[KayDee]

Heaven knows if I have done this right. I went at the speed of a slug riding a glacier with my last thread, didn't think I would get a new one.

Here's the old one https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11981.0

Recap
Married 20 years - all peachy IMO, although he seemed quite depressed a year before.
BD 7/22 - left home almost immediately. Confusing departure message and bad packing of clothes, meaning continual returns, until I went NC for my sanity.
Sorta OW (maybe EA) - didn't stick
7/23 OW2 - moved in with her and her kids. Just after a major touch and go.
Now talking about divorce, although asks me what I think about it, as if it has nothing to do with him.
Major FOO issues.
The Complete Kit

[WHY]

I think the most important thing Marvin said is that the core was unstable to begin with. That, imho, is the most important thing to realize. A completely stable and healthy person didn't blow up and therefore they will eventually reassemble as their  "old self." The core WAS unstable. The reasons for that are unique to each person, but if that's not addressed, even a "reassembled" person after crisis will still be to varying degrees unhealthy - again, just my opinion.

I spoke BusyBee ~1.5 years ago.  She went through MLC and was extremely helpful in trying to understand what goes on in the mind of an at home wallower with fantasy alienator. 

She said she had no FOO issues.  Good home.  Good upbringing.  She doesnt know why she did what she did, but she worked through it, and came out on the other side. 

This is another example of the group think I mentioned.  It seems like in the vast majority of cases there are FOO issues.  But in her case, there werent. 
So why the "core isnt intact" is not always clear. 

I wish we had the knowledge to understand the human brain better and help the MLCers out there.  It destroys families.

[xyzcf]

She said she had no FOO issues.  Good home.  Good upbringing.  She doesnt know why she did what she did, but she worked through it, and came out on the other side.

Why, Thank you for bringing this up.

I read what Nas wrote and thought 2 things...we all perhaps have some instability in our core and who would be considered a "completely stable and healthy person"?

My husband too had great parents, good home, lots of friends...there were not any signs that he was "unstable" in his core...spending 35 years together, I would think I would have had some clue. He is incredibly successful, incredibly smart...not sure he would have got to the level he got to being anything but stable.

We both have traits, personality idiosyncrasies, things inside of us from hurts in the past...actually my childhood was far less "stable" than his was. So why did he have a crisis? and not me?

I don't think it is necessary to examine under a microscope what are the FOO issues or what signs did they show of any Instability...this crisis is happening now and there are a variety of theories as to why. The thing is, we have to deal with someone who is opposite of who they once were which is confusing and challenging. Learning to cope with this, as with any other life changing event requires some understanding of the "issue" but also how to best navigate for our own health and sanity.

[Nas]

I think the most important thing Marvin said is that the core was unstable to begin with. That, imho, is the most important thing to realize. A completely stable and healthy person didn't blow up and therefore they will eventually reassemble as their  "old self." The core WAS unstable. The reasons for that are unique to each person, but if that's not addressed, even a "reassembled" person after crisis will still be to varying degrees unhealthy - again, just my opinion.

I spoke BusyBee ~1.5 years ago.  She went through MLC and was extremely helpful in trying to understand what goes on in the mind of an at home wallower with fantasy alienator. 

She said she had no FOO issues.  Good home.  Good upbringing.  She doesnt know why she did what she did, but she worked through it, and came out on the other side. 

This is another example of the group think I mentioned.  It seems like in the vast majority of cases there are FOO issues.  But in her case, there werent. 
So why the "core isnt intact" is not always clear. 

I wish we had the knowledge to understand the human brain better and help the MLCers out there.  It destroys families.

Not every person who suffers from psychological dis-ease has FOO issues. People with what they call idyllic childhoods can suffer from depression. When people talk about FOO issues, it is just one of several possible factors that might have contributed to a crisis.

I don't subscribe to "group think." I share my opinion and I don't speak for any group. In fact, my views often differ from the norm here. But I will say that one anecdote from one former poster detailing what she believes was an MLC even though she came from what in her subjective view was a good family, good upbringing isn't proof positive that some perfectly healthy people go into crisis. IMO, no one with a stable core behaves the way a person in crisis behaves, and if the core was unstable enough to cause such a chaotic fracture of the psyche, that won't simply be resolved without working through the reasons the core was unstable to being with. Again, IMO.

I read what Marvin wrote and thought 2 things...we all perhaps have some instability in our core and who would be considered a "completely stable and healthy person"?

Just want to point out that Marvin didn't say "completely stable and healthy person." I did.

