[Ready2Transform]

What an interesting thread! I'm so glad that contrasting viewpoints have been brought up and met with respect. We're growing, fam.

The overriding thought in my view that this thread proves is that time helps us discover what our core beliefs about MLC are individually. And a lot of the confusion we initially experience is brought to clarity once we do have our own understanding of what happened to our lives and where we want them to go from here.

When I initially came here in 2012, I perceived that there were more returns in a quicker amount of time. I perceived it was more of an assumption I could make that my xH would follow the same path I was feeling commonality with from the stories I was reading, and be home in 2-3 years tops as though this were just an episode that was a bump in the road for our marriage. I made financial, legal, and emotional decisions based on this that were not good long term choices (which is why when I was a mentor I told all of y'all to go get a free lawyer consult stat, no matter what!).

But there were less people on the forum then. There were less other forums and programs that dealt with similar issues. Heck, how Google directed us here was different. The research about neurotransmitters, gut health, various disorders, etc had not evolved and mainstreamed to the point it has now and will continue to do. There were as many mainstream examples in the media, like the A-listers and potential politicians nasty women like me don't vote for or who send 'wiener pics' to anyone who will take one (see, I'm bipartisan in my judgmentalism!) who were openly called out for midlife crisis, narcissistic personality disorder, or a slew of other mental illnesses or behavioral problems. In some ways our sensationalist media has done us a square by presenting a platform to start a broader, more evolved conversation about it. But it also means things don't stay the same, even in the big picture.

So in the six years since RCR started this forum, and in the eight years I think since Chuck has returned to their marriage, I'm going to give RCR a pass that her opinion as well has evolved. She's seen a lot of us come through with much different stories while at the same time seen the trauma she went through fade further away in the year view mirror. She's pointed out many times that we cannot use this forum as statistical proof since it's not a scientifically sound sampling of people experiencing an MLC spouse. And the biggie is, this is not a program.

If she had just written a blog in first person narrative with all of the same information from the articles and blog posts, like the old Newman's Own blog some of us read in the beginning, I don't think there would be so much pressure on her to be "consistent" or directive in her advice. Other people were more upfront that they are aiming to guide LBSs like HB, Rejoice Ministries, and Joe Beam on the 'standing' side, and Melanie Tonia Evans on the 'healing' side.

But RCR is just an observer, in my book. She had this experience, and this is what she learned during the course of it. It was easier when there were just a few dozen active members of the forum who could brainstorm on day-to-day activities with an MLCer, but as the scope has expanded there are now a lot of divorced people who really can't just 'hold space' for an MLCer 5-10 years down the road. Hope, of course! But I'm sure we can all agree that not every person is able to detach and live life in tandem with standing, and to encourage them to continue to do so without facing all of the possible outcomes would destroy them. I wouldn't want that on my head.

And there's likely a reason Newman pulled his blog down. His original story was inspiring, but maybe it didn't last. Or maybe they moved on with their lives, and are just a plain ol' married couple who don't want to talk about it any more. We're still very lucky RCR didn't just get tired of this and take the site down.

Yes, it can read as contradiction if you want those original writings to be canon and not progressive. But we have to remember that she is a human being too who, like us, has continued living and growing outside of MLC. Maybe this is the example we should be open to, moreso than just as a means to understand MLC as a concept.

I think Onward raises a very important point about the Law of Attraction and MLC. My faith is such that Christianity and LoA aren't mutually exclusive in my daily routine. Plus, I worked for one famous LoA guru and another not-as-famous one, so I feel pretty well versed in the concept. It is not in line with LoA to mute expectation. Expectation is a pivotal part of the concept.

I also feel that way about prayer. I know God will do what is best for me and in line with what His plan for my life is, but He has given me lots of clues about that along this journey. What resonated with me about RCR's story is that she had a 'knowing', and I did, too. Was my knowing false? No, God does not lie. I experienced many things, including how I found out about the OW, that confirmed what God was putting in my heart and what I was praying for were accurate.

But I know we don't want to set each other up to be hurt again, to be disappointed, or to be played a fool. The only option I can see for reconciling expectation and detachment is acceptance and focus. Accept that God has heard you, then give yourself freedom to focus elsewhere, like on yourself, your work, your family and future. Take care of the 'now', and trust God has the outcome. Sometimes the 'now' includes dealing with the alien spouse in court so you can protect what the two of you built together. Sometimes it means looking at the big picture and accepting that maybe that wonderful day they are 'themselves' again, they might be your best friend, but not your spouse. Or even just a person that makes you smile when you see them at your grandchildren's events, who you are at peace with. Trust that whatever it is, it will be enough. Focus on the peace. If I could share any lesson I've learned from this process on anyone, it's that. Because the lack of peace, when you're going through it, is brutal.

