Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: strongFaith34 on December 23, 2019, 06:47:12 AM
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I found this question and answer about BPD on another forum, I found the description almost exactly like MLC, very insightful post....
Can people with BPD (EUPD) be trusted?
Originally Answered: Can people with BPD be trusted?
Unfortunately, no. People with BPD (who are untreated) cannot be trusted. It is not because they are purposely manipulative, but because the disorder distorts their perception of reality and affects their memory.
One of the main issues with BPDs is that their memories are not based on facts, but on their present feelings (for reasons that are not quite yet understood). So their present feelings about something or someone will color their entire memory, including promises they have made in the past.
If a BPD promises to do something and then their feelings about you or that issue change, dont expect it to get done. The BPD will unconsciously reshape reality and then try to convince you that their version of reality is the correct one.
In short, because BPD causes delusions, people with BPD who are untreated cannot be trusted. It is very sad actually, but its important not to forget that BPD is a serious and dangerous mental illness.
Edit: Below I am going to add a BPD summary that I created for myself to better understand the disorder, but I think it does an ok job explaining all the basics about BPD.
Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) is a hereditary, genetic condition that significantly affects emotions, sense of self, memory and interpersonal relationships. Studies reveal extensive differences in brain structure and function. BPD is often triggered from the interplay of genetics with trauma during childhood. It is suspected that during early childhood, increased levels of cortisol caused by stress (trauma) permanently change the brain structure and function of those genetically predisposed to it (such as increased gray matter in the amygdala area, among other things), causing BPD. While there is no cure, BPD is very treatable with Dialectical Behavior Therapy that was specifically designed for people with BPD (by a person with BPD) and can give someone the tools to recognize and manage the symptoms.
BPD is a disorder of Dysregulation made up by Emotion Dysregulation (the core of BPD), as well as, Interpersonal, Identity, Behavioral, and Cognitive Dysregulation.
More specifically, BPD causes intense emotions that are difficult to control and manage (i.e. “Emotion Dysregulation”) including unreasonable Fear of Abandonment which is central to BPD. BPD is primarily noticed through interpersonal relationships (“Interpersonal Dysregulation”):
Persons with BPD (PBPD) feel all emotions intensely, therefore, when they like someone (either in friendship or romantically) PBPDs will love that person intensely. If the other person reciprocates then they will both be enmeshed in a very intense and personal relationship.
PBPDs see the world through Black and White Thinking. Themselves and others are viewed as either “good” or “bad”. There are very few gray areas, if any. For example, it is difficult for a PBPD to be angry at a loved one and recognize that - while the PBPD is angry at them - the PBPD still loves them. Conversely, if a loved one is angry at the PBPD then the PBPD will view either themselves or the loved one as “Bad”, because for them, someone who is “good” would never criticize or make them feel sad. Thinking is generally Black and White or Good vs Bad.
When a PBPD loves you, they will make you the center of their lives. This phase is called “Idealization” and the loved one is viewed as “all good”. PBPDs also feel intense fear of abandonment - and in order to avoid the possibility that a genuine loved one will abandon them - they will unconsciously suddenly start to hate (“Devalue”) their loved ones in a process called Splitting (which will also completely change their memories of such a person).
Splitting occurs primarily against those people PBPDs feel like “they cannot live without”. At the suspicion of real or imagined abandonment, suddenly (overnight), the loved one will be viewed as “all bad” and all their behaviors become suspect with malevolent ulterior motives. The entire relationship is completely forgotten and replaced with an alternate reality where the former loved one was always “all bad” and the two were never enmeshed in an intense, loving and personal relationship. This phase is called “Devaluation”. PBPDs also Devalue people they feel threatened by or who make them feel insecure.
It is important to note that BPD causes a false perception of reality including fragmentation of memory (memory based on snapshots instead of a flowing narrative), lack of object constancy (a feeling that people who are not immediately present, may disappear forever), lack of whole object relations (difficulty integrating the past with the present), “emotional amnesia” (completely forgetting what someone means to you) as well as outright False Memories (things that never quite happened, but feel as true to PBPDs as anything else). This peculiar problem with memory means that PBPDs only remember others based on their last encounter and continuously color the entire relationship based on each last encounter (i.e. they are unable to link the past with the present. Because of the lack of object constancy, they can only live in the present).
Because PBPDs memories are fragmented, it becomes exceedingly difficult to trust others. PBPDs experience difficulty intergrading what they know about someone into a cohesive image. It is not uncommon for PBPDs to believe that loved ones, will betray them at any moment. For reasons that are not yet fully understood, the PBPD’s mind cannot integrate a consistent perception of others based on past experience. The past cannot be integrated with the present. For a PBPD, given the opportunity, anyone may do anything, no matter how absurd under the circumstances or how out of character it would be. As such, PBPDs are unable to exhibit normal levels of trust.
Ultimately, PBPD memories are based on their present feelings and not the actual past (i.e. for PBPDs, their emotions and feelings dictate their reality, instead of facts.). A distorted view and understanding of reality is one of the major issues of BPD. Without treatment, PBPDs are generally unaware that their memories and perception of reality are distorted.