And I agree, anyone can have issues to varying degrees, but, again, IMO, a fracture of the psyche like the kind that occurs in "MLC" is not merely "some instability." People with healthy cores are able to access tools and coping mechanisms. I won't venture into talking about brain chemistry because I'm not a neuroscientist, but I do believe that if any size population were routinely experiencing such a complete altering of brain chemistry on a level that causes them to act like pod people, the field of neuroscience would be so intrigued, they'd jump at the chance to study it (and they could, through MRIs and other means that would allow them to actually identify and study the altered brain chemistry, but they don't because this is all layman hypothesizing about what's happening during MLC.)

I don't think it is necessary to examine under a microscope what are the FOO issues or what signs did they show of any Instability...this crisis is happening now and there are a variety of theories as to why.

I very much agree with this. The reason why will never be known - even if the MLCer one day decides to share, their "why" will be different from someone else's "why" and it will only be their own perception of their experience, which they may or may not have a complete understanding of themselves.  Spending too much time asking why and trying to figure out the cause is a waste of LBS's time. It's focusing on the person in crisis and on a crisis the LBS can do nothing about.

[xyzcf]

Sorry Nas, I edited my post to reflect that you had written this.
 

I do believe that if any size population were routinely experiencing such a complete altering of brain chemistry on a level that causes them to act like pod people, the field of neuroscience would be so intrigued, they'd jump at the chance to study it (and they could, through MRIs and other means that would allow them to actually identify and study the altered brain chemistry, but they don't because this is all layman hypothesizing about what's happening during MLC.)

But who would fund such research? It seems that we accept that people change, marriages end, people divorce, we were never meant to live this long thus never meant to be in a marriage for our entire life....

And often the MLCer seems pretty normal to others, they wear their masks well.

[mcm64d]

I like the title. Any particular reason?

[KayDee]

I like the title. Any particular reason?

It's a saying in Ireland. And I like the sentiment. I have been working on patience, but also, trying to understand how sometimes, doing nothing is the right thing to do. To be still. To be still is actually doing something I feel. So, I'm trying to take time to look around me, to survey the landscape, to see where I may put my foot next. To respond, not react. And be grateful for the present.

[KayDee]

Wow, I see my new thread is filled up with a lively debate  As I was reading people's posts, I was wondering what we consider the 'core'. It's interesting to me, because I was talking to a friend about my experience recently, about the traumatic aftermath of BD. And I said 'but I'm OK, the core held'. So it's curious that this has come up in my thread. I'm thinking about what this means to me. I think, when I said it, I meant my sense of self. That I maintained a belief in my values and integrity. And I suppose that's why I earlier referenced identity crisis - I suspect this type of crisis happens when the identity lacks wholeness or is diffuse. But I also think there is something about the role our emotional responses play. These come from early attachment. If we are securely attached, we probably have a good set of coping mechanisms. If we are not securely attached, our emotional responses are less regulated, ergo our coping skills are less stable. IMO identity formation and attachment styles are related. I also believe that someone can have an insecure attachment despite a seemingly idyllic childhood. It's often impossible to know the cause, because attachment happens pre-language. An insecure bond is not always to do with long-term FOO dysfunction. For instance, post-natal depression can be a cause of an insecure attachment. Or a childhood illness. Neither the fault of the FOO. But, I suppose if insecure attachment relates to inter-generational trauma, as is common, then issues prevail and impact on the subsequent stages of development in childhood. It is immensely complicated.

I'm not sure if it helps me that much.  My H has had significant therapy in the past. He has insight. He is aware of his trauma. I cannot predict how (if) he will piece himself together again. I just really hope he can do it in a way that means he can have a life without such dis-ease. Actually, today I spent time with a friend who had a complete mental breakdown. He was hospitalised for a period. He's the loveliest guy - a work in progress, I think he would say. His life is different now, than it was before, but he has joy and contentment and he is kind and loving.

[UrsaMajor]

Hi KayDee,

I added a link to this thread to your old one. Otherwise, everything was fine.

Attaching here...

UM

[KayDee]

Thank you UM. Do I graduate from Serf to Novice 

[MomOfSteel]

Every time I try to get caught up your thread has many new posts.  I’ve been thinking about the cause of the fractured core as well lately.  I realize that though I may have lost myself (as in hobbies, knowing what I want to do with my life) I have never lost my core values.  I still make decisions based on those values and that sense of who I am and want to be.  The MLCer ex seems to be trying on new core values and grasping for something that fits.  Could the threatening divorce seems a bit like it might be a bid for you to beg him not to?  Going NC was smart and I wish I would have minimized my contact long before I did.  The dread at getting an email or a text or something of that nature still pops up now in small measure. 

