[Writingmom]

I have been reading the coaching archive between RCR and Trust and Love.  At one point, (and I wish I knew how to add quotes like the rest of you) RCR said that she was concerned that TL's H no longer viewed them as a couple; that maybe in the beginning she voiced disapproval of the affair, but it wasn't resonating with him now.

Panic again!  I wonder now what I have done wrong.  I have not contested the divorce because I feel strongly that he will stop at nothing to get it done.  OW is pressuring him and I see my compliance not as approval, but maybe resignation?  Necessary for my own sanity?  I don't know.  Maybe I'm just a failed Stander, but I have always felt in my heart that reconciliation would be more likely after he took it as far as he possibly could; failed in every area possible.  He is an extreme personality anyway.  He is all or nothing.  He knows that I disapprove of the OW and baby.  But when I am dark or dim, how am I supposed to keep acting like his wife and expressing displeasure?

It hasn't surprised me to think that he doesn't view us as a couple, but in reading the coaching archive I feel bummed for some reason.  Do most MLCers still think of themselves as married?  My H likes to be friendly and has recently been very calm and compliant, courteous, you name it.  OW had baby 10 days ago and it seems as though he is in a good place.  He is still very much ready to get the divorce over with.  I don't think that he has stalled at all--ever.  Again, I guess I have bought in to the I'm-leaving-and-never-looking-back speech as though it is gospel, although I have secretly hoped I was wrong. 

I don't even know if what I'm saying makes sense.  I think I just felt shaken out of my reverie when I read that quote.  This is so difficult.  I go crazy trying to find balance between leaving him alone and letting him know I'm here and it makes the insanity even worse to feel like I'm doing something wrong!

[Trustandlove]

Writingmom,

I don't have a lot of time right now; just wanted to let you know that I've read this and will write more later. 

When RCR wrote that to me I felt a bit rattled as well; I've sometimes gone over everything I've done and thought where I could have done much better.  But the bottom line is that I don't think it has made particularly much difference.  Regarding voicing disapproval of the affair, as he denied there ever being one until relatively recently that made it interesting.  There wasn't officially anything to 'disapprove' of. 

[OldPilot]

(and I wish I knew how to add quotes like the rest of you)

I will give you three different ways to make a quote

1- Hit quote button in upper right. Delete text you do not want.

2 - When replying to message there is a button 6 in from the right side. Hit it and insert text between quote brackets.

3 - Note what quote brackets look like in preceeding two methods [Quote  ,  /Quote. There are brackets around these that I
cant type here or this will be quoted. Add text between brackets.

Hope that helps.

[Trustandlove]

Oh, no -- I'd written a whole, long reply, and it just disappeared. 

What you write resonates, Writingmom. 

I guess what I was trying to say, with a very long-winded explanation, was that in my case my H didn't see us as a couple from the day he dropped the bomb and left.  He took off his ring and even said the next day "it's good that I'm single, as work is so hectic".  My words when he left were "I love you very much, so go if you have to, but I'm not giving up". 

Despsite my many wobbles and wrong turns I think I have remained consistent to that view. 

All along I, too, have wondered if, had I handled things differently, this might look different now.  One thing wrong with that thinking is that it is thinking that I could have 'fixed' this in some way.  I can't.

I know there have been plenty of times, particularly the first year,  when I could have done much, much better, particularly on the 'being his friend' front.  And there were times that year when even he thought there might be a chance.  I do wonder if that might have made a difference, but there is little point in kicking myself, because I can't change the past.  In the end it was still down to him saying that he couldn't get 'those feelings' for me back, and to him being a couple was/is all about having those feelings. 

We've had a couple of cycles of trying to re-build a friendship, and then him running off to another relationship, or attempted relationship.   A year and a bit ago he again said that while we got on well and shared core values he wasn't attracted to me and therefore in no way saw any chance of us getting together. 

More recently he has admitted that he is still attracted to me. 

We'd been at another re-connecting point recently; maybe, as I'm more detached, this time will be different.  I just don't know, and boy, do I wish I did.    He had said that he liked being with us, and, for a while at least, was opening up to me more.  I'd love to see that as positive, but who knows. 

I have no idea if this means that there is less chance of him coming back or not.  Of course on the surface it seems like those who still see themselves as part of a couple are more likely to return. 

I know that the correct answer is that the only thing we can do is keep going for ourselves....

RCR, HB, others -- any other perspectives?