If a PBPD Devalues you, then you will be remembered as always having been an unworthy person who they don’t particularly like (even though up until yesterday you were the center on their lives and could do no wrong). Any attempt to remind an untreated PBPD of the past will cause them confusion and cognitive dissonance. Untreated PBPDs will ultimately rationalize their behavior even against overwhelming facts. For PBPDs, how they presently feel about something, makes it the absolute and only truth.
In short, when a PBPD loves someone intensely, the fear of abandonment will be so overwhelming and all-consuming that the mind, in order to protect itself from those overwhelming emotions, will suddenly “flip a switch” and cause to PBPD to suddenly feel nothing for loved one, hate them and lose all their memories of ever loving them. Sadly, unless treated, the effects of BPD on a PBPD can only be called tragic. There is a relevant and well-known quote by a certain Dr.
Thomas Sydenham
that accurately describes the unfortunate effects that BPD has on the sufferers: “They love without measure those they will soon hate without reason”.
Once Devalued, the loved one will notice a very drastic, sudden change in the PBPD’s behavior towards them– the person who was extremely loving yesterday and the two of you were inseparable, now treats you like a persona non grata for no apparent reason while denying anything is different. The Devaluation phase completely erases the loving and close relationship. The PBPD will be unable to remember that they once had strong feelings for you.
For those close to a PBPD (such as close friends, life partners, family members etc.) it may feel as the PBPD has two personas, a Dr. Jekyll and a Mr. Hyde, where neither the Dr. Jekyll nor the Mr. Hyde persona is aware that the other persona exists. When the Mr. Hyde persona (i.e. the persona with BPD) comes out, the PBPD loses all recollection that the loved one is actually a genuine love one. Again, the loved one is instead viewed as having always been an unworthy and manipulative person who the PBPD never really cared for.
From a loved one’s perspective, the two distinct personalities appear as two very different people (and they might as well be), each with their own separate memories and behaviors. In fact, the two personalities view reality itself very differently. It is important for loved ones to become familiar with the behaviors of each personality.
At the exact moment of Devaluation, PBPDs may start planning and implementing their exit strategy from the relationship (since they now hate/dislike the other person). The PBPD may unconsciously create a false and negative narrative regarding the former loved one, justifying any actions the PBPD takes. Typically, this involves a lot of rationalization as well as the elaborate manipulation and gaslighting of the former loved one that PBPDs are known for.
Rationalization, manipulation, distortions and gaslighting are not done consciously or with malice, but are simply the result of whatever the PBPD feels is true at the time. As mentioned previously, PBPD perception of reality is based on present feelings (and during Devaluation, they will believe, beyond any doubt, that the former loved one is a person with little to no worth).
This is as part of the famous “I hate you, don’t leave me” phase. In this phase the PBPD will be emotionally distant and very mean to the former loved one (“I hate you”), but at the same time, due to the Fear of Abandonment, they will also take steps to convince the former loved one not to disappear from their life (“don’t leave me”). Needless to say this is a very toxic phase. Alternatively, a PBPD may suddenly disappear from the former loved one’s life completely (they now want nothing to do with the devalued loved one) while the Fear of Abandonment may cause them reappear later.
It’s possible for the PBPD to slowly love the devalued person again (after all, the person they liked initially is still the same person), starting the cycle of idealization and devaluation all over again. Until the PBPD receives treatment, devaluation of loved ones is inevitable and at some point, this cycle will break into permanent devaluation.
From a loved-one’s perspective (if they are not aware of BPD), it would generally appear as if some short of “misunderstanding” has somehow happened, and they may reasonably believe that their PBPD loved-one still loves them (especially since the PBPD is taking steps to convince them to stick around), but otherwise treat them as a persona-non-grata ONLY because of that misunderstanding. The loved-ones may reasonably expect that as soon as that misunderstanding is resolved, their PBPD loved-one would return back to normal.
The loved-ones often fail to understand that they are dealing with a separate personality with its own (false) memories and that separate personality actually and genuinely dislikes them, and only encourages them to stick around because of the Fear of Abandonment. What is actually happening is typically completely incomprehensible to loved-ones who are unaware of what BPD is.
The Broccoli allegory:
A silly, but easy to explain way of how BPD works in relationships is this following allegory involving delicious broccoli. Imagine that you really like broccoli, and you want it to be a healthy part of your life: “Broccoli is awesome and delicious. I love everything about it and I will definitely keep it as a central part of my diet always”. If you have BPD, the disorder will cause you to fear that broccoli will disappear from your life forever and you will no longer be able to have it: “I am sure the broccoli market will collapse and I will not longer be able to get it from anywhere!” The fear is overwhelming and you start to hate and devalue broccoli rather than lose it: “You know what? I never really liked broccoli and I don’t care if I will not be able to have it in the future anymore. It tastes terrible and I am sure it’s bad for me. I want nothing to do with broccoli and I am cutting out of my life.”
