Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: exiled on June 20, 2011, 05:55:32 PM
-
My W says she wants to divorce me because we are no longer on the same path. She is on a spiritual journey for
self-actualization and I can't join her since I will have to follow my own path to fulfill my own calling. She always has been a searcher for meaning but with MLC, she has gone off without me. She tells me that I need to find my own path because I am the one who is lost.
It is true. Compared to her, I am not ambitious. I tend to draw pleasure and satisfaction from simple things. I don't have to
go on a spiritual quest in order to find my life worthwhile. In the past, she thought we complemented each other because we were different. But now she would rather have a more like-minded companion for her journey. She may have a point. Sometimes I wonder if we are already thousands of miles apart and I am too stubborn to see it.
I've read many articles which explain midlife reassessment as a soul's attempt to align one's life with his true nature/gift so he can thrive as someone he is meant to become. Drastic changes are inevitable and some aspects of the old life will be discarded for the new birth.
Has anyone heard this kind of argument from your MLC spouse? What are your thoughts on this? Your comments would be appreciated.
-
Well, if you mean did my wife say those things or something similar.....then the answer is yes, I heard the arguement you are referring to. Although, there's a different term I would encourage you to use instead of arguement......that term is justification.
Here's some of what I (and many other LBS) have heard.
We've grown apart
We don't have the same interests
I want somebody more like me
When she tells you things like you are the one who's lost.....I think that would be Projection.....don't buy into it.
My thoughts on this.......typical MLC talk.
-
Could I also add to DGU's list: 1. I never should have married you.
2. We never were 'right' for each other (After 20+ years together, my H just got this
revelation).
3. I think there is someone out there who better suits me.
All of this is MLC projection onto the LBS and our MLCers use excuses like those above to try to justify what they are doing. I agree with DGU that we just cannot allow ourselves to buy into those rationalizations.
-
I don't have to
go on a spiritual quest in order to find my life worthwhile.
^^^ That right there is why you are not in a crisis and your W is.
I've read many articles which explain midlife reassessment as a soul's attempt to align one's life with his true nature/gift so he can thrive as someone he is meant to become. Drastic changes are inevitable and some aspects of the old life will be discarded for the new birth.
I would agree with that. It is the MLCer's insistance that everything around them must change in order for them to be 'happy' that is so distructive. The drastic change that is needed for growth in both the LBS and the MLCer is within, not without.
Just my .02...
-
Check out this Jungian psychologist James Hollis interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHk8kWFIzYg
My W thinks what Dr. Hollis says here supports her stance. She is deeply into this individuation business.
She thinks she is taking responsibility for her life by paying attention to her inner voice and trying to
become authentic to herself while I am being oblivious.
She claims her inner world has been sending her messages through dreams and other means to tell her that
she needs a new life.
I am curious what you people think about it.
-
Dr. Hollis says Midlife transition is an opportunity for one to review his life and
make new adjustments so that he can align his remaining life to fulfill his true calling.
There could be much pain and suffering during the adjustment period and relationships can
break apart but some of these are necessary to allow himself to become truly authentic.
The cause of MLC could be traced back to one's childhood, we've been told. But Dr. Hollis seems to say
MLC is a symptom when one's soul is in conflict with his life. In other words, the soul is
crying out to change the course because he can't stand the life he has been enduring. Hollis
gives credence to the MLCers common compaints that they have not been happy.
-
Let me first say I am giving this response without having watched the youtube link you posted.....so take that into consideration.
My issue with what was summarized is this. If the soul is in conflict with one's life (whatever that actually means), and the MLCer needs to change what they have been enduring, that leaves me with this question. Why would they end up having regrets?
I mean if you align one's soul with one's life, why would the MLCer later regret their behavior? And regretting their MLC behavior is common.
-
As a LBS, I find his message discouraging.
But since he is a heavy weight in Jungian psychology, I can't readily disregard what he says.
I am hoping that the wise people on this board have some good responses to his theory.
-
I am a huge fan of Dr. Hollis and Jungian psychology. If you are discouraged, you need to watch this piece again. He says in here that an MLC has it's roots in assimilation of other needs and values earlier in life. He says that if you came from a family that respected your individuality, you would never have a crisis, he also fails to talk about--though he does in his other books--the fact that some of us, like me, have crises much earlier in life that force us to indivisuate earlier, thus no need for a crisis. He also implies, though he does not discuss, because that is no the point of the piece that many transition without crisis.
I love him because he really identifies narcissism and individuation as opposites. He talks about how the midlife passage is most difficult for those who are afraid of self-introspection--thus the need to run. And he very clearly talks about projection of needs as the reason why people have affairs and why those relationships are so fleeting--because the affair partner also can't meet all the needs, because they have to be met from within.
This is really a piece worth watching, but listen closely, not just to what he says, but also what he does not say that you already know. It all fits, then read some of his stuff. He regrets some of his midlife choices which is why he is so committed to what he does.
-
Just my .02...
I don't think what he is saying justifies the MLCer's crisis. It seems to me that he is advocating deep self discovery without fear. He is talking about looking within, and taking personal responsibility as well. He specifically says at one point that to find your true self we must grow up and not blame their spouse or child.
Lots of babble, but my take was that it is in line with much of RCR's articles, though skewed maybe a bit more toward self discovery and not specifically about when the midlife transition turns to crisis.
I think your W is hearing what she WANTS to hear and twisting it to justify her actions. I have seen others on here twist the bible in the same way. Heck - my H even took things I said and twisted them to suit himself.
They do that a lot.
Anyway, regardless of what he is saying or not saying, or his credentials, don't let it get you down. My 'authentic self' says that hurting others is no way to find inner peace. ;) FTR, that wasn't what I got from listening to that interview though.
All in all, I thought the interview was interesting. Just my .02 though.
-
I did not find it encouraging or discouraging, so my comments will be affirmations of a couple of specific things Hope for Zen and LisaLives pointed out.
I agree with what Hope for Zen says about hurting others and not finding your inner peace.
LisaLives pointed out Dr Hollis is committed because he regrets some of his midlife choices. I made the comment earlier that "aligning one's soul with one's life" should not lead to regret. MLC behavior typically leads to regret.
Like Hope for Zen pointed out, MLCers in the emotional state they are in, can twist anything to justify what they are doing.
-
Aligning one's soul can lead to painful experiences, and regret for not handling the process well. I think what Dr. Hollis has committed his work to is helping people live more consciously, so their souls are always "right," thus avoiding MLC. He does not claim MLC is good or right, only that if we do not live consciously we bury too much that bites us in the butt at midlife. That's what happened to him. So yes, it can lead to regret. He is not sorry about where he is only that he did not and did not know how to take a better path.
And I think that's what I think about my H sometimes. He is taking a road to a place he has to go, and I think he is sorry for all the destruction he's causing even now, but he can't see a better road. It's like tearing down trees to build an interstates through the forest, when if he had been more conscious all along, he could see the paths that are already there.
He talks about the fear of facing oneself at midlife a lot, that is the fear that MLCers run from. Embracing conscious living means facing those fears EVERY day, not waiting until crisis. Sorry, I really do like him, and if you've ever read Getting the Love you Need, Keeping the Love you Have and Giving the Love that Heals, by Hendrix, they are on the same thinking. All really good books!
-
My W says she wants to divorce me because we are no longer on the same path. She is on a spiritual journey for
self-actualization and I can't join her since I will have to follow my own path to fulfill my own calling. She always has been a searcher for meaning but with MLC, she has gone off without me. She tells me that I need to find my own path because I am the one who is lost.
It is true. Compared to her, I am not ambitious. I tend to draw pleasure and satisfaction from simple things. I don't have to
go on a spiritual quest in order to find my life worthwhile. In the past, she thought we complemented each other because we were different. But now she would rather have a more like-minded companion for her journey. She may have a point. Sometimes I wonder if we are already thousands of miles apart and I am too stubborn to see it.