[Writingmom]

TL,

Thank you for the reply.  Your insight is very helpful and calming!  And you are absolutely right, we could kick ourselves forever for things not handled the "right" way and yet in the end, we cannot fix this by anything that we say or do.  Why do I keep forgetting the basics?

Your H sounds very typical from what I have read, that he is coming around again (albeit brief at times) to see if you can be trusted.  He probably wonders if you will throw it all in his face, if you still remain committed, etc...  He sounds textbook in that area!  It sounds as though you are doing everything that you should; validating when possible, remaining calm and not clinging.  I will be interested to hear how this progresses. 

I can't fathom my H ever coming around again EVER for any reason.  He likes to be cordial and loves it when we joke around (even in texting), but I question if that is his trying to manipulate the outcome of the divorce settlement some how.  I don't think so.  I truly believe that he wants me to be his friend and be ok with what he is doing!  That is the part that is difficult; knowing how to validate THEM but not their CHOICES.  We have such little communication that it's virtually impossible and sometimes it makes me panic to think that the opportunities are not there as they seem to be for others of you. 

Thank you again for the reply.  It helps to be brought back to the truth when my own inner chaos begins to take over!  I appreciate your perspective and look forward to hearing more about your situation.

[Trustandlove]

Thank you for your kind words, WM,

I also know what you mean about opportunities for communication not being available.... I often feel like I have so much less than others, that is what makes it so hard to resist trying to 'do' something whenever I do see him.   

[HeartsBlessing]

From the time the MLC'er enters the tunnel, and it is LONG before the bomb is dropped upon the unsuspecting spouse, the marriage has "ended" in the mind of the MLC'er, although, until the "bomb" is dropped, they try and carry like nothing is happening....and that is the biggest reason why the LBS is torn all to pieces...they NEVER knew anything was happening, and COULDN'T have fixed IF they'd known about it.

As the tunnel is entered, and the unrest begins...things unravel within the MLC'er; it's much like a "starting over" of some sort where everything that ever meant anything to them is lost within the fog that covers their minds.  They lose it ALL...and I remember those feelings of having lost everything, myself.  They fight these feelings at first (denial), then become angry(anger)....and something has to give...and that drives them over into Replay, where they are mired deeply BEFORE the bomb is dropped....by that time they are becoming MORE open about their dissatisfaction...and to try and make themselves feel better by looking at outside sources, they blame the spouse with everything.

They ALL go through this unraveling period where things are lost, not always for good, but quite a few things are buried deep within for a time...in their confusion, they scramble around desperately, wanting something to stop the pain, and then, enter the Replay stage where all the running behaviors are engaged to try and stop it, and in turn, it causes MORE confusion as the bomb is dropped and the LBS spouse tries to speak with the voice of reason; dealing with the MLC'er as if they are the same person the LBS has known all along...and the break is complete within the MLC'er's mind.

No one person has EVER done everything totally correct in their lives, but it is when the LBS stands against what they know is clearly wrong, the MLC'er breaks the marital bond, and steps out of the marriage emotionally...writing the LBS off as much as possible until the breaking of Withdrawal.

Their bodies are here, but their minds are elsewhere,  and the jusitifications start up, as well as the spewing that ensues...and the LBS, in the MLC'er's minds, aren't doing anything except holding them back from what they were supposed to have to begin with....the sense of entitlement is a strong one.

You know, I remember my mother telling my dad one time..and she was going through the change; I can see it now, but couldn't see it then...that she wasn't married to him anymore, and took their marriage license out into the yard, set fire to it, and BURNED it.....smart move, my dad said, now you can't prove you were ever married.  She told him she was never married to him, anyway, and never would be again.
They were still married when my dad passed away...my mother died 5 years later.


But it is like that...they END the marriage in their minds to justify their stupidity, and try and shut their conscience up.

They KNOW they are wrong, and they are AWARE they are wrong, although they DO suffer memory loss during the crisis...they are suffering greatly, and suffer to the point of some wanting a divorce in the hopes the pain will end...they still remember enough to KNOW divorce is a legal thing they would have to do/get to, in some minds, bring a TOTAL end to all the legalities/ties to the LBS.

But their MINDS and EMOTIONS have ALREADY severed the cord.

I thought you ladies knew this happens...it happened with me, too....my husband reached a time when he no longer saw us as a couple, just saw me as someone that was there to more or less look after him...it was MUCH later that he recommitted to the marriage; when he broke Withdrawal.  A short time afterward, our marital bond reattached itself, and I knew when that happened.