BPD will also cause you to forget that you ever liked broccoli, and create false memories and false rationalizations of the past: “Why was I eating broccoli until now? I am sure there is a reason. Maybe I was eating broccoli because my roommate always brought some home, and I only ate broccoli because I used it with that sauce that I like. I only liked the sauce, not the broccoli! Yeah, I am sure that was the only reason. After all, broccoli sucks and I would never genuine like it. In fact, now that I think about it, I was not really eating broccoli all that often anyways, and the very few times I was, I certainly never cared for it”.
Then, you may stop eating broccoli altogether: “Good thing I no longer have to deal with that disgusting broccoli”. With that said, fear of abandonment is central to BPD and it does not go away: “Maybe I should not cut broccoli completely out of my life. I think I will keep it around a bit - even though I certainly don’t like it and will treat it with the contempt it deserves”.
Then, because you actually like broccoli, you may start warming up to it again: “Oh hey, this broccoli does not taste bad! It really should be part of my life!”
At that point, the Cycle begins all over again until the circumstances are such that you permanently devalue broccoli forever (even though, if not for BPD, there would be no reason you would not be enjoying broccoli for the rest of your life). Again, this allegory is a bit silly, but hopefully it makes a good point.
BPD may also cause “Unstable of a Sense of Self”. PBPDs find it difficult to form a coherent image of themselves and their likes/dislikes. As such, when PBPDs Idealize someone, they will often change their personality to match that person’s (as they are unsure of what their own personality is). This “chameleon effect” can occur both consciously and unconsciously. There are many stories of previously idealized persons, reconnecting with their PBPD former loved ones, and being very surprised that the PBPD now has a very different personality than the one they were familiar with.
There is also a distinction in behavior between Traditional and Quiet BPD. A person with “Traditional BPD” will express intense bouts of anger and rage towards the former loved one, while a person with “Quiet BPD” will simply become cold and distant. (Note: Quiet PBPDs experience the same intense anger as Traditional PBPDs, but instead of expressing those feelings outwards, they are internalized).
It is important to note that PBPD s Idealize and Devalue themselves as well as others. They may confident and proud in themselves one moment, but the next moment see themselves as terrible persons who do not deserve love, friendships or success in life.
In addition to Fear of Abandonment, many PBPDs experience “Fear of Engulfment”. As mentioned above, close relationships for PBPDs are very emotionally intense, and because PBPDs are afraid that their loved ones will Abandon them, they are also afraid of getting very close to such loved ones in the first place. If you are in a close relationship with someone with BPD, it may feel like they are pulling you closer with one hand, while at the same time pushing you away with their other hand. BPD relationships are often a balancing act between Fear of Abandonment and Fear of Engulfment. It is due to those fears that Splitting and Devaluation occurs.
BPD can cause a host of other symptoms, such as: Getting angry or upset very easily and finding it difficult to calm down (“Emotion Dysregulation”); unstable sense of self (due to the intense emotionality, PBPDs have a hard time knowing who they are or what they like and dislike) as well as strong feelings of emptiness ( “Identity Dysregulation”); impulsivity, drug use, promiscuity, binge-eating or shopping due to the intense emotions and feelings of emptiness; self-destructive behaviors such as sabotaging close relationships or even self-harm (the self destructive behaviors are called “Behavioral Dysregulation”); difficulty to admit fault and “projection” of fault to others; disassociation from reality under stress (and/or hallucinations) as well as incorrect perception of reality (“delusions”) (called “Cognitive Dysregulation”) ; and ultimately an extremely high rate of suicide (up to 70% of PBPDs will attempt suicide and 1 in 10 will commit suicide).
BPD can range from Mild (people with Mild BPD are considered “high-functioning”) to Severe (people with Severe BPD have trouble functioning, i.e. holding doing a job, taking care of themselves etc.).
Not all PBPDs exhibit the same symptoms and in fact, there is great variation of how BPD manifests in different people.
BPD is a serious and dangerous condition and one of the four “Cluster B” Personality Disorders (Antisocial, Narcissistic, Borderline, and Histrionic). It is imperative that PBPDs receive professional treatment.
Unfortunately, many psychologists appear to lack to skills to properly diagnose BPD and it is often misdiagnosed or even left undiagnosed. To make matters worse, because of Interpersonal Dysregulation (PBPDs will hate those they trust and depend on), PBPDs have a reputation of being notoriously difficult patients and many psychologists outright refuse to treat them, so it can be difficult to find a treating psychologist. Besides Dialectical Behavior Therapy which is absolutely necessary, it is said that yoga, meditation and breath-work can help manage the intensity of the BPD emotions.
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM–5) lists 9 easy to spot BPD behaviors. A psychologist will diagnose someone with BPD if at least 5 of those 9 behaviors are spotted. Laypersons should not use the DSM-5 in attempting to understand BPD; it is a tool for professionals used for the limited purpose of diagnosis and NOT a full description of BPD. Furthermore, there have been several recommendations in updating the DSM in regards to BPD based on our updated understanding of BPD.
It is also important for the loved ones and former loved ones of PBPDs to seek help for themselves. The trauma of suddenly being treated in a horrible way by a loved one and losing them for no apparent reason often causes PTSD and/or other mental health issues. For this reason, people who have been through a relationship with a PBPD are often called BPD survivors.
