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Author Topic: Off-Topic U.S. Election

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Off-Topic Re: U.S. Election
#80: November 10, 2016, 02:48:35 AM
It's long.  It's not sugar coated. Feel free to skip it entirely.

Like many here, it's hard to get my brain around a Trump presidency even though I recognized that the current political climate, could well result in Trump being the Republican nominee and the winner of the presidential election. The thought appalled me at every level, but working for the rights of women and other marginalized people for 35 years has made it clear that we are a divided country and that racism and sexism are alive and well and a good number of women do nternalize sexism and fight against our own (and other women's) progress and rights because we are socialized to be "good girls," not rock the boat, not exhibit too much intellect or confidence (go along to get along). The anti-suffrage movement was large and extremely organized and comprised of women. Phyllis Schlafely and other women notoriously fought against the Equal Rights Amendment and the second wave of the women's rights movement. And most days I still hear at least one woman say something along the lines of, "I'm not a feminist, but..." (and then proceed to discuss all the ways she believes as a feminist or benefits from the work feminists have done to pave the way for her to be able to vote, earn a living, go to school, etc.). For the record, a feminist is simply a person (woman or man) who believes in the political, social, economic and educational equality of women and men. All of the nonesense, myths and stereotypes, including the deeply offensive "Feminazi" term is about intimidating and punishing, or shaming women away from our own equality. Don't bother giving examples of women who go too far or "hate men." I'm tired of defending the obvious. While much of those stories are exaggerations and urban legend meant to discredit feminism, please note that extremists and true feminists are not the same thing at all, so take care not to hijack and misuse the term.

And speaking of maligned, Hillary Clinton is judged in such a cliche way, held to a different standard, and had myths and lies perpetrated against her for more than 30 years. The target has been on her back so long that she had no chance to escape the dehumanizing and discrediting. No politician is a saint, including Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders, for that matter.  I have nothing against Bernie and agreed with the majority of his points, but there was no one more qualified than Hillary Clinton. Her track record for getting things done was longer and more significant. A number of his ideas were wonderful, but not realistic to actually accomplish and even he admitted he didn't know how he would do some of what he proposed. Bernie also escaped the vitriol and attacks precisely because he had not been in the public eye to the same extent and level as Hillary and had thus not been painted as an enemy of the more extremist Republicans for decades. When a person hasn't been a threat to the powers that be, they won't be attacked and maligned for years, and will then look pretty "clean" in comparison.

Again, no politician is a saint and don't agree with any of them, including Hillary, on everything, but much of what Hillary is accused of didn't happen as reported or was greatly exaggerated or misrepresented. How many Americans actually read the official report about the emails, for example? It does not depict what Trump says or even what Comey said in August, but it's not difficult to see how easy it is to discredit and create suspicion around a woman who dares to push past the status quo and be smart and strong and potentially powerful. God help her. The backlash is ugly and will go to whatever lengths it takes to put her back in her place and keep her there. Trump knows that. So he spouted lies and absurdities and misrepresentations every chance he got and all too many Americans --women included--were willing to believe it, many without ever having read objective, well researched articles, seeking facts from multiple, reputable, diverse sources, etc. That is what systemic sexism is and every one of our daughters is a potential target of it, so we need to see this kind of assault for what it is. If Hillary was held accountable only for her actual actions, and then compared to Trump's actions, it should have been a landslide in her favor. But not in a country that claims to be progressive while women still do not have constitutional equality, let alone a woman ever serving as President. And not in a country where no Democratic candidate for president since Lyndon Johnson has won a majority of white votes. Take that in, America. Really grasp what that says. And not in a country where a man is elected president who accused our sitting president of not being a citizen of the United States (birther movement) and was endorsed by the KKK. Where a black church was burned and pro-Trump messages were written on it. Not in a country where Trump supporters chant "Jew-S-A," rather than USA at reporters in their midst at rallies, because Trump blames bad media coverage on "the Jews who own the media outlets." Where the FBI is reported by some of its own agents to be "Trumpland" leaking lies and information to the likes of Guiliani and others just days before the election. Where Russian hackers go after Clinton because it works much better for Russia to have an arrogant chump in office than a President they could not outsmart and not out maneuver. Where a candidate for President can call people from Mexico murders and rapists, can sexually harass and assault women, had a lawsuit against him and another man for child rape, is being sued for Trump University, can refuse to reveal his taxes and his foreign investments and potetial conflicts of interest, and where a candidate can have Twitter wars about a Gold Star family, attack women for their age, weight and breast size, and blame them for their spouse's infidelity.  A country where a Presidential candidate can mock a differently abled person, accuse a judge of misconduct because he is Mexican, say he will build a wall (like the Berlin Wall), will deport millions, will ban and "register" Muslims, will repeal LGBTQ gains and the Affordable Care Act that serves more than 20 million Americans. Where his running mate is an even more horrifying right-wing ideologue than Trump.

