Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Enough on March 12, 2019, 09:45:12 AM
-
Hello All,
I haven't posted in a while, well, because I would need to reach author status to recap all that has gone on since November and I don't have the time or the strength at this point to write that novel-- let's just say he has been all 4 seasons over and over and over and over again since November, but now, it's a little different.
Last major event was about 7 weeks ago, when he declared he was jumping a plane across the pond in 2 days to go to her. I said go ahead, but we are done and she will never get to be near our son-- she has nothing to do with him and is only 12 years older than he is (he is 9) and is not a good person for him to be around (my opinion counts in this-- Who thinks it's ok date a married man with a young child???-- NOT A GOOD PERSON). He didn't get on the plane- told me to take his keys and cried like a very small child.
All replay activities have bit the dust (only gym was with me, he followed me to exercise room once and went through the motions as I worked out). Stopped taking all medication. He wears sweatpants 24-7. I think he has showered 1 time in 4 weeks. He rarely comes out of his room during the day. He chain smokes. He "works" (not sure what he is doing) all the time. He either completely ignores the kid and I, or loads the kid up with junk food. His conversations with me have been brief and about nothing. We watch TV (as in ALL 7 seasons of Game of Thrones so far...) at night in "my" room (AKA our old bedroom)-- I fall asleep and I wake up the next morning and he is back to his cave.
I, on the other hand, am doing MUCH better. I don't know if that is good for him, but it is good for me-- I don't seem to care that much any more-- I mean I care, I have been on suicide watch with him-- I check for a pulse, but that is about it. I am kinda liking just me and then just me and the kiddo-- far less drama. I work, I exercise, I read (like a real book, not cr@p on crisis- haha), I go to my therapy, I meditate, I sleep (this is recently new and AWESOME-- I just PASS OUT), I hang out with friends, I hang out with my Sunshine (the kiddo).... Just LIVIN'....(for those Dazed and Confused fans out there...)
Anyway-- my question is-- what did/ does liminality look like in "real life"-- I have read all the "betwixt and between" and lots of other philosophical things-- but what does that really look like? Is this it, or should I get him to a Depression Clinic? I DO NOT want my child to witness a suicide attempt or worse.... and yes, I am VERY aware this could just be another cycle...
STATS-- Me- almost 45, Him- almost 44, together 23 years, married 19. Moved upstairs 4/2016, ILYBNIL 8/2017, girl discovered by me 5/2018, moved out to hotel 11/2018, back at house 12/2018, run away attempt #2- didn't go 12/29/2018.....
And on an odd note, he just brought me eggs and bacon??? at 11:30am-- I am in crazy land, I tell you! (We both work from home on Tuesdays). Just walked in my office and handed me a plate-- I said "thank you" and he left. WTH????
I appreciate all the feedback-- you guys have done so much for me, you don't even know!
Enough
-
From what you described this sounds more like OW depression/withdrawal which is still part of replay.
-
Maybe I missed it in your post, but is he still talking with ow? If he has had any recent contact then from what I understand it can not be ow withdraw. I think your answer will clarify this.
-
Maybe I missed it in your post, but is he still talking with ow? If he has had any recent contact then from what I understand it can not be ow withdraw. I think your answer will clarify this.
Good point.
-
In all honesty, I don't know. Last word of her was one day after he was supposed to hop a plane-- which was actually 1/29/2019-- typo in my first post. We don't talk much, and if we do, it's about nothing. I am plumb worn out and would rather not talk about her any more. I am trying to focus on me and my young child, but I guess since I posted this today, I am still focusing a little too much on him. I need to drop the d@mn rope. Thanks for the feedback.
-
In all honesty, I don't know. Last word of her was one day after he was supposed to hop a plane-- which was actually 1/29/2019-- typo in my first post. We don't talk much, and if we do, it's about nothing. I am plumb worn out and would rather not talk about her any more. I am trying to focus on me and my young child, but I guess since I posted this today, I am still focusing a little too much on him. I need to drop the d@mn rope. Thanks for the feedback.
I think you are making a good point too.
These things are best decided looking in the rear view mirror.
Not as you are doing it.
So down the road you may look back at this time and then you will know the answer.
-
Liminality is different for each MLCer. It can look like what you wrote. Liminality is overt depression what you wrote about your husband's current behaviour is overt depression.
But, for now, it is impossible to know if it is Liminality or just a stop in Replay.
It could be OW depression/withdrawal. Time will tell what it is.
-
Good and interesting question Enough. I have been thinking the same, a lot during XW's MLC.
I have lots of exprerience (trough work especially) about depression and it has so many faces, even when overt, that I would imagine it being difficult to point in liminality as well. In many cases anyway. Maybe it is about apparent change in spouse in some way or something else? In my case, my XW has been the master of the projection, so I could imagine if she ever hit liminality, maybe the change in that could be visible and point liminality.
Interesting thread, hopefully gets lots of posts!