I think sometimes the biggest thing we do 'wrong' here is commiserate. We all have crazy MLCer days. But you can't see positive results from a negative perspective. You have to get out of the shade to feel the warmth of the sun. And that's not to say we 'heal' anyone, but by focusing only on everything we hate, we become just like the society that wants to call us chumps. Even in the worst of times, self-focus can be an improvement over bitter-focus, or fear-focus, or anger-focus. Part of it is part of grieving, but sometimes we stay there too long and fall into it too easily. I'm guilty, too.

Rambling too much now, but even that is easy to do because this site was able to be the foundation but not the key to my deeper understanding of MLC and how it affected ME and my xH. It's okay to not agree on all, because we each have to live our own lives and make our own choices. Thanks to becoming stable because of this site and this forum, I can do that. Thank you.

[Blackhen]

R2R, awesome comment.
My take is that HS is a place of healing rather than instruction - OP's newbie comments are all the instruction required.
I used to take "Trust the process" as meaning the MLC process. But now I take it as meaning my own. And that evolution/reset has definitely taken me quite a long TIME!
RCR's articles are informative not prescriptive and that's as it should be, as there is probably no more likelihood that there is a science of MLC than there is one for culture.
Anthropologists have searched for years for a set of cultural consistencies - out of hope, one would assume. But human beings and their doings continue to defy statistical logic! Yay!!!
I have accepted I am on my own, making it up as I go along, but it has certainly helped to grasp at straws when I've been at my dizziest. There's healing in community (perhaps that's a cultural consistency!) and I'm so very grateful for this site and all the conversations on it.

[1trouble]

I have made a point of not going back and reading other people's views on this, so what I am about to say is based on my initial thoughts on RCR's latest blog and my own thoughts on MLC and me.
THESE ARE JUST MY OPINIONS

When I read this latest update I was a little dismayed tbh........it was like I had bought into an idea and then the very person who started the idea had changed their mind and had thought completely differently........maybe that's harsh but that's how I felt.
It was like when I first came here I had hope but now whoever 'sold' me hope was trying to sit on the fence....

Maybe it was my perception of RCR's 'message' when I first found this site.  I felt, then as if I found hope, I felt in RCR's own story and her articles some explanation for the insane. Maybe its because the original articles were written a few years ago and now as more people join the forum the idealistic, more optimistic view RCR had (based on her own experience) has now changed, I don't know what prompted this latest blog? 

But as someone who is in the midst of this, with a MLC'er who has started divorce I was sad to read this article. I have got so much from RCR's blogs and articles.  In my case her articles on the BP OW and Stockholm syndrome have been particularly true and helpful.  Its also been very helpful to read the words of others who's spouses are in MLC to read the words they used at BD and the things that have been said and done in the MLC affairs, because there is definitely a script, which gives some perverse sense of comfort.

However I feel there are people who find this forum who's spouse is not in MLC.
Maybe they were exit affairs, some with previous history of affairs, not so happy marriages, undetected personality disorders.....whatever........but they are not MLC and they sway the odds, along with breakdown in communication.

My own therapist, with 35 years experience and a neuroscientist had a far more optimistic view of this. 

Also, since this has happened I have spoken to others who have known people who have gone through this and many have reconciled, time lines anything from 1-4 years.

In my opinion it should never be called midlife crisis, this is DEPRESSION first and foremost IMO.

Yes there are also personality issues (conflict avoidance, people pleasing, child hood abuse, abandonment, image problems, identity crisis, developmental problems) BUT ultimately it leads to depression in mid life.

Yes there are LBS's with co-dependency, enabling issues but IF their spouse is in crisis and depressed this didn't cause it, though it may mean they cope differently.

So if we take for granted this is a site supporting those in MLC and if we accept that MLC is primarily depression doesn't it go without saying we should start from a point of compassion (which I know is hard in the cases of abuse) but in most cases it should be what we are aiming at, as this is a mental health issue?
Personally I would ban the term MLC, because its what causes us (LBS's) the most conflict, when we are coming to terms with whats happened.

We think of the spouse in terms of having a midlife crisis as being something they can help, but we would not think that if someone said our spouse was deeply depressed, would we?