Finally, loved ones should make sure they are socially and legally protected. It is not uncommon for a Traditional PBPD to make false accusations against a devalued loved one (e.x. accusations for inappropriate behaviors, stalking, sexual harassment, theft etc.). Traditional PBPDs do not make false accusations on purpose or because they are mean. It is important to remember that reality for PBPDs is dictated by feelings and not facts. During Devaluation, a PBPD will genuinely believe that their former loved ones are evil and have behaved in an evil way. There are countless such stories from BPD survivors.
Once someone is aware of what BPD is, it is relatively easy to spot due to the intensity of the interpersonal relationships and the sudden devaluations that follow. It is through these interpersonal relationships that high functioning PBPDs often realize that a problem exists.
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Certainly are elements in MLC which mimic BPD..... absolutely.
Oh, BTW.... fantastic post.
I've seen mentions about BPD from several posters but not in this depth..... really helped me visualize what experiencing that looks like (and I've been curious).
So many similarities and yet, not quite that (in my sitch anyway).
This would be such a terrible thing to go thru with a spouse (well, with anyone close really). Just shows how damaged we can be and what fear and hurt do to a person.
-SS
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I've always heard that this is way more common in women. I've seen a lot of these personality traits in girls who've had bad relationships with their fathers and/or were sexually abused. Usually they have multiple kids by multiple men, are angry, violent, paranoid and pretty much act like unruly watchdogs. They act like they love their kids but if you look closely, they're more like objects to them. A dog with a bone. Plenty of them in my home state (Alabama). I don't think my x exhibited any of these characteristics prior to a year or so before BD. And I don't think this is something that just develops in mid-life? Of course, I'm no doctor but the people I've met who are like this were always like this. My cousin's ex-wife behaved in a similar manner. She has a new husband now. Third one at 33 and she has five kids. I see the same pattern. There's an intense "I love you" "Greatest dad in the world" "I have the best hubby" posts all his "lovey-dovey" texts, kissing photos, etc phase that slowly degrades. She posts on FB pretty much all day (wants those imaginary haters to know her hubby loves her) and I'm starting to see the angrier posts. "I don't need a man" "Fluck men" "Hurt my kid I'll hurt you" and blahblahblah. They'll be divorced next year I'm sure. I guess it's possible our mlcers went through something similar but I don't think my xh has this.
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What an interesting overview.
My opinion (sample of one lol) is that, while MLC behaviour looks a lot like some other disorders including BPD, this description shows so clearly I think that you could not live with someone for 20/30 years and not see this in their behaviour. You would not have to know what it was to see the instability and 'not quite rightness' of it.
If you were profoundly shocked post BD by this kind of behaviour, if others were profoundly shocked, trust your own judgement and avoid falling into the terrible temptation to rewrite the past to make sense of the present.
I imagine that it may be useful to understand things like BPD as part of adapting to present behaviour and indeed it seems surprisingly common in ow and maybe within FOO issues, either for an MLCer regressing to a FOO pattern (in my cases, my xh's mother is probably BPD and we all thought so before these events) or for an LBS with a creeping sense of FOO familiarity. People as objects just as Penelope says. Or children brought up as objects by a BPD parent.
But I am not a stupid or unobservant woman. Few folks here are imho.
If I had lived with a BPD spouse for twenty years, I would have noticed. :)
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for an MLCer regressing to a
If I had lived with a BPD spouse for twenty years, I would have noticed. :)
Me, too.
It’s the sudden change from a gentle, loving and giving spouse/father/son/friend to this unrecognizable, self-obsessed and raging person that marked my H’s crisis.
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I am living this. My spouse mom has a personality disorder and his maternal gf too. This is why research is critical. I think though that often latent issues with brain chemistry, hormones, childhood trauma explode at midlife in a way unseen before - so maybe they are on a spectrum during Mlc rather than a lifetime diagnosis.
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What an interesting overview.
My opinion (sample of one lol) is that, while MLC behaviour looks a lot like some other disorders including BPD, this description shows so clearly I think that you could not live with someone for 20/30 years and not see this in their behaviour. You would not have to know what it was to see the instability and 'not quite rightness' of it.
If you were profoundly shocked post BD by this kind of behaviour, if others were profoundly shocked, trust your own judgement and avoid falling into the terrible temptation to rewrite the past to make sense of the present.
I imagine that it may be useful to understand things like BPD as part of adapting to present behaviour and indeed it seems surprisingly common in ow and maybe within FOO issues, either for an MLCer regressing to a FOO pattern (in my cases, my xh's mother is probably BPD and we all thought so before these events) or for an LBS with a creeping sense of FOO familiarity. People as objects just as Penelope says. Or children brought up as objects by a BPD parent.
But I am not a stupid or unobservant woman. Few folks here are imho.
If I had lived with a BPD spouse for twenty years, I would have noticed. :)
I agree with this. MLC involves a very abrupt loss of empathy and self awareness. There are also physical symptoms many of us notice, like the black "shark" eyes, rapid aging, weight gain. The progression as described on this and other sites tends to be Jungian and metaphorical, but if you look at it in a medical light tends to be quite specific.
