Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Buggy31 on June 26, 2010, 06:19:57 PM
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What are others thoughts on antideppresants during MLC? Particularly during the Depression stage. Why is MLC so similiar to someone suffering from a mental illness? How do you know it's not a mental illness making itself known?
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My thoughts are that most MLC'ers will not take AD's. It would be wonderful if they did but they ususally will not take them.
I believe Lost1234 H is on AD's and it has helped him navigate thru his crisis. Maybe a little bit faster than normal, but he is still not home yet!
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Personally, I think my H could definitely benefit from AD's. He has some major childhood issues that he has yet to deal with. For me, I my accupuncturist is going to give me some homeopathic herbs to take - we"ll see if those work for me.
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Keep in mind that depression is not just a stage, but is present throughout MLC.
I did read an opinion that posed a question about AD's in MLC. The question was if MLC is a process that must be gone through and has no shortcuts, then is it possible that AD's could hinder that process?
I don't have the answer....I just have the question.
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Don't,
I have also read that AD's can slow down the navigation through the process. My IC has said numerous times that he thinks my H would really benefit from AD's. He also says that most major depressive episodes burn themselves out within 2 years. My H has been depressed since his MLC began in spring 2008.
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I will not be long winded on this subject as much as I would like to be!
I have A LOT if firsthand experience with a/d...with myself as well as my husband...
Yes, OP h has been on them for a few months now and the benefits have been unmeasurable!
however, it is also true the most will not have anything to do with them...my H was a bit different...meaning he knew something was wrong with him...NOT saying he doesnt or didnt do all of the normal mlc stuff but he did seek help from our doctor...he just didnt feel right...
his testosterone was nearly depleted! he went through hormone replacement that was ROUGH!!!
he couldnt take an a/d because it would play with the hormone part of it!
Once his T level came up the Dr IMMEDIATELY put him on an A/d and h didnt even question it...it is part of his overall treatment.
IMO if anyone is showing signs of depression, it should NOT go untreated...there are many options and if the person will atleast speak with their physician about it, they have taken one step towards recovery!
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Most of you have brought up the question I've been pondering. If depression, most specifically the Liminality written about on RCRs site, is a neccessary part of the process would AD's hinder their progress? My husband has told numerous people that he would take them and they've been sitting on the counter for over a month. He refuses to admit to any depression although he has shared many of his struggles, which are all signs of depression low libido, lack of purpose, not wanting to be a "waste", watched him start several books and finish none, Just someone who is stuck stuck stuck. I also wonder about low Testosterone because his brothers went through a similiar "breakdown" at the same age. EAch of them ended long term relationships to be with OM (both gay). One brother, who is a medical doctor, put himself on AD when he had an impulsive suicidal thought. It scares me to say the least.
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it saddens me to say Buggie...if the meds are only sitting on the counter, he is not ready to receive the help...if you are concerned about the low T...he needs to be able to look at the problem himself and be tested...taking an a/d with low t can make it a whole lot worse!
hugs,
L
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Thanks L1234,
I was concerned about that too. I don't want him taking them if it's going to make things worse and there is so much going on that who knows? I've had to let go and put it in God's hands because he's must take care of this himself. It's such a cycle though because someone who is deeply depressed has trouble taking action.
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My H was tested for low testosterone and the results were that it was low. Dr did not put him on meds. I don't know anything about the conversation with the Dr. The only question I asked H was how was the level and he replied low. It was obvious that he did not want to talk about it so I didn't pursue a conversation about it. Would taking meds for the testosterone help with the MLC? Thyroid and vitamin D are also low and he is on meds for that. How much of mlc is hormonal?
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How much of mlc is hormonal?
It is certainly a factor.
I doubt your husband will listen to what you say so I agree to not pursue the conversation.
The meds might help his depression and make it easier for him to see what he is doing.
All you can do at this point is watch.
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Hormone replacement helped my husband to get to a point where he saw MORE of the whole problem...since his T levels have come up, the doctor now has him on an a/d. this seems to have helped quite a bit.
it is a SLOW process though. the person needs to WANT the help. I have found for men it seems to be hard to accept the help...
I DO honestly believe that hormones can play a part in mlc...how much I dont know but it was proven true in my h's case
hope that helps some!
L
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Thank you for the personal info Lost1234. Now if only he would want to get the help. OP is right it is doubtful that he would listen to me. He really could use meds for T and some AD.
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How much of mlc is hormonal?
It is certainly a factor.
I'm sorry, but I disagree with that. I stopped looking through the medical journals as I wasn't finding anything but there are no conclusive studies regarding whether it has a hormonal component. In fact, many of the authors I have read have suggested the opposite. If anything, testosterone is often slightly lowered during MLC.
I don't disagree that it SHOULD be a component. It only makes sense if it's hormonal - however, there are no conclusive studies, so to hang your hopes on that is shooting in the dark at best.
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PS Here is a link to several references on this subject.
http://www.csun.edu/~psy453/menop_n.htm
And the article itself with snippets of studies.
Is There Such a Thing as a Male Menopause?
Resources used to support "No"
At the time of menopause in women, there is a relatively abrupt and complete loss of ovarian function that results in markedly reduced estradiol and progesterone productions and the cessations of ovulation. This profound reduction in ovarian functions has substantial physiological consequences. Including accelerated loss of bone mass, and osteoporosis, hot flushes with accompanying sleep and behavior changes, V@g!n@l atrophy, and loss of fertility. In contrast to women, fertility in men persists unt il a very old age and they experience a gradual and incomplete loss of testicular function. The existence of a variety of symptoms, impotence being the main one, has caused some to compare them to menopause and have termed these symptoms in men "andropau se." however, there is no conclusive empirical evidence that the majority of men undergo a hormonal "change of life" equivalent to that found in women. Perhaps the correct term of these symptoms is "mid-life crisis."
JOURNAL ARTICLES
* Featherstone, M., & Hepworth, M. (1985). The male menopause: Lifestyles and sexuality. Maturitas (MWN), 7, (3), 235-246.
There is no conclusive empirical evidence that the majority of men undergo a hormonal "change of life" equivalent to that of women. A significant number do experience psychological and social difficulties at some point in middle age.
* Krause, W. (1994). The male characteristic: A responsibility for dermatologic andrology? Hautarzt, 45, (9), 593-598.
Sexual impotence is considered to be the main symptom of the male climacteric. Although sexual dysfunction increases with advancing age, partly because of drug interactions, there is no sound basis for assuming an endocrine basis for the male climactic.
* Matsumoto, A. M. (1993). "Andropause:" Are reduced androgen levels in aging men physiologically important? Western Journal of Medicine, 159, (5), 618-620.
Men experience a more gradual and incomplete loss of testicular function with increasing age. Other factor may also contribute to age related male fertility, such a s loss of interest in fathering children and diminished sexual function (diminished libid o and erectile function), reduced activity, nutritional deficiency, meditations, etc.
* Parker, G. (1985). The search for intimacy in mid-life: An exploration of several myths. Australian and New Zealand Journal of Psychiatry, 19, (4), 362-371.
A review of the mid-life phase, with component features of solitude, detachment and self-doubt, its search for self and reattachement, and outcomes of reapproachment and chronic depression.
* Vermeulen, A., & Kaufman, J. M. (1995). Aging of the hypothalamo-pituitary-testicular axis in men. Hormone Research, 43, (1-3), 25-28.
Makes the distinction between the course of reproductive aging in women and men. Androgen replacement for men remain controversial.
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M&H
I do not understand why you are disagreeing with what I wrote.
What you used to back it up supports my statement.
Yes in fact male and female menopause are different.
Testosterone levels in men decline, just like you stated.
Mens estrogen levels increase.
Women's estrogen levels decline and their testosterone rises
The hormonal aspects of all this is the rate of change of the hormones.
Not the specific changes themselves.
Hormone replacement will not necessarill change any of this because the body
must still get "used" to the change and adjust accordingly.
The brain is a very powerful organ.
The books that I have read on menopause seem to support male menopause.
I can not agree with your conclusion and your evidence does not support what you are saying.
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M&H - I have not looked into the link you provided yet but I will.
OP - That is kind of what I was thinking that it is a normal process of aging and we have to get used to it. Rate of change being different for everyone therefore our ability to adapt being different. My H is only 39. To young in my opinion to fall asleep as soon as he sits down if he is not doing something. He was tested and was told it was low. Just wasn't sure if it played a part in his mlc.
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Low testosterone? My H is still making babies.
Hormones? Mine are @!*##*&@%!. Not sure about his.
Antidepressants? I love mine! Will recommend to H if he ever stops spewing, making babies, driving fast and consuming vast quantities of alcohol.
I know it's all madness, but men get fast cars and OW? We get hot flashes and mood swings. I'm saying it--not fair!
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there are MANY articles and studies out there that support low T as part of mlc.... most recent I have read was a study done in Europe...
anyways, I believe it does, so did my h's physician as well as others...guess it depends on who you ask or what you read...
In my case my h was TOLD he was in the middle of a MLC...this was also his physician speaking...who with the symptoms h was complaining (many which are also signs of clinical depression), he was sent for blood work...came back low t, was treated for that before they would dare give him an a/d, because the low t can contribute to depression...
each situation is different as well as each individual...
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Lost1234
My belief is that with your husband, because he was treated for low T and AD his crisis is much shorter than everyone elses. I agree that it did not end it but look at the duration/time period in comparison to everyone else.
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Op,
I agree with you about mt h. The duration may seem shorter but, he was going through this well before he or myself really took notice,between 2 and 3 years...
He KNEW something wasnt right and that led him to seek the help of his physician... it was with the help of the Dr that he was able to somewhat accept what was going on with him...it has still been a LONG haul, and we arent out of the woods yet.....
Point being that depression is consistant during a MLC. If low T and other hormone issues contribute to depression, those need to be investigated and treated first, then a qualified person can continue treating the one going through it...
more research needs to be done, obviously not by me or you...this is only my story...but I believe whole heartedly that with all of the depression that comes during the MLC...how in the world could being treated for it be a bad thing? the bad thing is that most people do not seek treatment, when indeed they probably should
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how in the world could being treated for it be a bad thing? the bad thing is that most people do not seek treatment, when indeed they probably should
I completely agree.
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I agree that being treated for low testosterone, or depression, if possible and applicable, is a good thing. It is certainly important in some cases, although the psychological journey also needs to be addressed.
The latest information I have is that andropause (male menopause) only affects 2% of men (It's "rare but not a myth"):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/10338355.stm
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2%?
Way too low. The journalism in this article is suspect.
Why is the divorce rate 50% if only 2% of the people are affected by menpause.
It is all the women's fault. I don't think so!!!
This 2% is also only those that are being treated for male menopause.
I would argue that 100% of all people go though menopause.
They all have different symptoms some far worse than others.
Some barely know that it is happening.
Also if the numbers are so low then why do they sell so much viagra, and cialis.
Certainly that is higher than those 2% numbers.
Depression is rampant in the U.S. among men and women.
And most of it is undiagnosed.
Ok, I'll get off my soapbox now.
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Ok, I'll get off my soapbox now.
That made me laugh, OP. ;D I'm glad I'm not the only one with a soap box around here. My turn: it's always better to go back to the study itself; however, the report was not about men who were being treated, but men aged 40 to 79 in general. They measured testorone levels, but even where depression symptoms existed, they did not have low testorone.
2. The divorce rate has been changing along the past 100 years, which suggests socio-cultural changes rather than hormonal.
3. Hormone changes are natural, how we deal with it is multifactoral
4. MLC is multifactoral, like depression, stress, burnout, divorce...
I'll climb down now. Your turn, OP:
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You know as far as male menopause goes, I only have my own experience to fall back on.
I am not being treated for low testosterone. Nor have I had mine measured.
However, I have an idea what my sexual desires are.
I certainly had a higher desire in my twenties than I do now.
My wife going through MLC has not helped any of this.
I thought that everything was somewhat "normal"(whatever that means)
prior to bomb drop. Maybe my desires were a little higher than normal.
Maybe now they are a little lower. Again I am just measuring ME.
Certainly as men age their testosterone levels decrease.
I do not think that this is debateable.
The brain can make up for the loss of hormones(somewhat).
I think that MLC is the variance or rate of change within the body.
The brain must take time to adjust.
With most men, I would include myself in this it takes a long time to go through this process.