I've read many articles which explain midlife reassessment as a soul's attempt to align one's life with his true nature/gift so he can thrive as someone he is meant to become. Drastic changes are inevitable and some aspects of the old life will be discarded for the new birth.
Has anyone heard this kind of argument from your MLC spouse? What are your thoughts on this? Your comments would be appreciated.
I haven't watched the video yet exiled, but what you you say has come from your W is something similar to what I've been hearing from my W. I've also read about this in Andrew G Marshall's book, "ILYBINILWY - 7 steps to saving your relationship"
Like you, I think I derive pleasure and satisfaction from simple things in life. I'm more down-to-earth, introspective, pragmatic and not a dreamer. My W is artistic, a dreamer, people-focused and gregarious. She's criticised me for saying I don't need to re-evaluate my life after my parents died. She always wants "more", wants people around her, talking until the early hours over wine, dreaming and she seems to derive a lot of her self-worth from her career and caring for others. We are a case of opposites attract I think; but we compliment each other and that's why our relationship has worked (up to now). Now it seems I'm too different. Her Uni friends that came to our wedding told her that they couldn't see how it would work because I am so quiet and therefore we were so different, but she didn't care apparently. The ex-bf OM that came out of the woodwork is more like her than I am so it seems. :'(
-
So confused about the Hollis stuff for the following reasons:
1) If this MLC was a search for deeper meaning in life, somehow then I would have thought that the search would be a bit more to the right on the moral compass, you know, less lying and deception than during his previous "unhappy" life with me. But no, it appears that the search for true meaning in one's life begins with massive lies, betrayal and deception of the largest type. Interesting thought...and all this ends well and he becomes this much better person than he was when he was with me, is that correct? So there's no chance that this man's "real self" was a whining cheating lazy jerk, and he's just self-actualizing to get there in short order? Wow, I could have helped the xH with that one. He really didn't have nearly as far to go as he thought-
2) Secondly why, if they are on a search for "themselves", do none of them exhibit charitable traits, you know, where they sacrifice for others, isn't that what the higher meaning of life is all about? Seems that their search is to reach the highest plateau of narcissism. Yes, that they've got a shot at-
OK, I've read back over my post and it is all negativity. MLCers are very hurtful nasty people, and even after 2 yrs and spending massive amounts of time at the gym to get him out of my head, still have plenty of anger to let out.
-
I really do encourage you all to read some of his stuff. If you think about all of us being here for some "greater good" or purpose, we have to constantly question what we are doing to make sure that we are on OUR paths and that is really hard for some people, and especially in some families.
I always think of my favorite Emerson piece--we had to memorize this in high school:
"These are the voices which we hear in solitude, but they grow faint and inaudible as we enter into the world. Society everywhere is in conspiracy against the manhood of every one of its members. Society is a joint stock company in which the members agree for the better securing of his bread to each shareholder, to surrender the liberty and culture of the eater. The virtue in most request is conformity. Self-reliance is its aversion. It [That is, conformity.] loves not realities and creators, but names and customs.
"Whoso would be a man must be a nonconformist. He who would gather immortal palms must not be hindered by the name of goodness, but must explore if it be goodness. Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of our own mind. Absolve you to yourself, and you shall have the suffrage of the world. I remember an answer which when quite young I was prompted to make to a valued adviser who was wont to importune me with the dear old doctrines of the church. On my saying, What have I to do with the sacredness of traditions, if I live wholly from within? my friend suggested--'But these impulses may be from below, not from above.' I replied, 'They do not seem to me to be such; but if I am the devil's child, I will live them from the devil.' No law can be sacred to me but that of my nature. Good and bad are but names very readily transferable to that or this; the only right is what is after my constitution, the only wrong what is against it. A man is to carry himself in the presence of all opposition as if everything were titular and ephemeral but he. I am ashamed to think how easily we capitulate to badges and names, to large societies and dead institutions. Every decent and well-spoken individual affects and sways me more than is right. I ought to go upright and vital, and speak the rude truth in all ways... Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
— Ralph Waldo Emerson
MLC happens when people, mostly for FOO issues tamp down their souls and at midlife the costumes become so heavy that they shed all of it, trying to find their true soul. He does not argue that MLC is good or right, only that sometimes it has to happen. I think my H has spent his whole life failing to make his parents happy, though he has done all the right things. This is his attempt to run from it all, part of it is trying to make them happy, but at the end he is going to have to come to the realization that his happiness does not depend on pleasing anyone but himself, if he gets there...
-
i thought I would chime in here too..
I am ALL about reflecting and finding inner peace! my H on the other hand has always been selfish
all about him blah blah blah....my question here is...If someone going through MLC never see's that
it is all about themselves and becoming the person they were meant to be...how do they ever change?
at what point do they stop and say " hey, I'm being a total ass here, maybe I should look at myself now"
Where does it come from? They run and run from ALL truths...and maybe run forever and never look at
themselves...I guess what I'm trying to say here, is at what point does the MLCer look within? what
makes them do that? If they feel like the OP is better and happier for them. or that "they love the single life"
Never show to much sadness...where does the change come from???
I know I'm blabbing here...sorry! :)
-
Just a bit of a chime-in here. I've read Hendrix, and like him....
I guess the only thing I would say to the bit about the FOO tamping down the soul and now the costume becoming so heavy is that in my case I am the one with FOO issues; H grew up in a stable, loving and happy household. Perhaps not materially well-off, but that is all I can think of. By that definition it should be me doing this.
I do see a lot of its point, but when the new life is about only what the MLCer wants it misses the point. What they are doing is running away, rather than actualising. Those MLCers are going "whew -- the problem was spouse. Got rid of her. So by definition new person will fulfill all my dreams because we'll be starting with a clean slate and we'll both do everything right." That's not self-actualising.
-
Just remember the crisis is not the self-actualization part, the crisis is avoiding that because it's too painful. Hollis talks a lot about projecting and fear. And some of this is me, because I would have to go back over is stuff, but I would argue that my H has spend his whole life trying to live for his parents and fearing what he wants because it would never be good enough. People in MLC fear themselves, they fear they will ever be ENOUGH, so they keep looking for external sources to fill their needs. And some never do get out of the tunnel because they never face it, and some do, and they come to the peaceful place, that is the self-actualization part. The crisis is running from the inevitability that they have to do SOMETHING because they are suffering from dis-ease...
I have heard MLC referred to as a narcissistic temper tantrum many times and Hollis says narcissism is the opposite of individuation. At the root of narcissism is insecurity and that is what happens, rather than face the self, they wrap it in narcissistic supply to protect the fragile self. And it doesn't matter how good families look on the outside, people can ignore their true selves for lots of reasons--they may be gay, they may not but in their heart really wanted to pursue some other line of work the family would never understand, they may not have wanted kids, but had them because it was the right thing to do, we can go off our paths in so many ways that we think we can handle until at midlife it all snowballs and comes after us like the Grinch running from himself...
-
Trustandlove, good post. This type of MLC is a "disease" of rational thinking. People can write all the books they want on it. It won't change a thing. There's X amount of people on this site and NONE of them can report that their MLCer has "changed" for the better. Most, if not all, will tell horror stories and that their MLCer is heading towards rock bottom, not some "higher"/"better" place.
If finding you inner self/soul means abandoning all you once new ( including kids) and the doctors who write these books see that as healthy path for the MLC person then it is just brain washing to sell books/videos.
Get Dr Hollis in this forum! Lol.
Yes, a healthy mind can use those kind of books to "improve" one self or to recognize "more" of your surroundings so to speak but a person in a "destructive" MLC like this forum will never be mentioned in those books unless the person writing it is in the middle of one themselves and "glorifying"/"justifying" extremely poor behavior. ( which I actually have read articles on in which a woman was trying to get some backing on her reasoning for taking a job across country and leaving her children behind thinking they could still have a good relationship. She was feeling she was in a midlife and was trying to start a new trend on "abandonment" being ok! Lol)
No person would write a book after going through this type of MLC and glorify it period.
