[OldPilot]

s that textbook?  If it is it gives me some hope; because right now there is absolutely nothing else to go on. 

Absolutely textbook. IMHO  Until the MLC'er passes into acceptance, they are done!!!  Even with my wife as I see so many "good" signs, 1 week ago we are talking divorce and its over.  Maybe not as emphatically, maybe I don't believe it. (of course I never have) but she is still coming up with these words.

So when I say it is not over until YOU say it is over, I believe that.
How long you have to wait? Now that is a question I don't think anyone can answer.

[Rollercoasterider]

Of course, let's remember that each MLC situation and thus each MLCer is different.

Many MLCers in early Replay, after Bomb Drop, stop seeing the marriage as valid and thus they are no longer a couple with their spouse. But not all. For some MLCers this is most pronounced at this early phase, but for many others it is a more gradual emotional severing. They are confused in the beginning and change their mind, bou cing between the spouse and alienator, but as the light from the tunnel opening becomes less and less visible they wander farther away from the marriage as couplehood.

After a few years it is understandable even when you are not divorce and even when there is no divorce pending. They have become accustomed to the separated co-parenting life. An alienator in the foreground also may control them from considering the marriage partnership--ironically this can backfire and can enable cycling. Those without an alienator who is a major presence are single in tehir minds, that makes sense since they are single in their lifestyle.

We say that marriage is a piece of paper and thus so is divorce. Well and MLCer can say the same thing--marriage is a piece of paper and thus not real. Relationship is real.

But the thing is, not all MLCers stop thinking of their spouses as their marriage partner or of the two of them as a couple. They may cycle but for the most part consider themselves to be a couple. Is this normal? No, I don't think so. Is it rare? I don't know. Sweetheart felt our marriage was over and thus we were not a couple and he had no obligations as a spouse soon after Bomb Drop and off-and-on for the weeks before he moved out. It was off-and-on because he cycled and my changes were immediate--to the degree that when he was leaving for his new apartment, with tears in his eyes he said you're practically perfect now.

Bomb Drop was 20 March and he was able to move to the new apartment 3 May. The relationship with the OW went physical on 28 May and he announced he wanted to come home on 4 August. He cycled many times between those dates, but once he announced he wanted to come home and we moved him from the alienator's and stopped the divorce on 25 August, we were a couple to him. He cycled and came and left many more times, but I was consitently his wife in his mind. That is perhaps common with MLCers who are Clinging Boomerangs (Boomerang is what I've decided to label what I called Frequent on Rosie's thread a few weeks ago when describing MLCer contact types.)

Look at Amazing's thread in the Coaching Archives:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=13.0;all

Their divorce is legal and yet he does not seem to graps they are no longer husband and wife--it made no change...for the record, I don't think that is normal. Even most Clinging Boomerangs would acknowledge a divorce and may feel like they should stay away from their LBS even if they are unable to stay away.

Right now he is still as far gone as ever, actually, it feels like more so, because I just don't see anything.  When I saw some depression recently at least it seemed like he was feeling or processing something.  It's a long time after bomb drop; a short while ago it seemed that he wanted to spend time with us, now even that isn't showing at all any more.  He's not even looking smug, or hollow-eyed, or anything -- nothing to give me any indication that there is any progress within him at all.

Have you considered the lack of a smug expression or hoolow-eyes could be progress. You are focusing so much on how I have said that even when the situation gets worse it is progress--since MLC gets worse before better--that you are not considering that eventually the progress will be improvements rather than things getting worse.

MLCers are not always going to indicate to you, the LBS, that they are progressing. Progress may be beneath the ground where seeds are growing and even the MLCer is unaware, but I think we are more likley looking at the need for space and solitude to progress--for some it is a Mars/Venus things. He needs to get away to process. I'm that way too. For me it is not the feeling of being overwhelmed, but of having no time to stop and think in a meditative fashion. I think in the car to and from work, but I'm doing that while driving. I also need time and space to think without anything else going on as a disruption. I need to be able to hibernate...for minutes or even days or weeks and for me that becomes frustrating because life get in the way when it is for weeks!

