[Anjae]

If you have a Vanisher, how do you know where they are in the process? 

You don't. Not directly, at least.

And, if they do start to "heal" and don't come home, how do you know if they were afraid to come home or if they didn't want to come home? 

Again, you don't know. However, start to "heal" is just that, start to "heal". The healing may be very early on and that healing will be different from latter healing and from full healing.

Should I reach out to him once or twice a year in a text, or just let him be.  I know that he does want to have a relationship with me, but because of the OW, I have asked him not to contact me.  I am his wife (I guess ex-wife now), not the 2nd tier...

You asked him not to contact you because of OW, establishing a boundary for yourself that your husband had been respecting. He wants a relationship with you. What kind of relationship do you think it would be since he is with OW? Does it make sense to contact him once or twice a year, and if so, why? For fear he may remain with OW? MLCers don't leave OW/OM because of contact with the LBS. Because you miss him? You are not second tier.

If he is still with OW, it is safe to say he remains in Replay. OW can be there in  Liminality and even afterwards, but the relationship will be different. Acorn will be able to explain that difference better since she saw it in her husband.

----

Hope, I wrote a little bit about it on a previous post on this thread:

I was a short lived high energy MLCer. When the energy run out, it was a strange, static, long, depressed place. Or better it seemed static and long, but it was not that static or long. Something was shifting inside. It is not visible, no even to the person going through it when it is happening.

Unlike my wallower cousin's rock bottom, a big bang crash that require talking him to the psychiatric A&E (ER) twice and nearly two months of psychiatric follow up, by rock bottom was phased and, so to speak, silent.

During Replay, I was going out and about up to seven days a week, mostly to dance and would often return after sunrise including in Winter. I would only go to places where I would know the owners or the DJs and never to big or dangerous clubs. I was fully aware as a woman on my own I needed to be safe. At a point during that phase I was writing about nightlife for a newspaper, that was another level of protection. Bouncers, bars and club owners, as well as the DJs knew who I am and what I was doing.

I never got involved with anyone in a club/bar and never got really drunk. There was a part of me very counscious of safety. I would take a taxi from and back from the venue, expensed paid by the newspaper. I never did drugs in my life and one night stands aren't for me. Those things minimized the risks.

I also didn't broke a marriage or had OM. At a point, I was in a party, in a club, with a glass in my hand and I just come to me, "what I am doing here? The music sucks and is too loud, this place is horrible and filled with smoke, the company (dancing buddied) is good, but it is all it ever will be (in terms of friendship). To everyone's surprise I said I was going and I did.

A little latter I went to a very coveted big party people killed to get invitations for. It was in an estate house, grand gardens, beautiful place. The party was in the basement. Same usual crowd. The same happened, "What am I doing here? The music sucks, the place is too hot, it is impossible to get a drink - drinks were free - and the company is same old, same, old." I come up to the gardens, where I spend some time on my own, then left. An even bigger party people kill even more for invites come. I declined the invite and since have not set foot in any of those parties. Those parties are big brands parties and big maganizes, etc. parties.

I no longer cared, been there, done that. Before my own crisis I always avoided those parties as much as possible, which was pretty much always. Same for Mr J. Since early 2008 I was saying I would be leaving that lifestyle. It wasn't right way, but by 2009 it was much reduced.

In terms of depression, I felt it more at BD. The depression, feeling of the floor opening all LBS feel and at a point after Replay activities start to be cut. At BD it was the usual mess we all know. When Replay activities start to be cut, I had physical aches, I start to feel down. The adrenaline that had sustained Replay activities was fading - adrenaline is sort of self feed, the more adrenaline inducing activities, the more it is sustained. When the activities stop there is a physical reaction, the body feels tired, aches, can barely function.

I remember getting out of bed hurt, literally, not mentally. Doing the dishes was exhausting, if I managed it. I spoke with my GP and friend who is a psychiatrist. I was checked for thyroid and other medical issues. At the time, all was normal (later I had thyroid problems, but that was/is peri-menopause related). My friend who is a psychiatrist said the aches and tiredness were from the depression.