I would say if someone needs help from a therapist, a doctor, or a lawyer (to protect the children or assets, or to try to enlist help of family members or friends), I would shy away from mentioning personality disorders. If you look at the symptoms of schizophrenia, bipolar, and cyclothemia, you will see a lot of overlap with what we are calling MLC, too. There are also neurodegenerative illnesses like bvFTD, which, although rare, can present atypically and tend to run in families.
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The thing you have got to know about everything that is said about BPD or any personality disorder that it all boils down really to one thing:
Trauma.
If you dig around or even just scratch the surface, everyone has some form of trauma in their history or current experience.
It hijacks normal brain function, chemistry, and even structure.
It also presents in a myriad of dysregulated and misdiagnosed or stigmatized behavior.
A LOT of those behaviors are fully endorsed in common culture, everywhere.
And a LOT of the human causes of trauma are *equally endorsed*, or at least, not very penalized. Not penalized in any way that a trauma survivor can see as justice or equal to the pain or rupture that was caused.
There has got to be a road down which we find compassion for the origins of the trauma and the age at which any person was so devalued or violated or abandoned that they snapped. There has got to be a time in our lives in which trauma is the thing identified and treated and recovered from, rather than this name-calling or labeling out of a dubious reference book that is always in revision anyway.
I’m not saying you’re wrong. BPD does resemble all of this MLC antagonism. Most of the PDs do. But I hope we all find that this is a springboard to better understanding of why the human brain and soul and mind — a trinity or triune entity called “I/me” — does what it does.
More lightly put, in my experience of all this, the PD examination has been a first step in defining more clearly in words “what I don’t like about you”, and sometimes, “what I don’t like about me”.
A better work would be a new anti-DSM, a voluminous reference text that instead lays out the identification and hallmarks of what it is to be a healthy healed personality, exhibiting healthy and healing behaviors, in healthy and healing intimacy and family/interpersonal dynamics.
Until such a book is written, I think we humans are all kind of screwed.
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I agree with Terra about unacknowledged trauma and the legacy of it.
And I really like the idea of an anti-DSM that focuses on wellness rather than illness ;)
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MLC involves a very abrupt loss of empathy and self awareness. There are also physical symptoms many of us notice, like the black "shark" eyes, rapid aging, weight gain. The progression as described on this and other sites tends to be Jungian and metaphorical, but if you look at it in a medical light tends to be quite specific.
I would say if someone needs help from a therapist, a doctor, or a lawyer (to protect the children or assets, or to try to enlist help of family members or friends), I would shy away from mentioning personality disorders. If you look at the symptoms of schizophrenia, bipolar, and cyclothemia, you will see a lot of overlap with what we are calling MLC, too. There are also neurodegenerative illnesses like bvFTD, which, although rare, can present atypically and tend to run in families.
It's been YEARS since I've been here. I'm not sure what brought me back to this board today, but I saw this thread. Everything said in this thread is SO close to the mark, but I can tell you that the "abrupt" loss of empathy and self-awareness that you PERCEIVE is exactly that - a perception. The lack of these all-too-human-traits was there all along but they knew that they had to ACT to fit in. They needed you/everyone to trust them to get married, to have kids, to have a roof over their head, and to have someone care about them. I've never known an exception to this. Can you imagine what that's like? Acting every day of your life? One day they just quit acting and you get exactly what was there all along. They stuff their true feelings down until, one day, surprise! The physical changes, such as shark eyes and aging, for example, seem to be the effect - not the cause. In either event, just imagine the mental POWER needed to physically distort the body in these ways, or vice-versa. My attempts to "help her" get back to the act that she had been living is probably the greatest monument to stupidity ever built by any man. Sigh. The wisdom I gained from this experience is beyond measure. Bomb drop was roughly 10 years ago. I've loved and lived since. Good luck to all.
Doc Hudson
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I've always heard that this is way more common in women. I've seen a lot of these personality traits in girls who've had bad relationships with their fathers and/or were sexually abused. Usually they have multiple kids by multiple men, are angry, violent, paranoid and pretty much act like unruly watchdogs. They act like they love their kids but if you look closely, they're more like objects to them. A dog with a bone. Plenty of them in my home state (Alabama). I don't think my x exhibited any of these characteristics prior to a year or so before BD. And I don't think this is something that just develops in mid-life? Of course, I'm no doctor but the people I've met who are like this were always like this. My cousin's ex-wife behaved in a similar manner. She has a new husband now. Third one at 33 and she has five kids. I see the same pattern. There's an intense "I love you" "Greatest dad in the world" "I have the best hubby" posts all his "lovey-dovey" texts, kissing photos, etc phase that slowly degrades. She posts on FB pretty much all day (wants those imaginary haters to know her hubby loves her) and I'm starting to see the angrier posts. "I don't need a man" "Fluck men" "Hurt my kid I'll hurt you" and blahblahblah. They'll be divorced next year I'm sure. I guess it's possible our mlcers went through something similar but I don't think my xh has this.
