Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Writingmom on June 11, 2010, 09:44:55 AM
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I have been reading the coaching archive between RCR and Trust and Love. At one point, (and I wish I knew how to add quotes like the rest of you) RCR said that she was concerned that TL's H no longer viewed them as a couple; that maybe in the beginning she voiced disapproval of the affair, but it wasn't resonating with him now.
Panic again! I wonder now what I have done wrong. I have not contested the divorce because I feel strongly that he will stop at nothing to get it done. OW is pressuring him and I see my compliance not as approval, but maybe resignation? Necessary for my own sanity? I don't know. Maybe I'm just a failed Stander, but I have always felt in my heart that reconciliation would be more likely after he took it as far as he possibly could; failed in every area possible. He is an extreme personality anyway. He is all or nothing. He knows that I disapprove of the OW and baby. But when I am dark or dim, how am I supposed to keep acting like his wife and expressing displeasure?
It hasn't surprised me to think that he doesn't view us as a couple, but in reading the coaching archive I feel bummed for some reason. Do most MLCers still think of themselves as married? My H likes to be friendly and has recently been very calm and compliant, courteous, you name it. OW had baby 10 days ago and it seems as though he is in a good place. He is still very much ready to get the divorce over with. I don't think that he has stalled at all--ever. Again, I guess I have bought in to the I'm-leaving-and-never-looking-back speech as though it is gospel, although I have secretly hoped I was wrong.
I don't even know if what I'm saying makes sense. I think I just felt shaken out of my reverie when I read that quote. This is so difficult. I go crazy trying to find balance between leaving him alone and letting him know I'm here and it makes the insanity even worse to feel like I'm doing something wrong!
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Writingmom,
I don't have a lot of time right now; just wanted to let you know that I've read this and will write more later.
When RCR wrote that to me I felt a bit rattled as well; I've sometimes gone over everything I've done and thought where I could have done much better. But the bottom line is that I don't think it has made particularly much difference. Regarding voicing disapproval of the affair, as he denied there ever being one until relatively recently that made it interesting. There wasn't officially anything to 'disapprove' of.
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(and I wish I knew how to add quotes like the rest of you)
I will give you three different ways to make a quote
1- Hit quote button in upper right. Delete text you do not want.
2 - When replying to message there is a button 6 in from the right side. Hit it and insert text between quote brackets.
3 - Note what quote brackets look like in preceeding two methods [Quote , /Quote. There are brackets around these that I
cant type here or this will be quoted. Add text between brackets.
Hope that helps.
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Oh, no -- I'd written a whole, long reply, and it just disappeared.
What you write resonates, Writingmom.
I guess what I was trying to say, with a very long-winded explanation, was that in my case my H didn't see us as a couple from the day he dropped the bomb and left. He took off his ring and even said the next day "it's good that I'm single, as work is so hectic". My words when he left were "I love you very much, so go if you have to, but I'm not giving up".
Despsite my many wobbles and wrong turns I think I have remained consistent to that view.
All along I, too, have wondered if, had I handled things differently, this might look different now. One thing wrong with that thinking is that it is thinking that I could have 'fixed' this in some way. I can't.
I know there have been plenty of times, particularly the first year, when I could have done much, much better, particularly on the 'being his friend' front. And there were times that year when even he thought there might be a chance. I do wonder if that might have made a difference, but there is little point in kicking myself, because I can't change the past. In the end it was still down to him saying that he couldn't get 'those feelings' for me back, and to him being a couple was/is all about having those feelings.
We've had a couple of cycles of trying to re-build a friendship, and then him running off to another relationship, or attempted relationship. A year and a bit ago he again said that while we got on well and shared core values he wasn't attracted to me and therefore in no way saw any chance of us getting together.
More recently he has admitted that he is still attracted to me.
We'd been at another re-connecting point recently; maybe, as I'm more detached, this time will be different. I just don't know, and boy, do I wish I did. He had said that he liked being with us, and, for a while at least, was opening up to me more. I'd love to see that as positive, but who knows.
I have no idea if this means that there is less chance of him coming back or not. Of course on the surface it seems like those who still see themselves as part of a couple are more likely to return.
I know that the correct answer is that the only thing we can do is keep going for ourselves....
RCR, HB, others -- any other perspectives?
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TL,
Thank you for the reply. Your insight is very helpful and calming! And you are absolutely right, we could kick ourselves forever for things not handled the "right" way and yet in the end, we cannot fix this by anything that we say or do. Why do I keep forgetting the basics?
Your H sounds very typical from what I have read, that he is coming around again (albeit brief at times) to see if you can be trusted. He probably wonders if you will throw it all in his face, if you still remain committed, etc... He sounds textbook in that area! It sounds as though you are doing everything that you should; validating when possible, remaining calm and not clinging. I will be interested to hear how this progresses.
I can't fathom my H ever coming around again EVER for any reason. He likes to be cordial and loves it when we joke around (even in texting), but I question if that is his trying to manipulate the outcome of the divorce settlement some how. I don't think so. I truly believe that he wants me to be his friend and be ok with what he is doing! That is the part that is difficult; knowing how to validate THEM but not their CHOICES. We have such little communication that it's virtually impossible and sometimes it makes me panic to think that the opportunities are not there as they seem to be for others of you.
Thank you again for the reply. It helps to be brought back to the truth when my own inner chaos begins to take over! I appreciate your perspective and look forward to hearing more about your situation.
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Thank you for your kind words, WM,
I also know what you mean about opportunities for communication not being available.... I often feel like I have so much less than others, that is what makes it so hard to resist trying to 'do' something whenever I do see him.
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From the time the MLC'er enters the tunnel, and it is LONG before the bomb is dropped upon the unsuspecting spouse, the marriage has "ended" in the mind of the MLC'er, although, until the "bomb" is dropped, they try and carry like nothing is happening....and that is the biggest reason why the LBS is torn all to pieces...they NEVER knew anything was happening, and COULDN'T have fixed IF they'd known about it.
