[Onlythelonely]

Wow. You guys all really get this! ( DUH )..

Standing Strong, thanks for your response. I see that you have dealt with similar circumstances re your wife. To answer your questions: H has always been a "hard worker" and highly esteemed. However, in the beginning of our marriage this stemmed from getting a career off the ground and supporting a growing family. At that time he was also an excellent husband and very involved father. Family always came first and his decisions were made jointly in the best interest of all of us. Where he crossed the line to "workaholic" is questionable and probably impossible to put a finger on. It's a slippery slope.

I have read extensively on workaholism ( I recommend Barbara Killinger's writings on this if you haven't read them ). She has a "workaholic breakdown syndrome" theory that ties in well with MLC and Jung's work. I have talked to RCR about this quite a bit. It's essentially a chicken or egg scenario whether MLC or Workaholism came first, and ultimately it doesn't really matter. Until he hits rock bottom, nothing changes. ( Somewhere I read that for a workaholic, "rock bottom" is actually at the top.) I have recognized where I enabled this behavior and have worked very hard to stop.

Treasur- You have succinctly summed up exactly what I have been feeling, thank you for helping me untangle all of that. Yes, I do feel that I am at a crossroads of knowing that I cannot continue to do what I have been doing, for my own personal mental and physical health. Someone on these boards used the phrase "chewing my arm off" to get out of the situation, and that's exactly how I feel. I don't WANT to end contact, but I have to. It's taken a lot of starts and stops to get to this point. His monstering last week was textbook narcissism ( through text ) and I know I have to protect myself from that now.
And yes, there are times that I want to scream from the rooftops for someone to please look at what he is doing, but IRL most would wonder if I was equally as crazy for staying. I am speaking to an IC, and I have two friends who have been in similar situations that listen without judgment that I am very thankful for. I am open to suggestions re delving into trauma responses and decision making. The further out I get the more easily I can tease out whether my responses to his actions are a result of emotional blackmail/manipulation, or of my own personal values, but wow has that taken a while, and I am just at the tip of the iceberg.

As far as the kids-they are my priority, and tied with that is my own mental well being so that I can support them.  So to clarify that, intellectually I know that it is the best thing for them to have a relationship with him. ( actually Treasur you make a good point if in reality H is not healthy, is that statement true? But I don't have control either way ). If it IS the best thing moving forward, I recognize that. It's the part where I feel jealous and hurt by my own kids when they do spend time with him that I really hate about myself. ESPECIALLY since he does not allow them to talk about their feelings with him at all. From my vantage point it's a little like they are saying, "Oh, dad lied for years and blew up the family? What a complete A**hat. We hate him. You should totally divorce him. See ya later mom, we're going on a fishing trip with him for the weekend". I hope that makes sense and does not make me sound like a horrible person. It's discombobulating. I need advice on how not to let it spill over to my kids while at the same time setting the example that what he is doing is SO wrong.

KayDee- I think I hit upon a lot of your points above as well. Again, read Killinger's work if you can. It has helped me immensely.  I have also read up on detachment from an Al-Anon perspective and replacing" workaholic" with "alcoholic" just about sums it up. Yes I would say I am H's best friend. Throughout this whole crisis, when I allowed him to, he cycled and returned to me. He does 70 percent of the talking when we are together, and I know he has no one else he confides in about his life. ( He can talk about work with work ppl, though). I have also seen him change from 2-3 years ago when he completely ignored me almost all the time, to actively listening now when I do talk, when we have spent time together. This is a turn back to the relationship we have historically had where we talked everything out, problem solved and found joy in dissecting the events of every day life. ( Also the reason that him saying "I don't see us getting back together " after a 2.5 hour dinner where we talked about things like old times was so shocking ) I also know he is trying, in his own way, to maintain a relationship with the kids. I liked what you said about your friends " belief in you, believed you". That is very true. The two friends I have shared with also have never met H, so they are not biased based on his normal good guy persona. Thank you for this input.

[Algo]

or does something really stupid like quit to sell timeshares in Antarctica
-SS

Hehe It's so amazing that they actually do this kind of stuff and no-one is there to tell them how stupid such a behavior is... This phrase really got a kick out of me, thanks for the laugh, I really needed it today!

[xyzcf]

Workaholic Breakdown Syndrome....I search this briefly this am ...even after so many years, it struck many many truths for me. I always knew his "mistress" was work (and then he found a real life mistress).....and I had accepted during our marriage that this was what his passion was...and he was highly, highly successful.