At the time, it didn't made sense. And meds didn't help. I think I was lacking magnesium and vitamins. That was a semi rock bottom. But it was not a bang. I was already looking after  my maternal grandmother and the tiredness pilled with having to look after her. August 2011 I collapse on the kitchen floor of exhaustion/burnout (I have a thing for collapsing on kitchens floors when exhausted, it has happened in the capital in 1999).

Maybe that can be considered real rock bottom. I didn't knew where I was, my mind was playing tricks with me. I thought I was in our flat in the capital and texted Mr J saying I was unwell and when was he coming to take me to hospital. I also text mum Mr J was not showing, where was he? Mum showed with one of my brother the day I collapsed and with another after the text. Either her or one of my brothers manage to took my phone (I don't remember anyone taking it) and call my friend who is a psychiatrist.

Since I had to go see him with my cousin, whose rock bottom was also Summer 2011, he told my mum he would talk to me. Mum and brother said nothing to me about had talked with him. Before cousin's appointment, that was on a Monday, one of my brother had took me to he emergency health center. The doctor there said people react to exhaustion/burnout/being overwhelmed in three ways, crying, becoming angry or shut down, like a computer who needs to reset. The later is apparently rarer, but is my way.

Summer 2011 here I was, cousin in rock bottom, grandmother already incapable of walking inside the house with the walking aid, counsin's brother about to leave to the US to be with his wife, aunt and her boyfriend away. I had to look after cousin and grandmother and still manage to get up, cook, change and clean grandmother, etc.

It was a conjugation of situations. For some months afterwards it was a mix of days with light, but, mostly, a gloomy, grey time. And yet, I was still going with cousin to all his medical appointments. I was better than him, I didn't had two psychiatric appointments a week and was not taking tons of meds. And, even if not at its best, my mind worked and I knew who I was. Cousin didn't.

From the on, it was more and more looking after grandmother until she died December 2016. December 2011 I start doing neuroscience and other courses on Coursera, some of them really difficult ones. My mind was able to do them.

Things keep moving forward, but looking after grandmother didn't allow for much more than putting all my energy in it.

I never had to deal with destroying a marriage, having OW/OM, had been nasty to people, etc. Part of the going out and about times were great fun. That, of course, made things much easier for me than for our MLCers.


-----
These are the  specific threads I was able to find on non-Replay phases/stages of MLC. There are also RCR's articles and blog posts on the main site.

https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10248.0 -  Accommodation - HS article

https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=6351.0 - MLC+accomodation=more accomodation?


https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10258.0 - MLC vs. Individuation


https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=342.0 - ROCK BOTTOM: What is it? When is it?

https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=111.0 - Limbo & Awakening, Liminality, Withdrawal... Confusions

https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2512.0 - Is their attitude any different in depression than in replay [depression refers to Liminality]

[Shining Star]

Thank you Anjae.  I am just worried, that if he ever does want to return, he won't contact me because he will think I don't want him.  That is why I thought a little contact would keep the door open.  I can't emotionally handle more contact because I don't want to see him in a life with someone else.  That would not be healthy for me.  I know I am a bit off the topic here - thank you all for indulging me.  Without contact I don't know where he is in the process.

[hope2018]

Anjae-

THANK YOU for explaining what you experienced.  I will read and re-read it along with the links.  I am sure I will have questions after I have time to get through everything.  Again, THANKS!

[Anjae]

I understand, Shinning Start. He is still with OW, he is mostly likely still in Replay. For all we know, it does not make a difference if there is, or isn't contac. When a MLCer wants back they find a way.

If you think it is important for you to contact once or twice a year, it is fine. Just make sure it is for you, not to try to influence things/outcome because it does not work that way.


You're welcome, Hope.