I have read from ages 20-70. So there are no huge changes in the short term
but over the entire time period there are certainly huge changes.
So I guess what I am saying is that low testosterone. What does that mean?
In relationship to what number?
I think the study is flawed in its use of numbers.
What might be low for me might be high for someone else.
The numbers must be looked at over a long period of time which I am sure they are not doing.
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One last thing.
I agree with the article that giving hormone treatment is not the answer to this problem.
I just don't like the 2% number that they think, is all the people that are affected.
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op,
I also agree that 2% is way too low...
although it is real, and not a myth, many out there do not check into it enough to get to the root of the problem...many cases probably are being diagnosed as something similar...
I think in general men sometimes have a hard time admitting something is wrong and wanting to get help...especially when it involves their Manhood so to speak...
I know my h did...but now he can joke about man-o pause! lol
I also agree that hormone replacement is NOT the quick fix....however if proven that low t is a definate issue for a man, i would recommend it where aplicable
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2% too low? Everything can be questioned, but where is the evidence that it is higher?
Absolutely right about men not seeking help. Medical studies confirm this.
I think what they were looking at were sudden changes, or testosterone as the root cause of depression. Humans are not only biological, although our biology underpins everything, including our sense of self, value system etc. I think this is important; MLC is not ONE thing, it is not caused by one thing (but of course there are triggers, including physical and hormonal).
In the case of my H, there is no evidence of falling testosterone levels. His existential crisis is long and deep, and he has had episodes throughout his life (caused by traumatic external events). He doesn't seem particularly concerned with age, either. He looks 20 years younger than he is, and is physically very fit (but until recently has behaved as if he was 30 years older).
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"Although the secretion of testosterone gradually decline with advanced age, the rate after 40 is about 1% per year and is not enough to account for any decrease in libido or erectile function"
But "adrenal androgenic steroids... decrease by 50% from 20 years of age to 50 years of age... and may lead to some decrease in physical vigor and musculoskeletal flexibility"
"In numerous cross cultural studies of men and women, there does not appear to be a well defined entity called the "mid-life crisis". In both men and women, there is no well defined increase in major depression or major affective disorders in mid-life"
http://library.med.utah.edu/kw/human_reprod/lectures/pubertal_midlife/#4
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My opinion is that hormones probably do play some part. I'm not going to even think about percentages because I don't really know. If hormones are related to mood and depression, then those changes are probably accurate.
One of my biggest questions about MLC (or even MLT) comes from examples like Lost1234's husband, or even Jim and Sally Conway (especially Sally). Lost1234 says her husband KNEW something was wrong. When I read "Women in Midlife Crisis", Sally indicates she KNEW something was wrong. Even though Jim's urges and desire to run away were strong, he did not run away, nor did he have an affair.
I suppose it probably depends on the "severity" of the MLC, but I don't know how you would gauge that. I've just wondered why some people "know" something is wrong, but others do not seem to, or at least don't verbalize it.
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I should also mention that my wife did throw in a small clue to me that she was feeling "different". It was less than a week before "bomb drop". I remember we were in bed, but I don't remember if it was when going to bed or when waking up. I don't even remember the exact way she said it, but she said she felt "weird". We talked about it for a few minutes, and she really couldn't put her finger on anything specific.
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I saw something happening within my husband too which is very hard to put words too. Some of it was gradually since 2007 but at the end of 2008 when he was ending football season something was very wrong. Again, I can't tell you exactly what but I actually know now that I was feeling him slip away. THIS scared the HECK out of me and I panicked trying to reach out connect PURSUE, PURSUE. This of course is related to my own issues which I'm starting to see and heal based on his crisis but it was scary. I noticed this before the affair started and before bomb drop. Lots of stuff came up from December-Feb/mar
no purpose
trapped by family
depression about the elderly (the hoveround commercial makes him look like he's going to vomit)
questions about marriage ( not ours in particular but the institution)
yelling at his own parents (which he never did!)
stopped helping with household stuff
yelling at our children (one time while my daughter was very sick with rotovirus and in the bathroom throwing up. )
I was so shocked by his actions/behaviors that I think I was in denial and did very little. Finally I told him figure it out or I'm out. He went to therapy been there for a year. Now living with parents and doesn't think he has no problem. The relationship is the problem or else an affair couldn't have happened?!?
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The relationship is the problem or else an affair couldn't have happened?!?
This is a common attitude -- not just in MLC -- it means that the person having the affair shifts responsibility for it away from him/herself.
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The relationship is the problem or else an affair couldn't have happened?!?
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Dont know if I completely agree with this statement...all I will say...
Mlc and the lbs journey are all about YOU...whether you are going through a MLC or you are the one that has been left behind...it is ALL about YOU...
no offense intended to anyone, I was a VERY tough one to sink this into...I was the one left behind...the BEST thing I did was to distance myself, do for me and my children and out what he was or wasnt doing out of my mind as best I could...
you have no clue and neither do they on WHY they do what they do...they are not in the right frame of mind...they are confused
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I think I might not have been clear -- it's not that I agreed with the statement, it's that it's often something they (the mlc-er or even non-mlc-er having an affair) say to justify their actions. That doesn't make it true, but in their confusion they believe it.
Is that more clear?
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I was a VERY tough one to sink this into...I was the one left behind...the BEST thing I did was to distance myself, do for me and my children and out what he was or wasnt doing out of my mind as best I could...
:) :) :)
You have come so far!!!!!
:) :) :)
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L1234 and T&L
That last comment in the above post should have been quoted. It's my husbands reason for his state of mind. Sorry for the misunderstanding. This is truly what he believes. If he didn't believe this he would have to look at himself and deal with all the buried emotions related to this. I was and still am confident in the fact that this is NOT about the relationship. I remind myself that I existed in this relationship too (issues/non issues and all) and did not make the same choices. Therefore it must be about something deeper. Whether or not he is willing to go there will determine how he uses this MLC and the support and love I have provided. It is all about the MLCER of that I am sure and in creating their crisis they then create an opportunity or danger for the LBS. We then become faced with the same choice in different clothing.
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TAL and Buggie,
yes, and thank you! makes more sense now! lol
Op, thank you! I HAVE come a LONG way...good to see some who recognize this of me!!
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M&H
I do not understand why you are disagreeing with what I wrote.
My quibble was not with the possibility that MLC could be hormonal but with your word certainly. Certainly means "certain, without a doubt" and there is a doubt here. My point was just with the word you used, not with the general premise. There is NO general consensus among the science community (the little there is that have studied this phenomena) that andropause/menpause exists.
My only fear with using certainly as a modifier is that people would take that as gospel. I am of the opinion that something chemical DOES go on with MLC. I am a biology student, after all, and have been immersed in the culture - although not full time - for a decade. My goal is to go on to some sort of doctorate program in the area of science, medicine and psychology, although not sure where just yet. I have waffled between veterinarian studies, human disease research, and animal and human nutrition (using food as a drug). Now I’m thinking of studying MLC, to be honest. It’s fascinating and there’s not much out there, we are certainly in need.
The point I was trying to get across is just that MLC MAY have a chemical component, it LIKELY DOES have a chemical component, but the science is just not clear on that yet, nor is there agreement on it. Testosterone levels, as Mermaid mentioned, do decrease rather slowly as compared to female hormones.
I have seen a marked difference in female vs male MLC on this and other boards. I am also of the opinion that if we were able, and it is probably unlikely as the microcosm I'm talking about is so very small for each individual type of MLC - but if we were able to flush out differing types of MLC, we would find out that there is a difference not only between the sexes but also between age groups. Now, since there is a very strong psychological component to MLC as well as what is likely to be a biological/physiological component, we would likely be studying this ad infinitum.
A very strong possibility exists that ADs or hormone therapy may help lessen the symptoms of MLC. It also exists the possibility that it may mask those symptoms, bury feelings and growth potential that maybe SHOULD be expressed, as painful as it is. What will happen to those who medicate a natural process of life? Will they still grown, albeit with less pain? Or will they miss out on some deep, psychological level of growth that may have made them SHINE later in life, may have completed their growth and development? (to as much of a degree that the constantly changing and growing human can be “completed” anyway)
I am concerned with the tendency to medicate everything these days. I listen to quite a few medical podcasts at work as I can’t always find time to read the journals to see what’s happening out there. I heard a doctor, an endocrine specialist, explain about a study he had read. It was on vitamin E and he said at the end, they extolled the virtues of Vitamin E, saying it did this and it did that. Then they said something along the paraphrased lines of “since Vitamin E is so advantageous to the human condition, we suggest that there is growth potential for a pharmaceutical company to develop something that will give the same benefits to us.” Does anyone not see the craziness of this culture that we find a natural substance and then want to chemicalize it and sell it back to the masses as a health promoting DRUG?
There are probably many things that will help MLC, but these men and women are doing all they can to hold on. Many are holding down jobs, at the same time as they are growing, developing, finding out who they are, trying new things, casting off the old, trying it back on again. It’s exhausting just thinking about it.
I’m not going to suggest to my husband to try any drugs because it’s my belief that this is a growth period that he MUST go through and I don’t want him to dull his senses. That’s not for everyone, and that’s fine. Some go through natural childbirth and some as for drugs. Some are in between and do some drugs and not others. Personally, I want my husband back in my life, and I believe we will get there. I KNOW we will, actually, I can feel it deep inside of me. It stinks, yes, but I am willing to wait on him to do the growth he needs to do. And I’m taking the time to grow myself. When is is closer and more out of the tunnel, I will likely sneak in some depression relieving things such as going on mtn bike rides with him again (exercise), feeding him healthy foods (nutrition), and so on.
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How much of mlc is hormonal?
It is certainly a factor
I would be willing to ammend what I wrote to remove the word certainly.
It would now read:
"It is a factor."
But I could not say: It is NOT a factor.
I see the way I wrote it might be a little confusing.
I have a science background but I am NOT a scientist. LOL!
I do agree with you that drugs might mask their journey.
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OP... Do you mean it is ALWAYS a factor or CAN BE a factor? ??? I agree with the second statement.
I agree M&H. We have to be very careful with any certanties. In science/ social science EVERYTHING is open to revision.
I think it's so important to realise that MLC is not ONE thing with a single trajectory, but a set of behaviours with some similarities. In research, we have to be so careful about NOT fitting the facts (as we see them) to existing theories, but to be open to other interpretations. So, although it is comforting to apply a theory such as "it's hormones", and it CAN sometimes be relavant, it is not always.
Our brains and bodies work with chemicals/ hormones etc of all types; any changes in their balance can disrupt they way we function. (For example, food intolerances can lead to depression, irritability, etc.) Humans are also social animals, and we build our perceptions of ourselves and the world through social interactions (although their is a pre-social feeling "self" in the limbic brain). These perceptions also have an effect on the physical body, neurologically, and chemically. So there is an interaction between the sociocultural world and bodily reactions of all types.
Sometimes intervention is needed; psychiatrists know that they need to intervene with antidepressants before the brain learns to create depressed behaviours. HRT is sometimes important to avoid secondary effects of a sudden change in hormone levels. But drugs, as M&H has said, are not always the answer. Even when they are important, they are not the only factor for psychological problems... as we all know, because our attitudes count too!
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IS he ever going to tell me that there is another woman or he will just carry on being wit her and me?
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Sorry I am not an English major either.
I think I will just stick with what I wrote and let all of you interpret any way you want.
The books that I have read certainly seem to think that it is a factor.
Margolla I sent you a PM and responded with the same message on your first post.
Look under "My messages" at the top to get my PM
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Here is my take on H, low testosterone levels, and meds.
I believe his MLC began in summer/fall 2007. That fall his T levels were tested and found to be very low. He began replacement therapy. No emotional signs of MLC except his weight loss attempts, trying to recover his youthful appearance, etc. Through mid 2008 his mood seemed normal. We were dealing with an issue with one of our kids and he was a bit short tempered about that at times. Feb/2008. Big fight, he left for a night. Came back, we "worked" on marriage. Dec. 2008 he wants to see a MC. We do for several months. I thought things were improving. Spring 2009 he stops replacement therapy as it was becoming too expensive. He "decides" by summer 2009 marriage is over. Affair begins summer 2009. BD1-May 2010, BD 2-June 2010. Curiously enough a week or so before BD-1 he began replacement therapy again. His T levels were again extremely low. His Dr. has only mentioned it will help with weight loss. He's never mentioned that the low T levels can be a cause of depression. I wonder if the increasing levels of T is why I've not seen much spewing yet? Time will tell.