As the tunnel is entered, and the unrest begins...things unravel within the MLC'er; it's much like a "starting over" of some sort where everything that ever meant anything to them is lost within the fog that covers their minds. They lose it ALL...and I remember those feelings of having lost everything, myself. They fight these feelings at first (denial), then become angry(anger)....and something has to give...and that drives them over into Replay, where they are mired deeply BEFORE the bomb is dropped....by that time they are becoming MORE open about their dissatisfaction...and to try and make themselves feel better by looking at outside sources, they blame the spouse with everything.
They ALL go through this unraveling period where things are lost, not always for good, but quite a few things are buried deep within for a time...in their confusion, they scramble around desperately, wanting something to stop the pain, and then, enter the Replay stage where all the running behaviors are engaged to try and stop it, and in turn, it causes MORE confusion as the bomb is dropped and the LBS spouse tries to speak with the voice of reason; dealing with the MLC'er as if they are the same person the LBS has known all along...and the break is complete within the MLC'er's mind.
No one person has EVER done everything totally correct in their lives, but it is when the LBS stands against what they know is clearly wrong, the MLC'er breaks the marital bond, and steps out of the marriage emotionally...writing the LBS off as much as possible until the breaking of Withdrawal.
Their bodies are here, but their minds are elsewhere, and the jusitifications start up, as well as the spewing that ensues...and the LBS, in the MLC'er's minds, aren't doing anything except holding them back from what they were supposed to have to begin with....the sense of entitlement is a strong one.
You know, I remember my mother telling my dad one time..and she was going through the change; I can see it now, but couldn't see it then...that she wasn't married to him anymore, and took their marriage license out into the yard, set fire to it, and BURNED it.....smart move, my dad said, now you can't prove you were ever married. She told him she was never married to him, anyway, and never would be again.
They were still married when my dad passed away...my mother died 5 years later.
But it is like that...they END the marriage in their minds to justify their stupidity, and try and shut their conscience up.
They KNOW they are wrong, and they are AWARE they are wrong, although they DO suffer memory loss during the crisis...they are suffering greatly, and suffer to the point of some wanting a divorce in the hopes the pain will end...they still remember enough to KNOW divorce is a legal thing they would have to do/get to, in some minds, bring a TOTAL end to all the legalities/ties to the LBS.
But their MINDS and EMOTIONS have ALREADY severed the cord.
I thought you ladies knew this happens...it happened with me, too....my husband reached a time when he no longer saw us as a couple, just saw me as someone that was there to more or less look after him...it was MUCH later that he recommitted to the marriage; when he broke Withdrawal. A short time afterward, our marital bond reattached itself, and I knew when that happened.
I figured all the talk about recommitting to the marriage said it all..and I guess I was wrong...I'm sorry; the question had never come up before now.
After he broke and recommitted, it was a new beginning for us, a new foundation was starting to rebuild for our marriage....before, we'd been dating each other, his initiation toward me, and we were going through the process of falling in love once again as he was navigating Withdrawal....his reconnection with his family was happening during then, and he'd already been "courting" son long before....
Yet, I had remembered when the marital bond broke, it was LONG before the bomb got dropped on me, but being where I was at that time in my walk with the Lord, (I was not as developed as I am now)I did NOT recognize it....I felt a 'tearing' within, not long after a major fight we had almost a year BEFORE the bomb dropped...and I ran a fever...kind of passed it off, but that was the time my husband "broke free" of me and our marriage....and I did NOT know it.
It is a part of this crisis, and I do NOT know exactly WHY it happens, but it does...and it is part of the emotional battle experienced within the MLC'er as they, hopefully, come through the tunnel.
I don't know if this will help you understand things better...ask questions if you have them....I'm about ready to kill my computer..it's being slow today...anybody got a gun? LOL!!
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I remember when I said to him in the context of a talk we were having about me not supporting him financially (ie giving him my paycheck into a joint account) while he was "committing infidelity" and he let out a brief breathy laugh at that. My H doesn't say things out loud, but I know him so well that I know what he is thinking. He was definitely thinking right then "infidelity, we're not even married."
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That makes total sense to me. Hindsight is 20/20 and looking back, I was sensing that detachment from my H up to a year pre my first bomb (the one that didn't involve me, or at least he didn't say, just that he was really messed up). It was nothing I could quite put my finger on, but I could tell that something was most definitely missing. This man who had treated me so well for so many years was just different . . . didn't seem to care as much about me, my reactions, the kids, etc. He was withdrawn. Then he "lost" his ring after he took it off. After his first lame excuse, the reason he gave was because he wanted to "be more independent" - huge red flag! He was pretty much totally emotionally gone after the first bomb, though still going through motions until the second bomb where I learned I was the cause of his misery. It is between those two that I think the suspected OW entered the picture.
I am sure he didn't think then and still doesn't think of himself as married, which is why he still acts like he is on his own, doing his own thing, accountable to no one.
I do hope and pray for that recommittment from him someday.
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This discussion has been in my mind... I'm writing to try to gain more clarity again. Thanks for your post, HB.
I know that my H really severed the bond nearly a year before bomb drop; he even mentioned a specific event where he said that he 'for the first time really thought about leaving the marriage' -- i.e. consciously. It was a family party, and he spent much of the time in tears, outside -- blaming it on his cat allergy. Obviously I knew something was wrong and did everything I could to try to help, but even I remember feeling like he was on another planet. I do wish I had known about mlc then. Turns out that the next day he went to see the tenant of the apartment that we owned to ask if he could move in if he needed to. When he did leave, that's where he went, giving the tenant notice in the process.
He told me all that at bomb drop, and several times afterwards, to reinforce the idea that he was 'done' long before he actually left.
What is so hard for me now, and I know that my H hasn't recently been as horrible to me as many other mlc-ers have been to their spouses, is that in his mind nothing has changed. He also feels that because so much time has passed, that almost by definition reconciliation isn't an option. At the end of March he said so -- saying 'what, after all this time?', when the subject of love being a choice came up.
What WM writes about his truly wanting me to be his friend and be OK with what he is doing resonates. It's the 'being OK with what he is doing' that I have so much trouble with.