I was proud of him and independent enough to have my own career, my role as a mother, a yoga practice....we moved 7 times for his work.

Friends would ask me why I would agree to keep moving for his job, I believed that since this was much more important to him than my job was to me, ( not to mention how much more money he made)and he was very good to me in many many ways....that is was ok. Indeed, I had some amazing experiences and the opportunity to learn about other countries and cultures.

I read, but couldn't find it to quote here, that workaholics were 50 times more likely to divorce.

And then the reasons for the "addiction"...I look forward to reading further.

Thanks for bringing this topic up.

As we have always said, it isn't us. But it certainly can destroy us in the process.....fortunately we rebuild and heal and find some peace knowing that our values about marriage and family were never compromised.

We left our 17 year old daughter behind and moved to another country. She did not even spend summer holidays with us, for she had no friends or connections to the places we moved to...she was totally on her own and I never imagined that from the time she was 17, I would have only a couple of days a year to see her....I never dreamed he would end our marriage and so that was a sacrifice I made for him. We moved further and further away from her and our family...6 hours by car, then 4 hours by plane, then 16 hours by plane. Our daughter did an amazing job of "growing up" on her own but this...this kills me, for her, for me..it never ever ever should have been this way....had I known......this breaks me more than anything else...I choose him over her.

This "syndrome" also explain why they do not "feel" or have any empathy..and I know that there are several other posters on HS who were married to a "workaholic" and we all knew didn't we?

[sachat3]

Please forgive me if I overstep here as I am not fully caught up on your story. However, what was your H’s early life like? Were funds lacking? Could that be a trigger for his workaholic ness.

I only ask because for clington (my MLCer) a huge trigger is his dad. He’s now moved into working in the same industry his dad did. He earns average money blah blah. But that’s trigger for him. Whereas for me, my mother sounds similar to your H. So growing up I had lots of luxuries  but that meant I never saw my mum.   I could go two three weeks at a time without seeing her. It was hard. Maybe work/earning money is a trigger?

Not that it makes it okay at all, but I always think once you can see WHY they do something. It helps a lot.

[MadLuv]

As far as the kids-they are my priority, and tied with that is my own mental well being so that I can support them.  So to clarify that, intellectually I know that it is the best thing for them to have a relationship with him. ( actually Treasur you make a good point if in reality H is not healthy, is that statement true? But I don't have control either way ). If it IS the best thing moving forward, I recognize that. It's the part where I feel jealous and hurt by my own kids when they do spend time with him that I really hate about myself. ESPECIALLY since he does not allow them to talk about their feelings with him at all. From my vantage point it's a little like they are saying, "Oh, dad lied for years and blew up the family? What a complete A**hat. We hate him. You should totally divorce him. See ya later mom, we're going on a fishing trip with him for the weekend". I hope that makes sense and does not make me sound like a horrible person. It's discombobulating. I need advice on how not to let it spill over to my kids while at the same time setting the example that what he is doing is SO wrong

What I found in my situation was that the difference for the kids is they are seeing this is happening to YOU not to them.  So, even though your H actions may go against your family Morals and how they were raised and they can tell you their opinions on what you should do they are not fully connecting it is being done to them also. Now, that can be partially true or even more. I know when I stepped back and just allowed my kids to have their relationship with their father they started to see his actions did and were affecting them also in more ways then just leaving the family. That he was in fact being emotionally immature, lying etc. to them as well.

And we…. We are in the middle. Wanting to save their relationship with their parent and also wanting in some way for them to be on “our” side if they have to choose. I know I made so many excuses for my kids father. Then I realized it’s not my job to save their father or their relationship with him. My kids slowly but surely saw his behavior was not just saved for me, but that for what ever reason he had changed and who their Dad was , well he was not who he was now. So, then they had to choose what they were willing to accept from him. I honestly did not want them to see their Dad differently, but now that they do it actually is a better place to be. Healthier place for everyone as they are also not ignoring his behavior and he is being held to some accountability by his own actions. I can now just be their parent without be offended by their interactions and relationship with him in any way. The kids are in the same start of chaos we are. Once the dust starts to settle everything that is happening starts to come to light and EVERYONE sees how they are personally affected. In the beginning we are all just in out own selfish savior mode. Wanting life to be normal and trying to avoid what is happening, but it can only be avoided for so long. We don’t have to get anyone to see what is happening as eventually they will see it all. That has been my experience at least.

