[Songanddance]

Reconciliation is really, really difficult.  I don't think any MLCer becomes a changed man or woman immediately upon leaving the tunnel.  They tend to nip, in and out of the tunnel for quite a while after they SEEM to be exiting their crisis.  Honestly, you can't really tell if they are out of crisis or not for quite a long while. 

Mine and most other recovered MLCer's that I have known, spend a long time trying to dodge accountability and ownership of their behavior throughout their crisis.  It's crazy, during their crisis, they adamantly deny that they are in CRISIS.  Once they start to come out, their big EXCUSE is, I was having a MLC.  My h tried that one... didn't work out too well for him. 

They become a new, improved person when they finally own what they did.  When they finally accept accountability and actually seek and ask for forgiveness.  Usually we have forgiven the actions, words and behavior during their crisis, but it is pretty surprising how many layers of forgiveness there is.  Just when you think you have totally forgiven them, something else is divulged.  It's not easy and I think any recovered MLCer that returns and completely weathers the aftermath, stands a pretty good chance of becoming a pretty good person.  If they can't, then they will remain shallow, petty and unhappy.

A recovered MLCer can be a pretty amazing person eventually but they have to do a lot of work.  A little easier if they are with a partner who has done the mirror work on him/herself.  Having a role model to follow, definitely makes it a little easier for the returner. 

To top it all off, we can definitely forgive but NOBODY ever forgets! 

Anyway, that's my personal opinion.  Others will be along eventually to add their opinions I expect.

As always Stayed - to the point and undeniably brilliant info.

This is perfect for me in my thinking at this moment and with what is going on with H and "me" or rather my situation. It is good to have a reminder of just how tough this MLC malarky is and can be when you have been it for a few years.....

[Trustandlove]

Good post, stayed -- so many times we hear "they return broken"; you've explained in more detail and more clearly. 

[Keep believing]

Rcr, I dont know if you ever wrote about what your h said he felt like when he went through this. I was wondering if you could tell me where you might have wrote about it ,or can you tell us a bit on this thread.

[Braveheart]

From what I've read about some accounts of the "Returned", it seems a lot of rugsweeping is being done on the side of the LBS. Is the "Broken" MLc'er really coming back or do they simply have no where else to go?

[Thunder]

Good point, Braveheart.

Not all come  back for the right reasons.

[stayed]

This is a very good point Braveheart!  Quite frankly, I have seen a lot of rugsweeping as well.  It really is easier to let it all go then to face it and deal with it. In my opinion that is only going to lead the couple straight back to where this ALL BEGAN!  Sad but true. 

In my opinion, the returned partner has to feel real REMORSE!  In my experience, I have not seen a single MLCer who returned with true, blue remorse.  Most returned with a great deal of sincere guilt and shame, but that is not the same thing as remorse, as we all know.  Unless they reach remorse, as I said earlier guilt and shame, end up becoming anger and depression, which helps NOBODY!

Getting my husband to own his actions during his crisis was probably the hardest thing I ever did.  I went through every emotion there is... furious anger, to true, blue pity for my partner.  People are SO resistant to remorse and repenting.  They honestly think that just feeling very, very badly about a thing, is enough.  The number of times my h shouted, "| said I was sorry, what more do you want?"  I could have bought every swamp in Florida and if I had bought into his FEEBLE apology, swamp land is exactly what I would have ended up with. 

Instead, I slowly found the right boundaries, the boundaries that were going to lead both of us back to redemption and reconciliation.  It was especially difficult for me, as I did not have Hero Spouse to give me suggestions.  That being said, I did have another wonderful "life line" called Surviving Infidelity, the lovely people there helped me so much during that time period, as I went through a lot of the emotions I began during and after BD but because my h returned so quickly, I had not totally completed. 

These wonderful people helped me to understand that I was having severe anxiety attacks and not heart attacks that came and went, hehehe.  They helped me to understand that I had to hold my husband's feet to the fire until he understood EXACTLY what he had done.  They helped me realize that my h had to own what he had done, JUST LIKE I owned my part/s in the marriage.  They also impressed upon me the importance of helping him to understand that, no matter how bad he felt our marriage was, that there was NOTHING bad enough, that gave him the right to lie, cheat and betray me, as he did. 

It is not easy Braveheart to deal with these type of things.  As it often feels like you are BEATING the returner up.  Standing firm on your expectations is not picking on them.  We don't let our children away with bad behavior, well this is the same thing.  I was always suspicious that people hate to admit wrong doing but reconciliation showed me that people HATE admitting to anything.  The crazy part, they seem to think that they don't NEED to own their misdeeds, yet the Bible and life in general has taught us that UNLESS we understand what we did wrong and completely OWN it, we are doomed to repeat it.  Surely NOBODY ever wants to repeat this.

As the left behind spouse no more, it is your job to make sure that you truly do forgive them, and that your returned MLCer totally grasps the HORROR of their behavior and how much they must now repent for their actions.  Not only to their LBS but children, family and friends that they disappointed, abandoned and replaced during their crisis.  Certainly, they need to learn about MLC.  They need to understand what happened to them.  Once they do that though, they truly must not HIDE BEHIND it as a very convenient excuse that allows them to downgrade their behavior to a "oops, me bad", sort of moment.  This was far, far worse then that and we all know it.

You are right Braveheart, there is a lot of sweeping under the carpet for some of the people that are trying to reconnect.  I think at first you have to set it all aside, until you become reacquainted again.  Give yourselves an opportunity to fall back in love, which quite honestly is much easier then even I expected.  These are people we trusted, spent many years with, most of us had children with them.  When they stop acting cold and nasty, it is easy to see the person you loved for many, many years.  The thing is though, unless you show them (as you cannot do this for them) that they must DEAL with this monster, not sweep it aside, we seriously cannot have the relationship we want and desire with our returned spouse. 