Exactly what does it take to disqualify a person from arguably the most powerful position in the free world? Apparently it takes any misstep and exaggerated reports about an email server for Clinton and the fact that she needs to smile differently or speak differently, but the sky's the limit for Trump. THAT is a double standard. We voted in a man who appears to be narcissistic, racist, mysogynistic, Xenophobic, homophobic, has a quick temper, and a divisive personality with zero public or military service/experience and even less understanding of the world around him and the global implications of being a loose canon. America needs our ally support. These are dangerous times. We need people watching our backs and coming to our aid as we have needed other times. We wouldn't even be a country were it not for France. We are not an island unto ourselves. Yes, Trump can charm when needed and sound reasonable--when it serves him--but we have seen his true colors and heard the tapes of his own words when he didn't know he was being recorded.

It is also not typically helpful not to vote or to give a write-in or a protest vote---especially not this year. I understand it is our right to vote however we wish, but a vote for a third party, a write-in, or no vote at all was ultimately a vote for the Trump presidency, according to the analysts. Too much was at stake here domestically and globally this election. This was not the time to not participate or to make a "statement" that ended up helping Trump get elected. Did people think Bernie was joking when he begged everyone to vote for Hillary? The last thing he wanted was a Trump presidency. It puts everything he worked for and wants at risk more than any other outcome. There comes a point when we have to very seriously consider and understand potential outcomes and do our part to cut off the electoral path of a demagogue like Trump. People tend to hesitate to compare him to Hitler, but there are similarities in the way he has come to power and what he used to get here---fear and hate mongering, making people feel even more disenfranchised and like he is their only savior, pitting groups against each other, villifying and dehumanizing people, threats and bullying, etc.  As for "change"---what a farce. Trump is more a "politician" than most politicians and the same old Republic guard was voted in. This is neither change nor anti-establishment.

I have had the honor of meeting Hillary Clinton on more than one occasion and being close friends with people who are close friends of hers. She has always exuded kindness, genuiness, compassion, humor and self deprication, intelligence, and dedication. The people who are close to her and have been for years, describe her similarly. She has dedicated her life to justice and the marginalized since she was a teenager. How many Americans have any real idea who Hillary is or what she has done through the span of her life, beyond what was spouted on TV or overheard or repeated as truth whether it was or not? She didn't arrive on the scene with Bill. She was a force unto herself before that and is, in my opinion, the more qualified Clinton, though---again--not perfect. She had one of the highest--if not the highest--ratings as Secretary of State and was a popular Senator. How soon we forget and how willing we are to still allow women to be villified for daring to apsire to the level that their qualifications should allow.

Watching the hope go out of my daughter's eyes on election night of this first year that she was elligible to vote was heartbreaking. Yet, I knew the US takes for granted our voting rights with typically only around 57% of elligible voters voting, and that our country is divided and fear, misinformation, ignorance, bigotry, and/or frustration might rule the day and the election, but I held out hope that we are better than that.  Women, people of color, and others who fought beside us for the right to vote, suffered, and some died. Yet, that sacrifice is dismissed when that right is taken for granted. Thankfully, it wasn't by those who exercised their right to vote, made their voice heard, understood the stakes and took them seriously.

A devastating statement has been made about our country and the way we devalue women, people of color, people of various cultures and religions, the LGBTQ community, ... The underbelly has been exposed for what it is, but times like these are when movements are born and when good people stand up, speak out, and take action.

Our country and our world are divided and growing more so of late. It behooves us to heed the warning signs and come together as countries and continents and a global family. Our lives and the lives of our friends, neighbors, children and grandchildren depend on it.

If you are so inclined, look for ways to get involved, to be a part of making sure that we hold on to what is good and just and fair. We need to show our children that we are not going to let things fall apart. We are not going to allow them to inherit an absurd legacy. We are not going to quietly accept the loss of rights and the gains that have been made, the destruction of our Supreme Court, and a mockery of our federal judge appointments. Find an organization to support financially, a group to join and actively work for, sign a petition, organize a resistance march, write something for your local newspaper or a blog, gather friends, family, and neighbors for a roundtable discussion about what you can do to mitigate the outcome of this election, get to know Muslim and immigrant community members, work for gender equality. When we feel like retreating and licking our wounds, that is the time we most need to advance, and speak up and fight on.