This is accurate. The children are objects to them. Trotted out when convenient for their narrative. They are the real victims in all of this. I own my ignorance when making the choices I made. The kids, though, had no choice in any of this.
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I think in retrospect, people with BPD are obvious and those that seemingly underwent an overnight transformation may have a more genuine MLC. BPD doesn't explain all of the cases of MLC we see on the forum, even though it all most likely has roots in the same cause. Which is childhood issues.
My wife has BPD and she has always fluctuated between loving me and hating me. It was even black and white in her diary.. One one page, I was the first person who ever made her feel like a person and on the next page, she tore me to shreds.
Nothing I can do about it. :-\
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I've always heard that this is way more common in women. I've seen a lot of these personality traits in girls who've had bad relationships with their fathers and/or were sexually abused. Usually they have multiple kids by multiple men, are angry, violent, paranoid and pretty much act like unruly watchdogs. They act like they love their kids but if you look closely, they're more like objects to them. A dog with a bone. Plenty of them in my home state (Alabama). I don't think my x exhibited any of these characteristics prior to a year or so before BD. And I don't think this is something that just develops in mid-life? Of course, I'm no doctor but the people I've met who are like this were always like this. My cousin's ex-wife behaved in a similar manner. She has a new husband now. Third one at 33 and she has five kids. I see the same pattern. There's an intense "I love you" "Greatest dad in the world" "I have the best hubby" posts all his "lovey-dovey" texts, kissing photos, etc phase that slowly degrades. She posts on FB pretty much all day (wants those imaginary haters to know her hubby loves her) and I'm starting to see the angrier posts. "I don't need a man" "Fluck men" "Hurt my kid I'll hurt you" and blahblahblah. They'll be divorced next year I'm sure. I guess it's possible our mlcers went through something similar but I don't think my xh has this.
This is accurate. The children are objects to them. Trotted out when convenient for their narrative. They are the real victims in all of this. I own my ignorance when making the choices I made. The kids, though, had no choice in any of this.
It's because women are also more avoidant attached then men. As you were saying, this comes from emotional and physical abuse, having to be the primary care giver of siblings and even parents that have issues with alcohol and drugs.
I think that's the thing many people either don't realize or discuss, that they "did it" to the kids too. My wife comes spends time with my son every 6 weeks or so. Just enough to give him false hope and enough for her to say that's she's not a bad parent. ::)
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What an interesting overview.
My opinion (sample of one lol) is that, while MLC behaviour looks a lot like some other disorders including BPD, this description shows so clearly I think that you could not live with someone for 20/30 years and not see this in their behaviour. You would not have to know what it was to see the instability and 'not quite rightness' of it.
If you were profoundly shocked post BD by this kind of behaviour, if others were profoundly shocked, trust your own judgement and avoid falling into the terrible temptation to rewrite the past to make sense of the present.
I imagine that it may be useful to understand things like BPD as part of adapting to present behaviour and indeed it seems surprisingly common in ow and maybe within FOO issues, either for an MLCer regressing to a FOO pattern (in my cases, my xh's mother is probably BPD and we all thought so before these events) or for an LBS with a creeping sense of FOO familiarity. People as objects just as Penelope says. Or children brought up as objects by a BPD parent.
But I am not a stupid or unobservant woman. Few folks here are imho.
If I had lived with a BPD spouse for twenty years, I would have noticed. :)
Like you, I feel that I should have been able to see a mentally deranged spouse. The truth is that I did see it - or at least I saw the glimpses she accidentally allowed me to see. I just didn't see the big picture. There's no doubt in my mind that she actively hid it. Either way, it changes nothing. Whatever happened brought you here, and your presence here has helped many.
Doc Hudson
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Treasur, I think that's how we ended up being with someone with BPD for 20 years, we ignored the red flags, rationalized them away and had our own co dependency issues.
Looking back on things now, i realize there was no way things would end up any other way than how they did. It was my own denial that kept me from seeing it, but i agree, I think too many people try to retroactively diagnose their spouse with something to rationalize their pain. I think in someways too, the whole idea of standing and MLC is doing just that.
But.. Doc, I agree too. They are also masters of hiding their issues. My xw has plenty of little "slips" that could have just been something odd that had no meaning, but looking back on it, I'm sure it all meant something. My xw's main jedi mind trick was to simply not volunteer information and if I ever had a problem with anything, to simply make it my fault. I put up with the former for so long because I was used to my own mother devaluing me constantly.
I think it honestly does take two..
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I think in retrospect, people with BPD are obvious and those that seemingly underwent an overnight transformation may have a more genuine MLC. BPD doesn't explain all of the cases of MLC we see on the forum, even though it all most likely has roots in the same cause. Which is childhood issues.
My wife has BPD and she has always fluctuated between loving me and hating me. It was even black and white in her diary.. One one page, I was the first person who ever made her feel like a person and on the next page, she tore me to shreds.
Nothing I can do about it. :-\
Dude, their diary. Oh, man.
Doc Hudson
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Treasur, I think that's how we ended up being with someone with BPD for 20 years, we ignored the red flags, rationalized them away and had our own co dependency issues.