[KayDee]

Hello MoS!

I’ve been thinking about the cause of the fractured core as well lately.  I realize that though I may have lost myself (as in hobbies, knowing what I want to do with my life) I have never lost my core values.  I still make decisions based on those values and that sense of who I am and want to be. 

Yes, I think it is something quite ineffable - a sense of self. Perhaps it comes with the feeling that we are lovable - lovable as we are. That gets shaken after BD, but it comes back, in my experience anyway.

Could the threatening divorce seems a bit like it might be a bid for you to beg him not to? 

I'm not sure I know. I suspect it is a form of self-destruction. Like lying in the bed he made and all that. And if he's going to lie in it, then he might as well try to make it more comfortable (i.e. not have a wife hanging around and have some funds ta boot). Honestly, right from the get go, the impression he gives is that I left him, I kicked him out. It's not just me who says this, it is others who encounter him. But, you know, shrug.  Because until he works on healing, it won't much matter what he says he wants one minute, because it will be different the next I think. I fell for that one last time   

[KayDee]

Gosh, I had to dig deep to find my thread. I don't journal much, as nothing much happens. I don't snoop either, so I have no idea what my H is up to. I've been following the thread on detachment with interest. I would say I am definitely detached from my H's antics and his emotions -a big part of that is because we are not really in contact much. So this is where distance plays it's part. But, from my end, I am still triggered and knocked off kilter when he does contact me. My very first thread was titled 'cold behaviours' because my H turned into a cold eyed stranger overnight. About 5 months in I had a period of touch and goes that lasted 6 or 7 months on and off, where he was very intimate, loving, hugging - misses this, missed that - and all kisses at the end of messages. Now he is back to the cold-man. He wants his share of the assets but does nothing to progress anything. Feels like he wants shot of me, but then?

Having lived this for a while now and with the benefit of reflection, I can safely say my H has very strong dependent tendencies, not a Dependent Personality Disorder, but definitely high up the spectrum (with a side order of avoidance). I suspect he has transferred his dependency onto OW2. As he cannot bear to be alone. Seems obvious to say that he has very maladaptive coping styles, but what I have come to realise is that, not only are these damaging to others, they also stop a person adapting (growing).  He's always had these tendencies, they just got cranked up to 11 when he fractured. I guess I find myself wondering if he will every 'grow' out of this.

Not sure why, tonight of all nights I am struggling with all this. I fear I am all out of emotional energy and compassion for him. Here I am, 20 months in, and I still find the coldness the hardest thing. What are others experience of this?

I do feel at the end of the road, but to walk away with some warmth would have been nice. Perhaps too much to ask in the world of MLC?

[One day at a time]

I'm not sure that strange feeling about how the spouse changed, their coldness, etc ever goes away..
I'm 6 and a half years out, I moved on with my life, I have no contact with xH and yet, there's a part of me that really struggles with how the marriage ended. I don't want my old life back, I'm a different person now but the fact that I'm not able to square that circle still bothers me and it probably always will. I guess I need to work on accepting that the strange feeling will stay with me forever. 

[MadLuv]

 I think for me it is just not how I have treated anyone in my life that has been significant.  When my daughter died I received a card in the mail from my high school boyfriend on how terribly sorry he was and that I have been on his mind so much.  He is happily married. He was just being kind to someone that meant something significant in his life. That’s how it should be. Somehow the fact that I can still depend on old boyfriends to care and have empathy and treat me with respect, but my H of 30 years can’t?

It is the hardest thing. I wish we could be on respectful friend terms like we agreed to do, but like my therapist said, what he has done and continues to do with his lies to you, the children and even his new wife and kids made that impossible from the beginning.  The only way would be for him to leave her and have accountability .  I held my breath for over 2 years for that. I have to breathe freely again. 

You are about to end the 2 years mark and the 3rd year is much better. NC  does help with detachment. It allows you to put yourself first. It definitely changed everything for me. We do it for us to heal only when we have no choice. 

[Biscuit]

I'm 25 months in, so time wise I'm very similar to you KD. Our situations are different because I have loads contact with W, which was mainly about the kids initially but now is also about other stuff in life. I'm regularly hit with a WTF reaction (from me) of her coldness, often straight after a WTF  regarding kindness or a selfless act from W. I, like you, find the coldness incredibly hard - but maybe because it's mixed in with doses of warm behaviour. As an example - the other day I was welcomed in to the house much the same as I was before BD - with a hot meal, a drink and a smile. I took D12 out for a little while and on returning I rang on the door and was met with a half smile / half snarl and a see you later. I struggle with this coldness too - it's like 2 separate people inhabit her body sometimes - but I guess I'm detached enough to not let it worry me too much - and the nice W is showing up way more than the cold one.