He's never been on AD's, but he does occasionally use an anti-anxiety drug. He did so in the last week. The morning after he took one, we had one of our best, most intimate conversations in months. Unfortunately I realized a few days later it was probably the anti-anxiety drug talking and not him.
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Anti anxiety drugs won't make much, if any, difference to what he says. They just control anxiety a bit.
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Mermaid,
I couldnt agree more...anti anxiety drugs calm a person down...I have had to use them myself. If anything it helped me to think clearer...my mind was not in a million places while taking them. It was actually easier for me to speak about something that may have been upsetting or stressful...
L
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Lost1234 and Mermaid--thanks for the info. I've not taken AD's or anti-anxiety meds myself so I have no way experience with how they might change thinking and words.
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This is my first post. My husband moved out in October when I found out about his EA w/a woman 10 years younger at his work. She had actuallly cut it off w/him just a few weeks (or a month) prior b/c she started having "real feelings" and didn't want to do anything physical b/c he is married. I guess I should be happy for that. UGH. I also wish he had ended, but oh well. He was in FULL on Replay at that time and couldn't stop. He also was hanging out w/a much younger crew of guys at work and travelled much of the summer. After I found out about the EA, he confessed to kissing 2 random girls in Vegas at Bachelor Parties this summer. Pretty brutal. So that was the bomb drop and he fled after all that. He was living w/one of the younger guys but now is living in a furnished apartment. We were communicating for awhile and he has all the classic MLC confusion. Going back and forth. Saying he doesn't want to be a husband then says he misses me and isn't sure what he wants. I told him this can't keep going on. It's been almost 4 months of this! He thinks I'll be his friend if we divorce. That's part of the fantasy land. I told him he has to stop emailing me and asking my thoughts on movies etc b/c I'm not going to be his friend. If he needs a separation of no talking to see if a divorce is what he really wants then HERE IT IS!! I told him I love him and don't define him by 2010 (all year in Replay) and I love him and don't want to give up, but at the same time I won't be his friend if he wants to divorce me. We've been together 11 years next month. Very sad for me. Anyway, after he moved out and had the "freedom" he wanted suddenly he didn't desire to go out to bars and do that stuff. He said it was like a rebellion. He said at first he wasn't coming home b/c of guilt but now he can't come home and he doesn't know why. he loves me and doesn't want to hurt me. Hates to keep me "waiting on him". He's been seeing a shrink since beg. of December and started Zoloft 2 weeks ago. Does anyone know if an anti depressant will help my husband out of this fog. I literally can't believe this is happening! Also, I think he is in Depression/Withdrawl b/c I heard about him seeming blue at work and crying at work lunch. Is there hope he will come home soon??
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Does anyone know if an anti depressant will help my husband out of this fog.
No, the crisis must run its course because it is a PROCESS that must be completed...although the Anti depressants will help clear the fog, somewhat, it won't stop the process from running its course.
Coming home will be up to him; but some who come home aren't ready; and it's hard on a LBS to deal with a MLC'er who's clearly still in the tunnel.
If/when he comes home, it won't mean he's anywhere near to the end of the tunnel...and IF he's not ready, he will cut and run once again; it has been known to happen.
All you can do is work on yourself; making the necessary changes within you're supposed to make; letting go of your husband; and letting God do His work.
In other words, get your focus OFF him; and on you...you can do nothing for him; only help yourself.
Take care.
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Thank you for your response. I just miss my husband. I feel like a stranger is in his body :-[ I'm not sure why he is like this. I miss him. I told him last week not to contact me unless about finances b/c I felt he is giving me mixed signals by being friendly and saying at the same time he might want a divorce. So no contact. I'm sad. Should I email him and say a one-liner like "I'm here if you want to talk by email or phone. I will listen and I won't question you". Should I send that? or it makes me seem weak?
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Lola,
Mixed signals are common within the MLC; because the MLC'er really doesn't know what he wants; and so it is one thing, one day, another the next.
Should I email him and say a one-liner like "I'm here if you want to talk by email or phone. I will listen and I won't question you". Should I send that? or it makes me seem weak?
I wouldn't tell him anything at the moment; let him come to you; I believe he will when he needs you; and most likely not until.
In the state of mind he's in, he may interpret your email as pressure on him to talk; in other words he will see the "opposite" of what you are saying..they are like that; masters of the twisted word and action.
It is better to stay silent; and wait to see what he does; and in the meantime; get your focus OFF him and onto you; getting on with your life AS IF he's not going to continue with you.
Besides that, he won't trust what you're saying; they never do trust the LBS; again, it's the state of mind they are in for the time being...so; although you can do whatever you want, I'm advising you to wait until he contacts you on his own.
On top of all this; the crisis working on him is WHY he is what he is at the moment; and if you try and talk to him, he will twist everything back on you; and you don't need that.
Again, get on with your life, take your journey to wholeness and healing; more understanding will come as you walk your path to the end.
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Thank you again. I will try to get on with my journey. You are right. Thanks for responding
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Lola, sorry that your H has become someone that you know longer know. I still find it difficult to believe that my H of 33 years is no longer my partner, best friend and husband for LIFE..you will find good information here and lots of wonderful people. It helps me so much as I am very lonely.
It is impossible to make any sense and it takes a long time for them to get through....there are no fast or quick solutions.
Take good care of yourself, get lots of rest, eat well and don't make any rash decisions. Be supportive but do not pursue him. On some level, he knows that you are there for him as you always have been.
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Thank you so much. I'm going to try and take care of myself. I took a shower and that's a chore for me. I wish this time would pass. I think the most helpful thing is that HE has to do this ALONE and nothing I can say, do or anything at all will make him "snap out of this" or "wake up". I'm sorry you are lonely. I am too. I miss my best friend, husband and lover.
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I'm wondering about those of you who have MLC'ers on antidepressants and/or seeing a medical professional. My H was already under the care of a psychologist for what he referred to as "social anxiety" prior to BD. After BD and the major issues regarding his "mental" state he returned to his doctor for depression. He has been going every other week for about a year now. He has told me that his doctor "advised" him to deal with this alone.........to which I do not believe. He also said his doctor told him it would take him years to recover from this major set back and he would more than likely stay on antidepressants the rest of his life. My H has told me that "mental illness/depression" runs in his family. He has a Narcissistic sister and has told me that one of his grandparents suffered from depression and his father did also. I am also wondering if being on antidepressants and/or under a psychologist care is a hindrance to my H's MLC journey. Any thoughts?
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LMM,
My H's MLC was brought on by a medical problem at a marathon. He had to take an ambulance out of the race. Afterwards, he developed heart palpitations, anxiety attacks, vertigo, mood swings, etc. He was eventually diagnosed with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. He was prescribed anti-depressants which increased his vertigo and caused extreme weight loss. He swore he would never take them again. He does still have Valium for panic attacks which he has very rarely. Later, he started to see a sports psychologist to work on his adjusting back into athletic competitions....he stopped those appointments abruptly. He never told me he was seeing someone and never told me when he stopped.
To be honest, I think that medications can slow the journey down. They have to get to the point where they are able to have their world completely "defogged". Medications can mask the true emotions. I only know of one situation where the MLC'er was brought out of the "fog" by antidepressants.
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LoveMyMan
I merged this question in with another thread that we had on the subject.
Feel free to read through this and continue to ask questions.
I hope the other thread will help with some of them.
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Thanks, OP and everyone else. I have no idea what type of meds my H is taking. He has mentioned them in passing several times. The most recent being about 3 or 4 weeks ago. He stated that he was on so much/strong dosages due to his "state" and suicidal thoughts. I've read that sometimes MLC can lead to suicide in men.......more than women. I don't know where I read it but I thought at the time that I'm thankful that my H is on medication and seeing a doctor. It took him several months on the meds to return to what seems "normal".........not crying all the time, spewing, hating, etc. We don't have much contact now. He comes and goes.........sometimes sending a text and/or email. We were suppose to talk last night but he never called. I figured it was another "game" of his........he has told me he didn't like it when I was in control.......so, setting up the phone call, time, etc. was all my idea and even though he agreed he never followed through. I struggle with how he treats me but I fight it and realize again it's just part of this MLC process. I'd love to hear from others input regarding the antidepressants. I believe my H wouldn't have made it this far without them. He has a collection of weapons and when this first started he talked repeatedly of "ending" it all. He was in so much emotional pain. He literally "played" with a pistol while talking to me on the phone and let me hear the "clicking"........I believe he was testing me but I was so upset and panicked. He hung up on me and wouldn't answer when I tried calling him back. I jumped in my car and raced to his apartment only to have him completely ignore my pleas to answer his phone and/or the door. When I returned home after about two hours of begging him I called him again around midnight and he answered the phone speaking in a very calm and "matter-of-fact" tone and acting as if nothing had happened. It was as if he were laughing in my face. That incident was in the very beginning of all this.......over a year ago. I sometimes think most of his comments/actions are meant to hurt me. Thanks again for everybody's input.
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Still
I didn't know your H was diagnosed PTSD. I'm not sure how I missed that in reading your threads. It explains some of the similarities I see between our H's. Have you read up on PTSD? IF your H is at all willing to go to therapy there is something that will help with the PTSD. You can PM/email me and we can talk about it.
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Ok, you can get ready to shoot me down BUT this is from MY experience and well documented studies is that the more they talk about it the LESS likely they are to do it.
The more they talk the more likely it is to be used as a control method.
Sometimes things maybe said in passing but rarely do they say i am and then torment you with it.
Believe me I know. I have been suicidal twice and neither time did I tell ANYONE until after it had all gone away. I was very cold and calculated and knew exactly how Iwas going to do it so that no one would be able to save me, or stop me.
You read stories of "oh they seemed down but I never knew..." or even "I had no clue."
THIS is the way it is. The more they threaten the morelikely they are yanking your chain. H told me 2 months after he left he had thought about it but something stopped him. I was terrified but as a few male friends said no point in being terrified now, he won't do it now he's told you.
So please don't let them control you this way. If they are going to they would do it and nothing you could do would stop them it is THEIR choice not your problem.
Sorry to sound harsh but that is the way it is.
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SL, thanks for your input. I had also heard that many times. People who talk are just all talk......they never intend to carry it out. I've read too many stories about people who actually did carry it out (suicide) and nobody ever, not once, heard them talk about it. I felt like I was having my "chain" yanked as you stated. I figured it was an attempt on my H's part to see if I really cared about him or not.......maybe another "control" thing. He might have even gotten a thrill out of doing that to me. I feel like when he told me about being on so much medication because of his "suicidal thoughts" it was just another ploy to get sympathy from me. These MLC'ers really know how to play head games. I appreciate your input.
We all sure need each other and it's just so nice to be able to share with others.
Have a great weekend everybody!
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I had also heard that many times. People who talk are just all talk......they never intend to carry it out. I've read too many stories about people who actually did carry it out (suicide) and nobody ever, not once, heard them talk about it.
My H has talked about suicide at least 3 times last year. To members of my family as well as me.
On each occasion it was for attention and to drag me onto the rollercoaster.
He is cheif manipulator during this MLC.
That didn't work so now we are onto the next thing.
I believe that saying too.
If they are talking about it, they are less likely to do it.
If they are going to do it, they won't tell, they just do.
HUGS
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I have completed months of research on this subject and it may be having an effect on our situations.
For those LBS taking medication to help you have you noticed an emotional disconnect from your partner shortly after treatment has started?
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I have voted that I dont know.
I havent taken anything myself, I do know though that my h had taken a herbal remedy for depression St johns wort I think it was, I only found out later what it was for, I thought it was for indigestion as he also took milk thistle and that senna stuff I thought it was all similar and didnt take much notice at the time, just thought they were all for more healthy digestion.
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That's interesting because st Johns wort can cause similar manic reactions similar to anti depressants and also work in the same way and effect the same hormone . This is especially the case when mixed with alcohol or if the taker was slightly bipolar. This is quite a big part of my w problem imo. I wish mote people would get involved as it really might be something else involved in the mix.
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I have just voted yrs and realised others have so ignore my previous post and thanks for getting involved! :DThe results so far showthat they are involved in a lot of cases. My phone is lagging badly so I will share some of my findings when I get to a proper keyboard!!
