[UrsaMajor]

I've hesitated getting involved in this discussion for various reasons but what Offroad said:

As long as that stand, whatever it is, does not stop the stander from living their life, great and groovy.

What I got out of RCRS post was that if being a stander stops you from living your life as fully as you would have desired if MLC hadn't occurred, you might want to rethink your process for standing. Also that while the MLCER needs time, thinking that enough time will lead to reconciliation leads to false hope, that if you can just hang on for 7,10,15 years, the MLCER will come back. You can't believe them back, you can't hope them back, you can't wait them back. You would have to meet them somewhere forward, if there is to be any recconnection at all.

was exactly what I got out of the blog post as well....

Warning: Once I got started, I got on a roll so this is a LONG post....

NOWHERE does RCR say standing is "wrong." NOWHERE does she say it is useless or any other derogatory term and to infer otherwise, I believe is a projection of personal issues onto the post.

She is simply stating a set of observations, perhaps facts, from the way she sees it.  I have to say that what she has written corresponds with the information I have gotten from my mom who, if anyone doesn't know from reading my posts, is a licensed clinical psychologist specializing in marital and family therapy who had more than 35 years in private practice and and an additional 5 in the public domain, and others in the field.

Standing (however one defines that term) in a healthy way is NOT about "waiting for the MLC'er to get their head out of their rear end" because it is a fact, some of them NEVER will. they will go to their grave in the tunnel. My FIL was one of those so I got to witness it first hand the carnage and destruction that he left in his wake for the last 20 years, including the way his crisis has impacted his kids lives, not the least of which is my MLCW. 

Standing, in my view, is about HEALING of the non-MLC'er!  It is the time that the LBS needs in order to get their own ducks in a row and get them headed in the right direction: the direction of personal growth, of self-discovery, of doing what is known here as "mirror work" or self-examination, self-improvement, and self-love.

One thing to remember is that the MLC'ers are almost always, without exception, people who have NO concept of self-nurturing. they are not capable of soothing themselves and recovering from setbacks and disappointments.... The spouse or partner has been in that role for them for a LONG time (19 YEARS in my case) of being an external supply of soothing and nurturing. Anyone who thinks that has NOT had an adverse effect on our own psyche is not facing reality. To use a more brutal analogy, if you hit a dog enough times, sooner or later, when you raise your hand, the dog will cringe, even if you are attempting to pet it nicely. Likewise, when ANYONE raises their hand, the dog will cringe. It takes TIME for that doggie to learn that the new person is NOT going to whack it!  It is NO different for the spouse of the Mid-Lifer. We have been in a specific role for so long of trying to fill the MLC'ers leaky bottomless bucket that we have gotten used to focusing on others at the detriment to ourselves.

THAT to me is what the stand is about.... Getting our focus turned back to being healthy individuals in our own right and taking that time.

As Nah said, the way it was expressed, that the odds for reconciliation get worse as time goes on, is a two-sided sword. On the one side, for the newly BD'd spouse, yes, they want nothing more urgently or desperately than to have their spouse back AT ANY COST!  So, yes, it may be detrimental to "hope" as some people see it. However, that message has to be taken as a whole with the REST of the post - that, regardless of the time past, NOTHING is impossible but the SPOUSE OF THE MLC'er MUST ENGAGE IN HEALING! Standing as the term is generally accepted here - meaning that one will not undertake any other relationship outside the one with the spouse and will not initiate a divorce, is all well and good. It is a personal decision and no one can say that it is right or wrong because it is a PERSONAL decision.

In NO case, should "Standing"= "Stasis." Why? Because Stasis is NOT healthy. I don't care how faithful one is (in fact, if one wants to go biblical, doesn't the bible say that the body is the temple of God? Is not the brain and the spirit part of the body? what happens when a building or any other structure is not maintained (is put dormant?) Yep, in the passage of time, it crumbles and falls apart) we, as humans, have an innate need to continue growing. It is a fact of life that, once one stops growing, emotionally, spiritually, mentally, one starts the decay process of dying....

But that doesn't have ANYTHING to do with a new relationship with another person! 