[OffRoad]

Take this as MOO.
It has always made me crazy that my xh got to lie to me, lie about me, gaslight me, cheat on me, steal from me, verbally abuse me and abandon me and my adult kids appear to see that as just fine with them. But the truth is that they know Mom will always be here for them while Dad could just decide he doesn't like something they do and walk away from them just like he did me. That has got to be hard to deal with, always wondering if they will become the "bad" person in their fathers eyes.

Kids seem to come mostly wired to love their parents, even if the parents are aholes. I have a friend who thinks love is being treated like garbage because that is how her parents treated her. My D complains about the ahole things her father does then says "It's just how he is". 

The hardest thing I ever had to do, and that is because my kids were adults, is to get good with the fact that I cannot control anyone else's action except my own. If my kids wanted to spend their life working at McDonald's, I may not like it or think it's wise, but it's not my choice. Same with the relationship with their father.

Next up, opportunities will arise where you get to speak your piece. You GET to have emotions, you GET to feel bad that you did the best you could and an a$$hat just got to treat you like crap and it's OK with everyone else. All being silent gets you, imo, is a tag that says "walk on me, ask me how". I don't mean you should rail on about the unfairness if the world, but the opportunity for a simple "when you act as if what your father has done is normal and just fine with you, it makes me concerned that you you will think that is OK to do to someone else" might present itself with your kids.  I, being me, also added "Expect that if you do such a thing, I will likely side with the other party." It was actually a great talk.

Finding your boundaries is hard but necessary.  You need them for everyone, including your kids. My kids tell me little of anything they do with their father. Works for us.

[Onlythelonely]

xyzcf- I was the same as you, when I started really reading about workaholism from an addiction perspective, many of the puzzle pieces fell into place for me.  My H is brilliantly talented, and I thought I was being a supportive spouse by picking up the slack at home, forgoing family time, and eventually basically being a married single parent. At some point it crossed over into enabling his addiction. H also used some gaslighting as he entered MLC for real, telling me that I had no idea what it was like to have a successful career (I became a SAHM), or could understand the pressure he was under to maintain his success, and that we all benefited him from him working so much-essentially that I wasn't entitled to an opinion regarding his work. It is insidious, and only in hindsight can I see the part I played in enabling him.  I'm glad you found some truths in this to your own situation.  Please don't blame yourself, but find some validation and answers in this theory/explanation in order to help you move forward. It's definitely hard to grasp you've never been there.  The turning off of emotions ( Killinger states the "Feeling" function no longer informs judgment ) surely parallels what many have seen in MLC, so like I said before, whether workaholism or MLC came first with H, I'm not sure. Many definitions I read could be describing one in the same thing. Again this is just my experience with MLC, and not all MLCer's are workaholics. YMMV.

sachat3- sorry I realized I missed responding to your first post. I haven't posted much in the way of background purely for privacy's sake, and I feel like I have a handle on what lead up to MLC, so in my first post I just gave a brief overview. From what I have read, workaholics develop primarily because either they need to be perfect and gain approval from FOO, or to over - correct for a lack of resources they did not get from FOO. H definitely is over-correcting. The key take away is that while they over-correct, they become ADDICTED to the adrenaline, success, and monetary gains. So even when things are "corrected", they cannot stop what they are doing. It is also an addiction sanctioned by society, unlike drugs or alcohol. It is also tricky in that it is a behavioral addiction like shopping or anorexia, in which you cannot completely stop what you are doing ( you HAVE to shop, eat and work, where you can completely abstain from gambling, alcohol and drugs ).

MadLuv- Yikes- your post me helped a ton.  (I want to quote your whole last paragraph but I don't know how to quote yet). Thank you. They do see this as being done TO ME. And I think Treasur mentioned the "healthy narcissism" of 20 year olds, and lack of life experiences, that they can't fully see that it is being done " to them " as well. It's hard to step back and just watch it play out. However, things seem to be playing out so fast and furious here that I can't post fast enough, but just yesterday I had convos with 2/3 AGAIN and it is becoming more evident that they are seeing how messed up he is. Our middle child has been the least verbal about all of this, trying to stay neutral, but yesterday he and I had a conversation and he basically unloaded everything he has been thinking. He is VERY observant, and VERY upset with H, and sees the motives of H's behavior with all 3 kids ( there has been a lot of monetary bribing going on with H for the kids attention ).  He is disgusted with H, and at the same time still frustrated with my stand. So your post was spot on, and almost in real time- unbelievable. In trying to stay above water myself, I wasn't even really thinking that they might need more time for the "dust to settle" to make their own judgment call. I wanted them to get to the place that I am without them taking the time I needed to get there.  Makes total sense. I think also I recognized a big part of my own responsiveness is trying to make sure that all 3 know this is NOT OK on any level, and now that I know they truly understand this, I'm a little more comfortable just letting it play out.