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Hi BC
my h has been depressed for years--did not ever sleep--traveled for work. he is also conflict avoidant and passive aggressive, in addition to probably a lot of other things. in November of 2010, after he had blown up at me one night after he had gotten home from being out with friends, he started therapy and went on anti-anxiety meds (prozac i think--whatever commercial that had the little sad egg-looking thing rolling around). after several months, he quit the meds cold turkey and the bottom just dropped out of everything. he said the reason he quit the meds was that i had not given him enough encouragement. WTF?
h also quit therapy, which leads me to believe the therapist had gotten to a point of telling h things h didn't want to hear. i could be wrong though.
h is really a disaster of a person, and has been for years now. MLC takes a long time!
onlyjo
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My H's story is very similar to OJ's. He was going through something in 2009 or longer, but started first with Seroquel XR after a bipolar diagnosis by the general practitioner (I know) in Jan 2010, within a month I think was then transferred to a psychiatrist and separate therapist who downgraded to generalized anxiety (H was scared of having a more serious illness - I think he lied to get it downgraded) and was put on I believe Celexa or something else I'm forgetting - but definitely did the Celexa for awhile and actually did well on it (other than digestive issues). Because of the issues he was switched to Lexapro, went off of it cold turkey within a month, all hell broke loose and life has never been the same, yadda yadda. It wasn't the cause, but I spoke with a PTSD specializing psychologist (happens to be a friend's mother) who believes the drugs, given at a time when he was not manic, threw him into mania. I suspect the FOO on the father's side has a B6 deficiency due to a lot of consistent chronic issues that lead back to that. If that's true, he naturally is not creating enough serotonin, and that is contributing to the depression and Monster. I also think there's a strong link to a dissociative fugue state, but I also think there's merit in looking at it psychologically through the Erikson/Conway/Jung MLC viewpoint. Maybe low T too? Can we just call it a hot mess? ::) ;D
But I answered "I don't know" because I don't since he is off in la la land. I do know he did better when just on B-complex, St. John's Wort, and briefly spring of 2012 when I talked him into trying L-Tyrosine.
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Right guys and girls this is really starting to make sense. CT withdrawal will make someone turn manic and even the manufacturer of the drug advises against this. Low serotonin theory is a load of crap too! There is no way of measuring serotonin in a living brain for a start. Also raising serotonin lowers dopamine which is the love hormone which bonds ccouples together. This happens over time as the brain tries to balance the imbalance caused by the nerds. This is a brief explanation but I will have more.
These drugs take away anxiety by flooding the brain with serotonin closing down dopamine production leading to emotional blunting .The uSer craves dopamine hits which are attained in short bursts by New partners hobbies risk taking etc. Sounds like a midlife crisis does it not?
Google Helen Fisher and ssri stopping love. What I would say about posters who are saying no is are they certain their spouse's did not take ad's before BD
Sweating and wild eyes are aalso a side effect. Funny that!
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The theory behind the problem. Please note that my research has also been taken from Dr Peter Breggin, Professor David Healey, Professor Helen Fisher, Dr Ann Blake Tracey, Professor Lardi, Robert Whittaker and many more esteemed professionals. Also note that clinical trials of these drugs last only 12 weeks for approval. When you CT or taper the brain has to regrow neuro Transmitters that the brain has closed down to try to balance the hormone imbalance caused by these drugs. The whole serotonin issue of depression has virtually been debunked. Everyone is different and it is the consistency of hormones that make a person who they are. I could write about this for hours but will leave you with this for now. I am not saying our spouses are not having MLC I am saying that it is the meds they may initiate the feeling of wasted life and no feelings toward the spouse. Still the same problem to deal with but if they stay off the meds it may facilitate recovery. Maybe this is the difference between returning and not. If the MLCer stays on the drug then they can not progress as they are stuck in a rut of numbness. Ever thought how meds have helped the LBS deal with it. By numbing emotions so we do not care. Can you see how this may drive some of our spouses behaviours? This is not my article by the way.
Why they walk away
Over the past few years I have heard numerous stories about relationships abandoned while someone was either on an SSRI / SNRI or during withdrawal. I have thought about this untold hours and I’m going to try sharing those thoughts here.
I want to be very clear that this is not directed at anyone and I am in no way being judgmental.
The Beginning
It all starts innocently enough when someone has gone to the Dr for an ailment, any ailment but for this exercise we’ll say anxiety. They get a prescription for one of the medications known as SSRI’s or SNRI’s which are a type of antidepressant. They get the usual blather about how safe they are and how effective they are along with a stern warning about how they can cause dry mouth, nausea and a feeling of sleepiness. These drugs include Paxil, Prozac. Lexapro. Celexa, Zoloft, Effexor and Cymbalta.
The unsuspecting victim gets the prescription filled and because they were reassured about the safety from the Dr they don’t purchase a microscope to read the insert that comes with the medication.
They begin taking the medication and before long they have changed but it’s a very slow change. Changes that are barely noticeable in the beginning, starting with an anger outburst or an out of character comment.
When frontal lobe syndrome occurs symptoms such as Apathy, indifference, loss of initiative, becoming indifferent toward work performance, exhibiting impulsive and disinhibited behavior, or developing poor concentration and forgetful behavior (Hoehn-Saric et al. 1991). may be present.
The inability to feel good or satisfied may be missing due to a reduced dopamine level. The activities they once enjoyed no longer light their fire. You see for every incremental increase in serotonin levels there is a corresponding decrease in the level of the neurotransmitter Dopamine that allows us to feel reward or satisfaction. The big sale or other achievement won’t feel right, it won’t be enough. The cuddle at night may become meaningless.
Some will become manic. Mania includes but may not be limited to such things as
• increased energy, decreased sleep
• overly irritable
• fast emotional changes
• inflated self-esteem
• increased sexual drive
• overspending
• poor judgment
The retrospective study I read says that slightly less than 9% will experience mania as a side effect of these drugs. A report on Fox News today said there are 30 million people in the US on these drugs at any one time and that 5% are manic or psychotic. Psychotic just means they have lost touch with reality. Perceived feelings begin to emerge which often times include blaming their significant other for everything bad that has ever happened or for things that never happened. The phone call just to see how they’re doing that was once viewed as sweet or considerate is now viewed as “checking up on me”
With that being the case and with more than half being women or girls it doesn’t take much reasoning to figure out what happens when they experience an increased sex drive, become disinhibited and exercise poor judgment. I use women here as the example merely because it’s much easier for them to act out sexually than it is for men. That however in no way precludes men from engaging in this type behavior for the exact same reasons.
It has also been reported in trial data that some people will actively pursue such things as pornography when they never were inclined to do so before. These are all things that may be outside “their normal behavior” Keep that simple phrase in mind “their normal behavior” it’s the key to understanding what has happened or is happening now.
Some will say at this point that sex had nothing to do with MY decision. The sexual scenario was just an example. The out of character behavior can and does come in virtually any form including but in no way limited to excessive spending, gambling, vivid violent dreams directed towards the loved one that create a fear of what you might do and the list goes on.
Soon with the help of the drug they begin to rationalize what they’ve done. Believing these new activities feelings and fears are really who they are and what they want they simply walk away from their previous life to pursue the perceived utopian existence they have discovered under the numbing mind altering influence of their medication.
Having rationalized they begin to feel threatened. Their secrets aren’t safe, so now what? The hard wired survival mechanism known as fight or flight kicks in.
Fight or flight
What is the "fight or flight response?"
This fundamental physiologic response forms the foundation of modern day stress medicine. The "fight or flight response" is our body's primitive, automatic, inborn response that prepares the body to "fight" or "flee" from perceived attack, harm or threat to our survival.
What happens to us when we are under excessive stress?
When we experience excessive stress—whether from internal worry or external circumstance—a bodily reaction is triggered, called the "fight or flight" response. Originally discovered by the great Harvard physiologist Walter Cannon, this response is hard-wired into our brains and represents a genetic wisdom designed to protect us from bodily harm. This response actually corresponds to an area of our brain called the hypothalamus, which—when stimulated—initiates a sequence of nerve cell firing and chemical release that prepares our body for running or fighting.
What are the signs that our fight or flight response has been stimulated (activated)?
When our fight or flight response is activated, sequences of nerve cell firing occur and chemicals like adrenaline, noradrenaline and cortisol are released into our bloodstream. These patterns of nerve cell firing and chemical release cause our body to undergo a series of very dramatic changes. Our respiratory rate increases. Blood is shunted away from our digestive tract and directed into our muscles and limbs, which require extra energy and fuel for running and fighting. Our pupils dilate. Our awareness intensifies. Our sight sharpens. Our impulses quicken. Our perception of pain diminishes. Our immune system mobilizes with increased activation. We become prepared—physically and psychologically—for fight or flight. We scan and search our environment, "looking for the enemy."
When our fight or flight system is activated, we tend to perceive everything in our environment as a possible threat to our survival. By its very nature, the fight or flight system bypasses our rational mind—where our more well thought out beliefs exist—and moves us into "attack" mode. This state of alert causes us to perceive almost everything in our world as a possible threat to our survival. As such, we tend to see everyone and everything as a possible enemy. Like airport security during a terrorist threat, we are on the look out for every possible danger. We may overreact to the slightest comment. Our fear is exaggerated. Our thinking is distorted. We see everything through the filter of possible danger. We narrow our focus to those things that can harm us. Fear becomes the lens through which we see the world.
We can begin to see how it is almost impossible to cultivate positive attitudes and beliefs when we are stuck in survival mode. Our heart is not open. Our rational mind is disengaged. Our consciousness is focused on fear, not love. Making clear choices and recognizing the consequences of those choices is unfeasible. We are focused on short-term survival, not the long-term consequences of our beliefs and choices. When we are overwhelmed with excessive stress, our life becomes a series of short-term emergencies. We lose the ability to relax and enjoy the moment.
Over time many medicated partners will file for divorce. Not realizing the thing that changed was the delicate balance in their brain caused by the drug. Believing with all their heart and soul that they are in control of their feelings and finally doing what they want in their life.
By now you may be thinking if all this is true, then why are they seemingly so happy and content with the new life. The answer to that is simple. It’s because it’s new and never before experienced and because of that it can elicit a Dopamine response when the old ways couldn’t. Not because it’s better, simply because it’s new.
Let’s fast forward just a bit. Now we’ve gotten to this point the excitement of the new life and in some cases the new partner begins to wear off. The shine tarnishes and the spark cools. The drugs are now out of their system and they’ve done some healing and the decisions they made and their current situation don’t make as much sense as they once did. Maybe some feelings that were believed to be gone are beginning to sneak back into the picture.
While just going back and trying to work things out might be the obvious step it isn’t that easy. Even if the person now realizes it was the drugs and most won’t at this point the situation is very complex. Now you have someone that walked away from the people they loved and who loved them but they question why did I leave, why did I think those things are they really how I feel? How do I know that what I feel now is real?
If that isn’t enough there are also feelings of shame, embarrassment, wondering how anyone could forgive what happened. Financial and legal problems health concerns and the list could go on.
If the person returns it will only be after they have completed the necessary journey. For some this may only take a few days and it’s done. For others the journey will be longer with twists and turns that may include divorce and even getting married to someone else. The journey like the little pills that set the whole thing in motion is unpredictable and unique to each individual.
How does a couple overcome all of this?
First both people have to understand it was the drug that caused the behaviors and actions.
For the jilted partner this is simply not the time to let macho or feminist attitudes control your thinking. This is the time to remember your wedding vows. For better or for worse for richer or poorer in sickness and in health. If you were never married but made a commitment, if you really loved the person, the same applies.
How much should you be required to give or how long do you hang on to the hope that the love of your life will return? In my mind the answer is simple, how long would you want them to wait if the situation were reversed? They deserve at least that much time.
Now for those that walked away. Please don’t let pride stand in the way of what could be the best thing to ever happen to you. Consider how much the other person must love you to have fought for your return. Please don’t pass up the chance to be rejoined and happy again. The chance to see how the things you had dreamed of turn out. The chance to dream new dreams together and for life to be better than it has ever been before. I would beg of you to make the contact. Have no doubt that those who loved you before will love you again. By the time it’s gone this far the outcome may be up to you, Please ask. In many cases there will be no apologies expected no details to relive. In many cases a phone call or email that simply says something like I miss you ad want to come home will be more than enough.