-
Best description I have read is lawprofessor's posts about her friend J.
She was clear both about how awful it was for him and how important it was for her to say/do little but keep her own boundaries solid.
-
I think for me liminality began right after OW withdrawal. They were 2 very distinct phases in hindsight. OW withdrawal was very overt. He told me how much pain he was in all the time he would cry about what he was losing (he said it was the loss of the section of the company OW worked in- but in hindsight I know it was the high he was getting from her). When Liminality hit he went quiet, very very quiet. As a clinger this was something new. He tried several times to go back into replay because it felt so much better for him. His efforts failed because of the boundaries I put in place. He had another awakening about 3 months into liminality when I told him to get help or move out. One of my sons witnessed his breakdown and told him he needed to leave me alone. I believe now this is what started him out of the tunnel. And with that brought many months of cycling.
Don’t know if it helps. Like Anjae stated it is different for each individual. I’m seeing so much more in hindsight then I did at the moment.
Hang in there Enough and give that little boy all that you have. You are doing really well for having a live in MLCer, it’s no easy task facing it on a daily basis.
-
Best description I have read is lawprofessor's posts about her friend J.
She was clear both about how awful it was for him and how important it was for her to say/do little but keep her own boundaries solid.
Hi Treasur,
Do you have a link to this? I'm very curious! Thanks!
-
Hi Shopgirl-- I was curious as well-- you can find her posts by going to the Members link at the top and searching for the name lawprofessor, no space, then click on her posts-- the name of her thread that I started reading was "Law Professor's First Year since BD or God has a Wicked Sense of Humor." This woman is an absolute ROCK STAR. She has been through the ringer and then some, and I have only read a very small part of her posts. She has 2 MLCers-- one is her husband and I about fell out of my chair reading that one, and the one that is mentioned about being a good example of actual liminality is "J" her childhood friend that she has watched and supported during his MLC-- I am only one thread in and I am floored. lawprofessor-- you are a strong woman and I absolutely admire you courage and tenacity.
-
Thank you, Enough! I’ll look her up!
-
I still can't find it would you mind linking the thread only with her description of liminality thanks
-
Few questions or more like thoughts I have had (and to bump this thread up)
If there isn't a stage that can be seen as liminality, in several years, like any forms of overt depression be seen that are distincly different from replay cycling, which is more likely option:
- it never wasn't MLC after all?
- replay is going on for a very long period?
If midlife spouse seems to be happy with her/his choices and it has been years since divorce or the point she/he left LBS, obviously it would at least to me rise a question "was I wrong all the time, what if it WAS about me in the end"
No one has correct answer I guess and my intention is not question MLC theories, no way. But I know that these are kind of questions many other may have too and liminality is so much more rare topic than replay for obvious reasons. That's why I hope this thread would get more attention.
-
Few questions or more like thoughts I have had (and to bump this thread up)
If there isn't a stage that can be seen as liminality, in several years, like any forms of overt depression be seen that are distincly different from replay cycling, which is more likely option:
- it never wasn't MLC after all?
- replay is going on for a very long period?
If midlife spouse seems to be happy with her/his choices and it has been years since divorce or the point she/he left LBS, obviously it would at least to me rise a question "was I wrong all the time, what if it WAS about me in the end"
No one has correct answer I guess and my intention is not question MLC theories, no way. But I know that these are kind of questions many other may have too and liminality is so much more rare topic than replay for obvious reasons. That's why I hope this thread would get more attention.
Thanks for bumping this thread. I have a couple of thoughts/questions. You mentioned “it’s been years since divorce.” Do you really see what is truly going on with your ex? How do you know overt depression is not present. I believe they can still wear a mask. Another question, maybe the spouse feels as if there is no way to turn back to you since he/she divorced you. Sometimes the shame and guilt is to much that they just leave you alone because they have hurt you so much.
You have great questions and it seems you are still standing for your marriage. How long ago was BD?
-
Hi hope, thanks for commenting.
I am not seeing myself as stander anymore, and I didn't refer to my journey in "years since divorce" either. I am more like interested in this subject in genereal and for some part yes, because I like the idea that I could one day get answers to my XW's case. One of the reasons I keep asking "why" is that I have divorced twice and in my 1st D I saw myself as one to blame (though it was also about my 1st W's QLC I think) and for this second one, I don't. My XW has gone trough all the 1st stages, even the pre MLC phase with very obvious triggers etc that I haven't really doubt if it is MLC or not. But atm as she decided to get engaged with OM, I started to think that maybe this is excactly what she was after and what makes her happy. If that was the case, then wouldn't it be something totally different than I ever thought it would?
My BD was 2 years ago and divorce happened at Jan 2018, not very long time ago, things just happened very fast in my case.
-
Yes yours did go fast. I forget it's only been 2 years for you.
I highly doubt you would see any kind of movement with your XW this soon, Silver.
She's most likely still in replay and trying anything to feel better inside. Hey maybe if I marry him it will do the trick. ::)
Remember they wear masks.
