), I actually had no notion that he would, and of course it kind of wasn't about that. But by paving the way as calmly as I could, I could preserve my splintering sense of self, and perhaps my (overly kind?) mental image of myself as not a screaming crazy person. Like saying "Do whatever nonsense you like, H, you can only make me step back from you; you can't make me hate".

But Paving the Way is very emotionally tiring; and perhaps it's not healthy to avoid or sublimate the anger for too long. Also this is only feasible in the context of personal safety, with a non-vanisher. Some on this board didn't/don't have the option.

Anjae, my H had about 5 years of accelerating adrenaline-junkie-hood and emotional dissociation leading up to his MLC - he was so clearly chasing the dragon for his endorphin fix, and BD came literally 3 days after he catastrophically failed to 'fix' himself (drove his body too hard, became ill on an adrenaline trip, limped home sans fix, depressed emotional basket-case for 3 days followed by abrupt stony-faced, shark-eyed transformation). So this relationship between endorphins, adrenalin and oxytocin was something I started reading a lot about....

[Anjae]

I could envision Paving the Way and the Unconditionals as constituting an effort to not let my partner's MLC turn me into something other than myself.

I really love your vision of Paving the Way.

Didn't mean I was setting lures for my H to return (lighthouses aren't fishing lines), I actually had no notion that he would, and of course it kind of wasn't about that.

You are right, lighthouses aren't fishing lines. Lighthouses do not go out of their way to try to bring ships to safety. They are there, solid and strong, shinning their light in the dark to point the path, but they do not move out of their way. And, in foggy nights the ships may not be able to see the lighthouse light. Same with MLCers, when in the fog, they do not see the LBS beaming.

Anjae, my H had about 5 years of accelerating adrenaline-junkie-hood and emotional dissociation leading up to his MLC - he was so clearly chasing the dragon for his endorphin fix, and BD came literally 3 days after he catastrophically failed to 'fix' himself (drove his body too hard, became ill on an adrenaline trip, limped home sans fix, depressed emotional basket-case for 3 days followed by abrupt stony-faced, shark-eyed transformation). So this relationship between endorphins, adrenalin and oxytocin was something I started reading a lot about....

That is very interesting, osb. I think Mr J is on a new low and in need of more fix. He was calming down, cutting on djing. He had even parted with his dj mates that go djing around the world because he was tired and could not keep up. He had also left the big clubs and festivals and went back to the small indie clubs and bars where he had started. But he is back djing around Europe in big places and festivals. Maybe it is a last attempt of Replay behaviour. Maybe nearly two years of not having the fix of the big places and flying around from country to country become too much and he was feeling down and in need of a rush. Who knows. He never seems to go down for good. Bottom always seems to be around the corner, but he always finds something to keep fighting it. 

Mermaid raised an important point on the Is MLC real? -Background to MLC thread - http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=191.msg524852#msg524852 that when psychologists work with someone to help them break addiction they remove stimuli, including social ones. If the MLCer remains within the same social context, even if they want to break their addiction to whatever they are addicted to, it may be very difficult.

[gimlan]

This thread is really interesting and I agree with much that has already been said regarding the unconditionals and paving the way. Early on, I worked a lot with that and I still think much of that work has benefitted not just me (as I have learnt to respond rather than react) even though I'm no longer standing. It does not make sense for me to pave the way back to our marriage for someone who has formed a new family. Actually, doing so, to me would not be compatible with agape (or in my preferred vocabulary, loving-kindness). Imagine, if it would be "successful" - that would only cause more pain to more people. There is no love in that. I have worked hard (and still is sometimes) on not wanting OW or XH to "suffer", not wishing them to "feel the pain" that they caused me and S. In this sense, I have paved the way for S and for XH to be as good a father as he can despite what has happened. If I had given in to the anger, or become stuck with it, then I believe this would have been much harder. Early on I worked a lot on forgiveness, but I was not yet ready for it so I let it go for a while - now I feel that I might have reached it. It doesn't make what he did wrong, but there is no benefit (or, in buddhist vocabulary, it would not be skillful) to linger to his past actions; it would just keep me in pain and possibly harm also others.

Gx