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My H's story is very similar to OJ's. He was going through something in 2009 or longer, but started first with Seroquel XR after a bipolar diagnosis by the general practitioner (I know) in Jan 2010, within a month I think was then transferred to a psychiatrist and separate therapist who downgraded to generalized anxiety (H was scared of having a more serious illness - I think he lied to get it downgraded) and was put on I believe Celexa or something else I'm forgetting - but definitely did the Celexa for awhile and actually did well on it (other than digestive issues). Because of the issues he was switched to Lexapro, went off of it cold turkey within a month, all hell broke loose and life has never been the same, yadda yadda. It wasn't the cause, but I spoke with a PTSD specializing psychologist (happens to be a friend's mother) who believes the drugs, given at a time when he was not manic, threw him into mania. I suspect the FOO on the father's side has a B6 deficiency due to a lot of consistent chronic issues that lead back to that. If that's true, he naturally is not creating enough serotonin, and that is contributing to the depression and Monster. I also think there's a strong link to a dissociative fugue state, but I also think there's merit in looking at it psychologically through the Erikson/Conway/Jung MLC viewpoint. Maybe low T too? Can we just call it a hot mess? ::) ;D
But I answered "I don't know" because I don't since he is off in la la land. I do know he did better when just on B-complex, St. John's Wort, and briefly spring of 2012 when I talked him into trying L-Tyrosine.
You should not give SSRI's to bipolar sufferers without a MOOD STABILIZER. This is common knowledge. In fact many of the professors believe SSRI medication causes bipolar symptoms hence the explosion in Bipolar diagnosis since 1989 when these drugs were introduced. It is known that the original Prozac trials were conducted with tranquilizers to avoid mania but this was not revealed to the FDA .
St Johns wort can cause slight mania if mixed with alcohol and other drugs.
My W was on Celexa for anxiety for nearly three years following her mothers death. She was fine apart from stomach issues (90% of serotonin is in the digestive tract) until they upped them to 30mg to deal with her PMS. Her mania and her MLC started one month later. Can you see why I am so interested in the link. I have discovered many spouses in the same position following AD treatment and particularly updoses and withdrawal. It just sends the chemical soup in the brain into a frenzy and it is this chemical soup that makes us love and behave morally. I am telling all of you whose spouses have been involved with this medication that they have something to do with this. It is just to much of a coincidence and it fits our sitches.
I am not saying the MLC is not valid I am saying that the medications conduct all the changes in the brain to start the ball rolling. in fact they may duplicate the exact brain changes that someone feels in a natural MLC.
Interestingly they also produce the altered memory Syndrome. The brain has to create new memories to justify the chemical thoughts that have been forced. I believe Roseanne Barr is an example of this. She blamed her parents for abuse but when off her Prozac she rescinded the accusations and admitted the meds had created false memories. Sound familiar?? ;)
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Braincell
Do you believe that it just SSRIs that are not good?
What is your opinion of an alternative Anti Depressant such as LOFEPRAMINE?
Thx
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Have you visited this link yet? It was the first one I found, months before this forum. http://www.topix.com/forum/drug/effexor/TQ4I2UR28DFD3N759
Don't let the link title fool you - more is discussed there than just Effexor.
MLC is like the flu - the virus can be picked up from lots of different sources, but the illness is pretty much the same (though some are back on their feet in a few days without infecting the whole house, and others get pneumonia). For some of us, you can't take these medications out of the equation, because they are in the very least a contributing factor. Glad to see you posting here!
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Hi Braincell
Great discussion.
CT withdrawal will make someone turn manic and even the manufacturer of the drug advises against this.
Could you clarify what CT is? I presume some sort of meds. Different countries can have different names for these things.
There is no way of measuring serotonin in a living brain for a start. Also raising serotonin lowers dopamine which is the love hormone which bonds ccouples together. This happens over time as the brain tries to balance the imbalance caused by the nerds
Just wondering if you can expand on this a bit more - if there is no way of measuring serotonin, (and serotonin theory is being debunked by some researchers - I have read this too), how do they know that they are raising serotonin levels with the meds?
My H definitely had all of these symptoms BEFORE I convinced him to try St Johns Wort. (The emotional shutdown, the detachment, the wanting to run away, the high anxiety, episodes of mania, disinhibition, rage, reduced cognitive abilities). He kept saying there was nothing wrong with him and that he wouldn't be taking medication (huh?).
I eventually convinced him to try taking St Johns Wort. He took it for a couple of weeks and then refused, saying they were 'too strong'. It wasn't until later, that I learnt about the effect on the mania and the need for mood stabilisers.
From my research - antidepressants do not help a MLC, because of the dissociation and identity disorder that runs alongside it, but I know that you are coming at this from a different angle - and was this triggered by the meds for your wife.
This time of life seems to be such a hot mess as Ready2 said - there seems to be so many puzzle pieces and breaking point seems to be whatever the last straw was in the mix.
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Braincell
Do you believe that it just SSRIs that are not good?
What is your opinion of an alternative Anti Depressant such as LOFEPRAMINE?
Thx
Hi Jos
Lofepramine is a tryclicic antidepressant which works on the same principle but is older. It still keeps serotonin in the synapses for longer but in a different way. Research has shown this results in decreased seotonin in the long term as the brain closes down neurotransmitters in an attempt to reverse the effect of the drug. Different people will have different reactions and timescales hence the change and combinations of medicines that happen so often. It really is hit and miss.
You can get mania from Lofepramine and I would say it can cause the same effects as SSRI,s regarding dopamine down regulation.
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HI Kiki
CT Refers to cold turkey. You must taper very slowly off these as the brain needs to heal its neurotransmitters whilst the depleted NT,s remaining start to reabsorb serotinin as intented. This leads to depleted serotonin within the synapses. It is the constant changing of hormone levels that cause the mood and emotional problems rather than high or low serotonin.
The proof is right in front of us. There is a way to estimate serotonin increase by measuring the hormone level in the gut. As these hormones do not cross the blood brain barrier this is no real indication of hormone levels in the brain. They have of course tested in the lab using rats and monkeys. It is possible to cut open their live brain of course!
There was talk of a method being developed using a scan of some type but it had only been used on animals up to 2012 and i have seen no newer articles regarding this.
I ask myself how did they know my wifes level of serotonin when they prescribed the meds. She was just upset over her mother dying. They performed no tests and it is just a theory that low seratonin causes depression any how. With no starting rate how can they determine someone needs higher levels anyhow?
The drugs work on the sane principle as MDMA. They know MDMA fllods the brain with seratonin and makes people euphoric. They also know it causes brain damage long term. My W has been fed a watered down ecstacy pill for over three years. That has got to effect mood/decision making and bonding in my opinion!!
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Ah cold turkey - thanks for explaining. Yes absolutely, that is a very dangerous thing to do.
That's really interesting. I haven't heard about the measuring the hormonal level in the gut. Do you know which hormone/s they measure? If it different for men vs women?
How do these hormones relate to the serotonin level? Sorry for the million and one questions - keen to know.
The prescribing of drugs of many kinds is such a hit and miss process. Just about any article on antidepressants says that they really do not understand exactly how they work. And they keep it very quiet that it only seems to help some people. In my country (NZ) they are not as widely prescribed as they are in the US, and if so, they seem keen to get people off them reasonably quickly if possible (3-6mths)
Without a doubt, anyone that I know that has been on these meds says that they came off them because they were alarmed at the numbing of their emotions.
This seems to be the difference with people in crisis - whatever it is that they are doing, they just seem to carry on and find people to support and back up their way of thinking.
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Hi Kiki
They measure seratonin in the gut as 90% of the seratonin is in the gut. This is the reason why users get gastro issues. They then must just assume that the overal level must have rose. I think that they must use a scale possibly devised from animal research i would presume. Lets remember that no tests are carried out before they throw these drugs at people.
They really just get you mildly high which is fine for two months whilst going through bad times but not good after three years of constant drip feeding to the most complex part of your being. I mean its essentially your soul.....it controls who you are. It gets damaged and changed and the only improvements come with recovery after a while off the drugs.
Regarding the company they keep, most manic spouses affair down to other nut jobs or alcoholics etc. They attract each other like two drunks in a park and our mental well being just seems to push them away.
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They measure seratonin in the gut as 90% of the seratonin is in the gut. This is the reason why users get gastro issues. They then must just assume that the overal level must have rose. I think that they must use a scale possibly devised from animal research i would presume. Lets remember that no tests are carried out before they throw these drugs at people.
Oh wow - I had no idea that that was the measure that they used. Absolutely no way of knowing how much is actually absorbed and usable by the brain, as you say.
You are probably familiar with this psychiatrist - he has spent the past 20 years using brain tomography - he was originally vilified for it, but it seems to be becoming standard procedure.
As he points out - psychiatrists are the last medical specialists to take a 'best guess' without using actual diagnostic tools.
http://www.amenclinics.com/dr-amen/latest-news/item/do-antidepressants-do-more-harm-than-good
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Hi R2T
Yes I have been on the ssri thread and have posted quite frequently. These are the only two sites I bother with now. This site has such great advice on how to deal with the situation. Even though my problem is definitely driven by the SSRI, s it is still a MLC and the behaviours are identical.That is why I wanted the poll and I am startled by the results. They do offer further proof that this is a genuine factor.
I am not saying my W would not have had a natural MLC later on in life as she was a neglected child and had her mums early passing to deal with. What I do believe though is that it may not have ocurred but the meds had enough effect on her hormones to make damn certain of it.
There are plenty of stories of spouses returning to their previous personalities from 2-18 months after taking their last dose but the trick is to get them off the meds because feel bulletproof on them. Thats just another problem I am faced with!! Odds are the alienator is on them as well as users just seem to connect!
I will also say to the 8 who have voted no thus far..........I could well be wrong but quite a few spouses on the dedicated ssri thread were not aware their spouses were using them.........they found out later on. People do not always feel comfortable admitting to using AD,s and its easy to leave them at work. Its only 1 pill per day!
Would also be great to get some views from LBS who have used meds to help them through. Just your view of how it as affected your general emotions.
Thanks all for any info. I am like a dog with a bone with this subject at the moment >:(
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I understand what you are saying about the fact that we may not know about our spouse's SSRI intake, but I can pretty much 100% guarantee that my H is not taking anything. He has been offered them by his doctor, and other health care workers that I managed to encourage him to see in the first year.
He is terrified of taking them, and refused, saying it would stop his creativity. (it is how he earns his money).
Another thing to consider - is the common denominator the depression that over-rides the crisis? And the medication is secondary to that? I know for your wife it was her tipping point once she took the meds, but for those of us who saw the tipping point without the meds - we know it is a potential too.
It's another of those eternal chicken or egg questions that go around and around in our minds, and we will never have definite proof of.
My sister took 6mths of SSRI's for post natal depression. She firmly believes that she would never have managed to pull through it without their help. She feels it enabled her head to clear enough that she could start exercising and do the therapy that set her on the path of healing.
Not discounting your experience and point of view at all - just something else to consider, and that you won't ever find definitive proof either way.
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Hi Kiki
I agree that in some cases a short while on the drugs may be beneficial as is the case with your sister. The dopamine down regulation and the damage to the Neurotransmitters occur after long term use and my W was on them for 3.5 years and counting.
The slow insidious decline of emotional bonding occurs over this period which is very similar to the initial withdrawal of a MLCer before BD. By time BD has arrived my W had gradualy distanced herself from me over a 4 month period. It happened in waves of emotions. One week she was in love another week starting arguments over such silly things. A prime example. Whilst we were on holiday we had one minor blowup. I had got up early every morning with D3 to allow my W to have a lay in.I cooked daughter sausages and eggs and was about to take her to the pool as I had done every morning. My W got up as I was leaving and proceeded to lay into me for not cooking her sausages and eggs. It was like a tantrum from my D15. I did not react apologised and went swimming. By the time I had returned my Wife apologised and spent the rest of the day in love again. This is a little snapshot of the 4 months i endured after her meds were raised and before BD. As the 4 months progressed the mood swings were more pronounced.
Now another point to consider is that my W was prescribed the Meds for anxiety following her mums death and not depression.
Her updose was for PMS symptoms which worsened after her original prescription and guess what one of the side effects are.................irregular periods and mood swings. They used the medication that caused it to treat it ???.