If we do, then it is possible to have a much improved partner... actually both of you become much improved.  It's worth the effort but you have to remain very alert and not allow either of you to slip back.  I'm not sure that the returner every totally grasps that these changes within us, have to be for life and we have to be

I'm pleased that you brought this up Braveheart, that is a mistake so many people make because they seem to feel that by holding their MLCer accountable they are RUBBING it in, not letting it go, using it to lord over the MLCer.  I strongly believe that if you want to have the sort of marriage that I now have, you have to enforce boundaries and insist that both of you remain accountable for our behaviour to each other.  Just my opinion Braveheart.  Take what you want and leave the rest or even all of it. 

Hugs Stayed

[Ready2Transform]

From what I've read about some accounts of the "Returned", it seems a lot of rugsweeping is being done on the side of the LBS. Is the "Broken" MLc'er really coming back or do they simply have no where else to go?

Boom. That's the message a lot of the gurus of marriage reconciliation also promote (Joe Beam comes to mind the most - basically said the LBS has two weeks to ask non-invasive questions and should then stop "shoving it in their face"). I can't see where that wouldn't lead to LBS repression. And if it's repression that leads to crisis, wouldn't that be a factor in at worst another crisis in the family down the road, or at best an unsatisfying, non-transparent relationship? Both parties should be free to express their emotions in a healthy marriage, IMO, and that would be a really huge thing to have to squash for the "greater good".

[Thunder]

Stayed, you reminded me of some things my X told me when he was in treatment for drugs n alcohol.

The counselors and the others trying to heal do not let you get away with sweeping things under the rug or making excuses for what you have done.  Nope, the hold their feet to the fire until they see, understand and admit the gravity of what they have done, the hurt they have caused.
Until they see real remorse.

That's when the healing starts.

[stayed]

Not all come  back for the right reasons.

Actually, I think they return believing they can control the return.  They want to return to exactly what they had without any repercussion or consequences.  Just my opinion but it seems to me that the returns that fail, are the ones where the LBS's allowed that to happen.  This is probably one of the few times when a partner has "leverage" over the other.  Not a nice way to put this, but if you want a new, improved partner then somebody has to make that happen, because MLCer's really do not want to revisit the past or "mirror work" or do stuff like that.  They would much prefer,  ALL IS FORGIVEN and forgotten... now let's just carry on as though nothing happened. 

Definitely this can and is forgiven.  Forgiveness is just as much for ourselves as it for the sinner.  That being said.. we NEVER forget.  Nor should it ever be forgotten. 

Just my opinion... completely! 

Hugs Stayed

[stayed]

From what I've read about some accounts of the "Returned", it seems a lot of rugsweeping is being done on the side of the LBS. Is the "Broken" MLc'er really coming back or do they simply have no where else to go?

Boom. That's the message a lot of the gurus of marriage reconciliation also promote (Joe Beam comes to mind the most - basically said the LBS has two weeks to ask non-invasive questions and should then stop "shoving it in their face"). I can't see where that wouldn't lead to LBS repression. And if it's repression that leads to crisis, wouldn't that be a factor in at worst another crisis in the family down the road, or at best an unsatisfying, non-transparent relationship? Both parties should be free to express their emotions in a healthy marriage, IMO, and that would be a really huge thing to have to squash for the "greater good".

Sorry but these amazing responses are coming in as I am responding to the other. 

OMG... 2 weeks...that is ridiculous!  That means the LBS has to stuff all this down and then try to forget all about it.  NO WAY!  When I say I was THREE YEARS Ready2transform, I am not kidding.  Sometimes, rarely but sometime, hubby and I get into it and I will still throw it in his face.  He hates it!  I hate it when I do it BUT this does not just go away.  This is part of who you both are now.  Betrayal is something one NEVER forgets.  At the slightest sign of betrayal/disloyalty/deceit etc., expect to flare up and start accusing, or at the very least letting them know that YOU ARE CONCERNED!  Is that considered "throwing it in his/her face?"

How can you not?  This isn't just a "me bad" thing!  This is betrayal!  The worst kind of betrayal, if there is a worst kind.  In most cases we were abandoned as well as betrayed, so there is no way that we should feel that we have to BURY our hurt and pain, because it might be perceived as "shoving it in their faces"!  They did it... they should expect to hear about it.  My h definitely does.  If you do not get it out, you are going to have a big, pink elephant in your life forever.  No thank you.  I am honest now.  I react honestly.  If my h doesn't like it, then he shouldn't have done it or he shouldn't have returned.

My husband and I have discussed this stuff in great detail.  In his mind, ad nauseam lol.  There are no freebies my friends.  No free get of jail cards.  This is real life.  Being accountable, actually makes all of this very bearable.  Believe me, my husband doesn't hold back with me either.  The man shoots straight from the hip and sometimes it really hurts.  That being said, generally his angry retorts back at me, are totally justified and validated.  No, I don't like it.  No he doesn't like it when I do it to him. 

Since both of us started being honest (and I am sure we are not being 100% honest with each other, I actually think that would probably be going a bit too far lol), we have a contentment and peace between us, that was never present before.  WE not only love each other, but we totally LOVE being together and now that we are retired, we are together a lot.  I'm not sure we would be as happy and content as we are, if this had not happened.  Retirement togetherness might have been a bridge too far, but having been separated we know we love being together, so every day is a bonus.  Even if I do rub it in his face now and then... and he into mine. 

Again I state.. just my personal opinion! 

Hugs Stayed