Please note: I do not follow any types of marriage books/MLC books, videos etc. As I know MLC to be a "disease" and the only way out is time or some good cognitive therapy which as we all know is useless as the MLCer "does not need therapy"! Lol.
Like it was stated above a few times. Regret will happen to most if not all in this type of MLC.
-
I think my H has spent his whole life failing to make his parents happy, though he has done all the right things.
I see this trait in my H too. He has been "good", trying to prove himself, to his father in particular, his whole adult life. He finally achieved quite a high level of success, had 2 children and nice (if I say so myself) wife, a good life, but his F still finds ways to put him down or at least downplay H's achievements in an almost competitive way. I guess he got to a point where he wondered why he even bothered and if he had been chasing all the wrong things his whole life. The fact that his Dad seemed to like me, did add to the questioning about why he married me. Of course our relationshipe predated my knowing his F, but H's issues are such a big confusing mess that I think it just became easier to run from it all than to work it all out. I don't know if he would have been capable of working it out without a crisis tbh. I hope he can work through it some day.
I see a lot of sense in the psychology expounded here. I know we don't like to hear anything that seems to imply that in some cases it is better for the marriage to end and none of us want it to be our own marriage where that is the case. The thing is there is no guarantee - MLC will hopefully end, our MLCers will hopefully not get stuck, hopefully they will be better people. But we just can't know about whether they will ultimately return. The only "known" right now is that they are on this journey alone and must go through it...
Rookie NONE of them can report that their MLCer has "changed" for the better
RCR, Stayed and HB all state that their spouses have changed for the better and also that they themselves have done so too. They claim that their marriages are better than before. There are people on here whose spouses are starting to come to the "other end" of the tunnel and there are glimpses of a desire to be better in them. The site is not very old and as the average MLC takes 2-5 years, it is unlikely that we would be hearing too many success stories yet. However a lot of us (maybe even me) may give up waiting before our MLCers come out of it - so they may come out better people, but it will not specifically affect us (except if we have children together it should make communication between us and the care for our children more of a priority for the MLCer)
-
Exiled,
I'm a big fan of Hollis' and I have the same "concern" you do. Glad someone's posted on this. Thank you!
I've read several of his books since BD 5 months ago: (The Middle Passage; The Eden Project--a must read for LBS's in my view; Tracking the Gods; Swamplands of the Soul; and Finding Meaning in the Second Half of Life.)
While much of what I've read in Hollis I find comforting, and all of it extremely well written and rich with things to ponder, some of it does unsettle me--big time. Like you/your W, Hollis makes me seriously consider if MLC can be a legitimate, albeit messy and destructive, quest for a higher, better, "integrated" self on the part of the MLCer.
My understanding of Hollis' thesis is that we spend the first half of our lives trying to accomplish the difficult, demanding work of separating ourselves from our parents and FOO; establishing ourselves in a career; making the social and professional connections that will aid these tasks; marrying and having children and accomplishing the demanding, exhausting work of that undertaking; and, all the while, developing and "perfecting" a personna that will help us do these difficult things--a personna that makes these tasks doable/easier for us, but which likely does not reflect our true selves; our sacred "Self" (with a capital "S"!) as Jung called it.
Our created "personna," as I understand Hollis, is what gets us into trouble in that it can (and does with most people) becomes a mask which, in midlife, it is necessary for us to shed/abandon if we are to become "individuated." Achieving "individuation" is Hollis' way of saying becoming who we were meant to be in this life, our true "Self."
Hollis is trying to elucidate Jung's famous statement, "We cannot live the afternoon of life according to the program of life's morning: for what was great in the morning will be little at evening, and what in the morning was true will at evening have become a lie."
Although Hollis makes "disclaimers" of sorts in some of his books that he's not promoting people leaving long-term marriages, he does seem to lean (in my understanding of him anyway) toward saying that people must do whatever it's going to take to shed the personna that's getting in the way of, or making impossible, the quest for their true Self.
In The Eden Project Hollis makes very clear that believing another person can make you happy is NOT the path of finding the true Self and is only going to lead to misery and dead ends. He touches upon in that book about the futility of people abandoning long term marriages because they've fallen in love with someone else who they believe is going to complete/save them. (And isn't that what almost all MLCer's claim the OP is going to do for them?)
Hollis has a rather clear-eyed (some might say semi-suspicious) view of the whole business of falling in love and romance. He clearly believes it's a temporary, hormonally induced state of nature, necessary for the continuation of the species, that has the potential of leading to long term, rewarding, real relationship with another but must always be seen as an addition to one's life, not the primary purpose of our existence.
He is critical of our society's worship of romantic love as the end-all-and-be-all of existence and is urging people to remember that no one outside of ourselves can complete or save us from the hard work of individuation in midlife.
In the two years leading up to BD, my H became a big fan of the writings of Joseph Campbell, who writes almost exclusively about the "heros journey," and even started attending a Campbell book discussion group. He hadn't discovered Hollis but I'm sure he would have loved him. In a convo with H about 3 months post BD I mentioned how much I was enjoying The Eden Project and H told me OW had given it to him to read! (I can tell you I had a bad sinking spell about that!) In an additional irony/knife in my heart my H and OW met standing in line for a lecture about spirituality!
I believe my H has been trying, albeit clumsily, to do the work Hollis talks about: shedding the mask, finding his true Self.
Like many/most MLCers, things that used to be important to him (possessions, being seen as a "good guy," his work, myself and his D) have taken a back seat in his life to his "quest" for whatever it is he's looking for. He would say it's for the true "Self" and that OW is part of that quest.
Problem is, from what I'm seeing, his behaviour is so typical MLC in his relationship with OW (she's a classic affair down/H's has said lots of crazy things, especially in the beginning, like wanting her to live with us, wanting me to love her as much as he does, believing our D would come to love her as much as he does) real La-La Land stuff that doesn't sound at all like individuation to me but more like running from the work of individuation.
So I guess my current take (and this could, of course, change) is that, in my H's case, he is on a legitimate spiritual journey to find his true self, but he took a detour, like Ulysses does when he stays with Calypso and Circe on their islands, a detour motivated by his desire to avoid the hard work of discovering/creating the true Self. He believes OW is the answer. But I thinks she's a quick fix to get him out of the pain of the birth of the true Self.
Great topic!
TMHP
M 58
H 60
D 22
M 38 yrs.
BD Jan., '11
H living with OW
-
Am I off base, or is a lot of this psychological terminology a fancy way of discussing the maturation process?
-
StandandDeliver, I agree that there are success stories. I was talking about the path a MLCer takes to get there. Some how books can glorify MLC leaving out the destructive path. I was just wondering if this path is the same as the doctors who write these books talks about. All the pain and suffering to have a "better" marriage, never mind if the kids will ever be the same again or what kind of damage they will carry in their lives. Do they ever touch on that stuff in these books? just curious.
-
No, DGU, I don't think you're off base.
I think there are healthy changes that we all could make around midlife -- such as a SAHM getting a job which means that other family members have to help out, a corporate climber deciding that the charity sector meets his needs more, which may mean other familly members having to adapt, and so on. Lots more there.
But someone deciding at midlife that he never really wanted to have kids but did because it was the thing to do and is now going to live the single life crosses the line for me. Sure, it does follow that if he had kids because it was the thing to do and now wants something more for himself that he should follow his "bliss", as RCR puts it, but that shouldn't, in my book, anyway, mean discarding the kids. I think this is where it gets twisted. They then blame the spouse for them having had the kids, and discard the spouse, say they aren't discarding the kids but kids get damaged anyway. It's the blinkers. It's the blinkers that in my book keeps it from being "self-actualisation" as opposed to a crisis.
Gotta run....
-
I agree TAL, Unfortunately though the MLCer has to go through a "shedding" period for 2-5 yrs before they come out a "better" person and in some form "admit" that all the shedding and the humiliating behavior was for not and "at home" being responsible was in all actuality "the way to go" in the first place.
One question would be, if we did not stand, would the MLCer become a better more complete, adjusted person? If we did not hand them back all that they lost, kids included, Would they be in a "higher place". food for thought.