All is not lost unless, we the people, allow it to be. The election results demonstrate what collective action can do and the same collective action can be used for GOOD. As Clinton herself said in her concession speech, "Scripture tells us not to grow weary in doing good, for in good season we shall reap. My friends, let us have faith in each other, let us not grow weary and lose heart, for there are more seasons to come and there is more work to do."

Phoenix
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« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 05:32:29 AM by Phoenix »
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Re: U.S. Election
#81: November 10, 2016, 05:00:02 AM

1trouble, like any other EU country, the UK has its sovereignty, in fact, the UK has benefits other countries do not have. For example, the UK does not have Schengen.


Thank goodness

The leave vote pretty much felt like a vote against us, the people of the EU, not against the bureaucrats of the EU.

I cannot help it if you feel like a vote to leave was a personal vote against you and other Europeans but the fact that I have heard this before in various televised discussions makes me wonder where it came from and I wonder if this was some sort of psychological propaganda that obviously hit a chord somewhere.....

Why has Britain's right to vote out of the European Union become so emotional ???????
Could it also be that some of the leaders of the European Union started using this emotional language and the European press and its now been picked up?
Lets face it, it would suit the bureaucrats if the light was shone on the british people and not them!

It angers me that the facts of why most people voted to leave have not been properly reported.  Even the BBC, if they ever give any coverage to someone who voted leave, will find the most bigoted uneducated person they can find to say why they left.

It was not personal against Europeans at all......we want to be part of the world including Europe but on our own terms...not dictated ones


And, by the way, they are elected, we all vote for European Parliament. There are positions there are not elected by the people, but the same is true in every country, like central bank governor or supreme court judge. And you do elect the Queen/King, do you? 

I am well aware we have MEP's who we vote for, however the real power in Brussels lies with the people like  Jean-Claude Juncker and his other power crazy cronies, comparing them to our Queen and Royal family who have no real power is like comparing a fish with an apple!.
And the Governor of the bank of England is only responsible for monetary policy, this is not at all comparable to the like of Jean-Claude Junker.....unless of course the Governor of the Bank of England started to want to control the army and maybe change the why our constitution works and our laws.....

You also mention the Supreme court judges, this is another big bug bear here in England, or courts were being over ruled on fundamental points of British law by the European courts.......and some pretty wacky decisions were and have been made.... which, if this wasn't so serious, would be laugable ...........


What you voted for will not allow me, or any other EU citizen to go to the UK (well, we may, like back in the day, which is of no interest). I has planning to chose an English University to going back to study, now I will not. If Scotland remains in the EU, I may select a Scottish one, but England, and London (my favourite city in the world) have been crossed from my list.

Sorry but what rot!!  I didn't vote to stop you going to University here or anyone else, I voted to stop Brussels turning what was a common trading platform into a federal state, I voted to stop the erosion of British law, to keep our army, to have control over our borders, to be allowed to trade with the rest of the world.  To allow us to be able to decide on our future and not be dictated too....
And anyway, by your own admission you are saying you now don't want to come here so my vote hasn't stopped you, you have crossed England off your list!!

Being out of the EU does not mean Britain has shut the door on all Europeans, it means it can open its doors to the rest of the world and means we can chose who we want to come here and who we do not want to come here.

At the moment in the area I live they cannot build enough homes, there is a big homeless problem,even though they are building on every time bit of land that comes available, it takes over two weeks to get an appointment at the doctors, it takes nearly an hour to drive somewhere which should only take 20 minutes, the trains are fit to bursting, the schools don't have places for the amount of pupils, everywhere is getting more and more crammed full, rents are going up and up, the price of properly too, its now impossible for most young people to ever be able to afford to buy their own home...............these are facts of life in the UK today.....

And if you want to look at why the vote swung the way of the leavers in the Brexit vote then look no further than Jean Claude Junker and his team, as if he had not been so arrogant in his belief that the UK would not dare to leave and given David Cameron some real tangible changes to put to the British people, when he visited Brussels at the beginning of the year, we wouldn't be in this position............BUT instead he would not negotiate or give him anything and that gave a strong message to me and others that Brussels did not care a jot about our concerns.....   

As for the comparison of the Brexit vote and the Trump vote....IMO there are no real comparisons other than the shock result............