Our first and most important relationship (aside from that with our higher power) is the one with ourselves. We have to be secure and happy in our own skin, with ourselves. If someone is ONLY happy when they are in a relationship with a specific other person, then there is something intrinsically unhealthy about that relationship. A marriage is NOT about 2 people "completing" each other but rather 2 people COMPLEMENTING each other to form a new entity that is greater than the sum of the parts. Mathematically it would be like saying 1 + 1 = 3. It is two complete and whole individuals coming together to make something greater than the sum of the 2.

In order to have that happen though, EACH PARTY HAS TO BE WHOLE AND HEALTHY WITHIN THEMSELVES.

I'll be honest and say that, in the course of my marriage, I have developed unhealthy behaviors in order to fill the "void" that was inside my MLC'er. That is why I am at the point where I am now. "Standing?"I can't say that. I am not at a point where I am in a position to make that decision because I am not fully healed.  Until that point, it is neither prudent nor fair, either to myself or to another person to attempt to engage in a relationship. Does that mean I am "waiting"on my MLCW to have a cranial-rectal disinversion? No. The two things are NOT related in ANY way. My healing is NOT dependent on her or anything she does.

When the time comes that I feel that I can be wholly , genuinely, authentically and lovingly in a relationship again, then I'll make the decision regarding my relationship with her. In the mean time, what happens? I don"t know. No one has died and appointed me as God to the best of my knowledge. We can't tell what the future will hold. We can, via anecdotal stories that, quite frankly, are biased, infer that certain things may happen but one needs to remember that people on HS come and go. People come here when they are in need. they find their way to this place by recommendation (like I did) or by searching for answers.  When their need has been fulfilled, they leave. Some stick around in an altruistic way to help the "next generation" as they themselves were helped. Others find it is simply too painful to have those wounds reopened time and time again every time a newbie comes in fresh from having their butts blown off in a BD.

If one stands and continues to grow in their relationship with their Higher Power, in their relationship with themselves, in their relationships with their kids if applicable and with their community while abstaining from an intimate relationship with another human because that is what they believe in, then more power to them and they have my total respect. I don't see that as any different to those taking vows of Holy Orders. Likewise, those who have decided that, in order for them to heal and be healthy, they need to end a relationship and start over with someone else, that is also a personal decision and is NOT open to ridicule or derision from those who have chosen a different path.

Having said that, I DO recognize that, from my perspective, there are a few posters who seem to revel in describing their antics in the dating scene and those I choose NOT to follow because I find it totally disrespectful, both to themselves and to the people they are playing with.

If one is standing and waiting and pining/longing for the return of the spouse without healing themselves, then they are in the position of being stuck and that is unhealthy... After all, if one begins building a house with the exact same set of materials that have collapsed before, what in the name of all that is holy is going to change the outcome?

Finally, if the MLC'er comes out of the tunnel, they will have changed and grown - they have NO choice in the matter because to successfully end the Crisis permanently, they have to deal with whatever it was in their past that has prevented them from knowing how to recover from setbacks and disappointments, they have to have learned how to sooth and nurture themselves, they are forced to learn how to patch their leaky bucket and fill it from within rather than expect others to fill it for them.  If the partner that they have left is still in the same mode as they were before, the former MLC'er is not going to be interested in the long term.... I mean, seriously, it may be an over-dramatization but would ANYONE here, at their current age and experience, want to go back and get involved with someone you knew in high school who has NOT also matured and lived a life?

Folks, that is exactly what we are talking about here.... By virtue of the MLC, the ways of two people who expected to follow a single path have been been violently separated with one of them disappearing into the tunnel. If we stop right where we are at the time this separation takes place and wait for them to reappear, we miss out on a beautiful trip / life that will have some hills, some valleys, some rain, and some sunshine.  Most importantly though, we will not be ANYWHERE near the point where the MLC'er will finally emerge because they will continue to move.... NO ONE comes out of MLC unchanged... ever... so if we want to have any hope of a true permanent reconciliation, we too need to grow and change.

Thank you for reading the Gospel of MLC according to Ursa....

[Loyal]

Very wise words UM.

[Trustandlove]

You've put that well, Ursa. 