I still feel "this type" of MLC should be approached as a "disease" and therefore with our understanding and help, We, because we stood are/will be the ones to bring them up from rock bottom, not the crisis.
-
I'm really not trying to be a wise-*ss here and honestly, I applaud all of you who delve into this heavy stuff but can someone explain to me why MLC's are almost non-existent in other cultures?
I was a psych major and I have to say, I never bought into the self actualization stuff. No offense to those who do but I just don't.
I've seen lots of websites written mostly by men (though I'm sure there are female ones out there too) and there is tons of talk about their needs and their growth and becoming who they want to be and so on and so forth. Funny how these websites rarely have writings from men who have stuck with or gone back to their families.
I'm really sorry but I see this as more drivel as justification for narcissistic, immature behavior. And even though I agree that depression is at the root of this, when little kids have temper tantrums, it's understandable yes but they are taught that it is not acceptable and so is the case with acting cruelly and selfishly while in depression.
Excile, frankly, I think it's tough enough that your wife is going off on her quest but accusing you of things because you appreciate the simple things is just more MLC spew. And pretty arrogant at that. Correct me if I'm wrong but I can think of a few people who appreciated simplicity in life...Mother Theresa, Ghandi, Jesus Christ....there's nothing wrong with simplicity and it sounds like YOU are the one who is self actualized...not her!
-
I have just read through this interesting thread and although I did not see the video, I think I 'get' what is being discussed here. I think that MLC is when the natural 'individuation'/actualization is complicated by FOO issues or faulty previous transitions (especially adolescence/young adulthood). One thing that has struck me is what Bon Bon says
why MLC's are almost non-existent in other cultures?
As I live in another 'culture' and I find that very little support is given here to MLC. The therapist I consulted pooh-poohed the idea from the start, most of my friends look at me as if I am imagining things, his relatives really don't get it, mine do, but then, maybe that is because of the cultural difference?
The individuation/actualization idea is easier to sell and there is quite a lot of support for the idea. Even his psychiatrist suggested as much when she spoke of maturation (he has given her up by the way ::)).
This is why I think that this is a 'crisis' that has roots in the four aspects of 'self' - spiritual, mental, physical and social. For some reason, the MLCer loses sight of self and becomes lost in a fog/tunnel needing to 'discover' these aspects again.
What I do know, is that whatever it is, I want it over!!
-
Im gonna go off track just a bit here...I believe my Dad was going through MLC for a long period.
but kept his PA secret until my parents D back in 2000. Now that he is with his New wife ( the OW )
He treats her with love and kindness...does a Huge amount of things for her...he is p*ssy whipped
if you ask me..and the OW my "wicked step mother" who I call "The wicked" ;D
She is a control freak...treats my dad like sh*t. demands him to do this or that and treats his kids (us) like
garbage...I guess the point I am getting at...is MY mom didnt reap the benefits of his MLC, the other woman
did.
He says that he wanted to become a better person because he was so horrible to my mom. He did make
alot of changes for the better in himself..but My Mom is the one that left him..so I dont think he would
have ever left...just kept the PA going until God knows when. It was a 10 yr PA.
SO somewhere in there his MLC struck. We seen it..just not him.
-
realized...I may have just posted that in the wrong thread....hehehe sorry!
-
By being absent from most cultures, what do you mean? I have been on this site and seen many marriages including my own that are mixed race/culture and still the spouse suffers from the same affliction. My concern is that while our culture focuses on MLC- it is really a very small percentage that actually go through this "crisis". Therefore, it is not an issue in many other cultures.
An example of this is our country's fixation with ADHD/ADD and the number of children overdiagnosed with the condition as compared to other cultures. Also, many other cultures are not as fixated on youth and expression of one's individualty as the western culture is and this tends to lead to self-analysis of one's self and the pusuit of "happiness".
I want to weigh in on this "self-actualization" process. I hate to say that none of this has anything to do with marriage or relationships in the sense of "I need a new person to have sex with". Self actualization is taking your existing relationship to the next level where a deeper understanding of self and your interactions with your loved ones becomes much more meaningful. It is a process of accepting yourself and that inner peace (not happiness) comes from within. It is not about materials, career, or new relationships.
Happiness is a feeling. It is not something we can tap into and have pour into our veins at will. If that is the case, why not pursue other emotions and feelings. Why not seek permanent anger?
If self actualization is your w's goal, then why is she still focused on meeting life's basic needs "food, shelter.." and emotional needs...."love...friendship... which are at the lower end of the basic needs pyramid? In other words, she is actually moving away from self-actualization then she is moving towards such a process.
Another observation is that as we move towards "self-actualization" and discovering one's true self and purpose in life, why is your wife angry with you? If she were moving forward in self-discovery, why anger towards someone who no longer should have any meaning to her?
If you read your wife's responses, they are not about acceptance or understanding of self. Instead, it is about avoiding self and dealing with one's internal demons that haunt our souls. If she were actually moving towards actualization, she would take a step towards learning more about you, your motivations and what you feel about the relationship so that she can completely accept you into her world. She would understand your position in her life with the same balance and precision that the moon orbits our own planet.
What amazes me is how we try to apply a noble cause "self-actualization" towards a new mindset that is really a focus on narcissitic feelings and hedonisitic actions. Which in my book is trying to put lipstick on the proverbial pig.
Just my two cents.
-
I totally agree Ready. I'm sure the reason why this now seems to be more prevalent in Western cultures is that we are much more youth orientated (or is it oriented) that we used to be. Some years ago, age and experience was much more respected than it is now. Today's world can make you feel that you are almost on the scrap-heap by the age of forty!
I honestly don't know what in my ex-partner's past has caused this. I'm not aware of any particular problems in his youth - or at least, not anything that he told me about. I do know that he hated big occasions - family or otherwise - but no-one but me would have any idea that he was not enjoying himself. Perhaps there is unfinished business with the OW. I think he had an affair with her when she was on her first marriage thirty years ago but I don't know. As far as I can see it all seems to be narcissistic with no feeling for anyone else but himself (or possibly the wonderful OW).... At the moment there is certainly no soul-searching at all.
-
Ready,
I think I'm the one who first brought up other cultures and I did so because from what I've read from a few different sources, is that MLC is almost unheard of in the East, as opposed to the West. I don't have stats on that but I have read it in a few places and as Chrysalis said, this is probably due to our youth obsessed culture, not to mention money and so on.
So what I mean is I don't believe that those in the East are any less "enlightened" than those who live in the West so I'm sure if there is self actualization being done, it would be done there too. And yet, they have little reporting of MLC. Does that make sense?
My actual point is that I agree with what you said as quoted below:
"What amazes me is how we try to apply a noble cause "self-actualization" towards a new mindset that is really a focus on narcissitic feelings and hedonisitic actions. Which in my book is trying to put lipstick on the proverbial pig."
Well said. I agree.
-
So much great stuff has been posted in response to this topic. I want to thank each of you. Each post has given me something to think about.
It's a fascinating topic and one that can be looked at in numerous ways. I've studied Jung (Hollis is a strict Jungian analyst) just a bit and, while I find myself attracted to much of what Jung believed, I do also sometimes think "This guy's full of it"!
The question of the "price" to be paid for finding oneself, self-actualization, individuation, becoming your authentic Self, whatever you want to call it, is going to be high in all cases, whether a full-blown MLC is involved or not. Trying to live a conscious, examined life requires time, (the great gift our MLCers give us LBSers!) effort, (reading, journaling, meditating, all the many ways of GALing, etc.) faith, persistence and, maybe most of all, patience. We LBSers are on this quest of individuation, though we may not view it that way. I certainly didn't in the very earliest days after BD but now I can begin to discern that "becoming conscious" is my work.
Anyway, I've loved this topic and thanks so much to everyone who added their thoughts.
TMHP
M 58
H 60
D 22
M 38 yrs
BD Jan., '11
H living with OW
-
Yes, but the eastern cultures, especially Vietnam, allows for "men" to have fun as part of their normal lifestyle. Hence the "massage parlors" with happy endings, the free flowing alcohol, chain smoking, and gambling are "normal" pursuits of the male regardless of age. While the wives are expected to "accept" this "lifestyle".
