[Enough]

Thank you so much for the thoughts and ideas. It's like watching a train wreck so far...wherever he is right now- he tried to go back to replay behaviors yesterday and today he's awful- mean and nasty. I hate him today for acting worse than my 9 year old ever has- he's a giant 6 year old that had his candy taken away. I can't stand that my son has to deal with him flipping all over the place. I just want to scream, but instead,I did all the normal after work things, got kid in bed, worked out and am about to scrap out- had ENOUGH of the insanity today!

[Silver]

Liminality is when, for High Energy MLCers, the cover depression turns into full blown over depression. It tends to come with, or right after, rock bottom. Like all MLC stages, aside from Reintegration and advanced Rebirth, it will still have signs of the previous stage, Separation where Replay is included.

Liminality will not be identical for every single MLCer.

It may take many years, over a decade even, for a MLCer to reach Liminality. Each MLCer is different.

That's exactly why it is useful to hear experiences from LBSs. It is rather comprehensible stage in theory but very much less discussed in practice.
Replay is of course the stage whilst people start to seek help and read forums etc so it's logical.

[Acorn]

Looking back, all I can say is that the only visible and unmistakable aspects of MLC were his crazy Replay interspersed with tear-filled sulking periods.

I tried to guess what stage H was in, but the only thing my diagnostic efforts taught me was that I saw what I wanted to see.  I’d thought too many times that I saw ‘liminality’ and the infamous ‘rock bottom’. 

The following is my humble view based on my very limited experience of one MLCer and one LBS.

What can certify the authenticity of liminality?   By what follows it.  Rebirth.  Not temporary fog clearing but more or less sustained improvement in clarity over a long period.  Sure, some MLCers may get stuck in liminality, though I have read that the most likely stage in which they can get stuck is Replay.

I think I can certify my H sane now but I still have no idea if and when liminality happened.  See, my hindsight is as slow in coming as MLCer’s progress through the tunnel.  Sigh...

I say leave MLCer to it, liminality or not.  Either they work through their issues or they don’t.   

[Treasur]

An interesting snippet posted some years ago by UK Stander that I tripped over...


Here's a bit of Terrence Real that I can't resist posting  - relates to addiction/self-medication. The book fell open at the page, so....

"Like most of the depressed men I have encountered, Billy had a history of sustained childhood injury. The bridge that links injury in childhood, and depression in manhood, is violence. Psychological violence lies at the core  of the traditional socialisation of boys in our cutlture... (text ommitted)......  The violence they are exposed to as children takes up residence in their minds as adults. Overtly depressed men like Billy are frozen, endlessly rehearsing repetitions of pain and despair. If overtly depressed men are paralyzed, men who are covertly depressed*, as i was, cannot stand still. They run, desperately trying to outdistance shame by medicating their pain, pumping up their tenuous self-esteem, or, if all else fails, inflicting their torture on others. Overt depression is violence endured. Covert depression is violence deflected."

[Anjae]

Leaving aside why someone may be depressed or having a MLC, men often show depression as anger, acting out, aggression. Those who specialize in working with men/depressed men tend to be aware of it, many therapists, doctors and other health professionals are not.

Mr J was depressed twice prior to MLC, the depression come as a consequence of burnout (the same happened to me before my MLC). His previous depressions were the normal, obvious sort. The MLC was not. He knew he was depressed in early 2006 and did not accept professional help. The rest, as they say, is history.


Silver, my wallower cousin wallowed and had obvious depression. He also had anger, some wallowers do, but when he start to hit rock bottom/when Liminal, even on his wallower self there was a difference. It was total, complete and absolute darkness. He could not move, speak, wash himself, etc. It was bad, very bad. He had to been taken to the psychiatria A&E (ER) and was under psychiatic supervision for about two years afterwards. He is now fine and no one who had not seen him at his low would believe it is the same person.

I was a short lived high energy MLCer. When the energy run out, it was a strange, static, long, depressed place. Or better it seemed static and long, but it was not that static or long. Something was shifting inside. It is not visible, no even to the person going through it when it is happening.

Replay is was most here are dealing with and during which pretty much all the crazy happens. Replay is no a stage, but a sub-stage of Separation. RCR has four stages of MLC, Separation, Liminality, Rebirth, Reintegration. Separation includes Rejection & Refusal, Resentment and Escape & Avoid. Escape & Avoid is where Replay, for high energy MLCers, or Wallowing, for wallowers/low energy MLCers, come in. Replay is, in fact, the third part of Separation. The most visible one. It is also the longest part of MLC.

The other parts of Separation as well as the other three stages of MLC Liminality, Rebirth, and Reintegration aren't talk about that much. The first parts of Separation can often only been understood by the LBS in hindsight, Rebirth and Reintegration are usually described in the threads of those reconnecting or reconciling, or by former MLCers, but without the terms being used.