I think that sometimes our sadness/anger/frustration stems from seeing that they are just using something external to fill that void, wanting to scream at them that this isn't the way.  And we mostly DO get on with healing ourselves, working on ourselves in all the ways that you describe.

And then there is the horrible sadness if we see that they just won't/don't.  Because we know that if they don't, there can't be a true reconciliation, and that makes us sad.  It doesn't necessarily mean we are waiting, but I guess that's what is meant by the bit that the odds go down with time.  That the odds of them finally figuring out that it all comes from within go down the longer this goes on, the longer they find external sources. 

But nothing is impossible.  Also for us to learn to move our focus from just wanting them home, to a)working on ourselves, and b) wanting them to be whole -- which is different to wanting them home at any cost. 

[Thunder]

UM,

Your ending sentence made me laugh but everything you said is spot on.

If part parties can change and grow and become stronger "inside" there is a possibility of a reconcilement on a healthy level.   

Another way this could end is, I've know 2 couples (who had children) who never reconciled their marriage but became good friends.  They were actually better friends than they when they were married.  One remarried and her H ended up being good friends with the x too.  They have even spent holidays together.
The children are happy with each parent and didn't seem to suffer, after the fact.  They now have 2 parents who are healthy, happy, engaged and treat each other with kindness and respect.

I guess my point is maybe some people were never really meant to be in their marriage long term.  They are better friends than soul mates.  By changing and growing they both recognized they liked each other but were not meant to be together.

[Phoenix]

Thank you for reading the Gospel of MLC according to Ursa....

All I can say to your gospel, Ursa Major, is AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!
Phoenix

[Absolutely Fabulous]

Ursa and Phoenix have expressed exactly what I was thinking. I believe that we all have to realize that Standing is for US not the MLCer. Will we be there when and/or if they reach the end of the tunnel? Who knows. Like you said, we aren't God.

I really think that this forum is helpful, but not perfect. That's a good thing. Why? It leaves room for growth within the little microcosm that it is. Whether you read Chump Lady, Heart's Blessing, Rejoice Marriage Ministries, or HS all the information will do you some good if you use it for your individual situation.

If you are forced into divorce, that doesn't mean that you can't still stand. It's been in my experience that many have chosen to stand after the divorce from what I've read on other sites and forums. So, I don't think that anyone should be judged on how or when they decide to stand.

There is one thing that bothers me though: how many people read into, without reading the actual posts that people write. This seems to cause unnecessary drama, and is easily rectified by reading someone's post twice to make sure you are getting the gist or understanding it correctly.

I think that RCR has had enough time to make a hypothesis  ( whether it's correct or not is not the point ) based on the feedback that she has received here on the forum. I also think ( I'm speaking for myself here ) that this article, although has some contradictions from earlier ones is timely and has merit. Again, I do believe that the contradictions shouldn't be ignored. Not as an indictment, but as proof that RCR has grown and is open to the possibility that this may not have the outcome for all that they desire. She's just the messenger, it's not her fault if people don't like or receive the message.

How could she not come to some of these conclusions? She has a "live lab" if you will to see how this "experiment" is going. Most of what we read about MLC conflicts even among professionals. There are therapists and Psychologists out there that don't even believe that MLC exists. So, for RCR to tackle this with no clinical experience ( if this is indeed correct ) shows she at least is willing to search for answers where there really are no concrete ones.

We've all had our differences, disagreements, fights, clashes, etc... And, that's actually a good thing. I for one don't read the newbies stories, mine is horrific enough. I chose to let my XH divorce me to protect my kids and what little money there was left to protect. In the states ( all 50 and it's territories ) you can get a No Fault divorce which means you can be divorced pretty much without your consent. You can't contest a No Fault.

I don't fault anyone who thinks that divorce shouldn't be the first option if you have minor children ( the toll it was taking on mine was enough to help me make the decision ). I'm just saying don't rule it out if you're being ruined financially. Let me reiterate, I have read stories, and personally talked with people who decided to stand after the divorce was final. It's really up to you what you want to do, go or stay: it's your choice. I just learned the hard way that listening to the wrong people ( those that aren't in your situation ) can be disastrous. Be careful who you take counsel from, especially here. Not everyone is telling their full stories, there's not enough time in the day, and you'd be surprised what's not being revealed. We're only getting a glimpse into each others' lives. Remember that. Make an informed decision with the information provided, it's a guide nothing more.