In my situation Sweetheart stopped talking divorce when we stopped the process. He used it as a threat a few times and the next Summer told me he was going to see a lawyer on a specific afternoon and left for a supposed appointment. But during those times it was all clearly bluffing--he did not seem authentic even when he took off to talk to a lawyer--or to fake talking to a lawyer. The next time he brought it up was two years later. He was searching for free advice on the net while in a resurgence of Replay behaviour. I was concerned and even made an appointment with my lawyer...just in case. But that pressure released the moment he moved out and I cancelled my appointment. Only a few months before that he was telling me that if I tried to divorce him he'd get to be the Stander.

He was a classic example of a cake-eater. He did not want to lose me as his wife--not just as a friend--but he refused to give up the alienator--a likely borderline personality who used emotional blackmail against him.

Why did he continue to see us as a couple?
Partly due to the nature of a Clinging Boomerang.
Partly due to his being a codependent personality.
And partly due to his trust in me as an authority figure/expert. I was able to use his doubts and guilt to our advantage. I told him he knew marriage was forever and adultery was wrong--not that I felt, but he knew. By saying this I also showed a faith in him that since he knew right from wrong, he would eventually choose right from wrong. He wanted so badly to believe in himself that he kept coming back to me to fill up his self-belief.

[Trustandlove]

Thank you for your response here, RCR.  It is much appreciated. 

I would love to think that H needs to get away to process -- you say you're that way, RCR, but you have also said that you are an introvert.  H is definitely an extrovert.

I'm not trying to shoot holes in any argument, just trying to look at my individual situation, as we all are. 

  [After a few years it is understandable even when you are not divorce and even when there is no divorce pending. They have become accustomed to the separated co-parenting life. ..... Those without an alienator who is a major presence are single in tehir minds, that makes sense since they are single in their lifestyle. quote]

Exactly.    The question is how to bring it back together from that stance.  Yes, he could be processing, but historically he is a conflict avoider, and a never-go-back person, so it's more likely that he isn't. 

Again, I want to give him that space, and understand that I can't fix him, on the other hand if this is the downward slope then it may be time for more interaction.  I just wish I knew how to tell the difference. 

He has said that all his friends have given up on him; they don't call.  Does that mean that I should be the friend who does call?  I don't have any indications that that might be the case. 

...you are not considering that eventually the progress will be improvements rather than things getting worse.

Yes, again this makes sense.  I guess what terrifies me is the continued complete lack of knowledge in which direction this will go.  I so want to think that he is improving and will find his way home but ...  and you know the rest. 

It is as simple as what we want is for them to come out of it long enough to just put their arms around us and tell us that it will be OK.  That is from Michele W-D's book... 

I know some of these questions are the same ones; this is a good thread. 

[Rollercoasterider]

TrustandLove,

I would love to think that H needs to get away to process -- you say you're that way, RCR, but you have also said that you are an introvert. H is definitely an extrovert.

You are focusing to much on the Myser-Brigg and not enough on the gender. Going into the proverbial cave is a male trait; I pointed out my tendency to show how it can be that way fro women too--and yes I am that way because I am an introvert.

After a few years it is understandable even when you are not divorce and even when there is no divorce pending. They have become accustomed to the separated co-parenting life. ..... Those without an alienator who is a major presence are single in their minds, that makes sense since they are single in their lifestyle.

Exactly.    The question is how to bring it back together from that stance.

That is the magic elixir everyone here is seeking. But there is not magic elixir; there is no guarantee. You do it by Paving the Way and letting your MLCer find the Way that you are Paving. He gets to choose too. But it is important that you have faith in his choices, trust and believe that he will find the Way which you are Paving. He will find it slowly and thus patience is necessary. Your have a great deal of fear because you want consistent signs and instead your MLCer connects and withdraws. That is how it works. I don’t see him so cycling so much as I see him getting some excellent doses of positive communication with you that require additional processing which requires that he withdraw.

He has said that all his friends have given up on him; they don't call. Does that mean that I should be the friend who does call? I don't have any indications that that might be the case.