Liminality is a place MLCers like to avoid. There will be no more, or not much, energy to keep running after the much needed high that fuels replay and keeps the darnkness at bay. Not that the darkness is not there during Replay, it is. But it is masked with all the highs from Replay life. However, as a general rule, at a point a MLCer as to falt into Liminality. It is the only way of progress out of MLC.


Acorn is right, what can certify Liminality is what follows, Rebirth. Consistent new actions, consistent growth over a period of time. Moving towards Reintegration.


https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_stages.html - RCR MLC Stages

[Acorn]

Replay is was most here are dealing with and during which pretty much all the crazy happens. Replay is no a stage, but a sub-stage of Separation. RCR has four stages of MLC, Separation, Liminality, Rebirth, Reintegration. Separation includes Rejection & Refusal, Resentment and Escape & Avoid. Escape & Avoid is where Replay, for high energy MLCers, or Wallowing, for wallowers/low energy MLCers, come in. Replay is, in fact, the third part of Separation. The most visible one. It is also the longest part of MLC.

The other parts of Separation as well as the other three stages of MLC Liminality, Rebirth, and Reintegration aren't talk about that much. The first parts of Separation can often only been understood by the LBS in hindsight, Rebirth and Reintegration are usually described in the threads of those reconnecting or reconciling, or by former MLCers, but without the terms being used.  

As I highlighted above, I wholeheartedly agree with Anjae that replay is most visible.  I think the term ‘replay’ is often used interchangebly with Separation by many because it describes identifiable actions/ behaviours, rather than a state of mind which can sound too abstract.  (Of course, Separation is much more than Replay.)

Also, Replay is in included as a stage by HB and Conway which makes the term more easily recognizable to many.

About Rebirth and Reintergration:

Anjae is absolutely correct about some posters not using the term.  I’m one of them.  I’m guessing R&R can appear airy fairy psychobabble and too abstract for some, including myself.  I must say I unconsciouly avoided using them as well.  I prefer using ordinary terms such as ‘healing’, ‘finding sanity’, ‘returning of common sense’, ‘settling down in peace’, etc. 

[Treasur]

Anjae, that was a very helpful bit of clarification, thank you.
I have wondered occasionally if RCR or the HS team would find it helpful if we shared some things we have seen from our own experience of the other stages, both Separation more widely than Replay and what post Replay looks like from the POV of those who have seen it.
Might be a helpful resource for future LBS as opposed to jewels scattered across lots of different threads.
What do you think?

[Anjae]

Treasur, I am certain it is very important to share what we have seen more widely of Separation and the post Replay phases/stages. Several of us do in fact share it, like when I say in hindsight Mr J's MLC started when his paternal grandmother died, late Spring/Early Summer 2005, him saying he was depressed early 2006, etc.

Many of us talk a bit of those pre-Replay parts of Separation, but we do not name them. Same for the post Replay phases, Liminality included. The terms don'tn tend to be used, but the actions are described. The more we write/read about those, the better.

The phases of separation can, and often, overlap. A behaviour that latter will become full replay behaviour may start in Rejection & Refusal and/or Resentment. And, of course, Rejection & Refusal and Resentment are present in Replay. What is the difference? I would say the extreme behaviour in Replay. It is off the charts. The rejection and refusal of all that was, as well as the resentment are present, but in Replay it is more about the new, MLC version of the person.


There are problably some specific threads on those matters. I will have to look in the archives. However, the more we write of what we witnessed, the better, I say.


Don't see anything wrong with using healing, coming out of the fog/out of the fog, etc. It is simpler and provides a better visual image.

Replay, the term, is used a lot for the reasons Acorn pointed and because, as we all know, it is very, very visible and obvious.


P.S. Treasur, I also want to see an update on the allotment. 

[Shining Star]

If you have a Vanisher, how do you know where they are in the process?  And, if they do start to "heal" and don't come home, how do you know if they were afraid to come home or if they didn't want to come home?  Should I reach out to him once or twice a year in a text, or just let him be.  I know that he does want to have a relationship with me, but because of the OW, I have asked him not to contact me.  I am his wife (I guess ex-wife now), not the 2nd tier...

[hope2018]

Anjae and Treasur -

This is a great idea! With so many of you who have witnessed/ lived through the end of replay and the transition into liminality, your point of view is invaluable. This period of mlc is so confusing because I think the personality of the mlcer comes more into play.

We see the replay behaviors ending or gone with the exception of a few, we see the reconnection with family and friends, we see “normal”, softness, clarity, the awakening and we see depression. The depression being different for each some wear masks and others are almost non-functionable. Again, I think the personality will define how the transition into liminality will be.

Each point of view in one location would be very helpful. It is time consuming searching the forum for this information when it is in a lot of different places.  Thank you both for all of your information and consideration of having one thread/article

Now Anjae, a question for you since you had your own MLC. Can you you describe your depression during the transition from one stage to the next?  If I read information correct, one does not reach liminality until after rock bottom. So what I am looking for is when the depression set in at the end of replay till rock bottom.

Hope