-
Few questions or more like thoughts I have had (and to bump this thread up)
If there isn't a stage that can be seen as liminality, in several years, like any forms of overt depression be seen that are distincly different from replay cycling, which is more likely option:
- it never wasn't MLC after all?
- replay is going on for a very long period?
If midlife spouse seems to be happy with her/his choices and it has been years since divorce or the point she/he left LBS, obviously it would at least to me rise a question "was I wrong all the time, what if it WAS about me in the end"
No one has correct answer I guess and my intention is not question MLC theories, no way. But I know that these are kind of questions many other may have too and liminality is so much more rare topic than replay for obvious reasons. That's why I hope this thread would get more attention.
As I understand it...although happy to be corrected...liminality is a stage of deep overt depression. The bit after 'oh my God, what have i done' and 'OMG, what a mess...and I am still not happy, I have no idea what to do'. If you live with them or have regular contact, you will see them withdraw into depression and it is best to leave them be. (Maybe Acorn or others with live ins might comment if they have seen this.) from what I have read, they fight against going there bc it is horrific. I guess some come out with decisions that they can't go back so have to dig in more or whatever new happy they have chosen, so as LBS we simply might never see it or know. But liminality does seem to be the very deep pit they have been running so hard to avoid, plus they have the damage they have caused on top of it, so if they get there I would imagine it would be pretty grim.
I guess it depends how much contact you have as to whether you see it or not. If you don't? Well I guess either of these could be true or it could just be that they keep the mask firmly on with you, I suppose. But even if it wasn't MLC, just standard cheating stuff, it still wasn't about you Silver imho. Your w had a bunch of different choices; she just chose poorly at the expense of her h and family and put everything on one bet...
-
LP (Lawprofessor) did not document her friend J Liminality is a single post or thread. She documented it in several posts on her threads or other threads.
Liminality is when, for High Energy MLCers, the cover depression turns into full blown over depression. It tends to come with, or right after, rock bottom. Like all MLC stages, aside from Reintegration and advanced Rebirth, it will still have signs of the previous stage, Separation where Replay is included.
Liminality will not be identical for every single MLCer.
It may take many years, over a decade even, for a MLCer to reach Liminality. Each MLCer is different.
RCR articles and blog posts on Liminality and Limbo:
https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_liminality.html - MLC Phase 2: Liminality
https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_liminality_transition-is-liminal.html - Transition is Liminal
https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_liminality_when-is-liminality.html - When is Liminality?
https://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/midlife-crisis-and-infidelity/liminality-questions-answers/ - Liminality: Questions & Answers
https://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/midlife-crisis-and-infidelity/intermittent-liminality/ - Intermittent Liminality
https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_progress_back-limbo-forward.html - Back-Limbo-Forward--Repeat
https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_progress_back-limbo-forward_limbo.html - Limbo
https://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/midlife-crisis-and-infidelity/limbo-the-threshold-between-phases/ - Limbo: The Threshold Between Phases
-
Thank you so much for the thoughts and ideas. It's like watching a train wreck so far...wherever he is right now- he tried to go back to replay behaviors yesterday and today he's awful- mean and nasty. I hate him today for acting worse than my 9 year old ever has- he's a giant 6 year old that had his candy taken away. I can't stand that my son has to deal with him flipping all over the place. I just want to scream, but instead,I did all the normal after work things, got kid in bed, worked out and am about to scrap out- had ENOUGH of the insanity today!
-
Liminality is when, for High Energy MLCers, the cover depression turns into full blown over depression. It tends to come with, or right after, rock bottom. Like all MLC stages, aside from Reintegration and advanced Rebirth, it will still have signs of the previous stage, Separation where Replay is included.
Liminality will not be identical for every single MLCer.
It may take many years, over a decade even, for a MLCer to reach Liminality. Each MLCer is different.
That's exactly why it is useful to hear experiences from LBSs. It is rather comprehensible stage in theory but very much less discussed in practice.
Replay is of course the stage whilst people start to seek help and read forums etc so it's logical.
-
Looking back, all I can say is that the only visible and unmistakable aspects of MLC were his crazy Replay interspersed with tear-filled sulking periods.
I tried to guess what stage H was in, but the only thing my diagnostic efforts taught me was that I saw what I wanted to see. I’d thought too many times that I saw ‘liminality’ and the infamous ‘rock bottom’. ::)
The following is my humble view based on my very limited experience of one MLCer and one LBS.
What can certify the authenticity of liminality? By what follows it. Rebirth. Not temporary fog clearing but more or less sustained improvement in clarity over a long period. Sure, some MLCers may get stuck in liminality, though I have read that the most likely stage in which they can get stuck is Replay.
I think I can certify my H sane now but I still have no idea if and when liminality happened. See, my hindsight is as slow in coming as MLCer’s progress through the tunnel. Sigh...
I say leave MLCer to it, liminality or not. Either they work through their issues or they don’t.