She had grief, not depression and they never tested her hormone or serotonin level once yet just threw pills at her which changed her from a a sweet, loving, wonderful women to a selfish , cruel and heartless women. She was fine at the 6 month mark. That is when she should have been weaned off but UK doctors just issue prescriptions without even seeing the patient.
Until she had the updose things were getting better and better. Our relationship in March of this year was the best it had ever been. Even she said that and we were both so excited for the future. The only single thing that changed between March and April.............the pills were upped and that is why I know along with other anecdotal evidence that the Meds induced my wifes MLC.
By the way the pills over time also reduce the oxyticin (not sure of the spelling) which is the chemical designed to bond couples together and is produced after sex. It is linked to Dopamine regulation and explains why the majority of SSRI users suffer sexual dysfunction. I also recall looking back that my wife who was also a very cuddly person ( I do not mean fat!) declined more and more over them 4 months when I used to offer a cuddle on the sofa. She started to say lets wait until bed and of course we would then have sex.
Interestingly the low dopamine reduces the reward feelings from affection such as cuddling but it does not stop lust....this is why my relationship turned very sexual in the last 4 months but emotionally we were drifting . Too many coincidences, it fits to well. I appreciate not all MLC are caused by this but mine certainly was.
Now if I can just get her off them damn pills!! ;)
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Right guys and girls. I have 26 votes and I know this is a lot more of you than that!
I do not want to get all North Korean on you but if you do not vote you will be tracked down, taken from your beds at night and tortured in the woods. I do not resort to kidnap lightly but this may be an important issue. I dont require comments although they are always nice!
Also if there is any doubt whatsoever then vote do not know because as you know truthfulness and MLCers very rarely mix!
;D
Thanks all and sorry for keep bugging I just really believe this is an important issue for some of us and it may even speed up recovery for some of us. I do believe some cases are SSRI driven and by removing the meds you may well be removing the replay element. The stages still mirror each other but that does not mean the length is consistent. The success stories with SSRI crisis normally occur 3-18 months after the meds stop. I will take that all day long if possible!!!
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The longest I have found in my research (and this is not to rain on your parade, because it is rare), was a female lawyer who went off of Lexapro I think cold turkey, and it was around 4 years for her from start to finish. Lost her marriage (obviously he wasn't a stander) and pretty much everything else. Said she tried cases and won them, but had no recollection of doing it! I'll dig out the link and post it, just need to find it again. Luckily, just like with MLC, few rarely get "stuck in the tunnel" for life, from what I've read, and the long end is not unlike it is for MLC. Standing actions are mostly the same. For some of us where it's obvious this was at least a factor, that can bring peace in the storm.
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I have to comment here about my own personal experience. I believe that I started a mid-life transition in 2011. I was just very anxious, very angry and I had no filter on my mouth. At one point, my h told me that I needed to go to the doctor. I knew that I did, so I went and the doctor put me on Prozac. Talk about fog city! I was literally walking around in a fog. I had no desire to do anything...except cry. My libido hit the floor. Then BD came when H told me ILBINILWY (Sept. 2012). I went back to the doctor told him that I needed to get off the Prozac because I needed to be present in my marriage in all aspects (little did I know at that point). So we changed it from Prozac to Wellbutrin, and let me tell ya, night and day! The fog lifted and my head was clear! Then I find out about Voldemort this May. The anxiety and panic was really getting to me, so I went to my doctor and we upped the amount of the Wellbutrin and it has certainly helped with the anxiety and panic feelings. I go back to the doctor in January, and I am going to recommend that we start to lower the Wellburtrin because I would eventually like to get off of it all together. However, I am not going cold turkey. I would be a certifiable nut-job then! And I know that my H isn't taking any such meds because he thinks he is just fine. Whatever.....
CT 8)
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Hi CT -Wellbrutin is a SRNI which works on preventing mainly Dopamine from being reabsorbed. It is given to patients who may suffer sexual dysfunction on SSRI,s. As dopamine is the love chemical it does not really have the same anti bonding effect as an SSRI like prozac. I would encourage you to taper off though as any clinical test only lasts 12 weeks so long term effects are truly unknown.
Imagine being in that Prozac fog for over 3 years. Do you think it could be detrimental to a marriage? I have never taken AD, s but I have seen my wife transform into a coldhearted sociopath on them.
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Seeing as I have only recently started to have nights were I sleep right through, I thought I would respond before Braincell interrupted my new routine!
H is very much against taking anti-depressants so I am pretty sure he hasn't taken any. I had tried to get him to take St Johns Wort before he left, he tried for a while, sporadically though.
I, on the other hand, have been on Zoloft for the past 14 years or so. It was given to me for agoraphobia/anxiety and it did help. The dosage was increased later to 150mg/day. About five years ago I decided to reduce the dosage to 100mg and made a few stupid decisions ( left job) but as I look back, this is when I did start to push H away, got snappy, irritable, etc. after a while I did go back to the 150mg dosage but the attitude didnt change too much if I'm honest.
Earlier this year, with the agreement of my doctor, I reduced the dosage back to 100mg. No bad changes in attitude this time. Now I'm not sure if that original change was due to the reduction or whether it would have happened anyway. Or is my head and attitude better this time around? Who knows?
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Braincell: I plan on talking with my doctor when I go in January. I just want to get off of them for good. I will say that the Wellbutrin has definitely helped me deal with the anxiety and panic attacks I was experiencing the first couple of months after Mr. CT left. But every day I get a little bit stronger, and I feel a lot better about ME. So I will discuss tapering off of them when I see my doctor next month.
Thanks for the encouragement!! :)
CT
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I, on the other hand, have been on Zoloft for the past 14 years or so. It was given to me for agoraphobia/anxiety and it did help. The dosage was increased later to 150mg/day. About five years ago I decided to reduce the dosage to 100mg and made a few stupid decisions ( left job) but as I look back, this is when I did start to push H away, got snappy, irritable, etc. after a while I did go back to the 150mg dosage but the attitude didnt change too much if I'm honest.
Earlier this year, with the agreement of my doctor, I reduced the dosage back to 100mg. No bad changes in attitude this time. Now I'm not sure if that original change was due to the reduction or whether it would have happened anyway. Or is my head and attitude better this time around? Who knows?
Interesting......the change in attitude when you dropped dosage is telling here. When you taper it should only be 10% of your dose which you should hold for 6 weeks to allow your brain to heal in line with the decreased serotonin that remains in the synapse. The doctors never tell you this as they go on the information given by the pharma companies. These are the same Pharma companies who did not even admit to a withdrawal problem until complaints to the FDA etc forced them to do this. They call it discontinuation syndrome because that sounds better than withdrawal. Now the pharma companies do not mind people weaning off to quickly as they then go back to their doctors and are told that they are having reoccuring symptoms and get prescribed......... more Zoloft!!
Problem is that if the lower dose has been more than a month , very often the reinstatement leads to a kindling effect. The brain has just started to repair from the reduced dose and then more of the original just leads to the start up problems again in conjunction with the withdrawal problems from reducing the dose. The Central Nervous system is affected and above all the brain is on a rollercoaster ride just as us LBS are!!! That is why your reinstatement did not bring you back to the previous mood. You see, I will say it again, the fluctuating moods are caused by variation in the hormone levels not whether they are high or low. Now you are feeling better on the lower dose. This MAY be that your brain is closer to normality as it started to heal before you updosed again.
Did your doctor test your serotonin level before prescribing Zoloft....i would guess not and if not how did he know your levels were low?? We are all chemical soup and our normal levels are all slightly different but the undrugged normal levels are what makes us who we are. We may be confident, anxious, shy. That is who we are. A drunk who is loud and obnoxious but quiet and reserved when sober is quiet and reserved. The alcohol makes him brash and that is an illusion. Alcohol also effects serotonin which is why you are advised not to drink on AD,s.........but they all do which leads to even more outlandish behaviour. :o
I understand that initially the meds make people feel better. I used to party when I was young and I have experimented with recreational drugs. I took ecstacy and have tried other amphetamines. Not for a very long time though I have to add!!!
Yes they make you high without a care in the world. Until you come down and then your problems are still there as well as the comedown. Zoloft and other SSRIs work on the same principle but are watered down. Difference is that you take them everyday for long periods and they damage and change parts of your brain. This is totally reversible but only stopping them allows this to happen. Luckily the brains ability to repair and balance itself is pretty damn good. Not when drugs keep getting added to the mix though!
Some people can take them for years and have very little damaging effect.......but them some people can smoke 60 a day and live until 80. Others smoke 10 a day and get lung cancer at 30. In just the same way SSRIs make some people manic almost immediately. Others are OK until the dose is changed. Some can separate their mood swings from reality as they know it is the meds. Others get carried away by the emotional numbing and hedonistic thoughts the meds can harvest. My W is one of these unfortunately. ::)
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Braincell: I plan on talking with my doctor when I go in January. I just want to get off of them for good. I will say that the Wellbutrin has definitely helped me deal with the anxiety and panic attacks I was experiencing the first couple of months after Mr. CT left. But every day I get a little bit stronger, and I feel a lot better about ME. So I will discuss tapering off of them when I see my doctor next month.
Thanks for the encouragement!! :)
CT
Trust me you will feel better off them. You may find that you start missing Mr CT a little more but that is because you do miss him!!
I know its hard to fanthom when you are on the meds but the reason you feel better about you and probably care a little less about Mr CT is the emotional numbing and the amphetamine feeling of the drug. This is not a reason to remain on them though as just like our MLCers we need to face this journey as ourselves. If you were drinking everyday to numb the pain you would be correct in thinking that you are self medicating and it was not the answer. The meds are really no different. Just because the pills are prescribed by a doctor does not mean its not the same. Methadone is prescribed by doctors. Does not mean it is the right way to get over heroin addiction. Its a crutch. You are obviously a strong intelligent women and your natural brain is more than sufficient to see you through this.
I find talking this through with a clear sober mind , on this forum or even a therapist is the best way to deal with this. When I have had spells where I drink or foolishly shared some weed with a friend recently it gave short term relief but the problem was still there and felt even worse when i sobered up.
I know it sounds like I am preaching and I do not expect you to agree with my humble opinion but I hate these meds and what they have done not just to my W but others who I know take them. You do what you need to do to get through this but if you can do it as you it I think the outcome will be better for all parties involved.
x
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The longest I have found in my research (and this is not to rain on your parade, because it is rare), was a female lawyer who went off of Lexapro I think cold turkey, and it was around 4 years for her from start to finish. Lost her marriage (obviously he wasn't a stander) and pretty much everything else. Said she tried cases and won them, but had no recollection of doing it! I'll dig out the link and post it, just need to find it again. Luckily, just like with MLC, few rarely get "stuck in the tunnel" for life, from what I've read, and the long end is not unlike it is for MLC. Standing actions are mostly the same. For some of us where it's obvious this was at least a factor, that can bring peace in the storm.
RT2
I agree , standing actions are the same. It is really the same sh*t , different brand!!
I spent the first 4.5 months being there, lifting her to work, she even used me for sex!! Reasons i done this......pave the way and to educate her about what the meds had done to her. It did not work due to the spell binding effect of the drugs but I did call her doctor and she is weaning off the meds. She is weaning off but to quickly and as expected her behaviour in withdrawal worsened. The alienator appeared for a start!! I have noted that her moods seem to go in 6 week cycles. 6 Weeks after starting to wean we had a touch and go which lasted nearly two weeks including sex and inviting me to stay for sunday lunch
Then went very cold and circled away to dating and the alienator. Another 6 weeks has passed and she has started to call. 4 times already this week about BS when up to this point I was getting short blunt text messages. The waves and windows of withdrawal is something I have studied and she may be following the script.
It is still a long drawn out process and the standing actions on this wonderful site work whether it be natural MLC or an SSRI crisis. I am also more than aware that the SSRI,s have just initiated a genuine MLC but am convinced from anecdotal evidence stretching back to 2007 on the SSRI thread that once the SSRI is removed from the mix most cases see an end to the replay stage of the crisis as the energy source is removed. Then it is around 18 months which is the liminality and the rebirth stage.
I know i sound like a conspiracy theorist but I have enough evidence from real people and Professors of psychiatry to trust their and my knowledge over the simple GP's or MD's that just farm these out without knowing sh*t about them.
If i have trouble with my tooth I go to the dentist......If I am having mental issues I would go to a therapist. A GP is not qualified enough in mental health to start giving me mind altering drugs without even testing my levels. It is slap dash and is ruining families across the world.