Right now he is still as far gone as ever, actually, it feels like more so, because I just don't see anything. When I saw some depression recently at least it seemed like he was feeling or processing something. It's a long time after bomb drop; a short while ago it seemed that he wanted to spend time with us, now even that isn't showing at all any more. He's not even looking smug, or hollow-eyed, or anything -- nothing to give me any indication that there is any progress within him at all.
For him I exist in only in the compartment of 'mother of his children', and perhaps someone of whom to ask a favor occasionally. He isn't even outwardly blaming me any more; at the beginning I did get all the "you're holding me back" stuff, very openly.
I've become part of his past, in his mind, like any old girlfriend. Now he just recognizes that we have children, and still have legal ties.
Is that textbook? If it is it gives me some hope; because right now there is absolutely nothing else to go on.
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s that textbook? If it is it gives me some hope; because right now there is absolutely nothing else to go on.
Absolutely textbook. IMHO Until the MLC'er passes into acceptance, they are done!!! Even with my wife as I see so many "good" signs, 1 week ago we are talking divorce and its over. Maybe not as emphatically, maybe I don't believe it. (of course I never have) but she is still coming up with these words.
So when I say it is not over until YOU say it is over, I believe that.
How long you have to wait? Now that is a question I don't think anyone can answer.
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Of course, let's remember that each MLC situation and thus each MLCer is different.
Many MLCers in early Replay, after Bomb Drop, stop seeing the marriage as valid and thus they are no longer a couple with their spouse. But not all. For some MLCers this is most pronounced at this early phase, but for many others it is a more gradual emotional severing. They are confused in the beginning and change their mind, bou cing between the spouse and alienator, but as the light from the tunnel opening becomes less and less visible they wander farther away from the marriage as couplehood.
After a few years it is understandable even when you are not divorce and even when there is no divorce pending. They have become accustomed to the separated co-parenting life. An alienator in the foreground also may control them from considering the marriage partnership--ironically this can backfire and can enable cycling. Those without an alienator who is a major presence are single in tehir minds, that makes sense since they are single in their lifestyle.
We say that marriage is a piece of paper and thus so is divorce. Well and MLCer can say the same thing--marriage is a piece of paper and thus not real. Relationship is real.
But the thing is, not all MLCers stop thinking of their spouses as their marriage partner or of the two of them as a couple. They may cycle but for the most part consider themselves to be a couple. Is this normal? No, I don't think so. Is it rare? I don't know. Sweetheart felt our marriage was over and thus we were not a couple and he had no obligations as a spouse soon after Bomb Drop and off-and-on for the weeks before he moved out. It was off-and-on because he cycled and my changes were immediate--to the degree that when he was leaving for his new apartment, with tears in his eyes he said you're practically perfect now.
Bomb Drop was 20 March and he was able to move to the new apartment 3 May. The relationship with the OW went physical on 28 May and he announced he wanted to come home on 4 August. He cycled many times between those dates, but once he announced he wanted to come home and we moved him from the alienator's and stopped the divorce on 25 August, we were a couple to him. He cycled and came and left many more times, but I was consitently his wife in his mind. That is perhaps common with MLCers who are Clinging Boomerangs (Boomerang is what I've decided to label what I called Frequent on Rosie's thread a few weeks ago when describing MLCer contact types.)
Look at Amazing's thread in the Coaching Archives:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=13.0;all (http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=13.0;all)
Their divorce is legal and yet he does not seem to graps they are no longer husband and wife--it made no change...for the record, I don't think that is normal. Even most Clinging Boomerangs would acknowledge a divorce and may feel like they should stay away from their LBS even if they are unable to stay away.
Right now he is still as far gone as ever, actually, it feels like more so, because I just don't see anything. When I saw some depression recently at least it seemed like he was feeling or processing something. It's a long time after bomb drop; a short while ago it seemed that he wanted to spend time with us, now even that isn't showing at all any more. He's not even looking smug, or hollow-eyed, or anything -- nothing to give me any indication that there is any progress within him at all.
Have you considered the lack of a smug expression or hoolow-eyes could be progress. You are focusing so much on how I have said that even when the situation gets worse it is progress--since MLC gets worse before better--that you are not considering that eventually the progress will be improvements rather than things getting worse.
MLCers are not always going to indicate to you, the LBS, that they are progressing. Progress may be beneath the ground where seeds are growing and even the MLCer is unaware, but I think we are more likley looking at the need for space and solitude to progress--for some it is a Mars/Venus things. He needs to get away to process. I'm that way too. For me it is not the feeling of being overwhelmed, but of having no time to stop and think in a meditative fashion. I think in the car to and from work, but I'm doing that while driving. I also need time and space to think without anything else going on as a disruption. I need to be able to hibernate...for minutes or even days or weeks and for me that becomes frustrating because life get in the way when it is for weeks!
In my situation Sweetheart stopped talking divorce when we stopped the process. He used it as a threat a few times and the next Summer told me he was going to see a lawyer on a specific afternoon and left for a supposed appointment. But during those times it was all clearly bluffing--he did not seem authentic even when he took off to talk to a lawyer--or to fake talking to a lawyer. The next time he brought it up was two years later. He was searching for free advice on the net while in a resurgence of Replay behaviour. I was concerned and even made an appointment with my lawyer...just in case. But that pressure released the moment he moved out and I cancelled my appointment. Only a few months before that he was telling me that if I tried to divorce him he'd get to be the Stander.
He was a classic example of a cake-eater. He did not want to lose me as his wife--not just as a friend--but he refused to give up the alienator--a likely borderline personality who used emotional blackmail against him.
Why did he continue to see us as a couple?
Partly due to the nature of a Clinging Boomerang.
Partly due to his being a codependent personality.
And partly due to his trust in me as an authority figure/expert. I was able to use his doubts and guilt to our advantage. I told him he knew marriage was forever and adultery was wrong--not that I felt, but he knew. By saying this I also showed a faith in him that since he knew right from wrong, he would eventually choose right from wrong. He wanted so badly to believe in himself that he kept coming back to me to fill up his self-belief.
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Thank you for your response here, RCR. It is much appreciated.