Yes I know they go off with an AP in most cases, get very destructive and lash out, but it is depression.  Yes I know there are points where they realise what they have done but its still depression. 

Of course, its up to the LBS how we chose to deal with this, up to our religious beliefs, if we have kids, our own morality, our own wants and needs and belief in our spouse and what the spouse does in MLC.

I don't think there has to be a diminishing of hope, sadly I felt thats what this blog did TBH, especially for those who have been standing for years.

I think its very important for everyone who's spouse is in MLC to understand its about depression and to understand and accept there is nothing they can do to help their spouse, which is what this site is good at doing .
Applying pressure, making them consider our own pain, our own wants and needs, reminding them of what we are going through, what they have done to US, is pressure to someone in DEPRESSION who is trying to get through each day.

For those of us who are dealing with an AP, its tough, bloody tough but they are clinging to this AP as a lifejacket in a sea which is dragging them down.
If we cling to them too, then we are all going to sink, so we have no option but to cut the rope and swim to the shore but all of us have an option to watch from the shore or walk away, that's a personal choice.

As RCR pointed out, we need to do mirror work, to live our lives.  We need to do this in anyway we can, the religious pray, others meditate, we need to be kind to ourselves and fill our lives with friends, family, hobbies and anything that gives us a break from all this angst but as I have seen in many journeys (and my own) this can be a very spiritual journey and an enlightening one.

And we all grow in ways we never expected and at our own time.  There are many who have been standing with great style and graciousness for years, they have not been wilting on the vine, not spent their time in widows weeds.  They have been living their lives still with hope and love for their MLC'er.  I applaud them, because I Think I would be the same.  I love my H deeply, I know he is not well, he is depressed and in crisis and is blowing up his life, our life, but not mine....I live each day, think of him all the time, I go out enjoy each day, because it is important, each day is a day of MY LIFE, a day I will never have back, a day not to give away lightly.  A day that has joy and sadness in it, a day that has trials and hardship and friendship and loneliness.
But I am making a conscious effort to live each day, my MLC h is surviving each day in depression, running and scared and anxious, depressed and lost.

I believe its important to remember that and(unless they are abusive) to maintain some sort of contact, if you want reconciliation, even if its every couple of months (in my case).

Its my belief that MLC brings out narcissistic tendencies but not all MLC'ers are narcissistic.  Many are broken people in depression that would not have the courage, when they come out of this and faced with everything they have done, to approach an estranged LBS.

I believe the person in MLC, as they continue, is more consumed with guilt and shame because as they move forward, and the fog is less dense, they are more aware of the destruction they've caused, so its important, unless you don't want to reconcile, or if they have been completely abusive and/or destructive, they know you are there, somewhere in the background, not propping, not enabling, not waiting without living and not co-dependent, but there (if you want to be).

Then I believe when they come out of this, they would be more likely to make contact, whenever that may be,

Now IF, you have moved on when that time comes, whether that's 1 year or 10 years down the line, then that's what is meant to be, because I believe all of this is down to what's meant to be.

Because its so true the saying if you love someone set them free and if they were yours they will come back....... 

[Phoenix]

As has been mentioned here, moderators/mentors also have varying perspectives. I understand that some LBSs don't want to know in the beginning that it is less likely a marriage will reconcile and that being told that, at the start, may have made some people make different choices. But perhaps some people needed to make different choices, particularly in regards to economic stability for themselves (and any children). Too often there appears to be a fear of rocking the boat or pushing a divorce forward, that puts an LBS in harm's way when it comes to their secrity. Understanding reality from the start, doesn't need to undermine a person's inner resolve or belief that the outcome of your desire is possible. There are many things in life, for which the odds are long, but exceptions still happen. That is a faith that each person must find and hold for herself or himself. It cannot be the responsibility of this forum or the messages here. I understand this is only my view of the situation, but I have been at this a while and am a third generation LBS who has seen many MLC situations from childhood on. I will share with you what I communitcated to other moderators about why I personally believe it's important that this message reach LBSs early on:

This forum is evolving. We know more than we knew when it was formed and it behooves us  to evolve with it. I don't want to dash hope, but a person's faith has to be stronger than RCR's articles and blog posts to survive the challenges of MLC and standing. I've consistently done things in my life where the odds are stacked against me. The "data" doesn't matter if my internal belief is there. It's too much pressure/responsibility to put on the board or on articles or blog posts and, if too much of an LBS's faith and hope relies on such externals, they can too easily be shaken. The point is to have the support to stand as long as it feels right and healthy for each LBS regardless of data and anecdotes. We say to live as if the MLCer is not coming home and to get on with life, so that would indicate a belief that regardless of the LBS moving forward in this manner, a marriage can still reconcile if both people are willing. This shouldn't change by providing a more realistic blog post.