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Braincell, this is very interesting......!
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A question Braincell from the other side: I am the one on serotonin antagonist and reuptake inhibitor (SARI) class med (Trazodone) provided by the psychiatrist in small (1/2) dose primarily for its hypnotic effects to restore some sleep and secondary for its anxiolytic ones. Sleep is restored and I am now fully functional. My W was against it as she said it made me more angry which is absolutely not true. I felt far more angry before it took action. In contrast I believe it made her angry because I was less responsive to her drama. In that sense it helped me a lot to detach.
Now the psychiatrist suggests to increase it to normal dose but I am a bit sceptic because a) I am in principle against drugs unless necessary (sleeping poorly for days was slowly destroying me) b) at a certain point you need to try to stop rely on them so that your organism takes over. I must say it did not have any other obvious side effects and libido is not influenced at all.Do you have an opinion on the specific class of meds?
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Braincell: I appreciate your insight into all of this and I do not think you were preaching at all! I have been telling myself that I need to get off of the meds anyway. I want to feel better without the help of the meds. I have been working out and I know that has a lot to do with how I am feeling, hence the talk I want to have with my doctor. Thank you again for your insight and knowledge on this topic! I find it very interesting!!
CT 8)
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K
A question Braincell from the other side: I am the one on serotonin antagonist and reuptake inhibitor (SARI) class med (Trazodone) provided by the psychiatrist in small (1/2) dose primarily for its hypnotic effects to restore some sleep and secondary for its anxiolytic ones. Sleep is restored and I am now fully functional. My W was against it as she said it made me more angry which is absolutely not true. I felt far more angry before it took action. In contrast I believe it made her angry because I was less responsive to her drama. In that sense it helped me a lot to detach. I
Now the psychiatrist suggests to increase it to normal dose but I am a bit sceptic because a) I am in principle against drugs unless necessary (sleeping poorly for days was slowly destroying me) b) at a certain point you need to try to stop rely on them so that your organism takes over. I must say it did not have any other obvious side effects and libido is not influenced at all.Do you have an opinion on the specific class of meds?
Hi mate
Serotonin antagonist and reuptake inhibitor or SARI,s act in two ways. They prevent the reuptake of serotonin like a standard SSRI but they also prevent serotonin from binding to the cell receptors.
I think if your comfortable on your present dose why go up in dose? If you need to go up in dose then that must mean that you are getting resistant to your present dose. The only way is up.
The other reason is the therapist wants some more commission by doubling your dose!!
On a serious note I personally believe long term use can cause damage and that includes SARI,s. They still mess with the balance of neurotransmitters in much the same way as street drugs and even the experts can not really say how they work (I swear to god this is true, they only have theories) so how can they know what the long term effects are.
I think the sleeping element must be caused by the serotonin not binding to the receptors as an SSRI merely prevents reuptake and certainly does not act as a sleep aid.
I will look into this. There are quite a few accounts of mania caused by Trazodone so it has got the ability to go the other way.
Really that should tell you all you need to know about these meds. They send you to sleep but send others manic. Same medication so why?...........because everyone has different hormone levels to start with.
I think you should taper off if possible and maybe try to use exercise to tire yourself out. I have bunked off the gym this month so am in no position to question your exercise regime but I know it helps me and I have really noticed the downturn in my sleeping and my mood these last three weeks.
Research about them and you wil get an understanding of the dark side of the whole pharma industry. Google Trazodone Mania and people such as David Healey, Helen Fisher or Peter Breggin. Ben Goldacre is now causing a ripple exposing the farcical clinical testing procedure. To obtain licensing you can just withold the bad results produce a few studies showing a generally positive outcome over a period of maximum 12 weeks.
GP,s then allow someone to be prescribed them for three years without ever running a three year clinical test for safety............oh yeah and they are not REALLY sure how they work either but they worked alright in about 38% of the clinical trial subjects so yeah go ahead take it.
Not for me thanks.........Sorry everyone rant over. Orion come off them dude. Your strong enough to sort it on your own thats why your on this forum searching for knowledge and understanding. I know it hurts like hell but you know what thats natural and our minds have a way of sorting themselves by expressing and processing information. We do nit need drugs to do that.
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I think if your comfortable on your present dose why go up in dose? If you need to go up in dose then that must mean that you are getting resistant to your present dose. The only way is up.
Thanks for the info Braincell. You confirmed my worries. I followed the psychiatrist advice to increase it to see more its anxiolytic effects. She also said that half dose considering that I am a big guy shouldn't be a problem, but I see no reason to continue relying on this. I do not think she does it for commission -it's a very cheap generic drug.
The other thing she told me is that there is a delay of a couple of weeks for the drug to take full effect. So maybe I will give it a try until the end of holidays and then discuss with her a plan to gradually diminish the dose and eventually stop it.
thanks again and take care,
Orion
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Very interesting thread. Here's my story. My h has never taken AD before his MLC. He won't even take his cholesterol meds. I on the other hand have been on Wellbutrin for many years after having my own major depressive episode. I immediately felt more in control of my emotions and came out of the fog. Maybe I would have anyway without the meds. I was tapering off, but my neurologist is keeping me on it because of migraines. I've been diagnosed hypothyroid and have been on meds for that for a year. Night and day! Once I went on synthroid my migraines and depression disappeared and my libido went thru the roof! Unfortunately, my h isn't around to enjoy ;). Convinced my h to get his thyroid checked and his levels were supposedly normal. More than one test is usually needed, though.
Still plan to taper off Wellbutrin, but I must admit that it has been helpful. My h said he took my Wellbutrin for a few weeks when I was gone this summer. This was after BD. He said it didn't do anything for him except give him headaches and lowered his libido. Good! But that's not a side effect of Wellbutrin. I've been trying to get him to go on AD and seek help, but after reading this thread, I'm not going to encourage him anymore.
Thanks for the info!
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MM
Welbutrin is actually given to counter the libido issue that many SSRIs cause so in theory it should not effect emotions as deeply as other SSRIs. Imo Celexa, paxil and effexor are the worst for emotional blunting. This is what leads to relationship problems. I believe welbutrin works on dopamine levels so used for a short time it should not numb emotions. Long term use will screw your head up though. I would advise to keep H away from ssris as they will not assist recovery. Numbing the emotions would slow down progression for most imo.
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Hi All!
I am quite sure Genius never took AD or mood pills or herbals. Heavens he shouted like a man who had had his winkey ;D cut off when I suggested he take some vitamins and perhaps see the doctor about his male :-[ issue! Or should I say lack of male issue for the record.
I find this thread interesting but to be the bare beginnings of research.Perhaps for some of you the AD timing is a relevant factor in the crisis. However, being a lawyer and a former medical worker I am loathe to read about anyone giving advice to others concerning adjusting or stopping their medication. I am of the opinion old school though it may be, that decisions such as that should only be decided in consultation with medical supervision.
That said, I would like to share with you all my thoughts and experiences on medication and the end of a MLC. Now please bear in mind I am only speaking to the stage of Depression and later.
As some of you know I am going through that with J. He elected to get help. For those of you who have not experienced that stage, it is horrific. I cringe when I read other posters who think their partner is entering that stage. I can tell the good majority of then it is not so because the nightmare is not there. It is not just depression but DEPRESSION. The person doesn't function, thinks about and plans ways to kill himself. It is thought through to the minutest detail. There is no up time and virtually no anger. They may replay certain sad songs over and over, while crying. They are exhausted, sleep or try to as much as possible, have no interest in activities of daily living, sleep only minutes at a time before being up again tossing and turning, not have feelings or care for almost anything. J did not have the energy or desire to even go to the store for pet food. I literally tossed him out of bed and forced him bodily to take care of that. Same with work. I dressed and undressed him many times. I got him out of bed daily, picked fights, forced him to go. "You made the child now get up! She needs her child support! If I have to come in here one more time I will pick up the mattress and throw you onto the floor!" I took over almost all his household duties as he was still at his own apartment. He showered only when I demanded or dumped water on him.
By the end of a few weeks of the above, his anxiety was making him physically sick. He had a plan and collected the necessary tools to kill himself. He was serious. I involved his mother, his siblings, his ex-wife and children. I was fully prepared to have him institutionalized. He had the choice. He ended up going to the doctor of his own choosing. The doctor put him on AD and they were a God send. Within a short time he was a different person, willing to do the work he needed to heal. I believe without them he would be dead.
And YES he is and has been able to do the work on himself. He can feel and understand. He has made significant progress on rebuilding himself and his life all while taking AD.
I do not wish to argue with you, Braincell, but I find the comments about being strong enough to sort on your own to be a bit offensive. I believe you probably mean those to be encouraging, but it is actually a strength in my opinion to know when you need medical help and seek it.
Again, my thoughts only go towards the later stages and I have no experience with a MLCer taking them at other stages or prior to BD.
I believe in Heart's Blessing's writing she also states "Some are in so much pain, they commit suicide, some get smart and get anti-depressants to help them begin to clear their thinking processes, some suffer in silence, thinking nobody understands them or will understand what they are going through-and so it goes on. Thoughts?
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Hi LP
I have no problem with short term use to get over a bad spell. 3 to 6 months max. After that they are harmful. I have discussed with mental health workers and they are off the same opinion.
I do not agree with the imbalance theory and I do not believe drugs should be the answer to depression. Exercise therapy and diet are just as beneficial and I stand by my theory that the healing should come from within and drugs just mask the problem.
Winston Churchill suffered from severe depression. He managed to survive without SSRIs.
Mark my words, in 20 years time they will look back at the ssri era and think how barbaric it was. I have researched this in depth and there are many studies by respected professors to back my opinion.
I am afraid AD,s are in many cases the easy way out, its a form of running just as replay is. I am glad your H benefitted but if you do not believe there are many more who have had their lives ruined by these check out paxilprogress.com. Very sobering.
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Hey,
I am going to have to disagree about the use of ad's and it being an easy way out.
I suffered with ptsd and all the trimmings for almost 10 years. My behaviour could have been compared to that of a mlcer.
In my case, I absolutely needed the ad's to get me started with the more natural ways to combat depression.
It takes a lot of courage for someone in crisis to seek help.Not just courage but clarity in thinking, too. That does not come easy, it comes when it does. Clarity of thinking during depression is almost obsolete.
It is only in moments of great despair that it might appear. It goes one way or the other, it raises you up or it can break you even more.
And so yes, we run, but sometimes, we run forward, too, and if the support is there, that helps a lot! Without support and love, it's much harder.
I would praise anybody seeking help within the medical world.
I am on ad's now, mild ones, but they do help me and I won't stop taking them until I feel my life is sorted, and I work hard at that.
I have come a very long way. And yes I exercised the whole time, too, still do, eat well etc...but it doesn't erase the bad memories.
Ad's in addition to medical suport, mental and physical, are a great lift!
So it may poison our body and mind. So does depression and more devastatingly so.
Depression kills. You hear the stories: father went mad killed entire family then himself. Girl jumps in front a train. Woman kills her h during a fight as he went to kill her first.
If a tiny little tablet can help with any of that? I think that is absolutely marvellous!
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Bb
Ptsd is a lot different than anxiety. My W was given ssris for anxiety. It not only removed her anxiety but also her morals. If your loved one went manic on ssris as mine did I do not believe you would think they were marvelous. I have been depressed Since Bd. Therapyand self awareness are far more beneficial. Just read the research on long term effects of ssris and not the pharma sponsored research. Read ssri stories. I think they are the easy way out but they cause long term damage. I do not blame people who take them as they are sold them by the doc. The docs are sold them by big pharma. Anything that you need to be weaned off and that changes the function of your brain is something that should be avoided long term in my opinion. I think people who are using them do have a different opinion. Read Peter breggin research on medication spellbinding and this may explain why. My cousin is on the board at the charity mind. He knows a thing or two about mental health. When he found out his mother was on ssris following his fathers death he went around there and threw them away. Says it all in my opinion. Ecstacy is a little pill that makes you happy. Does not mean You should take it everyday.
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For those LBS taking medication to help you have you noticed an emotional disconnect from your partner shortly after treatment has started?
I went on Lexapro (SSRI) about a couple months ago after discussing various symptoms with my therapist and MD. I suffer from Hyper Anxiety and apparently a long-term form of PTSD from all my military related combat experience. The Hyper Anxiety is a side symptom from another chemical imbalance I was diagnosed with as a child.