[Onward]

Ursa, excellent post, and I agree with you completely.

The blog post makes good points.

AND the blog post is discouraging.

A number of people have written that they found it discouraging.
It is discouraging because it fails to acknowledge that a lot of people are already doing the very things that RCR suggests.
It is discouraging because it is a message people already receive on a day to day basis, and did not expect in a place where they thought they are understood differently.
It is discouraging because it doesn't acknowledge the commitment and energy many members of this board put into healing themselves, and standing against the very societal forces referenced in the post. Instead, it's adding that same societal message.
It is discouraging because it implies a quiet life is not a healing life.
It is discouraging because it singles out a particular group of people for no particular reason and with zero evidence.

And what is MORE discouraging is there is no apparent willingness to acknowledge that it is discouraging.

There's nothing more I can write to try and make that point.

The thing is, I am not upset by the blog post.

As a piece of communication, it wasn't particularly effective for newbies who are looking for reasons to understand what just happened to them.

It was clearly affirming for those who are ambivalent, standing for  themselves, and/or moving on. Which is great.

And it was discouraging and critical of those who are deemed standing for something other than themselves or 'waiting' --  the description of which has never been provided and the message of which seems you're doing it too long, you're probably doing it wrong. And if you're praying about it, you're delusional. Which is not so great.

Because these voices feel shut down and not heard, and do not feel safe saying they are not heard, and they disappear or are driven away.  I don't feel particularly good about that, which is why I am being a dog with a bone. And why I will have to go spend some time in the bathroom, looking long and hard in the mirror after my own rant is done.

This is just my opinion, but the rationale for the post as has been described here is a slippery slope toward believing if HS could just provide more advise and give more information of the financial and legal sort, it will prevent bad things from happening to people.
That more information will get people to make good and right choices.

This is, in my opinion, the very codependent behaviour LBSs are accused of.

That marks a pretty big shift from a peer support/mentor role, to a counseling/advisory role, which HS makes clear in the recently added legal disclaimer it is not.

I completely agree, this is RCR's site. She has done a tremendous service providing it. She can write what she wants, and has her reasons.

That doesn't mean readers aren't going to take away their own message, and provide feedback - especially if the message received differs from the message she intended to send.

[Absolutely Fabulous]

Onward, Rejoice Marriage Ministries may be more of what you're seeking when it comes to your line of thinking. I still don't get where you're coming from. You sound like you feel misunderstood and not appreciated. This just isn't true. Your time and energy aren't wasted. No one's on the forum is wasted. No matter which way you go.

Personally, I just don't get your need for external validation on this. But, you feel how you feel. I just don't see why you care so much about how the rest of us feel or think. We're just expressing different views.

I don't take anything anyone says on this forum personally. It is, what it is. Only a few on here know me personally, their opinions I value. Everyone else I take with a grain of salt. Just my take.

[stayed]

That doesn't mean readers aren't going to take away their own message, and provide feedback - especially if the message received differs from the message she intended to send.

AGREE!  What's the problem?  Nobody opposes opinions!  All knowledge is good.

Hugs Stayed 

[xyzcf]

From My3girls:

Onward, Rejoice Marriage Ministries may be more of what you're seeking when it comes to your line of thinking

EVERYONE and I mean EVERYONE's opinion is allowed and valued on Heros Spouse. We may not agree BUT each person's views must be respected.

It may be that standers need hope to continue to do something that is so hard.

It may be that non standers would prefer the "odds are against you" to help them move into another relationship.

Each of us are different.

There are plenty of people who have posted on this thread who agree with Onward's position, and I will be the first to stand up and say that I agree with her as well as Anjae and other's who have written about the value of hope in dealing with difficult situations in our lives, be it a spouse who leaves or a serious illness. As a nurse, I have always helped my patients have hope because things change when you least expect them to.

It doesn't mean that Onward's view don't fit HS anymore than any other members views.