My wife is from Vietnam and she is giving the same MLC script that BNW and several others have heard. She too has stated, "I want to be bad...I've always been good." She has made the, "I want to be happy too!"
Just more MLC script to follow.
-
Exactly Ready, It's what each culture is "allowed/brought up" to do that probably brings percentages of MLC up/down. The free'r the society, the free'r the mind to wander, my guess. I'm sure lots of "people" hate "their" lives/marriages in other cultures but the consequences are to risky where as some cultures like our own you free to destroy! Lol.
-
I started to write a response, but as I was writing I realized I had a lot to say and that some of what I had to say I had already written—and it was just sitting there in my notes waiting for me to say more. So I have posted it on the blog. And now I’ll make just a few specific responses here.
Would you guys just stop talking about such interesting topics! ;D I've been sitting at the computer for several hours listening to Hollis, transcribing, writing, then reading this thread to catch up, then writing, then catching up some more... And I've got to go do some other work. Sweetheart is gone until tomorrow--motorcycle camping and with him gone I should be able to get some more housework done--like organizing my office.
But I did just send my blog post out. It’s in two parts. Tomorrow’s part will go over the Hollis video. And I still have to code it.
http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/self-focus/the-middle-passage-embracing-versus-avoiding-part-1
Let me first say I am giving this response without having watched the youtube link you posted.....so take that into consideration.
My issue with what was summarized is this. If the soul is in conflict with one's life (whatever that actually means), and the MLCer needs to change what they have been enduring, that leaves me with this question. Why would they end up having regrets?
I mean if you align one's soul with one's life, why would the MLCer later regret their behavior? And regretting their MLC behavior is common.
Because an MLCer is not aligning their soul with their life. They are running away from the very alignment. It is the difference between a midlife transition and a midlife transition that is at crisis levels.
So confused about the Hollis stuff for the follo
wing reasons:
If this MLC was a search for deeper meaning in life, somehow then I would have thought that the search would be a bit more to the right on the moral compass, you know, less lying and deception than during his previous unhappy life with me. But no, it appears that the search for true meaning in one's life begins with massive lies, betrayal and deception of the largest type…
Secondly why, if they are on a search for themselves, do none of them exhibit charitable traits, you know, where they sacrifice for others, isn't that what the higher meaning of life is all about? Seems that their search is to reach the highest plateau of narcissism.[/quote]
Dr. Hollis talks about The Middle Passage which we call Midlife Transition. A Midlife Crisis is a type of Midlife Transition. Dr. Hollis is not referring specifically to those transitions which reach crisis levels. Midlife Transition is a search for deeper meaning; midlife crisis is rooted in fears. MLCers escape and avoid because they do not want to face those fears; and MLC is an avoidance of the Midlife Transition.
Am I off base, or is a lot of this psychological terminology a fancy way of discussing the maturation process?
No, you aren’t off base in the least. You should be an editor. You could distill millions of words of psycho mumbo jumbo into a sentence or two!
I'm really not trying to be a wise-*ss here and honestly, I applaud all of you who delve into this heavy stuff but can someone explain to me why MLC's are almost non-existent in other cultures?
Because we have given up or sanitized our rituals. We no longer give sacred honor to rites of passage.
-
Have just watched the link fully and I do agree with much of what Dr Hollis is saying. You wil notice that he does make a firm distinction between the process of individuation and that of narcissism, stating that individuation is the almost the antithesis of narcissism.
What I took from this, is that the process of individuation, if traversed with self reflection may result in some well-considered and sometimes huge changes in ones life. However, having an affair is an indication that individuation is not occurring - it is being run from because the individual is still seeking to discover their identity through their ego's reflection in an-other.
MLC as RCR said, is transition (mid life individuation) gone haywire where the transition is avoided because of the discomfort of what it might necessitate in terms of addressing oneself, and thus the transition becomes a narcissistic adventure into avoidance (crisis), if that makes any sense...
-
She tells me that I need to find my own path because I am the one who is lost.
Lost in what?
But now she would rather have a more like-minded companion for her journey.
Self discovery doesn't require a companion.
I've read many articles which explain midlife reassessment as a soul's attempt to align one's life with his true nature/gift so he can thrive as someone he is meant to become. Drastic changes are inevitable and some aspects of the old life will be discarded for the new birth.
The aspects of the old life that are discarded in MLC are honesty, empathy and faithfulness.
If MLC were in some way self-actualization (whatever that means) and if self-actualization were healthy it would not manifest itself in lies, deception, anger, adultery and psychological damage to the children.
MLC is a manifestation of emotional ill health. MLC is for selfish-actualization.
There are philosophies and religions that advocate rebirth or enlightenment but a core component of these "ways" is benevolence and love. Respect for oneself and respect for others. There isn't a lot of respect going on in MLC. It is a disordered mind that rationalizes that self-discovery goes hand in hand with adultery.
I can just imagine a child from a MLC household saying, "I am so pleased for my MLC parent, they discovered the true them, they are now at peace and at one with life. They are self-actualized and the world will now be a better place. It is just a shame I have been left with anxiety, depression, low self-esteem and abandonment neurosis due to the trauma of all that happened between my parents.
honour
-
Thanks for your participation in this discussion, guys. I've learned a lot from your posts.
Hollis appears to have had MLC or transition. He walked away from a secure job and marriage and later found a new career and a new wife. He seems to be in much better place now as a result of his MLC. We know about him because he became a profound, influential, successful psychologist. I assume he lives his life in harmony with his soul. What we don't know is the story of his first wife and their children. Did they all find authentic life for themselves? Are their lives traumatized or compromised in any way as a result of Hollis’ MLC? If they are, should Hollis be held responsible? Or, since no matter what life throws at you, ultimately you are responsible for your own life, is it their own responsibility to find acceptance and peace despite whatever hardship they had to endure? Anybody would agree that reneging on promises or commitment is wrong. But can/should we judge MLCers’ actions from the moral standpoint per se? What other context available for us to assess this confounding phenomenon?
-
Exiled, My father is a clinical psychologist, he has helped me through my ex's MLC although he tells me that psychologists do not recognize it as a MLC and "only" see it as a product of the their environment for the most part must have been bad in some sort. I also asked my therapist if she recognized it as a MLC and she to confirmed they don't "view" it or call it that and she to believes "cognitive therapy" is the way to go as that pulls the "buried" stuff to the conscience and then can be dealt with by the MLCer.
I am not surprised Dr. Hollis also doesn't see it as a crisis yet calls it a transition as to not be held "responsible" for the damage it probably caused in his family. Just my opinion.
My father also had a MLC years back and had a 10 month affair with a much younger woman and I could now tell he was in "denial" to thinking it was a MLC and blamed it on the way my mother treated him. Hmmmmmm. He chose to blame it on my mothers background and her treating him badly and "driving" him to another woman. My fathers parents had died and 2 brothers of his both at the age of 59 with in a 5 yr span, Hmmmmm.
Sound like a MLC anyone?
-
I can just imagine a child from a MLC household saying, "I am so pleased for my MLC parent, they discovered the true them, they are now at peace and at one with life. They are self-actualized and the world will now be a better place. It is just a shame I have been left with anxiety, depression, low self-esteem and abandonment neurosis due to the trauma of all that happened between my parents.
honour
I love that, I said something similar to that in another thread--but you said it so much better. I am so sad that my ex must never thought of what his kids will have to say about "us" in 10 or 20 years. Will they ever be proud of him?
-
Honour, My father "realized" his mistake shortly after the "affair" and apologized to the "family". I can say it has been forgotten by us siblings and he is well received in the family as time healed that wound. My parents never divorced but i can tell my mother hasn't forgotten and continues to badger him about anything and everything! Lol and she is 73! lol.
Us kids are pretty healthy ( all 11 or us! lol) about it but all bets would be off if he left us at that time.