I would love to think that H needs to get away to process -- you say you're that way, RCR, but you have also said that you are an introvert. H is definitely an extrovert.
I'm not trying to shoot holes in any argument, just trying to look at my individual situation, as we all are.
[After a few years it is understandable even when you are not divorce and even when there is no divorce pending. They have become accustomed to the separated co-parenting life. ..... Those without an alienator who is a major presence are single in tehir minds, that makes sense since they are single in their lifestyle. quote]
Exactly. The question is how to bring it back together from that stance. Yes, he could be processing, but historically he is a conflict avoider, and a never-go-back person, so it's more likely that he isn't.
Again, I want to give him that space, and understand that I can't fix him, on the other hand if this is the downward slope then it may be time for more interaction. I just wish I knew how to tell the difference.
He has said that all his friends have given up on him; they don't call. Does that mean that I should be the friend who does call? I don't have any indications that that might be the case.
...you are not considering that eventually the progress will be improvements rather than things getting worse.
Yes, again this makes sense. I guess what terrifies me is the continued complete lack of knowledge in which direction this will go. I so want to think that he is improving and will find his way home but ... and you know the rest.
It is as simple as what we want is for them to come out of it long enough to just put their arms around us and tell us that it will be OK. That is from Michele W-D's book...
I know some of these questions are the same ones; this is a good thread.
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TrustandLove,
I would love to think that H needs to get away to process -- you say you're that way, RCR, but you have also said that you are an introvert. H is definitely an extrovert.
You are focusing to much on the Myser-Brigg and not enough on the gender. Going into the proverbial cave is a male trait; I pointed out my tendency to show how it can be that way fro women too--and yes I am that way because I am an introvert.
After a few years it is understandable even when you are not divorce and even when there is no divorce pending. They have become accustomed to the separated co-parenting life. ..... Those without an alienator who is a major presence are single in their minds, that makes sense since they are single in their lifestyle.Exactly. The question is how to bring it back together from that stance.
That is the magic elixir everyone here is seeking. But there is not magic elixir; there is no guarantee. You do it by Paving the Way and letting your MLCer find the Way that you are Paving. He gets to choose too. But it is important that you have faith in his choices, trust and believe that he will find the Way which you are Paving. He will find it slowly and thus patience is necessary. Your have a great deal of fear because you want consistent signs and instead your MLCer connects and withdraws. That is how it works. I don’t see him so cycling so much as I see him getting some excellent doses of positive communication with you that require additional processing which requires that he withdraw.
He has said that all his friends have given up on him; they don't call. Does that mean that I should be the friend who does call? I don't have any indications that that might be the case.
You are overly concerned with his stubbornness about not looking back which causes you to worry and doubt. Hey, there is not guarantee, but is the worrying beneficial to your Stand? What are the negative effects of your worrying? Does it increase you anxiety, does it increase your need to check-up on him, contact him, increase the emotional level of discussions which is an increase in pressure? Maybe, but I think you’ve handled the interactions well. So well that initiating a contact is acceptable, show him you are his friend, but keep the initiation light or neutral. Just call to see how his trip went or something, show a personal interest in him that is not about the family or your relationship. Let him initiate those more personal discussions once you establish neutral contact.
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Thanks, RCR -- I already figured it out about the worry. They call it 'getting on the express elevator' :)
Actually, at the beginning he did once say that he had crawled into his cave.... so the gender thing resonates.
It's that narrower tightrope....
Faith is the name of the game.
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I don't know why I lose perspective so easily. Now reading back over the other posts it seems obvious that the MLCer views themself as completely seperate from the marriage. I thought my H was justifing the wrong by saying that our marriage was over a long time ago. I didn't realize (for some reason) that he truly believes that. It sounded like hot air, not his true belief.
We sat in church today--on opposite sides--and it was heartbreaking. My kids were with him and I was the one that felt seperate and alone. I don't look at us as a couple, but to me he is still my husband. I can't help but wonder when the D is final if he--or I--will feel any differently. I'm not sure how one erases years of marriage, history and memories simply by finding "love" with someone else and signing a document that declares that it is indeed over.
The posts on this thread have been helpful yet again in minimizing my panic. Odd that I don't feel panicked most of the time, but every now and then something happens that throws me off-track. It's nice to find solace and sanity here. On to a new week and with any luck, a few more baby steps forward, not backward.
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HB, I am so glad you wrote this and that I read it. I confess I never put 2 and 2 together that h saying we were separated therefore not married that he actually feels and believes that! I suppose I just thought he was trying to hurt me with comments like that because he knows what buttons to push. It didn't dawn on me that he actually believed that. However, I suppose it's a way they can justify their actions if they convince themselves they are not married, therefore free to do whatever they want!
Since I am not the only one who missed this, I wonder if it's because we can't see the forest for the trees because we're smack dab in the middle of it. HB, with you having gone through this yourself and also with your husband, some of these things may seem obvious to you but have totally escaped the rest of us. And I'm sure you know that we can read or be told something over and over and it doesn't click until we read it again and it just totally makes sense to us all of a sudden! The lightbulb finally goes on! I just viewed my h acting like we weren't a couple or acting like he was doing things with me out of obligation because he was being a jerk!
So, now I know that not only does h actually believe all the things he's projected onto me, all the re-writing of history, and the insistence that he never loved me.......but, he actually believes we are no longer married. I guess I keep forgetting that no matter how long h has been a Christian and how much he knows his Bible, he will ignore all of that to justify his confusion and depression.
Thank you HB for sharing this and I'm praying that God will refresh your memory for other things you may have forgotten that could be a help to the rest of us. You continue to be a blessing to me. :)
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CK
You might benefit from doing some study on "depression" It is a "mental illness". So when someone is depressed they act in a "crazy" manner. Until you understand mental illness you may never get your head wrapped around MLC.
It is easy to look at our spouses and think there is nothing wrong with them, however mental illness is not something you can see. There is no missing arms or legs, only their brain is missing, and you can't see that.
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This is a great thread, everyone.