I agree about keeping an honest view of hope alive, but this is not a protective parental relationship. The forum is comprised of adults and it's important we understand the reality from the start. The LBS has enough untruths and lack of trust in our lives, and this is where anger or frustrations can come in, for some LBSs, as time goes on and people feel stuck or as though they weren't given a realistic view from the beginning. For someone like me it feels patronizing, rather than supportive, if I'm not trusted with the reality or am protected from it until someone else decides I'm ready for it or until I realize it on my own after I've already made decisions I would have made differently had I known more.  I have a right to proceed with my eyes wide open from the start.

This is why it's important to have various voices here, because what may feel supportive and sensitive and hopeful to some, may feel misleading, patronizing and infantalizing to others. Some may need to have reassurance from the articles to stand and others might do it even if the odds are long, but they feel called to do so and supported in that decision. People's lives and economic futures hang in the balance here and, while not talking about the lower chances of reconcilation as much in the beginning, may seem the kinder gentler approach on first consideration, that can backfire in the long run and keep people stuck, or from taking protective action, which can have devastating consequences to the LBS and their children. 

Some of the members here may remain standing longer than they might on their own, or do not proceed to protect themselves legally, because of what is said on this board, so what is said as board information needs to be as accurate as possible. Some people take it as gospel, or at least take if very seriously, and make critical, life-altering decisions based on that information precisely because we are grasping for hope when we first come here. It feels a bit like throwing someone a life preserver, but then not also mentioning that it is more likely than not to leak all of its air out before they get safely to shore, so they can consider all of their options along the way. True, a person may be less scared or upset, and more hopeful at the start, but they may also drown because they didn't have all of the information as clearly as they could have.

The healing and wholeness of the LBS is the priority on this site and we are being much more clear, in my opinion, if it's said more directly from the start that the majority of marriages will not permanently reconcile, but that reality also bears out that there are stories of reconciliaiton as well as stories of great happiness and success without reconciliation, and that this is a site for people who wish to stand for themselves first and foremost and for their marriage as long as it feels right and healthy to them and they have protected themselves and their children, including financially.

Peace and healing,
Phoenix

[in it]

That's a wonderful post 1trouble.

Back when I was dealing with the ex both times at BD then D (in 2011) then mine and the childrens the return in Oct 2012 to the second BD in April 2013 this was NPD plus the depression if you'd like to throw in MLC feel free to.

 The abuse of me at about every level was and is unforgivable in the sense that I wouldn't feel comfortable having anything to do with him.Period.

In the mirror work I had to start with forgiving myself for not knowing what I was dealing with. AND for not leaving him and staying gone the first violent incident before he and I got married more than 30 years ago..

 I have looked up what abused women feel are reasons for staying or accepting such degrading treatment and saw myself in several sentences. Then add my own FOO issues..

When the mirror work starts on yourself and you focus on you and not them. I think things start to make more sense. I feel this forum was a great place to vent, journal, reflect and all of that moves us to heal.

Currently trying to wrap my brain around what I feel was wasted time on my part to spend all that time, all those years with someone who didn't care about me or anybody else. And isn't capable of doing so.

So, no there is no stand here.

[Onward]

Such a wide range of thoughtful perspectives! There is so much that has been shared here - so much to think about.

I wanted to cycle back and clarify that when I referred to the inherent contradictions we live with, I wasn't actually thinking of RCR being contradictory. But I didn't expand on that very clearly.

What I was thinking about was the role and influence of time, and how time is referenced here, and how we al live with the duelling realities that time plays.

And I would now add how we make individual decisions regarding how to treat time.
Those decisions are tremendously varied based on the range of values, beliefs and attitudes that we hold as individuals; and the influences, experiences, tools, and knowledge we have developed to a particular moment.

