[Doc Hudson]

I've always heard that this is way more common in women. I've seen a lot of these personality traits in girls who've had bad relationships with their fathers and/or were sexually abused. Usually they have multiple kids by multiple men, are angry, violent, paranoid and pretty much act like unruly watchdogs. They act like they love their kids but if you look closely, they're more like objects to them. A dog with a bone. Plenty of them in my home state (Alabama). I don't think my x exhibited any of these characteristics prior to a year or so before BD. And I don't think this is something that just develops in mid-life? Of course, I'm no doctor but the people I've met who are like this were always like this. My cousin's ex-wife behaved in a similar manner. She has a new husband now. Third one at 33 and she has five kids. I see the same pattern. There's an intense "I love you" "Greatest dad in the world" "I have the best hubby" posts all his "lovey-dovey" texts, kissing photos, etc phase that slowly degrades. She posts on FB pretty much all day (wants those imaginary haters to know her hubby loves her) and I'm starting to see the angrier posts. "I don't need a man" "Fluck men" "Hurt my kid I'll hurt you" and blahblahblah. They'll be divorced next year I'm sure. I guess it's possible our mlcers went through something similar but I don't think my xh has this.

This is accurate.  The children are objects to them.  Trotted out when convenient for their narrative.  They are the real victims in all of this.  I own my ignorance when making the choices I made.  The kids, though, had no choice in any of this.

[gman242]

I think in retrospect, people with BPD are obvious and those that seemingly underwent an overnight transformation may have a more genuine MLC. BPD doesn't explain all of the cases of MLC we see on the forum, even though it all most likely has roots in the same cause. Which is childhood issues.

My wife has BPD and she has always fluctuated between loving me and hating me. It was even black and white in her diary.. One one page, I was the first person who ever made her feel like a person and on the next page, she tore me to shreds.

Nothing I can do about it. 

[gman242]

I've always heard that this is way more common in women. I've seen a lot of these personality traits in girls who've had bad relationships with their fathers and/or were sexually abused. Usually they have multiple kids by multiple men, are angry, violent, paranoid and pretty much act like unruly watchdogs. They act like they love their kids but if you look closely, they're more like objects to them. A dog with a bone. Plenty of them in my home state (Alabama). I don't think my x exhibited any of these characteristics prior to a year or so before BD. And I don't think this is something that just develops in mid-life? Of course, I'm no doctor but the people I've met who are like this were always like this. My cousin's ex-wife behaved in a similar manner. She has a new husband now. Third one at 33 and she has five kids. I see the same pattern. There's an intense "I love you" "Greatest dad in the world" "I have the best hubby" posts all his "lovey-dovey" texts, kissing photos, etc phase that slowly degrades. She posts on FB pretty much all day (wants those imaginary haters to know her hubby loves her) and I'm starting to see the angrier posts. "I don't need a man" "Fluck men" "Hurt my kid I'll hurt you" and blahblahblah. They'll be divorced next year I'm sure. I guess it's possible our mlcers went through something similar but I don't think my xh has this.

This is accurate.  The children are objects to them.  Trotted out when convenient for their narrative.  They are the real victims in all of this.  I own my ignorance when making the choices I made.  The kids, though, had no choice in any of this.

It's because women are also more avoidant attached then men. As you were saying, this comes from emotional and physical abuse, having to be the primary care giver of siblings and even parents that have issues with alcohol and drugs.

I think that's the thing many people either don't realize or discuss, that they "did it" to the kids too. My wife comes spends time with my son every 6 weeks or so. Just enough to give him false hope and enough for her to say that's she's not a bad parent. 

[Doc Hudson]

What an interesting overview.
My opinion (sample of one lol) is that, while MLC behaviour looks a lot like some other disorders including BPD, this description shows so clearly I think that you could not live with someone for 20/30 years and not see this in their behaviour. You would not have to know what it was to see the instability and 'not quite rightness' of it.

If you were profoundly shocked post BD by this kind of behaviour, if others were profoundly shocked, trust your own judgement and avoid falling into the terrible temptation to rewrite the past to make sense of the present.

I imagine that it may be useful to understand things like BPD as part of adapting to present behaviour and indeed it seems surprisingly common in ow and maybe within FOO issues, either for an MLCer regressing to a FOO pattern (in my cases, my xh's mother is probably BPD and we all thought so before these events) or for an LBS with a creeping sense of FOO familiarity. People as objects just as Penelope says. Or children brought up as objects by a BPD parent.

But I am not a stupid or unobservant woman. Few folks here are imho.
If I had lived with a BPD spouse for twenty years, I would have noticed. 

Like you, I feel that I should have been able to see a mentally deranged spouse.  The truth is that I did see it - or at least I saw the glimpses she accidentally allowed me to see.  I just didn't see the big picture. There's no doubt in my mind that she actively hid it.  Either way, it changes nothing. Whatever happened brought you here, and your presence here has helped many.

Doc Hudson

[gman242]

Treasur, I think that's how we ended up being with someone with BPD for 20 years, we ignored the red flags, rationalized them away and had our own co dependency issues.

Looking back on things now, i realize there was no way things would end up any other way than how they did. It was my own denial that kept me from seeing it, but i agree, I think too many people try to retroactively diagnose their spouse with something to rationalize their pain. I think in someways too, the whole idea of standing and MLC is doing just that.

But.. Doc, I agree too. They are also masters of hiding their issues. My xw has plenty of little "slips" that could have just been something odd that had no meaning, but looking back on it, I'm sure it all meant something. My xw's main jedi mind trick was to simply not volunteer information and if I ever had a problem with anything, to simply make it my fault. I put up with the former for so long because I was used to my own mother devaluing me constantly.