I have no idea where I fit into this MLC craziness. My H is still at home, but removed his wedding ring a year ago. He says if anyone asks, he tells them he is married. I'm sure in his mind, he views us as just roommates. He doesn't touch me for any reason, unless he needs to get my attention (ie. passing the offering basket at church). He has told me that, in spite of urges to experience other relationships, he has not betrayed. On the other hand, he says he is not committed to me...only our children. He feels a separation or divorce would be too hard on our children, but has no desire to "try" to work on the marriage.
My life has become a virtual tennis match...back and forth. For the most part, I have detached. I think in the body of the man is a scared little boy. I believe he views me as his mother and wants to escape me.
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Oh WOW!!! My H said the same thing to me. That he no longer considerd me his wife and he didn,t want me any more and I needed to get that through my head. That was right after we seperated and he was seeing OW. At least I know I am not alone. But we have been NC since then.
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OW is planning a surprise 40th for my H this weekend. Lots of drinking, a live band, fun, fun, FUN (along with their newborn daughter) and STILL I keep thinking, "Wait a minute. Why am I not invited to the party?" Guess it's figurative as well as literal. My H has his own home, a new baby; still I don't feel single or divorced and yet he views me as the mother of his children. Period. So hard to get this through my thick skull. Glad I'm not the only one.
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Oh, that hurts. I'm so sorry WM.
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I believe he views me as his mother and wants to escape me.
This I am sure of! Very typical MLC!
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This I am sure of! Very typical MLC!
In a way, yes, and in a way, no....my husband didn't see me as his "mother" I was the total OPPOSITE of his mother...in essence, my husband married his sister who raised him...I was very much like his sister in personality.
His mother on the other hand had abandoned him to his sister who raised my husband. His Mother was VERY controlling, conniving, manipulating, and just plain out mean.
Enter OW, as my husband was repeating an area of his life where he'd never broken the cord with his mom...and his mom was already gone, so OW was her.... and, though it didn't look like it, he tried to protect me as he was trying to end the affair, and things got out of hand, resulting in the EA going to a PA.
He'd not told her he was married, he'd taken his wedding band off when he left home, then putting it back on when he came home, but I didn't know that until later on.
Now, I was NOT shown OW UNTIL the EA went PA....and when I asked questions, I got answers I did NOT like at all. Apparently, the friendship had just been that, a friendship where she made him feel "special"....she was different, just as HE was different...and say what you will, but I understood that he never meant for it to go as far as it did, but it did. When I "turned back" after I busted him in internet porn; it didn't take him long to figure that I DID love him, and something happened to begin his "awakening".....he and I were both raised that you didn't mess with married people, and so he thought that when he told her he was married, she would "dump" him...and it didn't happen...he wasn't dealing with a "nice" lady...he was dealing with a nut, who proceeded to get his home number, and try to call me...in the hopes that I would throw him out, because she was in "luv" with him, and wanted to keep him..
I further understood, that he treated her much the same way he treated me; only the disrespect for her was worse than it had ever been for me.....he didn't talk to her about anything, just kept her attention on him....the selfishness was something else. Heck, they were BOTH selfish.
He did things to her that he has NEVER done to me...that was all I was told, I wasn't shown what they were, and I'm not sure I would have wanted to know....I was so frightened as I was going through the showing that I never asked about that.
Things started falling apart, and taking advantage of his hormones all out of control she "tricked" him into bed with her...three times and the signs fell ALL three times...things were getting worse at home, as I was going all to pieces myself...and though on the surface he was making fun of me, it was tearing him apart. Yet, the affair was an addiction, and she kept pestering him...when she got him into bed and thought she'd "won" she started showing her true colors which drove him BACK toward me, as he did not want this..he was coming back, so to speak, and though he'd been drawn to her because of her ways, as time went on, he realized he did NOT love her, he loved me, and couldn't rid himself of me....I don't know if that was good or bad...but it doesn't matter. He was also realizing he was in over his head, and as he began to see her in a different light, he found he was staying on edge most of the time.......not fairly calm like it had been with me; and he wanted his life back with me, but didn't know how he was going to do it.
The straw that broke the camel's back was when he told her to leave him alone, he wanted to work on his marriage, and she cursed me....and for him, that was IT...it was one thing when she piled abuse upon him, but he'd already told her to leave me alone, I was innocent in this, and therefore was to be left alone......that final confrontation pushed him off the edge, and he told her NEVER to call him again....she continued for awhile, then stopped.
In that process, she "purged" herself of him and the affair; which was WHY she did not know him when he called three months AFTER the affair finished. I would have to explain purging...I did it and as result, my memories are not what they were....it is necessary for healing, but only occurs when you are ready to do so; AFTER processing what has happened to you.
The bottom line was that OW was his "mother" and he broke the cord that had bound him to his mother.....this is but one example of how OW/OM/OP is used to "relive" something unfinished in their lives.
You MUST be careful that your husband does NOT view you as his mother in ANY way....it's not good when that happens....be his friend, be his lover, be anything but his mother.....
Even though my husband did what he did with OW, I had to be VERY careful that I was NEVER viewed as his mother...I remember him saying at one point we had to become friends first, and then if we got that far, we would become lovers.....I did this wrong, ladies, I told him a couple of days afterward, that "Friends don't do these things to each other."....and watched him crawl deep within his cave...that was a few weeks before I totally "got it", and started changing.
At first he was suspicious, but consistency was key to him beginning to come around more toward me....and it was like dealing with wild kittens...I got scratched a few times, but after awhile, he started forward in a more positive way, more receptive to my friendship...but it took time to bring this all around.
And that doesn't mean that I did it right ALL of the time, I didn't...I made mistakes, causing both to fall backward, and then had to endure consequences for my actions/words within a situation...and ride it all out once again, coming back around the circle to the spot where I'd made the mistake.
Round and round we went. :)
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goodness -- I used that line about friends not doing things like this to each other too. At the time I thought I was doing the right thing; now I see how that didn't improve matters any.... That was shortly before his confession letter.
The bit about seeing me as his mother is also something to watch out for. I think there is some of that in my H -- because of our situation with the children I did become very much the devoted (and panicked) mama first; that obviously didn't help anything. And as he began behaving in a more immature manner I'm sure I responded in a way that must have seemed parental.