[MoreWillBeRevealed]

The common theme I've read with reconciliation stories and as RCR pointed out, is the woman moved on, improved themselves and balanced no contact with boundaries. These MLCers need boundaries. They are manipulators and it's all about them even when you think they are handing you a bone. I only speak, email, or text with H if it's about our S5, health insurance, or the separation. I do not contact him otherwise or discuss anything else. I don't ask him how he is. The other day he tried to slip into a conversation "how are you doing?" and I promptly told him I had to go--in a cordial kind manner. I've flipped my lid a few times and made an ass of myself but recently am nothing but kind and courteous. Many of the reconciliation stories I've read, the LBS becomes not only a force to reckon with, but also a confident content safe person. When the MLCer has limited contact and boundaries are enforced, the LBS does mirror work and is too busy to even have a conversation with MLCer, the more the MLCer is left to wonder what is going on. The LBS becomes a mystery--like the OW once was. But now the OW's true colors are glaring in their face and the grass isn't greener on that side. In fact, in my case, the grass is a dead brown mess. I think LBS who remain humdrum, clingy, seemingly desperate, b!tc#y have less of a chance at reconciliation. Also, we LBSers need to improve our physical appearance if needed. The last few years of my marriage I rarely dressed nice, never wore makeup, let my hair look like a mess, gained weight, stopped exercising, and because I have health issues sometimes didn't shower for three days. Now I am getting in shape, bought nice outfits and jewelry, smell nice, do my hair and makeup every day, and even got laser treatments (to remove sun spots, broken capillaries, and fine lines) and botox (I did not get it for him, I am doing all of this for me!). I look and feel great. I know H sees all this and is baffled. I am the woman he fell in love with so many years ago, not the frumpy sickly wife he dealt with for so long. I caught him checking out my shapely butt a few times when he was dropping off our S5. All of this helped ME feel attractive and desirable since H stopped having sex with me and withheld love and affection. I am always smiling when I see him. He, however, always looks like he just cried and is not happy. He has lost weight, though, in an attempt to keep OW. He had a fat gut the last few years of marriage. So that is my two cents. 

[Velika]

I think self improvement/adornment/beautification is great but just want to add for anyone already suffering from self blame and regrets, I don't think every or even most LBS looked bad at bomb drop. I think there are some real beauties represented here.

And even if you were -- by your standards -- frumpy, be compassionate and loving to that pre bomb drop self. Most parents have some seriously frumpy years -- if not decades -- and many manage to love each other through them.

[Absolutely Fabulous]

More, it's better in the long run when we take care of ourselves and leave them to themselves. I have found that in my case, hard lines and boundaries really work. I'm also in "ghost mode", so he knows nothing. My kids are Dim and Dark, that helps them with their adjustments as well. My XH is also with a "hot mess", and I do believe in letting them have exactly what they want with the AD/OP.

Not knowing what's going on is the key. It shows that you do have a life, can live without them. I don't believe in punishing them, usually the AD/OP is often punishment enough. Mirror work is empowering and if more LBSers did that in the time they spend focusing on the MLCer, the more calm and peaceful life becomes. Keep in mind that they really believe that: no one else wants us, or that we will always be there for them despite the OP.

[xyzcf]

The importance and value of hope:

For Frankl, striving to find meaning is the most important motivation in human beings. During his time in Nazi death camps, Frankl noticed that prisoners were more likely to survive if their survival had meaning....... prisoners who were able to retain a degree of hope, a reason to live or some vision of the future tended to have a better chance of survival than those who had lost all hope

From The Soul in Anguish by Lionel Corbett 2015 discussing Viktor Frankl's work.

I disagree with the idea that having hope is an impediment to one's healing.

This discussion does not seem to take into consideration the knowledge that we have accumulated about MLC and especially the stories of those who have come through their crisis and what they have said about the time when they were in the MLC fog.

Whatever the "odds" are and I do not see any statistics to support what the odds are one way or another, the importance of continuing to have hope for some LBSers is a healthy way to live happily and with joy. It does not make them stuck, enablers, conflict avoiders or codependent.

We have often used the analogy of being a lighthouse and the work that the LBSer does will allow them to become stronger and capable of dealing with the depression that is at the root of MLC in their spouse.

Life is a continuous journey towards self-actualization according to Maslow. One's life should always be to work towards being the best that you can be, to growing and learning more about oneself and society. This should always be occurring in every stage of one's life.

There are many other studies that look at how hope can actually help people to heal. So taking away people's hope, which is what I feel this blog does, in my opinion is damaging to LBSer's ability to heal.

24 For in hope we were saved. Now hope that sees for itself is not hope. For who hopes for what one sees?
25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait with endurance./i] Romans 8:24-25