The good thing............because I am an optimist is before these two votes there was total apathy, even the campaigns run on brexit and the American presidential elections were lazy and divisive, we were all in danger of sleep walking into a world being run by the media, spin doctors and faceless power crazy bureaucrats .....
People are now engaging in politics, many for the first time, people are starting to care who governs them and in future we will see more people turning out to vote and that can only be a good thing for democracy in the long run.


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« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 05:11:38 AM by 1trouble »
"I can't go back to yesterday I was a different person then"..............Alice in Wonderland

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Re: U.S. Election
#82: November 10, 2016, 05:24:42 AM
"People are now engaging in politics, many for the first time, people are starting to care who governs them and in future we will see more people turning out to vote and that can only be a good thing for democracy in the long run."

I have to agree with you.  I am a political junky but I see and know people who are so disengaged.  I've asked them who their local officials are and they have no idea yet they get all bent out of shape if their officials make a decision that effects them.

People don't need to live politics every day but at least do your homework, know who you are voting for and why?  It's not that hard people.
So yes, this was a wake up call!

Sorry, I can't comment on the European Union.   :)
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Re: U.S. Election
#83: November 10, 2016, 06:22:50 AM
Quote
It was not personal against Europeans at all......we want to be part of the world including Europe but on our own terms...not dictated ones

I don't want to be drawn into the rest of your points 1T but this is valid.

My MLCer H has had his own successful business for years - trading worldwide and having some control over it.  However, and despite his MLC, in the last few years "Europe" has interfered and, anyone who wants to trade in Europe now in the level of equipment my H designs, has to qualify for a series of markings and certificates.
 
Bear in mind, his products have out lasted his European rivals with considerably fewer set backs or needs for "correction/replacement" over the last 20+ years.  However, now, in order to have the certificate and marking, he has to have the equipment tested to new EU standards. Nothing wrong with that in principle but the initial test set up cost £30K  - yes £30k for a one man business - no sliding scale. The test is completed by BSI /EU.

Every time he makes a design change and he often has to as the nature of the product requires a sense of custom made , the EU, not the BSI, insists that he has subsequent tests which cost him  £4- 5K testing each new component.  By component, I mean electronic components so a capacitor (costing 0.003 of a penny) has a very expensive test applied to it.

He then told BSI/EU that he would trade the product with China and Asia and was told that, unless he had the specific mark which, technically is only essential for selling this product in Europe,  his product would be vetoed by the EU.

This has only happened in the last few years...... prior to that the same product was being bought and used very successfully and was incredibly safe. In fact H has been called out by British companies to replace other  "foreign" manufacturer's products because they were not durable or safe after a period of time.

Consequently my H wanted out and a chance to trade on better and less strangling terms. 

I have never met my MEP - my MEP has never sent me any info on why I should vote for them and what they are doing for me and yet my MEP is telling me why I should vote to keep them in Europe. This is not what I call working for your constituency.........

So there are other reasons for people voting out of Europe. 

I exercised my right to vote and irrespective of whether I like the result or not, many more people voted in the referendum than in a general election so democracy spoke and it is up to all of us to live with this to the very best of our ability.
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Re: U.S. Election
#84: November 10, 2016, 06:27:41 AM
Quote
his article says what a lot of us are feeling I believe (NOT just US Americans, even those ex-pats like me)

http://johnpavlovitz.com/2016/11/09/heres-why-we-grieve-today/

I commented that it was the TONE of the campaign, the harsh and ugly Election Rhetoric that was the problem... The statements that Trump made AFTER the election
are a total departure of the potty-mouth antics of the election because, well, let's face it, he got himself splattered into the media every single day for 16 months by
saying something inflammatory.... When one looks at his real record, he is actually more liberal than Clinton in areas of free-trade and business (or at least he was)

Unfortunately words and ICBMs have things in common: Once they are shot off, you can not get them back and when they strike, it makes one he|| of a mess.... The hate, bigotry and all the rest of the ills have been loosed from Pandora's Box in this campaign and the results of
Quote
the vote show that those who voted for Trump followed his line of rhetoric. Does he actually THINK that way? Only time will tell but the box has been opened and the ills have been released into the world.
This is the point URSA (one of many--including multiple examples-- in my novel length post  :-\ ).  I am talking about actions and a long history of them. Trump's own words when he didn't know he was being recorded and certainly didn't hope anyone would ever hear it. Also the many many things that he said (and was filmed saying) long before he ran for office. There were also allegations of sexual assault during the divorce with his first wife. He had no issue with Howard Stern calling his daughter a "piece of @ss" and said more than once that he (Trump) would date and sleep with her if she wasn't his daughter. And there has been recorded information released from his television show (off camera snippets) indicating tremendous mysogyny and racism, lawsuits going back decades that implicate Trump in discriminatory housing lawsuits in which people testified he used the "N" word," and refused to rent to non-whites and on and on.