I think I've knocked that one on the head, but it's another tightrope to walk.
It probably doesn't help that he was his mother's favorite, and she is now very ill with a degenerative illness and isn't able to be a mother any more.
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I can relate to so much of this. H says our marriage ended the day I filed for divorce. He feels he is free to do as he pleases because he is done with me. Nevermind the first time we divorced he wore his ring until he received the papers in the mail that it was final. This time around we haven't signed anything, no court, nothing.
Last winter H compared me to his mother. Said that when I said something that didn't make sense or was emotional it made him feel like he had to protect himself from me. I could hurt him with my being emotional. His mother would get beat up and kicked out of the house and H would beg her to stay out and she would go back. If you show emotions you are not "stable" in his mind and need protected from. Not sure what I can do to change this.
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HB, I think in your case he married someone opposite of his mother on purpose.
I think I did the same thing also. And my wife married someone opposite her father.
However now in crisis mode she wants to compare me to him.
So maybe it depends on the R with mother or father.
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rdy2lv,
WOW. So true here also that emotions are "irrational" and "negative". H sees things all good or all bad. Others are either on his side or against him. :-\
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Writingmom,
Sounds like your H is like mine on that one. It is black or white - that is it. I told him years ago that there is a grey area too and I want to live in it. He also recently told me that he didn't want to be with anyone because he couldn't deal with anyone else's emotions. He was having enough trouble with his own.
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HB, I think in your case he married someone opposite of his mother on purpose.
I think I did the same thing also. And my wife married someone opposite her father.
However now in crisis mode she wants to compare me to him.
So maybe it depends on the R with mother or father.
You're absolutely right, OP. Your wife is looking for someone "familiar", in short, trying to "turn" you into her dad, but failing, because you are NOTHING like her dad...and you know you cannot fall for this as it would NOT work; so you have to stand your ground firmly; continuing the path you are on at this time. That in part is what triggered the episode you two had.
I seriously doubt my husband married the opposite of his mother on purpose, OP.....he wouldn't have known what he was doing at 22 years old...believe it or not, my looks drew him, initially, but my heart was what kept him....he was shallow and selfish, even at that time, and I didn't see that clearly until I saw him in true reality as I took my journey to become what I became; a more mature and balanced person..well, I don't know about the balanced part, LOL!! I fell OFF the tightrope more than I walked it, LOL!!
I know he said while within the crisis that he'd known I was the ONE the very first time he met me, and he didn't even know me, yet! :) I was his first love; he'd told me this, also. Sounds sappy, I guess, but coming from a man who still does NOT compliment me or encourage me in ANY way, this was something.
If I didn't encourage myself, I sure wouldn't have any of that from him...do not know why he is that way, but he is..haven't experienced ANY change in that direction yet. It's ok, though, I accept him for what he is, and have learned to live with lack of compliments, encouragement....that was my dad's way, too. I would always take negative comments and turn them around into something positive....don't tell me I CAN'T..I'll show you I CAN was my motto, and still is. I have to really get into something that's totally beyond my reach before I will admit defeat, and I've faced defeat many times, and just as many successes in my life.
I don't let it bring me down, though...I just keep going and going like the Energizer Bunny. :)
I'm so stubborn, it's unreal, and that has served me very well in my life....and it's been my downfall, too. :)
Ok, got something for you to figure out:
Now enter me playing "devil's advocate". :)
Ok OP, how do you explain ME marrying someone who was just like my father in temperament? :) This explanation, I've just got to hear from you, to see what you think about it. That might also explain why I didn't do what my husband did while I was within the transition, regardless of the fact I stayed clear of wrongdoing, knowing it was wrong.
I was ALREADY playing out my "replay" of my childhood with my HUSBAND, figuring that out while he was in his MLC! LOL!! I will explain more after I hear your answer to my question.
I know the answer, but I want to hear what your thoughts...I don't have any "virtual" cookies, to give you for correct answers, but let's see if you can explain this to me. :) You might have a viewpoint that I've never heard before, and it most likely would be right. :)
You're not going to hurt my feelings, so out with it. :) And you probably won't be telling me things that I don't already know. :)
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rdy2lv,
WOW. So true here also that emotions are "irrational" and "negative". H sees things all good or all bad. Others are either on his side or against him. :-\
This struck a chord for sure. All good or all bad. It can't be grey. Never thought about it before.
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I seriously doubt my husband married the opposite of his mother on purpose, OP.....he wouldn't have known what he was doing at 22 years old...
This would be a subconsous(spelling) decision. He would not even realize that her was doing it.
How do you explain ME marrying someone who was just like my father in temperament? :)
Well it obviously fills one of your needs. Now the question is what is that need? You are challenged by your father and your H, and your stubborness to succeed carries you through. I am also very stubborn and your description of that trait is one that I subscribe to.
Am I right that your H and your father were good listeners? Just a hunch in that you are very "bubbly and that would complement your personality. HB are you similar in personality to your mother? If they got along well then it would make sense that you married someone similar to your father.
I am not sure I have got to much else to add.
Other than I repeat I think it all depends on the relationship someone has with the parent of the opposite sex.
Oh by the way I am about 2/3 done with the needs book. It is very similar to Gary Chapman's - Five Love languages.
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Am I right that your H and your father were good listeners?
You are correct, OP in that observation. :)
I was the opposite of my mother, OP; she was a quiet person, and I was more like my dad in personality; a very outgoing person who loves people and loves to talk(can't you tell by my LONG posts? LOL!)My dad and mom were total opposites...my dad was a very outgoing, well thought of man...at least to the people who knew him at his work and other places...at home, he was a totally different story; abusive in an emotional and physical way; he had NO self control..he had a fear of authority, and was sneaky at times.
He was also controlling, manipulating, and challenged me because he told me many times as I was growing up that I would NEVER be worth a dime or make it in this world...something that would normally destroy one's confidence..and it hurt me, as I DID have low self-esteem, low self image, and my confidence in myself was not good...on top of that, I was a perfectionist, and way too hard on myself.