-
I'm just wondering if the 'New Age' search for self, is more common in women?
My mother had what we all consider a MLC at the age of 47. Left our wonderful, kind, patient father. Blamed him for everything under the sun. As she really had nothing much to complain about, it mostly concentrated on how different they were. She was, and still is to this day searching for something that I doubt she'll ever find on this planet.
She immediately had an affair with a married man which lasted only a few weeks, then was with another divorced man for around four years, and has been on her own ever since. She still complains bitterly about how difficult my father was to live with - we don't buy it.
She denies any sort of MLC to this day, and is only getting over 20 years of extreme selfishness (to some extent) now.
When she becomes up in arms about my H's OW, I have reminded her that wasn't she the OW once? She changes the subject.
Jim Conway writes in his book on MLC - Years ago the NEW YORK TIMES ran an anonymous but pointed letter which read in part 'I was forty years old and my husband forty-six when the eccentric behaviour began. An otherwise reasonable and family loving man suffered, not depression as we understood it, but rage, fatigue, incommunicability, suspicion, hostility. But every incident was my fault supposedly. I was the woman and I was alleged to be in the change of life. Unfortunately, doctors, psychiatrists, men in general, have kept it all under the rug where they have swept it themselves. They are in terror of the truth of acknowledging a condition which affects their behaviour beyond their control, but which they readily ascribe to women without mercy'.
With more doctors, psychologists and psychiatrists now being women, what is the excuse now? When this crisis hit our family, I struggled to understand it and it was hard to find much information. Why is that? Why does our society not inform it's members of this great tragedy? We are all left struggling to cope on our own. Where is the community of elders who can come in and advise and guide us all, including the MLCer in denial?
I believe in other cultures, this support often does happen? It would be termed a spiritual crisis, and I guess it is widely known about and accepted. Therefore I guess the help given to the person in crisis is more likely to be accepted.
What about Kundalini? Does anyone know much about that? I have read a little, and my understanding is that once the energy begins to rise, the person experiencing it can feel as if they are going crazy. If you are from the East, would you understand what was happening to you, and be more likely to get help or 'go with it'? Without this knowledge or support in the West, is this where the denial comes in? "Nothing wrong with me' etc. They're terrified at what they're experiencing, and unwilling to admit it.
How do we get MLC out from underneath the carpet?
-
kikki, unfortunately the MLCer "feels normal" and justified in their behavior and therefore you or anyone cannot tell or explain to them otherwise. They surround themselves with people who support them that their decision is correct and the LBS must be an ahole no matter how good a spouse they are like your dad. Blood is thicker than water so family members on their side will not upset the apple cart and if they do the MLCer crosses them off their list and stops communicating with them coupled with they probably have the same problems coming from the same environment coupled with the fact that divorce is becoming an accepted norm in society's mind.
The MLCer will refuse to seek help from any professional or book period. There is absolutely nothing you can do until the MLCer wants help. They will even refuse the works or books or articles or movies from fellow MLCer whose write about their journey's. From what I have learned you cannot make a MLCer see anything no matter how much knowledge is out there as it is their feelings that they work off of and you cannot make them feel they love you or their "old" life period. It is an awful journey that they must ride out. Sad but true reality....
-
Rookie, you're so right.
I'm guess I'm thinking some global societal shift needs to occur, for any of this to change.
Goodness knows how that would happen of course!
-
So much good stuff, though some of it goes over my poor little engineer head ???
In my W's case I suppose I thought that her becoming a mother and wife was what she really wanted in life; that this was her true self and that the 'party girl' who flitted from boyfriend to boyfriend in her teens, the head-in-the-clouds dreamer, was the person she left behind. From what she's said - she wants to be free, to be herself, so party, etc - maybe I've got it backwards and that really is her true self and the wife/mother is a mask she wore/donned for her families sake, i.e. this is what I'm expected to do? :-\ ???
One of the things the Relate counsellor who did our assessment picked up on straight away was her 'thing' about expectations and living up to some sort of ideal. Her eldest sister never did the wife and mother thing at all or very well (two failed marriages and no kids), so maybe she felt she had to do this well - provide the perfect nuclear family and the grandchildren for her parents to see and say great, well done. Hmm.... ???
-
Hollis says he's happy now but how does he know he wouldn't have been happy had he stayed with his wife? That's an unknown variable. From my understanding, there are plenty of examples of MLCers who thought the last thing they wanted was to continue their life with their spouse and/or children yet they did, or, they returned, and, have never been happier. How many MLCers who don't return won't admit they made a mistake? Lots I bet.
As for the destruction and hurt people they leave behind, if someone can do that and then feel mighty fine about themselves, that tells me quite a bit about that person.
-
I am late to this party but I finally got a chance to watch this video!
Excellent, I agree with RCR.
I think the part that is lost here is that the MLC'er is one person before the crisis, another one during the crisis, and a new person after the crisis.
There is no way for us as LBS'ers to look at the person within the crisis and know what
their new persona is going to be.
The crisis occurs because they are fighting the fact that they need to become a "NEW" person.
But until that new person is born we will not know who our spouse are.
I do not believe we should judge out spouses while they are in the tunnel.
I would agree that none of us are going to like that person, but I think to judge them at this time is premature.
-
OP,
I'm quoting you here:
"I do not believe we should judge out spouses while they are in the tunnel.
I would agree that none of us are going to like that person, but I think to judge them at this time is premature."
I do agree. Completely. And yet, I have. Consistently. As I've written many times, I do not find empathy nor compassion at all and I do indeed judge. I am embarrassed to admit that because I do indeed love the man I married and because I consider myself to have a healthy amount of both empathy and compassion and not only when it is convenient or easy. I've made life decisions and changes based on my empathy and compassion.
And yet, I have so little for the one person I should have it for, the person I have loved more than any other and the person for whom I've always had compassion for prior to MLC. All I can figure out is that when I am the wounded party (for lack of a more descriptive term), I can not seem to find that empathy nor compassion. Forgiveness? Yes, mostly...maybe all the way some day. But the other things? No. Does that mean I am not self actualized? I have no idea.
Did not mean to make this about me. I was just responding to the judgement aspect since we're going deep into psyches here.
-
Good post BonBon and I will add a little to your feelings on that. The humiliation and embarrassment and the total destruction of all our goals for the past X amount of years is not taken into any consideration. Judge away! lol as you were and are HALF and it cannot be all about them! No matter what they are experiencing as they have mortgaged your half also!
I know, we have the "chance" to start over too BUT....... lol
-
I'm just wondering if the 'New Age' search for self, is more common in women?
I wonder about the effect of the New Age to a person full of existential angst at the middle age.
"You can achieve anything when you release your inner strength!”
"You can unlock the secret of the Universe through channeling!”
We often see this kind of quotes in Self-help or New Age sections in a bookstore.
The message screams that anything is within your reach as long as you don't set limits on yourself. I suppose many can be inspired from these messages. It is true that complete conviction and immersion is often required in order to become successful at anything. But higher expectations can lead to bigger frustrations too. One could find everyday normal existence stifling and mundane when she feels that the time for making something out of her life is running out. While even unlocking the secret of the Universe seems possible if you go for it, if your spouse is wasting his precious time and mind on the weeds in the yard or the sales at the store, it could be disheartening and disappointing. What a drag! She would rather go with someone who says Yes!” to all the exciting possibilities. Living open-minded as taking things with a grain of salt is a hard balance to achieve for anybody but especially for those who are a little desperate.
-
I wonder about the effect of the New Age to a person full of existential angst at the middle age.
"You can achieve anything when you release your inner strength!”
"You can unlock the secret of the Universe through channeling!”
My W had her career. In recent years she was doing really well, she was working abroad a lot. I would tell her how good she was, that she was an international superstar and that she should be running the company, "you can do it!" Yep, you guessed it...she decided to have an adulterous relationship with one of her foriegn colleagues and now lives with him. I haven't seen or spoken to her since Dec 2010. Was it something I said?!
honour
-
I think you are all taking it too personally, if they had a broken arm prior to BD would you feel differently?