OffRoad-I agree, a lot of what I have worked on in the last 5 years is :

1. Letting go of control - not only of H, but of my kids choices as well. That includes not jumping in and fixing everyone's problems.

2. Reacting - A VERY hard lesson for me was learning not to react to anyone's bone headed decisions ( mostly H's ). It took a long time to realize that when I reacted, then they could shift the focus to my poor reaction instead of the results of their poor decision, if that makes sense.

3. Patience- this is a work in progress, always. And as my response to MadLuv above just shows that I need to keep working on this with my kids.

Again, it's a fine line to describe, but my kids KNOW that I have been treated like garbage, and verbalize it to me. It's MY reaction, to their reaction to their D, that brought me here.  I agree that I need to be able to state my opinion/values to the kids, but doing that without triangulating them against H felt almost impossible. ( maybe because of his actions, it is impossible?).  Finding my voice in this and remaining the stable, sane parent that the kids know they can count on for honesty is very important to me.  That's very hard to do when you are trying to protect their relationship with H and also "undo" my own gaslighting from H that I should not be talking to them about this at all. It is honestly crazy making.

[Treasur]

That's very hard to do when you are trying to protect their relationship with H and also "undo" my own gaslighting from H that I should not be talking to them about this at all. It is honestly crazy making.

What a very good précis of your challenge. 
With the caveat that we really do get that this stuff is so much easier to post than to enact….
I wonder if your précis holds the kernel of the answer to your own question? (And how often does that urn out to be how it works, right?)

That's very hard to do when you are trying to protect their relationship with H

So, time to stop.
Lay it down as the practically impossible task that is which is in reality just not in your hands. Or your job.
Hand the relationship back to your young adult kids and your h to figure out collectively and individually. And accept that they may not, or not now, or not in the way you think they should.
Model the kind of loving respect to your kids that you want to receive. Trust them to figure it out regardless while knowing that they have your support or listening ear if they ask for it.

and also "undo" my own gaslighting from H that I should not be talking to them about this at all.

Well, time to lay that down too.
He left and chose a life that does not include you currently and for quite a long time now. His opinion now about almost everything you do, think or feel is no longer relevant as it once was. He does not warrant the voice or vote you once perhaps gave him. I would humbly suggest that you blow mental raspberries at the very idea that he has any right at the moment to require or demand anything of you at all or have any voice in your relationship with your children. I give you permission to use ruder words in your head if that helps 
And perhaps time to get honest with yourself about the extent of any self-gaslighting you may be doing. Bc imho that’s a real thing  or it was for me  Is some bit of you afraid of what will happen if you go against his ‘instructions’? Is some bit of you thinking that you will reduce the likeliehood of reconnection if you ignore his wants or that there is more chance of his return if you are ‘nice’ or compliant or agree with him? I don’t know the answer to that but you probably do in your gut (and you are under no obligation to share it here) but part of washing out the effects of gaslighting imho is to get as honest as we can with ourselves about some of the bits of our own thoughts and assumptions that might be a bit messy, even squirmy to look at.

[xyzcf]

We do not have crystal balls....one of the main "symptoms" of MLC is how totally off guard we were with what was to come.

Please don't blame yourself, but find some validation and answers in this theory/explanation in order to help you move forward.

My daughter and I talked about my feeling "I choose him over her" yesterday. She is amazing and so very bright, and did not at all consider that I have abandoned her. We seldom discuss her dad but when we do, she has some insight into him that I am "blind" to.

She has also encountered similar changes in bosses she has had over the year as they rose in power and influence in their careers.

That's very hard to do when you are trying to protect their relationship with H

So, time to stop.
Lay it down as the practically impossible task that is which is in reality just not in your hands. Or your job.
Hand the relationship back to your young adult kids and your h to figure out collectively and individually. And accept that they may not, or not now, or not in the way you think they should.
Model the kind of loving respect to your kids that you want to receive. Trust them to figure it out regardless while knowing that they have your support or listening ear if they ask for it.

I agree with onlythelonely regarding trying to protect their relationship with their MLC parent.