Looking back on things now, i realize there was no way things would end up any other way than how they did. It was my own denial that kept me from seeing it, but i agree, I think too many people try to retroactively diagnose their spouse with something to rationalize their pain. I think in someways too, the whole idea of standing and MLC is doing just that.
But.. Doc, I agree too. They are also masters of hiding their issues. My xw has plenty of little "slips" that could have just been something odd that had no meaning, but looking back on it, I'm sure it all meant something. My xw's main jedi mind trick was to simply not volunteer information and if I ever had a problem with anything, to simply make it my fault. I put up with the former for so long because I was used to my own mother devaluing me constantly.
I think it honestly does take two..
All true.
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Same, guys. And Doc, I think it's something those of us getting close to the decade mark with vanishers (or at least, not clingers or on-off-on types) have the opportunity to observe objectively, without so much feeling attached. When we're actively in these relationships it's impossible to not also be bringing to our judgment our emotions, our attachment, and our own baggage. For me, I came from the same kind of dysfunctional family as he did, so it was a quick and easy match. He was the best friend I ever had and that too was something I had to get honest about, once I started working through my own reasons for not aiming higher. He was the type of person who had such a soft identity that he would become like whoever he latched onto, matching their interests, style, etc. I even pointed it out to him at times. He could discard them just as quickly and be on to the next thing. Naively I thought, "At least I know the REAL him, who is just like me!" ??? As though he wasn't doing the same thing. Yes, the discard of me and the drastic things at midlife have been more extreme, but they've also come after his diagnosis and treatment of bipolar (and I do wonder if instead of chemical imbalance, it is borderline, or a combo of the two). Chicken or the egg as to what the catalyst for the bigger version is. But if we use what we learn from this we become better at relationships, more self loving, and certainly, less accommodating! Glad to hear you're doing well, Doc, and that life indeed does go on.
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My H to a T. I have had many people more familiar with BPPD tell me they believe he is BP. His mom is diagnosed BP/Narcissist. There were many many red flags along the way, but I ignored them or soothed those fragile relationships over (co-dependent?) - I understand that bi-polar is traditionally diagnosed in early 20’s, the next highest demographic? Men in late 40s early 50 - makes me sad, this doesn’t make me love my H less, just provides empathy and a desire for him to get the help he needs - I understand it is very hard to diagnose and you have to be willing to be honest in the mental health evaluations/counseling -
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Wow......I pop back in during a free hour at work and immediately land on a thread where I can actually add to the conversation.
First off, greetings Doc! Long time, no see! I too have lived and loved in the almost 9 years since BD and am currently engaged. We certainly have our ups and downs but it's nothing like it was with XW (who I still see regularly, btw). I honestly have to say XW seems much more like her pre-BD than post-BD self lately and has even been messaging me to check on my health while I've been ill these past couple weeks. Not sure if it's genuine caring or not but no one but us knows of our interactions.
Now, let me weigh in on the topic of this thread. As many of the old-timers here know I work in the mental health field (20 years now) and have extensive experience in the treatment of BPD and other personality disorders. Ironically, BPD is the most treatable of the Cluster B PD's (Narcissistic, Histrionic and Anti-social being the other three) and Dialectical Behavioral Therapy has done wonders for helping people with BPD address their emotional tendencies and unhealthy thought and relational patterns. I do two groups a week and one of the members has been through several cycles of DBT and states that she learns something new every time. She has been able to build both friend and acquaintance relationships and is interested in a healthy romantic one but hasn't found the right person yet. Bottom line is that BPD really IS treatable with the right techniques and training and the potential to lead a healthy life is very high. Many therapists even go so far as to declare someone with BPD "recovered" and no longer qualifying for the diagnosis once symptoms have been in remission for over a certain period of time (usually two years).
Now to muddy the waters a bit. BPD is very often MISdiagnosed in clients who actually have what is known as Complex PTSD, or C-PTSD for short. Clients with C-PTSD will have the same emotional wounding as those with BPD but without the patterns of idealizing - devaluing - discarding. Many people with C-PTSD who have been misdiagnosed carry the stigma of BPD and often believe they are unable to build healthy relationships and often keep others at arms length to protect them or themselves. It takes a skilled therapist and multiple interactions to properly diagnose someone with C-PTSD as opposed to BPD and it is for this reason that I am very slow to diagnose a PD at all. Quite often people will live down to whatever their diagnosis is and once they find out that the diagnosis was inaccurate I've seen drastic behavioral and attitude changes.
All that said, I don't believe BPD and MLC are one and the same although they do have similar traits and could likely be treated with the same techniques. I have had a few MLCers on my caseload and the underlying depression that is likely linked to hormonal changes in the body is a bigger factor than the pre-existing mental health condition IMO. Just my .02.
Peace to you all.