They are sick, depressed, hurting human beings.
I am not saying that we should be doormats and let them walk all over us,
however my point is that until they emerge from the tunnel
judging them is like judging a two year old that is having a temper tantrum.
You do not like the behavior but you know that something is wrong.
-
These self - help books we speak of are very inspirational. Bottom line is unless your Bill Gates or somebody with all the time in the world it becomes mostly fantasy. Even when a wayward spouse finds a "yes" partner and seems to be compatible, Usually reality and responsibility sets in and the "cash" runs out.
Iv'e seen a couple of cousins go through these exact same scenario's with the tapes and the books only to find them selves in a deeper hole all the way around not just monetary.
Life's morals, rules, responsibilities and what ever else is already set for us. Not that we can't strive to be more wholesome with exercise, hobbies, education and such, but ultimately people who try to give them selves a full make over of what somebody else is usually fails in more area's than one.
I'm not saying Dr. Hollis or anyone else for that matter is brain washing but it does exist. Just look at our society and make up for one, commercials for another, always wanting everybody to be something they are not or somebody else. Hmmmmmmmm.
Sorry, may have strayed off the path here.
-
Op, I really don't think anybody is taking it to personal. This is real life and real feelings and real destruction and real etc, etc. And Yes, I did discipline my two year olds in some ways. I taught them correct behavior. It isn't about being a doormat although some are. You feel the same way and you managed to hold it better.
Yes it is a disease for the MLCer, but it affects SO much and human nature in us takes over at times.
This site is great at leaving the rant/vent/opinion at the door. We are "good boys" and "good girls" who were probably assigned to watch these "lost souls" from God. But unfortunately we too must go through the "sick/depressed stage also. I think most of us are here because we give the MLCer the benefit of the doubt, don't you?
I really and honestly don't think that Dr. Hollis meant this in his book/video when he mentions "self-actualization" and if he did, Well.........
-
Op, I really don't think anybody is taking it to personal. This is real life and real feelings and real destruction and real etc, etc. And Yes, I did discipline my two year olds in some ways. I taught them correct behavior. It isn't about being a doormat although some are. You feel the same way and you managed to hold it better.
Yes it is a disease for the MLCer, but it affects SO much and human nature in us takes over at times.
This site is great at leaving the rant/vent/opinion at the door. We are "good boys" and "good girls" who were probably assigned to watch these "lost souls" from God. But unfortunately we too must go through the "sick/depressed stage also. I think most of us are here because we give the MLCer the benefit of the doubt, don't you?
I really and honestly don't think that Dr. Hollis meant this in his book/video when he mentions "self-actualization" and if he did, Well.........
Rookie I absolutely agree with you.
We MUST go through all the stages of grief, I have been their and done that, twice now.
And maybe I will do it again, it is perfectly normal, no avoiding it.
I think part of the key is seeing it and accepting it.
-
Exiled said:
"One could find everyday normal existence stifling and mundane when she feels that the time for making something out of her life is running out."
You have hit the nail on the head. In fact, I think you are quoting my H without even realizeing it! LOL. Not funny really but honestly, this is basically one of his tenants while deep in the whole.
OP, I personally (as most of us have probably) taken it very personally. I have told myself time and again that this is a disease of some sort and that I should not...and yet...this is where my work must be done. I guess the difference between an MLC and a non-MLC depression is just that...the personal side of it. Had our spouses not taken it out on us in whatever fashion, it would be far easier.
I have had little problem wrapping my head around the MLC but my heart? No, it's still fighting what my head knows is true and that it is not about me. Very difficult.
-
And I am the poster girl for going through the stages of grief again, and again and.......
Now way out but through.
-
I tend to agree with BonBon here. It's incredibly difficult not to take the attacks, snide remarks, general distrust and/or ambivalence from the MLCer personally. I know I have. It was all very hurtful. She told me I was taking things she said too personally and it was her not me, but it's hard to take. When I said to her that all this has caused a lot of self-analysis and soul searching she said, "I didn't ask you to do that". Why wouldn't I do that if I didn't care ???
And yes, I have judged my W for how she is now, I can't help myself. There isn't a day in the past six months or so that I haven't thought about what has and is happening to us. Sometimes I feel angry and hate comes to the surface, sometimes I just feel deflated and low. It's getting easier and the mood swings less severe, but you can't shut it off, or at least I can't.
Not sure about the New Age influences because I know nothing about that errr, philosophy, but this idea that you can achieve anything and personal fulfillment through spirituality and reaching out for the true self, seems to be a set-up for failure and disappointment: "...higher expectations can lead to bigger frustrations too".
There was a scene in a recent episode of the UK drama 'Silent Witness', where the female pathologist was struggling with a case and was sent to a psychiatrist. Without quoting all the dialogue, the gist of the exchange was that the optimistic, glass-half-full type of person, has an idealistic view of how the world/universe works and when things go wrong or things happen that they can't control they become disappointed and frustrated and suffer accordingly. My W is definitely like this and so, it seems to me, all of the sh*t that has happened in her 40s have come to a head leading to MLC.
-
I tend to agree with BonBon here. It's incredibly difficult not to take the attacks, snide remarks, general distrust and/or ambivalence from the MLCer personally. I know I have. It was all very hurtful. She told me I was taking things she said too personally and it was her not me, but it's hard to take. When I said to her that all this has caused a lot of self-analysis and soul searching she said, "I didn't ask you to do that". Why wouldn't I do that if I didn't care ???
This is a truth: we shouldn't take anything anyone says personally. Everyone filters life through their thoughts, feelings and emotions. Every head is a world. What our spouse's MLC teaches us is that peace comes from within. To rely on others to bring us happiness is a risky business.
Someone once said "it is better to give than to receive." We gave, now they no longer want to receive. But we want them to keep giving to us because it makes us feel good. We mustn't take it personally. Not easy to do though.
honour
-
There was a scene in a recent episode of the UK drama 'Silent Witness', where the female pathologist was struggling with a case and was sent to a psychiatrist. Without quoting all the dialogue, the gist of the exchange was that the optimistic, glass-half-full type of person, has an idealistic view of how the world/universe works and when things go wrong or things happen that they can't control they become disappointed and frustrated and suffer accordingly. My W is definitely like this and so, it seems to me, all of the sh*t that has happened in her 40s have come to a head leading to MLC.
In my W's case I don't think it is a case of being a glass half full type person, but more perhaps having a childlike view of the world. The idealistic view of life you mention is how a child would see life. There is a part of her that never grew up, trapped at about seven years old I suspect. All of a sudden, at mid-life when friends and relatives pass away there is a sudden realization of the reality of life and death. And if you are like a child inside, it must be terrifying. A line W has used since MLC is, "life is too short". She will use it when trying to communicate with the children: "life is too short for us to not be talking", she has said.
In fact she recently said to my son, when they met for the first time in seven months,"now that you and your sister have grown up I feel it is time for me to grow up". Son said, "you grew up with Dad, and now you are living with OM, how is that growing up?". She couldn't answer him.
honour
-
This is a truth: we shouldn't take anything anyone says personally
Honour, that is a normative statement that I think is a wonderful goal, but no matter how lofty our goals are, we have to take basic human psychology into account. If you go too far and say "I don't care what anyone says about me" then you exclude yourself from the ability to empathise. Our emotions are linked to the things that happen to us, to the things that people say and do. We should endeavour not to be ruled exclusively by these things, that would make us slaves to the external world and would negate our internal world and our own sense of who we are. Our ability to be hurt by others does have its uses, if we can put it in its proper place, feel the hurt and then let it go - it links us to the commonality of human suffering and can give us empathy.
We should try not to rely on other people to provide us with happiness, true. But we must accept as social animals that our interactions with other human beings have the ability to affect our happiness. And the way that we behave and "give" can similarly affect others. That is why at the root of many religions and philosophies is the golden rule: treat others as we wish to be treated ourselves. Because we do not exist in autonomous capsules where we are fully in charge of our every feeling. That is something we must work on, yeah, but it is not likely that very many people can achieve a place where they can truly say that other people have NO affect on their happiness.