-
An interesting snippet posted some years ago by UK Stander that I tripped over...
Here's a bit of Terrence Real that I can't resist posting - relates to addiction/self-medication. The book fell open at the page, so....
"Like most of the depressed men I have encountered, Billy had a history of sustained childhood injury. The bridge that links injury in childhood, and depression in manhood, is violence. Psychological violence lies at the core of the traditional socialisation of boys in our cutlture... (text ommitted)...... The violence they are exposed to as children takes up residence in their minds as adults. Overtly depressed men like Billy are frozen, endlessly rehearsing repetitions of pain and despair. If overtly depressed men are paralyzed, men who are covertly depressed*, as i was, cannot stand still. They run, desperately trying to outdistance shame by medicating their pain, pumping up their tenuous self-esteem, or, if all else fails, inflicting their torture on others. Overt depression is violence endured. Covert depression is violence deflected."
-
Leaving aside why someone may be depressed or having a MLC, men often show depression as anger, acting out, aggression. Those who specialize in working with men/depressed men tend to be aware of it, many therapists, doctors and other health professionals are not.
Mr J was depressed twice prior to MLC, the depression come as a consequence of burnout (the same happened to me before my MLC). His previous depressions were the normal, obvious sort. The MLC was not. He knew he was depressed in early 2006 and did not accept professional help. The rest, as they say, is history.
Silver, my wallower cousin wallowed and had obvious depression. He also had anger, some wallowers do, but when he start to hit rock bottom/when Liminal, even on his wallower self there was a difference. It was total, complete and absolute darkness. He could not move, speak, wash himself, etc. It was bad, very bad. He had to been taken to the psychiatria A&E (ER) and was under psychiatic supervision for about two years afterwards. He is now fine and no one who had not seen him at his low would believe it is the same person.
I was a short lived high energy MLCer. When the energy run out, it was a strange, static, long, depressed place. Or better it seemed static and long, but it was not that static or long. Something was shifting inside. It is not visible, no even to the person going through it when it is happening.
Replay is was most here are dealing with and during which pretty much all the crazy happens. Replay is no a stage, but a sub-stage of Separation. RCR has four stages of MLC, Separation, Liminality, Rebirth, Reintegration. Separation includes Rejection & Refusal, Resentment and Escape & Avoid. Escape & Avoid is where Replay, for high energy MLCers, or Wallowing, for wallowers/low energy MLCers, come in. Replay is, in fact, the third part of Separation. The most visible one. It is also the longest part of MLC.
The other parts of Separation as well as the other three stages of MLC Liminality, Rebirth, and Reintegration aren't talk about that much. The first parts of Separation can often only been understood by the LBS in hindsight, Rebirth and Reintegration are usually described in the threads of those reconnecting or reconciling, or by former MLCers, but without the terms being used.
Liminality is a place MLCers like to avoid. There will be no more, or not much, energy to keep running after the much needed high that fuels replay and keeps the darnkness at bay. Not that the darkness is not there during Replay, it is. But it is masked with all the highs from Replay life. However, as a general rule, at a point a MLCer as to falt into Liminality. It is the only way of progress out of MLC.
Acorn is right, what can certify Liminality is what follows, Rebirth. Consistent new actions, consistent growth over a period of time. Moving towards Reintegration.
https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_stages.html - RCR MLC Stages
-
Replay is was most here are dealing with and during which pretty much all the crazy happens. Replay is no a stage, but a sub-stage of Separation. RCR has four stages of MLC, Separation, Liminality, Rebirth, Reintegration. Separation includes Rejection & Refusal, Resentment and Escape & Avoid. Escape & Avoid is where Replay, for high energy MLCers, or Wallowing, for wallowers/low energy MLCers, come in. Replay is, in fact, the third part of Separation. The most visible one. It is also the longest part of MLC.
The other parts of Separation as well as the other three stages of MLC Liminality, Rebirth, and Reintegration aren't talk about that much. The first parts of Separation can often only been understood by the LBS in hindsight, Rebirth and Reintegration are usually described in the threads of those reconnecting or reconciling, or by former MLCers, but without the terms being used.
As I highlighted above, I wholeheartedly agree with Anjae that replay is most visible. I think the term ‘replay’ is often used interchangebly with Separation by many because it describes identifiable actions/ behaviours, rather than a state of mind which can sound too abstract. (Of course, Separation is much more than Replay.)
Also, Replay is in included as a stage by HB and Conway which makes the term more easily recognizable to many.
About Rebirth and Reintergration:
Anjae is absolutely correct about some posters not using the term. I’m one of them. I’m guessing R&R can appear airy fairy psychobabble and too abstract for some, including myself. I must say I unconsciouly avoided using them as well. I prefer using ordinary terms such as ‘healing’, ‘finding sanity’, ‘returning of common sense’, ‘settling down in peace’, etc.
-
Anjae, that was a very helpful bit of clarification, thank you.