You are overly concerned with his stubbornness about not looking back which causes you to worry and doubt. Hey, there is not guarantee, but is the worrying beneficial to your Stand? What are the negative effects of your worrying? Does it increase you anxiety, does it increase your need to check-up on him, contact him, increase the emotional level of discussions which is an increase in pressure? Maybe, but I think you’ve handled the interactions well. So well that initiating a contact is acceptable, show him you are his friend, but keep the initiation light or neutral. Just call to see how his trip went or something, show a personal interest in him that is not about the family or your relationship. Let him initiate those more personal discussions once you establish neutral contact.

[Trustandlove]

Thanks, RCR -- I already figured it out about the worry.  They call it 'getting on the express elevator' 

Actually, at the beginning he did once say that he had crawled into his cave....  so the gender thing resonates. 

It's that narrower tightrope....

Faith is the name of the game. 

[Writingmom]

I don't know why I lose perspective so easily.  Now reading back over the other posts it seems obvious that the MLCer views themself as completely seperate from the marriage.  I thought my H was justifing the wrong by saying that our marriage was over a long time ago.  I didn't realize (for some reason) that he truly believes that.  It sounded like hot air, not his true belief. 

We sat in church today--on opposite sides--and it was heartbreaking.  My kids were with him and I was the one that felt seperate and alone.  I don't look at us as a couple, but to me he is still my husband.  I can't help but wonder when the D is final if he--or I--will feel any differently.  I'm not sure how one erases years of marriage, history and memories simply by finding "love" with someone else and signing a document that declares that it is indeed over. 

The posts on this thread have been helpful yet again in minimizing my panic.  Odd that I don't feel panicked most of the time, but every now and then something happens that throws me off-track.  It's nice to find solace and sanity here.  On to a new week and with any luck, a few more baby steps forward, not backward.   

[covenantkeeper]

HB, I am so glad you wrote this and that I read it. I confess I never put 2 and 2 together that h saying we were separated therefore not married that he actually feels and believes that! I suppose I just thought he was trying to hurt me with comments like that because he knows what buttons to push. It didn't dawn on me that he actually believed that. However, I suppose it's a way they can justify their actions if they convince themselves they are not married, therefore free to do whatever they want!

Since I am not the only one who missed this, I wonder if it's because we can't see the forest for the trees because we're smack dab in the middle of it. HB, with you having gone through this yourself and also with your husband, some of these things may seem obvious to you but have totally escaped the rest of us. And I'm sure you know that we can read or be told something over and over and it doesn't click until we read it again and it just totally makes sense to us all of a sudden! The lightbulb finally goes on! I just viewed my h acting like we weren't a couple or acting like he was doing things with me out of obligation because he was being a jerk!

So, now I know that not only does h actually believe all the things he's projected onto me, all the re-writing of history, and the insistence that he never loved me.......but, he actually believes we are no longer married. I guess I keep forgetting that no matter how long h has been a Christian and how much he knows his Bible, he will ignore all of that to justify his confusion and depression.

Thank you HB for sharing this and I'm praying that God will refresh your memory for other things you may have forgotten that could be a help to the rest of us. You continue to be a blessing to me. 

[OldPilot]

CK

You might benefit from doing some study on "depression" It is a "mental illness". So when someone is depressed they act in a "crazy" manner.  Until you understand mental illness you may never get your head wrapped around MLC.

It is easy to look at our spouses and think there is nothing wrong with them, however mental illness is not something you can see. There is no missing arms or legs, only their brain is missing, and you can't see that.

[Still]

This is a great thread, everyone.

I have no idea where I fit into this MLC craziness. My H is still at home, but removed his wedding ring a year ago. He says if anyone asks, he tells them he is married. I'm sure in his mind, he views us as just roommates. He doesn't touch me for any reason, unless he needs to get my attention (ie. passing the offering basket at church). He has told me that, in spite of urges to experience other relationships, he has not betrayed. On the other hand, he says he is not committed to me...only our children. He feels a separation or divorce would be too hard on our children, but has no desire to "try" to work on the marriage.

My life has become a virtual tennis match...back and forth. For the most part, I have detached. I think in the body of the man is a scared little boy. I believe he views me as his mother and wants to escape me.

[hurt01]

Oh WOW!!! My H said the same thing to me. That he no longer considerd me his wife and he didn,t want me any more and I needed to get that through my head. That was right after  we seperated and he was seeing OW. At least I know I am not alone. But we have been NC since then.