This is not a political stunt and if Hillary had said or done any one of these things she would have been crucified. The readiness of so many to "drink the kool-aid" and overlook all of it is exactly what is so frightening. That's why so many others are asking exactly how bad does it need to be to matter?  If this was a political stunt, and it's not (he has too much history of doing this very thing, along with sexual harassment and assault) he would have the worst judgement for office.

He also is not liberal or necessarily conservative. He claimed to be a prochoice democrat not that long ago and for many years prior,  and originally wanted to run as an Independent, so his only commitment is to whatever gets him the most votes depending on the audience he's speaking to. He is an opportunist with no real idea what he's doing or why. He saw an opportunity among a certain faction of the population and he exploited it and played it. Those who voted for him have been played worse than anyone. He will continue to be a divisive embarrassment to the US and a boil on the face of our history. Watch. Same for Mike Pence who had businesses leaving his state and people unwilling to visit there until he stepped back his crazy anti-LGBTQ policies. He knew he was going to lose his office in the next election and then presto, in walked Trump offering him a new job. Pence alienated his state, but now is supposed to be good for the country? Not likely.

And I don't just take information from the news. I do my own homework and research and have followed Trump a long time, because he has always been a concern and has had political aspirations for longer than many realize.

Trump is an orange, blow hard, jack@ss, who has repeatedly run business into the ground, made more enemies than you can imagine, has cheated on all of his three wives, doesn't pay the people who do work for him (or his taxes) and all the rest from my previous post. Some people are all too willing to accept and be lulled into a complacency, but I have never been an "Ignorance is bliss" person. It doesn't make me feel better it just makes me feel...ignorant.

Phoenix




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Re: U.S. Election
#85: November 10, 2016, 06:37:35 AM
I agree Phoenix.

I'm guessing Trump will be the puppet and Pence will be the real president, just like Cheney was.
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Re: U.S. Election
#86: November 10, 2016, 06:40:37 AM
This is a website for standing, not politics ;)
Jk, couldnt resist!
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Re: U.S. Election
#87: November 10, 2016, 06:46:34 AM
Trump is actually a dissatisfied life long DEMOCRAT who is racist and unhappy a Black man was president so he switched to Republican to get in a couple of years ago. Who knows how he will govern? I all heard was the blatant bigotry, racism and sexism that turned my stomach.

Most recently I heard him say something about infrastructure, which is a Democratic platform.

I really feel he did it for the perceived power.  This situation is just... yet who knows how it will really go because the Republicans see him as a puppet who they can pull his strings and have him repeat the same regular talking points, while robbing the poor, non white and disabled just to get them richer. The Republicans, and everyone else who voted for this clown will figure this out one day.

When you really think about it, your local state Governor has more power than any US President ever will.

Thanks LP, I understand better :)

 
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Re: U.S. Election
#88: November 10, 2016, 06:54:07 AM
Funny, DJ.

It does say "Off Topic."  lol
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Re: U.S. Election
#89: November 10, 2016, 07:37:23 AM
The Republican right-wing is no less dangerous or scary than Trump. It doesn't matter whether he is a puppet. Plus, he is the one who represents the US, speaks with world leaders, perhaps even while fondling their wives.  ::)

There have also been speculations that Trump won't stay in office and that it was never the establishment's plan that he does. Pence as President would be a major coup for the far right and may have been their plan all along, but Pence's unpopularity would have made it impossible for him to get in on his own. If that's the case, I would guess Trump is an unwilling participant in his own political demise as his ego wants this position. I am truly not a conspiracy theorist and don't put any real stock in such speculation, but it would be easy for Trump to be ousted from inside. All it would take is the right adultery photo op or the right leaking of information related to the current investigations and lawsuits against him. I don't believe there is a lot of warm fuzzy feelngs between Trump and the Republican party. He is likely some kind of ends to a means just as Trump's base was an ends to his.

In other conspiracy news, there was mention today that, due to the polls being uniquely off base, some reporters are asking for investigations into the possibility that Russia, or another country who would benefit from us having an inexperienced, gullible president, hacked election results. The conspiracy theories are bound to continue for awhile as though the truth is not bad enough.  I am just going to try to enjoy Obama's remaining time in office. We won't see his kind of leadership or dignity for a while.
Phoenix






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