I have wondered occasionally if RCR or the HS team would find it helpful if we shared some things we have seen from our own experience of the other stages, both Separation more widely than Replay and what post Replay looks like from the POV of those who have seen it.
Might be a helpful resource for future LBS as opposed to jewels scattered across lots of different threads.
What do you think?
-
Treasur, I am certain it is very important to share what we have seen more widely of Separation and the post Replay phases/stages. Several of us do in fact share it, like when I say in hindsight Mr J's MLC started when his paternal grandmother died, late Spring/Early Summer 2005, him saying he was depressed early 2006, etc.
Many of us talk a bit of those pre-Replay parts of Separation, but we do not name them. Same for the post Replay phases, Liminality included. The terms don'tn tend to be used, but the actions are described. The more we write/read about those, the better.
The phases of separation can, and often, overlap. A behaviour that latter will become full replay behaviour may start in Rejection & Refusal and/or Resentment. And, of course, Rejection & Refusal and Resentment are present in Replay. What is the difference? I would say the extreme behaviour in Replay. It is off the charts. The rejection and refusal of all that was, as well as the resentment are present, but in Replay it is more about the new, MLC version of the person.
There are problably some specific threads on those matters. I will have to look in the archives. However, the more we write of what we witnessed, the better, I say.
Don't see anything wrong with using healing, coming out of the fog/out of the fog, etc. It is simpler and provides a better visual image.
Replay, the term, is used a lot for the reasons Acorn pointed and because, as we all know, it is very, very visible and obvious.
P.S. Treasur, I also want to see an update on the allotment. :)
-
If you have a Vanisher, how do you know where they are in the process? And, if they do start to "heal" and don't come home, how do you know if they were afraid to come home or if they didn't want to come home? Should I reach out to him once or twice a year in a text, or just let him be. I know that he does want to have a relationship with me, but because of the OW, I have asked him not to contact me. I am his wife (I guess ex-wife now), not the 2nd tier...
-
Anjae and Treasur -
This is a great idea! With so many of you who have witnessed/ lived through the end of replay and the transition into liminality, your point of view is invaluable. This period of mlc is so confusing because I think the personality of the mlcer comes more into play.
We see the replay behaviors ending or gone with the exception of a few, we see the reconnection with family and friends, we see “normal”, softness, clarity, the awakening and we see depression. The depression being different for each some wear masks and others are almost non-functionable. Again, I think the personality will define how the transition into liminality will be.
Each point of view in one location would be very helpful. It is time consuming searching the forum for this information when it is in a lot of different places. Thank you both for all of your information and consideration of having one thread/article
Now Anjae, a question for you since you had your own MLC. Can you you describe your depression during the transition from one stage to the next? If I read information correct, one does not reach liminality until after rock bottom. So what I am looking for is when the depression set in at the end of replay till rock bottom.
Hope
-
If you have a Vanisher, how do you know where they are in the process?
You don't. Not directly, at least.
And, if they do start to "heal" and don't come home, how do you know if they were afraid to come home or if they didn't want to come home?
Again, you don't know. However, start to "heal" is just that, start to "heal". The healing may be very early on and that healing will be different from latter healing and from full healing.
Should I reach out to him once or twice a year in a text, or just let him be. I know that he does want to have a relationship with me, but because of the OW, I have asked him not to contact me. I am his wife (I guess ex-wife now), not the 2nd tier...
You asked him not to contact you because of OW, establishing a boundary for yourself that your husband had been respecting. He wants a relationship with you. What kind of relationship do you think it would be since he is with OW? Does it make sense to contact him once or twice a year, and if so, why? For fear he may remain with OW? MLCers don't leave OW/OM because of contact with the LBS. Because you miss him? You are not second tier.
If he is still with OW, it is safe to say he remains in Replay. OW can be there in Liminality and even afterwards, but the relationship will be different. Acorn will be able to explain that difference better since she saw it in her husband.
----
Hope, I wrote a little bit about it on a previous post on this thread:
I was a short lived high energy MLCer. When the energy run out, it was a strange, static, long, depressed place. Or better it seemed static and long, but it was not that static or long. Something was shifting inside. It is not visible, no even to the person going through it when it is happening.
Unlike my wallower cousin's rock bottom, a big bang crash that require talking him to the psychiatric A&E (ER) twice and nearly two months of psychiatric follow up, by rock bottom was phased and, so to speak, silent.
During Replay, I was going out and about up to seven days a week, mostly to dance and would often return after sunrise including in Winter. I would only go to places where I would know the owners or the DJs and never to big or dangerous clubs. I was fully aware as a woman on my own I needed to be safe. At a point during that phase I was writing about nightlife for a newspaper, that was another level of protection. Bouncers, bars and club owners, as well as the DJs knew who I am and what I was doing.
I never got involved with anyone in a club/bar and never got really drunk. There was a part of me very counscious of safety. I would take a taxi from and back from the venue, expensed paid by the newspaper. I never did drugs in my life and one night stands aren't for me. Those things minimized the risks.