The emotional pattern continued when I married my husband..the physical abuse was NOT continued there; I drew the line about that before we married...and spent the first year or so of our marriage having nightmares about what I suffered as a child in the way of beatings that came from my dad. I carry physical scars to this day from those beatings that were admininstered with sometimes anything that was within reach..most of the time it was spark plug wires, fan belts, or extension cords with the plugs turned outward.
And I shouldn't ever wonder why I took 6 years to navigate The Change, besides my husband slowing me down; I had ALOT to process from both my childhood AND my marriage. :) I'm no longer damaged from what happened, I remember, but don't remember..and sometimes I have to deal with someone who suffered in this way, and I use my experience to help them understand they're not alone, and we can accept, forgive and heal from the damage.
Within my marriage, my husband treated me like a child, belittled my accomplishments, was never interested in what I was doing in my life, withheld his love if I didn't act or think like he thought I should...he was totally controlling and sometimes manipulating..he did that, and I ALLOWED it in ignorance for the first 15 years of our marriage.
When my dad died the 9th year we were married, my husband changed, or seemed to, and for two years, he became what I needed, but I had still learned NOTHING in the way of boundaries;(neither had he) and when my husband's mother died, he reverted right back to what he had been for then on until his MLC, when things got REALLY bad.
My "guide" or sounding board of a sort that helped me through it, also helped me to do the "mirror" work; the Lord used her to show me that my husband had had TOTAL control of me, he was the puppeteer, and I was the puppet. And although, I let him go in the beginning of his MLC, he didn't want that at all, he thought I was out growing him, and when he couldn't regain control of me, he went further into the tunnel....at least until the bomb that took the form of internet porn dropped on me, and then a couple of months later OW showed, and I nearly went crazy both times. I turned back THEN turned on him..and you know the story..but the point is that my husband had decided that I didn't love him anymore, never mind that he didn't love ME anymore, either...at least during that time.
He equated love with control, and love is NOT controlling, but I had to teach him that as I laid my boundaries down to stop the total disrespect cycle that had started.
When I wouldn't allow him to control me, I stood the chance of losing him, and I knew that..but I also knew I couldn't live like that anymore...and took steps to break the cycle..the tantrum I spoke of that I triggered within my husband.
Anyway, we generally look to find what is familiar to us, and we subconsciously repeat a cycle of life that we are familiar with, that is what my husband did with me,(because his sister mostly raised him) and it is what I'd done with him....so you're correct, OP. :)
What got sticky, was when I broke the cycle of emotional abuse, setting a boundary and making a stand, I was GAMBLING that I could lose my husband over it...now, the Lord told me it wouldn't happen, but there was always that chance he could have changed his mind at any time and still left, but I decided within myself that I would NOT take emotional abuse anymore, and I continued to shoot it down when he would try it even as he came out of the tunnel.
Old dogs, new tricks, and I had to keep after him until it was complete.
Takes time to learn better habits of dealing with people..and it took him time, too, just like it took me time. :)
Marriage is a vehicle to learning, and I learned that lesson well. :)
You did fine, OP, considering you didn't have a lot of detail on me...sometimes detail will be needed, sometimes not..it will always depend upon the situation at hand....you will find as your insight/intuition continues to grow that you will "know" things without being told; get used to that, it is important that you develop this talent...your perception will deepen, and you will find yourself "drawing" things out of situations without realizing it...it will get natural for you after you adjust to it.
You are already doing this to some extent, and I will say this, although I think I said it before...you are much further along and developed than I was when I pushed my husband into his tantrum....someone else had to totally guide me into it...I was only there to confirm what you ALREADY knew would need to happen; you were just not sure about it, was having trouble trusting yourself, and that's all right; we all need help sometimes....and I'm thankful the Lord placed me just where I needed to be to help you.
That is what I'm here for most of the time, to help people draw the answers from within them, confirm their feelings and point out things they cannot see because they are mostly too close to their own situation...the proverbial forest of trees. :)
But, as people learn to deal on their own, that is usually when I'm drawn backwards, I'm supposed to do that after helping one develop a strong intuition that is already there, but just needs a confidence boost, and some help in growing.
You do not give yourself enough credit, OP...I can't say I'm an expert YET. There's so much more to learn, and you learn as you go....I've answered MANY questions over time, and sometimes I STILL need help..and I turn to the Lord for that....sometimes someone human is sent to help me, sometimes not; it depends upon the situation at hand.
God works in mysterious ways for sure. :)
Have a good one, and thanks; I apologize if I seemed to put you on the spot, I didn't really mean to, but the thought of giving you a little exercise crossed my mind, and I did NOT mind you analyzing me at all.
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"Anyway, we generally look to find what is familiar to us, and we subconsciously repeat a cycle of life that we are familiar with . . ."
Interesting - I see my H in MLC repeating behaviors/personality traits of his dad's that he has always complained about. He was never like this before, or at least nowhere near this extent. Unfortunately, I don't think he sees it at all.
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Well I certainly agree that we all carry scars from our childhood and parents. It is very interesting the way it all fits together.
Thanks HB for the exercise. It was fun. No worries about putting me on the spot. I figured if I was wrong what are you going to do, hit me with a internet 2x4. That doesn't really hurt. LOL
I hope everyone else reading along gets something from this.
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Thanks HB for the exercise. It was fun. No worries about putting me on the spot. I figured if I was wrong what are you going to do, hit me with a internet 2x4. That doesn't really hurt. LOL
Wasn't going to hit you with anything, OP, LOL!! Not even the internet 2x4. :)
Trusting, for what it's worth, your husband doesn't realize he's acting the way he's acting right now; he's sorting through himself and all the facets and aspects of his personality at this point, trying to decide how he might "repackage" himself, that comes long before the "disintegration", he will experience later on.
It's kind of like he's "trying on" different things to see how they might work for him...I remember seeing flashes of the old, flashes of the new, and many weird things went on for a short period of time within my husband, this was before he broke Withdrawal, and I saw them again, as he went into Acceptance, but he disintegrated fully once he crossed over into the final stage.