Also, I think it is important in these discussions to be honest with ourselves. I gave to my husband, but sometimes I resented it - is that really giving? Did I want to give because if I didn't why did I? And if I did why the resentment. Was I giving more and more because I sensed his retreat? Is that a valid reason to give?
Did I always appreciate what I was given? Granted as MLC took over, I wasn't the receiver, but even before, did I sometimes take H for granted? Undoubtedly.
-
In my W's case I don't think it is a case of being a glass half full type person, but more perhaps having a childlike view of the world. The idealistic view of life you mention is how a child would see life. There is a part of her that never grew up, trapped at about seven years old I suspect. All of a sudden, at mid-life when friends and relatives pass away there is a sudden realization of the reality of life and death. And if you are like a child inside, it must be terrifying. A line W has used since MLC is, "life is too short". She will use it when trying to communicate with the children: "life is too short for us to not be talking", she has said.
Yes there could be some validity in the child-like thing. I have thought at times, though she denies it of course, that she wants to turn the clock back to, not childhood perhaps, but her teenage years. I've heard the "life is too short" line, or a variant of it, too. ::)
-
Honour, that is a normative statement that I think is a wonderful goal, but no matter how lofty our goals are, we have to take basic human psychology into account. If you go too far and say "I don't care what anyone says about me" then you exclude yourself from the ability to empathise.
Not taking anything personally does not require absence of empathy but it does require absence of personal wounds. We can only be hurt by others if we have wounds.
I was walking in the street here a few weeks back. A couple of guys came past and one called me a name, he was insulting me. I didn't know who they were, they didn't know me. I could have taken it personally and given him a black eye but I didn't. I had empathy: for him to feel the need to randomly insult a stranger there was clearly something going on in that guy's emotions and thinking that was not healthy . It was about him not me.
Our goal is to become so secure that we don't take anything personally but we do empathise. When we are truly healed of our wounds we can truly love, agape. We can give without needing to receive. Since my W's MLC I have had to examine my own childhood, my own wounds. I am working on myself. My childhood was not a happy one. To get the strength to cope with my W's departure I am forced to strengthen myself. I can see that my self-esteem was bolstered by my W. She was a beautiful woman and it was an ego boost for me to be married to a beautiful woman and to be the envy of other men. If I was totally secure I would not have needed that ego boost. If I was totally secure the apparent rejection of me by W would not have hurt so much.
Lofty? Perhaps. Noble? Yes. Possible? I would like to think so. It’s the path we are on.
Many times I have said to my W "you do bring me enormous joy [insert W's name]". Sounds cheesy I know, but I did say those things, she was fabulous to be around. Now she doesn't want to give me that Joy. I mustn't take it personally. It is a dreadful loss, who wants to give up the good times? but I mustn't take it personally. It doesn't mean I don't love or care for her wellbeing, I do, very much, there just seems nothing I can do about it.
honour
-
First of all may I say, honour, that you have an excellent take on this. Well done; I can see that it serves you well.
But back to the child-like thing, or the glass-half-full thing. We're often told that we need to be glass-half-full people; I found it interesting the thought that glass-half-full people see the world idealisticallly, hence become more disappointed when things go wrong.
Of course my own perspective -- because one of the things I was told was that I wasn't that optimistic person, and that H wanted to be. I've often thought that because he never had anything go badly wrong in life that he fell harder when this hit. He even once mentioned that himself, in one of those moments of clarity. But he has blasted me for saying that life was a series of difficulties to be navigated, or something to that effect. He wanted to live only the light bits.
In a recent moment of clarity (quickly quashed by H himself) he did say that it was easier to just go away rather than to deal with certain things that we have had happen in life. Again, to a life he can control, where it is all just good and light-hearted.
Regarding the new age thing; well, certain new age philosophies played a role in my sitch, also at the time convincing H that he needed to go. But it is much more avoidance, and looking for something to fill the void, rather than what I could call self-actualisation. And empathy for anyone else doesn't even get a look in.
-
Not taking anything personally does not require absence of empathy but it does require absence of personal wounds. We can only be hurt by others if we have wounds.
Our goal is to become so secure that we don't take anything personally but we do empathise. When we are truly healed of our wounds we can truly love, agape. We can give without needing to receive. honour
I respectfully disagree. We are human, if we love, we will be hurt, and we have to be hurt. To say that if we are so secure that our spouses leaving would cause no hurt and we could just pick up and keep living without negative emotion is not realistic, is it? How could you not be hurt by total and utter rejection of everything you worked for?
And to give without NEVER needing to receive is noble, but impossible. You need some kind of appreciation or you can't possibly go on giving--you'd have nothing left to give. If you went to the hood and started helping all the gang members, but they kept beating you up, who would support you to keep on giving? At the very least, you'd need friends to dress your wounds and tell you you're doing a good job, or you'd be physically, emotionally and financially bankrupt.
We can be whole, healthy human beings and still get hurt. Recognizing our shame triggers helps to alleviate the ego hurt, but withdrawal of love is the foundation of our humanity and it should always cause hurt--not debilitating self pity, anger, resentment or other things that only serve to beat down the psyche, but pain is human and totally necessary.
-
I agree with LL - I too would hope that name-calling by strangers in the street would not cause me personal hurt and pain and that I would feel sadness or empathy for the name-caller, because clearly they require enacting that sort of behaviour to bolster enormous insecurity.
But in emotionally bonded relationships we do care - we should not derive our self-worth from the other, but it would be strange to not hurt when someone rejects you after you have spent years trusting and loving them. Grief is a normal human emotion and it entails stages such as anger, sadness, bargaining etc. all related to the "hurt" that the abandonment caused. What would be wrong would be to live in those stages forever without ever finding peace. But having those feelings is normal. Feeling hurt is normal and hurt is about feeling loss (whatever the loss) as a very personal thing. Failing to let oneself "feel" them, failing to give oneself permission to "feel" them, is more likely to be detrimental than acknowledging them and living through them. It is different from the MLCer seeking to blame and run - although I am wonder if there is a place for blame as a natural stage in grieving (it is just not a place we should get stuck) , what I am talking about is acknowledging that another person hurt me, temporarily damaged my happiness, but deciding to explore it and see if it is something that will ultimately destroy me or give me a better understanding of myself and engender some personal growth.
The day I stop allowing for the possibility that someone could hurt me, is the day I stop being open to vulnerability.
I do agree that we should not derive our happiness through another, but I maintain that we do have the power to affect one another's happiness in social relationships.
-
. I had empathy: for him to feel the need to randomly insult a stranger there was clearly something going on in that guy's emotions and thinking that was not healthy . It was about him not me.
And that is why empathy and personal hurt are linked. You can imagine someone's pain, the sort of pain that might make them act out, because you have experienced and felt pain and hurt in your own life and know that it manifests itself in different ways if it is never addressed.
OK, off my soapbox not ;D
-
RCR today posted a blog about Dr. Hollis
http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/
If it is a transition they are embracing, ask yourself why they feel you cannot be a part of that transition.
Ask yourself what do they see that is resistant in you to make them feel the path forward must be without you?
And what can you do about that?
What can you do to embrace your journey?
It is not your job to change your spouse’s mind. But it is your job to embrace your journey and live your life to its fullest potential.
Your MLCers are letting their fears control them. Are you doing the same? That’s what your mirror work is about; facing your fears so that you can blossom into your full Self.
Great Blog RCR
I particularly liked the two quotes above and I wish I had the answer to my own mirror work.
But it helps me to try to figure out where to look on the mirror.
-
It is a good blog. A lot of psychology is more like psychobabble to me.....but I like the title RCR gave to the blog. When it's Embracing vs Avoiding, I can understand that.
I guess I would prefer a term like "mature" instead of "self actualize". No matter which term you use though, I believe if you do it at the expense or abandonment of others, you have virtually guaranteed yourself upcoming regrets.