I also didn't broke a marriage or had OM. At a point, I was in a party, in a club, with a glass in my hand and I just come to me, "what I am doing here? The music sucks and is too loud, this place is horrible and filled with smoke, the company (dancing buddied) is good, but it is all it ever will be (in terms of friendship). To everyone's surprise I said I was going and I did.
A little latter I went to a very coveted big party people killed to get invitations for. It was in an estate house, grand gardens, beautiful place. The party was in the basement. Same usual crowd. The same happened, "What am I doing here? The music sucks, the place is too hot, it is impossible to get a drink - drinks were free - and the company is same old, same, old." I come up to the gardens, where I spend some time on my own, then left. An even bigger party people kill even more for invites come. I declined the invite and since have not set foot in any of those parties. Those parties are big brands parties and big maganizes, etc. parties.
I no longer cared, been there, done that. Before my own crisis I always avoided those parties as much as possible, which was pretty much always. Same for Mr J. Since early 2008 I was saying I would be leaving that lifestyle. It wasn't right way, but by 2009 it was much reduced.
In terms of depression, I felt it more at BD. The depression, feeling of the floor opening all LBS feel and at a point after Replay activities start to be cut. At BD it was the usual mess we all know. When Replay activities start to be cut, I had physical aches, I start to feel down. The adrenaline that had sustained Replay activities was fading - adrenaline is sort of self feed, the more adrenaline inducing activities, the more it is sustained. When the activities stop there is a physical reaction, the body feels tired, aches, can barely function.
I remember getting out of bed hurt, literally, not mentally. Doing the dishes was exhausting, if I managed it. I spoke with my GP and friend who is a psychiatrist. I was checked for thyroid and other medical issues. At the time, all was normal (later I had thyroid problems, but that was/is peri-menopause related). My friend who is a psychiatrist said the aches and tiredness were from the depression.
At the time, it didn't made sense. And meds didn't help. I think I was lacking magnesium and vitamins. That was a semi rock bottom. But it was not a bang. I was already looking after my maternal grandmother and the tiredness pilled with having to look after her. August 2011 I collapse on the kitchen floor of exhaustion/burnout (I have a thing for collapsing on kitchens floors when exhausted, it has happened in the capital in 1999).
Maybe that can be considered real rock bottom. I didn't knew where I was, my mind was playing tricks with me. I thought I was in our flat in the capital and texted Mr J saying I was unwell and when was he coming to take me to hospital. I also text mum Mr J was not showing, where was he? Mum showed with one of my brother the day I collapsed and with another after the text. Either her or one of my brothers manage to took my phone (I don't remember anyone taking it) and call my friend who is a psychiatrist.
Since I had to go see him with my cousin, whose rock bottom was also Summer 2011, he told my mum he would talk to me. Mum and brother said nothing to me about had talked with him. Before cousin's appointment, that was on a Monday, one of my brother had took me to he emergency health center. The doctor there said people react to exhaustion/burnout/being overwhelmed in three ways, crying, becoming angry or shut down, like a computer who needs to reset. The later is apparently rarer, but is my way.
Summer 2011 here I was, cousin in rock bottom, grandmother already incapable of walking inside the house with the walking aid, counsin's brother about to leave to the US to be with his wife, aunt and her boyfriend away. I had to look after cousin and grandmother and still manage to get up, cook, change and clean grandmother, etc.
It was a conjugation of situations. For some months afterwards it was a mix of days with light, but, mostly, a gloomy, grey time. And yet, I was still going with cousin to all his medical appointments. I was better than him, I didn't had two psychiatric appointments a week and was not taking tons of meds. And, even if not at its best, my mind worked and I knew who I was. Cousin didn't.
From the on, it was more and more looking after grandmother until she died December 2016. December 2011 I start doing neuroscience and other courses on Coursera, some of them really difficult ones. My mind was able to do them.
Things keep moving forward, but looking after grandmother didn't allow for much more than putting all my energy in it.
I never had to deal with destroying a marriage, having OW/OM, had been nasty to people, etc. Part of the going out and about times were great fun. That, of course, made things much easier for me than for our MLCers.
-----
These are the specific threads I was able to find on non-Replay phases/stages of MLC. There are also RCR's articles and blog posts on the main site.
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10248.0 - Accommodation - HS article
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=6351.0 - MLC+accomodation=more accomodation?
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10258.0 - MLC vs. Individuation
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=342.0 - ROCK BOTTOM: What is it? When is it?
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=111.0 - Limbo & Awakening, Liminality, Withdrawal... Confusions
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2512.0 - Is their attitude any different in depression than in replay [depression refers to Liminality]
-
Thank you Anjae. I am just worried, that if he ever does want to return, he won't contact me because he will think I don't want him. That is why I thought a little contact would keep the door open. I can't emotionally handle more contact because I don't want to see him in a life with someone else. That would not be healthy for me. I know I am a bit off the topic here - thank you all for indulging me. Without contact I don't know where he is in the process.