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Same, guys. And Doc, I think it's something those of us getting close to the decade mark with vanishers (or at least, not clingers or on-off-on types) have the opportunity to observe objectively, without so much feeling attached. When we're actively in these relationships it's impossible to not also be bringing to our judgment our emotions, our attachment, and our own baggage. For me, I came from the same kind of dysfunctional family as he did, so it was a quick and easy match. He was the best friend I ever had and that too was something I had to get honest about, once I started working through my own reasons for not aiming higher. He was the type of person who had such a soft identity that he would become like whoever he latched onto, matching their interests, style, etc. I even pointed it out to him at times. He could discard them just as quickly and be on to the next thing. Naively I thought, "At least I know the REAL him, who is just like me!" ??? As though he wasn't doing the same thing. Yes, the discard of me and the drastic things at midlife have been more extreme, but they've also come after his diagnosis and treatment of bipolar (and I do wonder if instead of chemical imbalance, it is borderline, or a combo of the two). Chicken or the egg as to what the catalyst for the bigger version is. But if we use what we learn from this we become better at relationships, more self loving, and certainly, less accommodating! Glad to hear you're doing well, Doc, and that life indeed does go on.
Hi R2T! Yep. This all sounds so familiar.
You sound well. What I went through refined me. I cut all the bullsh*t and moved forward. For this boon I am thankful. Now, though, I see so many in the fog of life. Not just the MLC fog, but the many people just mailing it in every day just to get to the next. I wish more for them, but it is what it is. I help who I can when I can. The people who find their way here are lucky to have you around. Take care.
Doc Hudson
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Wow......I pop back in during a free hour at work and immediately land on a thread where I can actually add to the conversation.
First off, greetings Doc! Long time, no see! I too have lived and loved in the almost 9 years since BD and am currently engaged. We certainly have our ups and downs but it's nothing like it was with XW (who I still see regularly, btw). I honestly have to say XW seems much more like her pre-BD than post-BD self lately and has even been messaging me to check on my health while I've been ill these past couple weeks. Not sure if it's genuine caring or not but no one but us knows of our interactions.
Now, let me weigh in on the topic of this thread. As many of the old-timers here know I work in the mental health field (20 years now) and have extensive experience in the treatment of BPD and other personality disorders. Ironically, BPD is the most treatable of the Cluster B PD's (Narcissistic, Histrionic and Anti-social being the other three) and Dialectical Behavioral Therapy has done wonders for helping people with BPD address their emotional tendencies and unhealthy thought and relational patterns. I do two groups a week and one of the members has been through several cycles of DBT and states that she learns something new every time. She has been able to build both friend and acquaintance relationships and is interested in a healthy romantic one but hasn't found the right person yet. Bottom line is that BPD really IS treatable with the right techniques and training and the potential to lead a healthy life is very high. Many therapists even go so far as to declare someone with BPD "recovered" and no longer qualifying for the diagnosis once symptoms have been in remission for over a certain period of time (usually two years).
Now to muddy the waters a bit. BPD is very often MISdiagnosed in clients who actually have what is known as Complex PTSD, or C-PTSD for short. Clients with C-PTSD will have the same emotional wounding as those with BPD but without the patterns of idealizing - devaluing - discarding. Many people with C-PTSD who have been misdiagnosed carry the stigma of BPD and often believe they are unable to build healthy relationships and often keep others at arms length to protect them or themselves. It takes a skilled therapist and multiple interactions to properly diagnose someone with C-PTSD as opposed to BPD and it is for this reason that I am very slow to diagnose a PD at all. Quite often people will live down to whatever their diagnosis is and once they find out that the diagnosis was inaccurate I've seen drastic behavioral and attitude changes.
All that said, I don't believe BPD and MLC are one and the same although they do have similar traits and could likely be treated with the same techniques. I have had a few MLCers on my caseload and the underlying depression that is likely linked to hormonal changes in the body is a bigger factor than the pre-existing mental health condition IMO. Just my .02.
Peace to you all.
Thundarr! Yeah, I can see how it would be difficult to tell the difference. Perhaps it matters to a professional, but not to the family I think. I just turned 44 and my hormones are still pretty much dialed in. I get them checked for my powerlifting tournaments. My DHT is through the roof though. Hasn't really dropped in 25 years, but it should have. DHT is great for strength, but it's too anabolic. It affects everything. I go up a 1/2 shoe size every four years or so and I've actually grown about an inch taller since I was 30. I'm trying to dial it back naturally. Supplements, etc. I feel better. My hair also got thicker. I'll take it! Take care. And for old time's sake.... DETACH!!!!!!!!
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Thundarr, one quick question, I have heard that said about C-PTSD mimicking bipolar as well - when you refer to the idealize, devalue, discard cycle. Can there be 18 years between cycles - my H has ended all his prior relationships in similar ways - not that there is a long list, a college girlfriend - he moved out in the middle of the night, and a first wife who he married within a year of dating and they were separated when I met him about four years later, he told me there marriage was over from the start and they were in counseling the first year, however after he left, I found a folder of emails from his first divorce and she seemed blindsided by his leaving. We were together for 18 years, I never experienced a devaluing or discard phase during the marriage until bomb drop. He has had many episodes of rage, anxiety and depression - but I was very much loved and cherished until the last six months or so before BD.
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Great post Thundarr! In addition to C-PTSD I would include other, similar but more severe early childhood trauma related disorders like DID and OSDD.