Don't let it worry you, this is normal to see things you've never seen before in him, as you'll see flashes of differing aspects...let it go, let it pass on by and don't comment on it; he really doesn't see it within himself.
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Not that he's there yet, but I'm also seeing flashes of old, new, and different. It's interesting.
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Bumping for the information that's here...I will NEVER again simply assume that people "know" that when the MLC'er goes into the tunnel; the couple that was once seen is no more until much later in the tunnel..that is, IF the MLC'er chooses the marriage; instead of a couple of alternatives, such as walking away, or marrying the OW/OM.
READ this thread; it will help answers some questions for you newbies; I hate repeating myself over and over; and this is but one of the aspects of the MLC.
Since I have not seen this question repeated; I'm thinking that no one has come to this conclusion, as yet. :)
Have a good one. :)
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Excellent thread! Thanks for bumping.
I remember reading it back then, but this time through I got totally different stuff from it.
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My H is confusing to me.
I think he's been back and forth on whether or not we are a couple. Whatever serves his purpose.
At some point, maybe after the 1st year, he had said that he knew we were married but we weren't really married. I think really most of the time he hasn't seen us as a couple or he wouldn't be able to do the things he has. He told me he wouldn't have been with OW if he thought we were getting back together. But he was with her after he told me he couldn't commit to the D, so there was at least a chance we were getting back together and he did it. Hmmm. These are the things that I don't know how we'll work through if we ever get the chance.
This past summer I said to him that he didn't see us as married and he said that wasn't true?? So I guess he did see us as a couple. That would fit with his actions this past summer. He started taking care of the house, which he hadn't done in 3 years.
He doesn't introduce me to people as his wife. That hurts me.
Anyway, he's gone again and I don't know what our future holds. I'd like to believe he's in depression/withdrawal and may be starting to work on his issues, but he may have headed back into replay. Not sure.
On the surface my H is nothing like my father, but the passive aggressive personality is there...
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My H still refers to me as wife, however he seems to have compartmentalized my role or "job" as wife separate from the relationship. He was a clinging boomeranger and for my own sanity, I had to push him away. He quickly learned I would discuss "job" stuff but no R talk.
In thinking about this topic, I wonder if their ability to use this defense mechanism, compartmentalization, as well as justification, determines how much distance they need.
My H (I believe) thinks that as long as he is not sleeping with me, he is maintaining his integrity. He can do what he wants b/c he doesn't live here with his family. He is still meeting his financial obligations to us so he is a good guy. :o
Other MLCers seem to need legal back up (LS or D) to feel ok about what they are doing.
I'll give this more thought...
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My H also sees himself as the good guy because he meets his financial obligations. He did try to rush a D right at the beginning, but dropped that and hasn't mentioned it since -- for over 3 years now. He has once or twice referred to me as his wife since he left, but basically has compartmentalised things totally.
LGO, I, too, seem to have the "job" of wife -- definitely not the relationship; every now and again he talks some, but that is all. I've asked him once or twice what he wants from me, he doesn't have an answer. In a way that's good -- it does indicate confusion, i.e. MLC....
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In thinking about this topic, I wonder if their ability to use this defense mechanism, compartmentalization, as well as justification, determines how much distance they need.
Now that is very possible, LGO; it also depends on how much pain they are in, and how much of a failure they perceive themselves to be.
The crisis is very similar to a "starting over" and an ending must be had before a "new" beginning can be achieved.
That may also be why most MLC'ers don't recognize their LBS' as meaning anything to them; not even as their wives...or even their friend, girlfriend.
It's like a "void" exists for a period of time in regards to a longstanding relationship....now, we KNOW the MLC affair is a band aid for their pain; and it's not a "real" relationship; yet, those who get "stuck" and marry these types of people; are continuing in their own brand of "denial"..which extends beyond the actual stage they went through before.
Both people in these types of relationships are always trying to stay "young" and think that time has "stood still" for them...and they are surprised in the end, to find they are just as mortal as their counterparts who've resolved their crisis; and gone on to make/rebuild a much stronger marriage than they had before.
I sincerely believe they never completely get away from the crisis, even though they are stuck within its clutches....I also believe that once death is near for them; they go through a final crisis of a sort; but then it's too late to do anything about it...so they are tormented until they die.
I say that because of a man I once knew that had done many bad things in his life; and I believe now, he'd gotten stuck in the tunnel...I don't remember how old he was; I tended to him when I worked in the nursing home many years ago...but every couple of days, he would start ranting and raving; crying and cursing. It was said that he'd molested one of his children, and had done some other things that were unthinkable; but I don't know that for sure..I just knew from talking to him that he'd done many bad things in his life...some things he said smacked of the tunnel; I remembered them as I was learning about the crisis before.
You'd ask him about his wife, and he would tell you he either had no wife, or he "got rid" of her sometime ago...I found out he gotten divorced years back...and now, thinking about it, I wonder.
Didn't mean to go off track, slightly; but it's been something I've been thinking about for some time. :)
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That was very intersting HB, my H father, had a full MLC. He divorced his wife, knocked up another and then married yet another. My MIL died before he could make it up to her (if he would have???) She died about 4 or 5 years after BD. Anyways, he spend the remainder of his life married to this other women and hated it, they where not happy but stuck. In the end, he moved out and was trying to D her but he was cover under her medical and he was very ill, so he couldn't and he live up to the nursing home in his own apartment, he never went back to her. I think he got stuck because his wife died, he took too long, and he couldn't make amends, or he was just the type to get stuck but in the end of his life he crisis again.
What sad about this story is it's mine, now. Both H father and mother where high school sweethearts like us, so we all married young. Now mines having a full blow MLC, and at present it not looking good for him to ever what to come home. I am just waiting for him to knock up OW. I often wonder if I already know the out come of this just look at his father foot steps.
I was young when my MIL when through this, I feel really bad because I didn't understand her hurt like I do now, plus I never though very much of his father, he was a gross nasty man that did mean things to my H, MIL, and some of his kids. I would never have married anyone like my fIL, boy did he have me fooled. I just grossed myself out. (sorry about speaking ill of the dead)