-
Anjae-
THANK YOU for explaining what you experienced. I will read and re-read it along with the links. I am sure I will have questions after I have time to get through everything. Again, THANKS!
-
I understand, Shinning Start. He is still with OW, he is mostly likely still in Replay. For all we know, it does not make a difference if there is, or isn't contac. When a MLCer wants back they find a way.
If you think it is important for you to contact once or twice a year, it is fine. Just make sure it is for you, not to try to influence things/outcome because it does not work that way.
You're welcome, Hope.
-
Anjae, that was a very helpful bit of clarification, thank you.
I have wondered occasionally if RCR or the HS team would find it helpful if we shared some things we have seen from our own experience of the other stages, both Separation more widely than Replay and what post Replay looks like from the POV of those who have seen it.
Might be a helpful resource for future LBS as opposed to jewels scattered across lots of different threads.
What do you think?
IMO absolutely!
I find myself trying to force MLC stages in my head to those of Conway's, HB:s, Michelle W-D:s as they feel more concrete. I had hard time to reach all the meaning in RCR:s theory bc it is psychologically such deeply diving stuff, abstract too like you said Acorn. That's why I still tend to talk about denial, anger, replay rather than separation etc. Probably they are much easier to catch if you talk English as your native language too.
Anyway great, great posts Anjae and Acorn.
-
Anjae, that was a very helpful bit of clarification, thank you.
I have wondered occasionally if RCR or the HS team would find it helpful if we shared some things we have seen from our own experience of the other stages, both Separation more widely than Replay and what post Replay looks like from the POV of those who have seen it.
Might be a helpful resource for future LBS as opposed to jewels scattered across lots of different threads.
What do you think?
IMO absolutely!
I find myself trying to force MLC stages in my head to those of Conway's, HB:s, Michelle W-D:s as they feel more concrete. I had hard time to reach all the meaning in RCR:s theory bc it is psychologically such deeply diving stuff, abstract too like you said Acorn. That's why I still tend to talk about denial, anger, replay rather than separation etc. Probably they are much easier to catch if you talk English as your native language too.
Anyway great, great posts Anjae and Acorn.
I agree Silver about sharing anything that you think is helpful.
It is all welcome.
And I don't understand RCR's explanation - was brought up on Conway and DB, and I do speak English.....
-
You're welcome, Silver
I found RCR stages easy in the sense each of the words is precise, and, for me, concrete. Separation, Liminality, Rebirth, Reintegration. Those are active phases of a crisis. Conway, Michelle W-D HB's stages names describe feeelings/emotions, denial, anger, depression. Denial, anger, depression are present during several stages and sub-stages of MLC (remember MLC does not start or ends with Replay). That is why RCR does not uses them as stages.
Denial does not end and anger starts, anger does not end and depression starts. More often than not they all go together and are on a high during Replay, even if during Replay the depression is cover/hidden. In Liminality the depression is over/visible, but anger and denial may still exist. Even at the start of Rebirth there may be flashes of those things, and there is certainly a bit of depression as the person progresses in their crisis. In Reintegration denial, anger and depression are gone. The new reborn person has been fully integrated.
Reintegration does not mean the new person will be very different from the pre-MLC person. It may be very similar, with improvements, after all there was a MLC, just as was before, or quite different. Each person is different, so it will be different for each person.
-
Anjae, you make a good point about the words which are also descriptions of emotions and that those emotions run all the way through.
Liminality is a tricky kind of word, but I think RCRs stage descriptions are about the driving impulse of each stage...the direction i suppose. Liminality as I understand it is a kind of stuck despair like mud. No idea what a better word would be.
-
Liminality as I understand it is a kind of stuck despair like mud. No idea what a better word would be.
I think it depends. For me there was no despair, it just seemed statict and like time didn't went by.
-
Liminality as I understand it is a kind of stuck despair like mud. No idea what a better word would be.
I think it depends. For me there was no despair, it just seemed statict and like time didn't went by.
mmmmm.. Can LBSs also go through Liminality? I was having a conversation with a friend the other day about the fact that people keep saying to me I should date as "it's already been a year" since H and I separated.. My friend would actually have the opposite view, he said "It's only been a year".... And then he asked me what did I think, it's a year too long or too little and I actually had no answer. He then asked me "Do you feel like time is standing still?" And that's probably how I feel. I understand it has been a year (today to be exact!) but I can't "feel it" if that makes any sense!
-
LBS also have stages, that, often, replicate the MLCer ones. Ours tend to be shorter and less severe, unless we have a MLC of our own.
One year is the minimum advisable to wait before dating in a normal divorce/separation. In a MLC one, it is most likely too soon. The LBS is not ready nor healed enough.
Threads about LBS stages:
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8078.0 - LBS Stages 4
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5789.0 - LBS Stages 3
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5734.0 - LBS Stages 2
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2625.0 - LBS Stages 1
-
Thanks Anjae, I will read those links.