[Silver]

Anjae, that was a very helpful bit of clarification, thank you.
I have wondered occasionally if RCR or the HS team would find it helpful if we shared some things we have seen from our own experience of the other stages, both Separation more widely than Replay and what post Replay looks like from the POV of those who have seen it.
Might be a helpful resource for future LBS as opposed to jewels scattered across lots of different threads.
What do you think?

IMO absolutely!

I find myself trying to force MLC stages in my head to those of Conway's, HB:s, Michelle W-D:s as they feel more concrete. I had hard time  to reach all the meaning in RCR:s theory bc it is psychologically such deeply diving stuff, abstract too like you said Acorn. That's why I still tend to talk about denial, anger, replay rather than separation etc. Probably they are much easier to catch if you talk English as your native language too.

Anyway great, great posts Anjae and Acorn.



 

[OldPilot]

Anjae, that was a very helpful bit of clarification, thank you.
I have wondered occasionally if RCR or the HS team would find it helpful if we shared some things we have seen from our own experience of the other stages, both Separation more widely than Replay and what post Replay looks like from the POV of those who have seen it.
Might be a helpful resource for future LBS as opposed to jewels scattered across lots of different threads.
What do you think?

IMO absolutely!

I find myself trying to force MLC stages in my head to those of Conway's, HB:s, Michelle W-D:s as they feel more concrete. I had hard time  to reach all the meaning in RCR:s theory bc it is psychologically such deeply diving stuff, abstract too like you said Acorn. That's why I still tend to talk about denial, anger, replay rather than separation etc. Probably they are much easier to catch if you talk English as your native language too.

Anyway great, great posts Anjae and Acorn.

I agree Silver about sharing anything that you think is helpful.
It is all welcome.

And I don't understand RCR's explanation - was brought up on Conway and DB, and I do speak English.....

[Anjae]

You're welcome, Silver


I found RCR stages easy in the sense each of the words is precise, and, for me, concrete. Separation, Liminality, Rebirth, Reintegration. Those are active phases of a crisis. Conway, Michelle W-D HB's stages names describe feeelings/emotions, denial, anger, depression. Denial, anger, depression are present during several stages and sub-stages of MLC (remember MLC does not start or ends with Replay). That is why RCR does not uses them as stages.

Denial does not end and anger starts, anger does not end and depression starts. More often than not they all go together and are on a high during Replay, even if during Replay the depression is cover/hidden. In Liminality the depression is over/visible, but anger and denial may still exist. Even at the start of Rebirth there may be flashes of those things, and there is certainly a bit of depression as the person progresses in their crisis. In Reintegration denial, anger and depression are gone. The new reborn person has been fully integrated.

Reintegration does not mean the new person will be very different from the pre-MLC person. It may be very similar, with improvements, after all there was a MLC, just as was before, or quite different. Each person is different, so it will be different for each person.

[Treasur]

Anjae, you make a good point about the words which are also descriptions of emotions and that those emotions run all the way through.

Liminality is a tricky kind of word, but I think RCRs stage descriptions are about the driving impulse of each stage...the direction i suppose. Liminality as I understand it is a kind of stuck despair like mud. No idea what a better word would be.

[Anjae]

Liminality as I understand it is a kind of stuck despair like mud. No idea what a better word would be.

I think it depends. For me there was no despair, it just seemed statict and like time didn't went by.

[One day at a time]

Liminality as I understand it is a kind of stuck despair like mud. No idea what a better word would be.

I think it depends. For me there was no despair, it just seemed statict and like time didn't went by.

mmmmm.. Can LBSs also go through Liminality? I was having a conversation with a friend the other day about the fact that people keep saying to me I should date as "it's already been a year" since H and I separated.. My friend would actually have the opposite view, he said "It's only been a year".... And then he asked me what did I think, it's a year too long or too little and I actually had no answer. He then asked me "Do you feel like time is standing still?" And that's probably how I feel. I understand it has been a year (today to be exact!) but I can't "feel it" if that makes any sense!