I think it honestly does take two..

[Doc Hudson]

I think in retrospect, people with BPD are obvious and those that seemingly underwent an overnight transformation may have a more genuine MLC. BPD doesn't explain all of the cases of MLC we see on the forum, even though it all most likely has roots in the same cause. Which is childhood issues.

My wife has BPD and she has always fluctuated between loving me and hating me. It was even black and white in her diary.. One one page, I was the first person who ever made her feel like a person and on the next page, she tore me to shreds.

Nothing I can do about it. 

Dude, their diary.  Oh, man.

Doc Hudson

[Doc Hudson]

Treasur, I think that's how we ended up being with someone with BPD for 20 years, we ignored the red flags, rationalized them away and had our own co dependency issues.

Looking back on things now, i realize there was no way things would end up any other way than how they did. It was my own denial that kept me from seeing it, but i agree, I think too many people try to retroactively diagnose their spouse with something to rationalize their pain. I think in someways too, the whole idea of standing and MLC is doing just that.

But.. Doc, I agree too. They are also masters of hiding their issues. My xw has plenty of little "slips" that could have just been something odd that had no meaning, but looking back on it, I'm sure it all meant something. My xw's main jedi mind trick was to simply not volunteer information and if I ever had a problem with anything, to simply make it my fault. I put up with the former for so long because I was used to my own mother devaluing me constantly.

I think it honestly does take two..

All true.

[Ready2Transform]

Same, guys. And Doc, I think it's something those of us getting close to the decade mark with vanishers (or at least, not clingers or on-off-on types) have the opportunity to observe objectively, without so much feeling attached. When we're actively in these relationships it's impossible to not also be bringing to our judgment our emotions, our attachment, and our own baggage. For me, I came from the same kind of dysfunctional family as he did, so it was a quick and easy match. He was the best friend I ever had and that too was something I had to get honest about, once I started working through my own reasons for not aiming higher. He was the type of person who had such a soft identity that he would become like whoever he latched onto, matching their interests, style, etc. I even pointed it out to him at times. He could discard them just as quickly and be on to the next thing. Naively I thought, "At least I know the REAL him, who is just like me!"  As though he wasn't doing the same thing. Yes, the discard of me and the drastic things at midlife have been more extreme, but they've also come after his diagnosis and treatment of bipolar (and I do wonder if instead of chemical imbalance, it is borderline, or a combo of the two). Chicken or the egg as to what the catalyst for the bigger version is. But if we use what we learn from this we become better at relationships, more self loving, and certainly, less accommodating! Glad to hear you're doing well, Doc, and that life indeed does go on.

[3Boys4Me]

My H to a T. I have had many people more familiar with BPPD tell me they believe he is BP. His mom is diagnosed BP/Narcissist. There were many many red flags along the way, but I ignored them or soothed those fragile relationships over (co-dependent?) - I understand that bi-polar is traditionally diagnosed in early 20’s, the next highest demographic? Men in late 40s early 50 - makes me sad, this doesn’t make me love my H less, just provides empathy and a desire for him to get the help he needs - I understand it is very hard to diagnose and you have to be willing to be honest in the mental health evaluations/counseling -

[Thundarr]

Wow......I pop back in during a free hour at work and immediately land on a thread where I can actually add to the conversation.

First off, greetings Doc!  Long time, no see!  I too have lived and loved in the almost 9 years since BD and am currently engaged.  We certainly have our ups and downs but it's nothing like it was with XW (who I still see regularly, btw).  I honestly have to say XW seems much more like her pre-BD than post-BD self lately and has even been messaging me to check on my health while I've been ill these past couple weeks.  Not sure if it's genuine caring or not but no one but us knows of our interactions. 

Now, let me weigh in on the topic of this thread.  As many of the old-timers here know I work in the mental health field (20 years now) and have extensive experience in the treatment of BPD and other personality disorders.  Ironically, BPD is the most treatable of the Cluster B PD's (Narcissistic, Histrionic and Anti-social being the other three) and Dialectical Behavioral Therapy has done wonders for helping people with BPD address their emotional tendencies and unhealthy thought and relational patterns.  I do two groups a week and one of the members has been through several cycles of DBT and states that she learns something new every time.  She has been able to build both friend and acquaintance relationships and is interested in a healthy romantic one but hasn't found the right person yet.  Bottom line is that BPD really IS treatable with the right techniques and training and the potential to lead a healthy life is very high.  Many therapists even go so far as to declare someone with BPD "recovered" and no longer qualifying for the diagnosis once symptoms have been in remission for over a certain period of time (usually two years).

Now to muddy the waters a bit.  BPD is very often MISdiagnosed in clients who actually have what is known as Complex PTSD, or C-PTSD for short.  Clients with C-PTSD will have the same emotional wounding as those with BPD but without the patterns of idealizing - devaluing - discarding.  Many people with C-PTSD who have been misdiagnosed carry the stigma of BPD and often believe they are unable to build healthy relationships and often keep others at arms length to protect them or themselves.  It takes a skilled therapist and multiple interactions to properly diagnose someone with C-PTSD as opposed to BPD and it is for this reason that I am very slow to diagnose a PD at all.  Quite often people will live down to whatever their diagnosis is and once they find out that the diagnosis was inaccurate I've seen drastic behavioral and attitude changes. 

All that said, I don't believe BPD and MLC are one and the same although they do have similar traits and could likely be treated with the same techniques.  I have had a few MLCers on my caseload and the underlying depression that is likely linked to hormonal changes in the body is a bigger factor than the pre-existing mental health condition IMO.  Just my .02.

Peace to you all.