I figured all the talk about recommitting to the marriage said it all..and I guess I was wrong...I'm sorry; the question  had never come up before now.

After he broke and recommitted, it was a new beginning for us, a new foundation was starting to rebuild for our marriage....before, we'd been dating each other, his initiation toward me, and we were going through the process of falling in love once again as he was navigating Withdrawal....his reconnection with his family was happening during then, and he'd already been "courting" son long before....

Yet, I had remembered when the marital bond broke, it was LONG before the bomb got dropped on me, but being where I was at that time in my walk with the Lord, (I was not as developed as I am now)I did NOT recognize it....I felt a 'tearing' within, not long after a major fight we had almost a year BEFORE the bomb dropped...and I ran a fever...kind of passed it off, but that was the time my husband "broke free" of me and our marriage....and I did NOT know it.

It is a part of this crisis, and I do NOT know exactly WHY it happens, but it does...and it is part of the emotional battle experienced within the MLC'er as they, hopefully, come through the tunnel.

I don't know if this will help you understand things better...ask questions if you have them....I'm about ready to kill my computer..it's being slow today...anybody got a gun? LOL!!

[MarkedandHealed]

I remember when I said to him in the context of a talk we were having about me not supporting him financially (ie giving him my paycheck into a joint account) while he was "committing infidelity" and he let out a brief breathy laugh at that. My H doesn't say things out loud, but I know him so well that I know what he is thinking. He was definitely thinking right then "infidelity, we're not even married."

[trusting]

That makes total sense to me.  Hindsight is 20/20 and looking back, I was sensing that detachment from my H up to a year pre my first bomb (the one that didn't involve me, or at least he didn't say, just that he was really messed up).  It was nothing I could quite put my finger on, but I could tell that something was most definitely missing.  This man who had treated me so well for so many years was just different . . . didn't seem to care as much about me, my reactions, the kids, etc.  He was withdrawn.   Then he "lost" his ring after he took it off.  After his first lame excuse, the reason he gave was because he wanted to "be more independent" - huge red flag!  He was pretty much totally emotionally gone after the first bomb, though still going through motions until the second bomb where I learned I was the cause of his misery.  It is between those two that I think the suspected OW entered the picture. 

I am sure he didn't think then and still doesn't think of himself as married, which is why he still acts like he is on his own, doing his own thing, accountable to no one.

I do hope and pray for that recommittment from him someday.

[Trustandlove]

This discussion has been in my mind...  I'm writing to try to gain more clarity again.  Thanks for your post, HB. 

I know that my H really severed the bond nearly a year before bomb drop; he even mentioned a specific event where he said that he 'for the first time really thought about leaving the marriage' -- i.e. consciously.  It was a family party, and he spent much of the time in tears, outside -- blaming it on his cat allergy.  Obviously I knew something was wrong and did everything I could to try to help, but even I remember feeling like he was on another planet.  I do wish I had known about mlc then.  Turns out that the next day he went to see the tenant of the apartment that we owned to ask if he could move in if he needed to.  When he did leave, that's where he went, giving the tenant notice in the process. 

He told me all that at bomb drop, and several times afterwards, to reinforce the idea that he was 'done' long before he actually left. 

What is so hard for me now, and I know that my H hasn't recently been as horrible to me as many other mlc-ers have been to their spouses, is that in his mind nothing has changed.  He also feels that because so much time has passed, that almost by definition reconciliation isn't an option.  At the end of March he said so -- saying 'what, after all this time?', when the subject of love being a choice came up. 

What WM writes about his truly wanting me to be his friend and be OK with what he is doing resonates.  It's the 'being OK with what he is doing' that I have so much trouble with.   

Right now he is still as far gone as ever, actually, it feels like more so, because I just don't see anything.  When I saw some depression recently at least it seemed like he was feeling or processing something.  It's a long time after bomb drop; a short while ago it seemed that he wanted to spend time with us, now even that isn't showing at all any more.  He's not even looking smug, or hollow-eyed, or anything -- nothing to give me any indication that there is any progress within him at all. 

For him I exist in only in the compartment of 'mother of his children', and perhaps someone of whom to ask a favor occasionally.  He isn't even outwardly blaming me any more; at the beginning I did get all the "you're holding me back" stuff, very openly. 

I've become part of his past, in his mind, like any old girlfriend.  Now he just recognizes that we have children, and still have legal ties.

Is that textbook?  If it is it gives me some hope; because right now there is absolutely nothing else to go on.