The whole MLC is pretty disarming though eh? I can't imagine a time in the future when I'm not left thinking WTF from time to time!

[KayDee]

Thank you OneDay, Madluv and Biscuit - so grateful for my virtual HS friends. Not sure why yesterday this all hit me again. I do wonder if these slumps, or down periods, mark for me a phase from one passage to the next. Not sure. I suppose in the geological era that is MLC I am not long after the big bang   - google tells me it is called Hadean, which sounds about right  So thank you for allowing me to roll over another WTF. Intellectually, I suspect we all know that the their behaviour is at best selfishly all about them, at worst, bat$h!te crazy damaging, but when you are in the orbit of it, it can still trigger the emotional parts. My therapist keeps reminding me that my H is a man trying to keep a lid on a whole load of bad bubbling up stuff - a stew of nastiness he added his own seasoning too with his bad choices - and that it will keep oozing out of the sides. That his 'formal', cold behaviour, is part of this 'lid' -  his 'keeping it together' face. I do know this, but it is hard to feel it. I know it's not personal, but wow, it often feels that way, right?  However I slice it, deliberate or not, the damage is  huge.

I know I need to break the bond that is the things we still formally share. Then contact will have less sting of control. But my, it is hard to do all this at once right? Keep enjoying your life, heal, exercise, keep a house maintained, function at your job, be a good friend and family member AND have a clear eye about separating the life stuff of a long marriage. My heart goes out to all of you with young children. I can't imagine how you add all that to the mix. But we all do come through, and I suppose that makes us, here, the people with healthy coping skills. We are lucky in this respect, we can adapt in a healthy way.

[titleholder]

Good to see your update. Our timelines are really similair too (I’m 24 months in) and I still remember reading your first post in the waitingroom of relationship therapy with my xH.

Everything you say I can relate to; the cold behaviours, the hot and cold, the total change of the persona but also in hindsight seeing an avoidend person who still isn’t capable of dealing with their emotions and bumps in life in a healthy kind of way.

I really admire the way you are dealing with everything and the journey you are on! You’re doing really well KD!

[KayDee]

Hello TH - I admire your strength and have been following along your journey with you. What's it like the other side of 24? Send encouraging smoke signals From the 20 Up Club (hey kids, that months, not years, like the S Club Seven of MLC) (other, newer, kid bands are available, I'm sure) I am definitely much, much calmer. Generally content with my life, lots of joy, lots going on. In fact, I would say that there are many new elements in my life now that I really love and would never have had if not for The Crisis. I keep hoping that I will no longer be triggered by messages from my H, because they set me back, and it feels like such a waste of emotional energy. Energy I could be putting into other people I care about. But maybe I am just impatient. If I didn't love him so deeply, maybe I wouldn't be triggered. That's the price of loving another, I suppose. And of feeling one's feelings, which is what the crisis person is burying. I do sometimes feel like burying my own head in the sand, it's exhausting. But I know the best move is to roll up my sleeves and get on with it  - time to Deal not Feel (need that on a t-shirt).

Yes, the avoidant person has a pattern built throughout life. Avoiding those bumps, until they eventually swerve into a tree.

[UrsaMajor]

What you'll likely find in retrospect is that the triggers are not as hard and the results not as long lasting as the used to be. This is part of the process.... The waves get less and less and you return to equilibrium faster.....

[titleholder]

Hahaha KD  ain’t no party like a 24 month party! (S-Club 7 people will understand this) Life on the other side is pretty similair from where you’re standing! But from what I’ve read I think we match well personality-wise and deal with the situation in the same kind of ways.

I recognize totally that everything triggers less but that sometimes our (x)H’s sweep us down with them when we’re in contact! Mostly I’m okay but I’ve had a trigger last weekend and was down this week, but I recover faster and faster so that means we’re in a healing path!

It’s beautifull to love so deeply, I do the same! I wouldn’t have it any other way. I was really afraid that this experience would lead to trust issues or not loving entirely again but I’m still (sort of) the same person I was. If I love someone I’m all in! It may lead to another heartbreak in the future but this experience also learned that I can survive that heartbreak. “Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.”

[Reinventing]

It may lead to another heartbreak in the future but this experience also learned that I can survive that heartbreak.

Yes, and this is true for all sorts of things, including new relationships. We can survive the worst of heartbrakes and survive. A really important and hard leason.

[KayDee]

Thank you all for the affirmative words. And I love the image of slowing dissipating waves.