We are a family of three. He had a crisis and our family was shattered by this. I don't believe he choose to have a crisis and some of the information in "workaholic breakdown syndrome " and their childhoods fit my husband's childhood.

In this respect, the LBSer is in charge. You can make it comfortable or impossible for your children by allowing certain family times to be spent together. By showing your children what agape and unconditional love is.

It isn't easy and comes with a price. My daughter and I revisit this and what works is to include him in times when we get together for holidays and even vacation time.

Perhaps it is from my work with abused and neglected children, who no matter how bad their parent is, they still wish to be with their parent. The Federal initiative "Families First" tries to keep children in their homes with services rather than remove them to foster care. This has been shown as "best practices".

The book : Primal Loss. The Now Adult Children of Divorce Speak" by Leila Miller showed me the damage that occurs among adult children, especially if they lose contact with one of their parents.

Many disagree with me but I do see MLC as a "dis-ease" and if he had a stroke, a psychiatric illness or some other addiction....I would help my daughter accept and understand him. Perhaps that comes from having a father who was a POW in a Japanese prison camp during WWII, with a whole lot of PTSD..but we were a family..and I see this in my husband as well..the roots of this family, he can never sever, nor does he seem to want to.

I have become strong enough that contact with him doesn't shake me....I expect nothing for myself from him but there can be benefit in "paving the way". To make things calm and peaceful as possible...not because you can change the outcome of your marriage, but you can bring together what was good about this family unit and  find a different way of living within the constraints that his/her mlc caused.

It is important to  me that my daughter understand "love one another as I have loved you" which is the bases of our Christian faith.

Like everything else, it will not work for everyone but it can for some.

And yes, not every MLCer is a workaholic...but many do have an "addiction" of some sort or another.

[Onlythelonely]

Treasur and xyzcf-  I had to sit on both of your responses for a little bit to think about a reply. I don't think we are disagreeing on this, per se.

Treasur- you are stating that it is not my job to facilitate the relationship between my H and the adult kids. Certainly I can't control the outcome of where any of those relationships end up and I can't make anyone have, or not have, a relationship.

xyzcf-you are stating that protecting the relationship between H and adult kids is important for the kids well being.

I guess having thought a little bit about it, the LBS DOES have influence over those factors and has to be involved.  On a wide spectrum, if on one hand a LBS could stay completely silent about the MLC antics to the kids, never giving an opinion, input, facts, guidance, etc,  (essentially gaslighting them ), then the kids can't base their relationship with MLC'er on MLCer's real life choices, and there is also risk that they find out anyway and resent the LBS for witholding info. On the other hand, the LBS could go scorched earth, bad mouth the MLCer, alienate the kids from MLCer, remain bitter and angry, also causing ( probably more ) damage to the kids relationship with the MLCer and the LBS.

So are we discussing the middle of the spectrum? Where everyone agrees that it is in the kids best interest to have a relationship with MLCer if that is possible to do in a healthy way, and it is the LBS responsibility to be honest and supportive with the kids, but not try to control the outcome of their relationships with MLCer? Then the discussion has to involve how much "honesty" the LBS shares with kids for them to make healthy decisions, without triangulating. My own personal IC made the observation that I have shared about 5% of this ordeal with my kids. I am protecting my kids from information that I believe would be damaging to them, and in that decision also protecting their relationship with their H. H would say because I shared 5%, I am damaging their relationship with H.  I don't think that there is a formula that would tie this up nicely, but it is interesting to discuss and share ideas about.

Treasur -  I laughed out loud at your "blowing mental raspberries" comment. Thank you! Yes that's about where I am at the moment. Untangling from 27 years of joint parenting decision making and spending a long time walking on eggshells so that I could "pave the way" and hopefully increase the likelihood of his return. I have a very close friend with an ex husband that is a malignant narcissist, and I am now using her example of how she deals with her exH in how I am managing my H in monster. I was reading another thread today where you helped someone with trauma recovery and may PM you for more info if that's ok?

xyzcf- Yay! I'm so glad you had that talk with your daughter. I'm happy I could contribute something that helped you. If you read more about "workaholic breakdown syndrome" and want to discuss, let me know. I absolutely believe that MLC is a dis-ease, and have stated as such to all 3 kids. They absolutely don't buy into this yet, but maybe someday. I am no where near ready to extend the olive branch to him, nor do I think I should atm because he is still cycling. But I admire what you have done to preserve your family unit. I will also look into Miller book you recommended. Thank you!