I have no interest in dating anyway. I just get annoyed when people question me about it but they wouldn't have a clue about MLC! I'm more worried about the fact that time is passing by and it's not registering with me. The LBS stages info might answer that for me.
-
When I think about how a MLCer in liminality would look I can picture a prostrate flattened person complete with double tyre tracks and a roadsign next to them saying “Road Kill from the Karma Bus”.
-
Before one gets to Liminality they have to go through the awakening process. Jim Conway states, "Once the "awakening" occurs they begin to suffer the next stage - Depression and it is the low point of the MLC Lifer's journey." My questions from this statement:
1. Is rock bottom a part of the awakening?
2. From your knowledge/experience about how long does this gradual awakening take?
3. During the awakening is this when they seem to be "normal"
4. Does the mlcer's depression gradually increase during an awakening or just at the end of replay?
5. Does the awakening have to be completed before they enter into liminality/depression or can they be in both the awakening at the end of replay and depression?
HS states: "Awakening is a time of realization, but an MLCer still may not know how to take action and may continue to be indecisive as well as uncertain. That makes sense. How does one go about cleaning up the mess caused by abandonment and infidelity? It’s a frightening thing to realize and even more frightening to think about in terms of corrective actions; they do not know if corrective actions are even possible or available; this may thus initiate another increase in confusion and guilt."
Has anyone experienced the above where their spouse does not know what to do and then never get the courage to turn back to their spouse/family?
-
I think this is where my h is. he hasn't said anything but he sure acts this way. he even said how he made his bed and has to sleep in it. ( moment of clarity or who knows this was a year ago. he said he hates what he did to me and the kids) he noticed surroundings, reconnecting with kids but who really knows? h still with ow. alos I quit drinking 4 years ago. he knows he would have to stop if he came back ,so maybe he jusr doesn't want to quit . or maybe really not want to come back
-
KB
Had you noticed an awakening in your spouse? If so, what did you see. Have you seen an increase in depression?
-
I too wonder about liminality.
In my case my H had 2 years of replay behaviour including anger and depression. He left home but OW stayed with her family to work things out there so I wonder if he could have had rock bottom then. As he had left it was difficult for me to see what he was like but we didn’t see much of him. Then he started being ‘decent’ for the next year or so and here we are. He seems happier but has never mentioned coming back. I would hate to think he still had liminality to go through but I suppose anything is possible.
Rose 🌹
-
I can't say. when things get real with him, he has always kept quiet. I don't see him much. i think last time i saw him was jan. When I talk to him on the phone, he is very short compared to before. and lately he has been very angry. some kind of change but I don't know what it is. he could very well have had a fight with ow. He is a realist(when normal) but very negative person , so I know in his mind a reconciliation could never work. I think about it sometimes but most times I feel the same way. It could never work.I suppose I wouldn't mind trying for the "family" we had .He also has so much debt ,I think true reality is hard for him to face. So that little bit of replay behavior is still there to try and forget.
-
After some further reading, can someone verify if I am understanding the details on the awakening. What I am gathering is that most of the time it is a gradual process and that they start to have some clarity and act "normal" over a period of many months. Then they will have the final realization of what has happened the ..Oh $h!te moment. The awakening can take 6-10 months. During this time we will see a change in the mlcer due to the clarity.
-
Well, my MLC er ex has ran the step to a tee. After 6 years to date I believe he is now in Liminality or entering it. He was more of a high replayer, and a runner. He left 6 years ago with OW who was 20 years younger and as it looks now it’s over. He is now back in the state he left me in and has been here for 4 months now. The only contact I have with him is when I text from time to time to remind him gently he needs to pay alimony which I don’t get but...that’s because he lost everything. This affair cost him his professional status, his business, he’s totally in debt and stopped paying all debtors 3 years ago and has back taxes he owes and hasn’t filed taxes since we divorced in 15. Also his health is bad as well.
I don’t know anything about who ended the affair. He is now working in the state he left me in and lives in the basement of the place he works. I don’t know how he had the money to move here. He said he doesn’t have money to get an apartment. I told him through text that I was sure he was depressed and he said yes. I asked him if he is still depressed and he vanished again and he didn’t answer that. He is in a city where he knows no one. He has no money, can’t do anything but stay in the basement room he’s living in so his mind has to be always going. But from what I can tell from a distance he’s in a dark place. He has never reached out to me throughout the whole MLC. He vanished and didn’t look back. He has stayed in touch only because of money and me reaching out but through those times I get pieces of what he wants me to know. He also wanted me to know in a round about way he was back in the state he left me.
It’s funny how his stages has ran true to form where others stages have been different. I don’t know how long this process is going to take him. It could be long because he’s such a proud person like his dad and denial runs deep. But, he is definitely in a place withdrawal. I have been trying to read as much as I can about this stage. Not finding a whole lot so it was good to see this thread.