The first week I was on it, I was pretty calm, but felt really weird; like I could tell I was doped up on something. After about 2 weeks, this euphoric feeling went away. I am A LOT calmer now. I use to worry about all things in my life and my mind would be constantly working to the point I couldn't sleep or function at times. My attention & focus suffered. Since I have been on the meds, I can focus 100% on current tasks and I don't sweat the small stuff anymore including when it comes to the current relationship issues.
As far as emotional disconnect; I wouldn't say I am disconnected. What it has done for me is allow me to "blow off" negative emotions; I don't let things she does or say get to me anymore. It basically helped me detach from the emotional roller coaster. I do still maintain my good feelings and on those days where she wants my attention / affection, I am able to do that and still not get upset when she pulls away. This has allowed me to do all the things preached on this site and others by giving space, GALing, etc.
As far as Physical issues, Only two so far. I have experienced some sleeplessness periodically. As far as sexual dysfunction, a couple of things: 1) slight drop in libido; I don't "crave" it like I use to and have no desire to initiate but she can get me aroused and in the mood. 2) Although I can function, there is at least a 50% chance that I can't "make it to the finish line" which of course pisses her off, but oh well...LOL!
Also raising serotonin lowers dopamine which is the love hormone which bonds couples together.
I have read about this and was under the impression that Oxytocin was the love / bonding hormone. I believe you mention this later in the thread. Interestingly, from what I have read, Women have 10 times more Oxytocin in their brains than men which may be the reason it takes men longer to connect emotionally. Women's Oxytocin seems to be driven more by conversation for connecting where men get huge amounts of Oxytocin release during sexual fulfillment. This appears to be why most men feel completely connected / bonded immediately after sexual intimacy and for most women, physical intimcay is the outcome of being connected / bonded.
-OneByOne-
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Hi, again, Braincell :)
I too did my research before deciding to go for 'the easy way out' of depression through Ad's, but seeing as anxiety was my major symptom - I'm talking about attacks lasting anything from 10 minutes to 9 hours (that was my highest record) .
I had to seek help. All the exercise I did: dog waljing 1 hour+, spinning:1:30 every day did not alter my way of thinking. It did not make one blind bit of difference, sure I became lean, more energetic and more confident about myself but it just wasn't enough.
It did not stop the 'nagging, nasty thoughts' in their track.
That's what I needed help with. All the self help book in the world (and I read many and applied the advice and exercises), the counselling I received, group therapy did not help with my negative thinking.
I understood how it coukd all work, but it just didn't.
My doc kept me off the ad's for as long as he could.
It was my choice, I asked for them.
He still wouldn't. I think to him, I was a bit of a project to be honest. He even said to me back then: You are one of my most intelligent patient with so much going for you, I cannot give up on you as you never give up yourself.
So he put me on betta blockers instead. Didn't work.
I gave up smoking, gave up caffeine and sweets. After a year, still no noticeable improvement except that my attacks were a bit more sparse although still long lasting and still kept me pretty much housebound.
After a couple of years of trying anything I could to help myself, I was getting highly frustrated with it all, which did not help matters.
So I demanded to be put on ad's.
Well, the worst side effect I had from them was reoetitive and intense yawning. My jaws were aching from it! Yet, I didn't feel tired.
Anyway, since then I have kost more weight, gained a real lust for life, sex, fun, friendships. My positivity came back out of the blue, I was going out with friends again, going on holidays, shopping etc..,
Life was good again!
My relationship with my kids is awesome! My dogs also benefitted, my friends and most importantly my nasty, nagging thoughts were being buried by my positive thinking.
So yes, the ad's altered my thinking, and in a very good way!
Maybe I am a bit of an exception, who knows? Who cares? It worked.
It wasn't an easy way out, it was an easy in! In towards the real me! I was me again, the me who was fine before ptsd came to haunt me to the point of almost no return.
I chose life, not death. Does that make me a coward taking the easy way out? No! It does not!
What I was enduring was horrific. Ad's helped me save me.
Please do not assume that we are all so gullible to believe that there aren't alternatives to ad's. Sometimes they really are a last result.
A bit like epidurals or laughing gas are to a woman about to give birth, call it an easy way out if you wish (I gave birth naturally twice myself), but until you have experienced the agony yourself, your opinion will not count. No uterus, no opinion (to quote Rachel Green-Friends).
Until you find yourself in that pit of depression and anxiety I do not believe you can fully understand just how strong bad thoughts and feelings can destroy you and those around you,
When you realise what your depression does to others, two ways of thinking come to the fore of the mind.
The easy way out and the harder way out;:
Easy: suicide
Hard: get help and get sorted.
Some make the right choice, like I did.
And not because I was misinformed, gullible nor brainwashed, but because I had tried everything else.
Funny you should talk of ecstasy: I used to use drugs in a recreational way: ecstasy, marijuanna, cocaine, lsd....mainly to escape and avoid. It's true and whilst on the high, they worked! But the come downs? Doesn't bare thinkng about,
No come downs with ad's.
Not even after being wheaned (can't spell that sorry, French moment here) off them. I was on and off them a few times btw.
Ptsd and anxiety go hand in hand, as I said anxiety was my main symptom, the other was flashbacks of my horrific ordeal,
Gone, all gone! Do you know what that means to me?
I really appreciate what you are saying and admire your zeal where trying to help people with the knowledge you have seeked and aquired, however, encouraging people to go against what their physician/psychiatrist are ordonning them to do to help themselves, is not something I would like to be responsible for. Just like I wouldn't to be responsible for guiding them towards pharmaceuticals.
Muddy waters here!
I am really sorry about your wife, but Braincell, your wife anxiety came from somewhere. Mlc, tablets or not, mlc was already there....probably...or some form of crisis anyway. It was just a long time coming.
Blaming the ad's or anything else won't make a difference.
I wanted to vote on the poll but none of it applied to my h.
15 months into mlc, he started to take herbal anti-depressants, used by tribes in South Africa-sorry can't recall the name right now.
That is all I know of where my h is concerned.
He was, however, a few months oreviously and for about 6 months, addicted to the pain killer Tramadol. That's now gone. Thank god!
I enjoy reading your posts, I must say, and I hope this discussion keeps on going. It's been great help to me, thank you.
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My H and I are on AD's . I am not sure what he is on but I am taking an SSRI.
It was not a choice that I made lightly , but after a couple of months after BD I felt out of control . I could not control my anger , I had thoughts of ending it all . I could barely make it from one day to the next and being the type of person I am I could not carry on like that . I had started seeing a counsellor and when I told her I had decided to go on AD's she said I had mae a big step in realising that I needed help . She did not recommend them but could see that in my case they could help .
I had some issues for the first couple of weeks , I think I had hit such a low that the effect of the tablets felt like a huge head rush, I stuck with them and I am glad I did . They did not solve my problems they just enabled me to deal with day to day life and get my self on more of an even keel so that my counselling could start to help me . They certainly did not block my feelings , I could still feel pain and love .
My H was dead against taking them , but after another breakdown I think his counsellor suggested it , H shows some signs of bi polar and always has done, but I am not sure his GP would have picked up in that partly because at the time H was blaming his depression on my and our marriage . Because of this taking them made him quite manic , they had the opposite effect he started making more rash decisions and felt that he was all better after a few weeks . This was bck in September , he now says that the tablets make him see the negative in anything but my honest opion is that he is still looking for things to blame for his unhappiness.
I dont think that taking them is the easy way out , I think you could look at it the other way and say that you are making a choice because you have tried everything else and you want to try and feel better.
This is just my opinion but I do think that how effective they are can depend on the person and them wanting to feel better , I hated feeling like I did I wanted to start living again , my H is still walowing in self pity and blaming everything under the sun for his unhappiness .
There is no right or wrong with this but I feel that if you can take something to help you recover from such an awful event , that can maybe start to help you rebuild then I am all for it .
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Thanks for all your feedback. I guess it does depend on each person. Some people go manic and make irrational decisions on SSRI's, others do not.
One by One, Oxyticin is the hormone produced after sex, it also reinforces the bonding.However, I believe it is possible to bond with someone before sex . Dopamine is what gives that nice feeling when you have a cuddle with someone, its that feeling you get when you start to fall in love and a dopamine hit is produced when you share good times with your long term partner. Long term SSRI use depletes dopamine. There is good research by Professor Helen Fisher on this. When the dopamine levels drop and our partners are with OM/OW there is a dopamine hit as it is a new experience. They mistake this for love.
When the newness wears off they will often realise its not love. By then it is very often too late, the damage to the LBS is to much.
Please be assured I am not criticising anyone for taking AD's and as I have said many times they can be used for 6 months max to help people through tough times such as BD. They DO cause damage long term as the brain adapts to the restriction of serotonin reuptake. There is research on Baboons where they tested the Neurotransmitters after giving them SSRI's. The brain had closed down transmitters as it adapted to the excess serotonin. In some cases the transmitters were still damaged 7 years later.
90% of serotonin is in the gut and genitals. This is what causes sexual dysfunction and digestive problems for some.
As far as withdrawal, this is often mistaken for a relapse and people are put back on SSRI's.
Do i trust a GP with prescribing these.......No. There is no test for serotonin levels in the brain so I will not allow someone to give me something for a condition that they have guessed.
My Wife was on a low dose for 3 years following her mothers death. She was telling me how madly in love she was and was often telling me how she was so happy just 4 months before BD. 3 months before BD she was given a higher dose for PMS. Within one month she was walking around with wild amphetamine like eyes, within two months she was saying she was going on a journey and disconnecting with the children. (She is now trying to give the eldest daughter to me as she can not be bothered with her) Then we had BD where she said she wanted to be a $l()t and screw other guys.
All after her updose...........coincidence, No way. There may well have been an MLC brewing, who knows.
There was a site on TOPIX called marriages destroyed by SSRI's. 16,000 posts from left behind spouses and SSRI users who had come off the drugs and could not believe their behaviour whilst on SSRI's. When they ceased the drugs many regained their feelings and were trying to reconcile. The site was taken down last week but I believe a new one has started.
Do not think these pills are just harmless little pills. If they were you could get them over the counter.
Even the literature that comes with them warns family and carers against sudden character changes. There is a reason for that.
My wife went manic on them and my happy family has been ripped apart by them. I would gladly ram these pills down the throat of every executive at glaxosmithkline and forest labs and see how long the majority of their marriages last. I WILL advise people to come of them and feel no remorse in saying so.
I believe one of you said your doctor did not want you to have them. Sounds like one of the better ones to me. My W doctor did not even know you could go manic on them and also said its fine for her to drink on them. Goes against what the literature says but there you go.
I have had days when I have thought about ending it since this crap has happened. Believe me when I tell you I went through stages of not being able to get out of bed, my whole life has been
destroyed. I have not self medicated, took AD's or anything like that. I have just suffered horribly for 6 months but can feel myself coming out of it. Its grief, its natural and our body and mind has ways of coping.
I do not want to mask this problem and then have to grieve all over again when I have to come off AD's.
Its only my opinion but I would rather wade through the $h!te storm now rather than store it up for later.
If it helps you I am honestly happy for you because I know how tough this sitch is, we all do because we are living it. In my case they are part of the problem as opposed to the solution so please forgive me for my militant views. Sometimes you just know when something is a contributing factor and well........I just know. ;)
I love all you guys on here and do not mean to sound disrespectful. I just know that my W coming off her meds will be a step towards the end of this mess. I will keep you all updated. She can be our case study if you like ::)
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Thanks for sharing all that you have, braincell.
I really appreciate your honesty and ability to listen.
As fir you militant like stance on the subject, I highly respect this, tii.
I wouldn't wish for you to back down, I admire your strong convictions.
For that, you have my utmost respect.
I hope your wife finds a way out of this mess.
Hugs? :)
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Please be assured I am not criticising anyone for taking AD's and as I have said many times they can be used for 6 months max to help people through tough times such as BD.
Braincell, Thanks for all the data you have provided. Yes, one of my main concerns for me is how long I would be on these. The main reason I went on them wasn't just to deal with the MLC issues (although it definitely helped); I had a long history of anxiety / worry / nervousness. The SSRI helped "kill" that along with reducing my stress within the marriage. I am going to work with my doctor / therapist to find a long term solution that doesn't include SSRI. One of my main concerns is I would "lose" my feelings / emotions towards my wife. I see my concerns may very well be founded.
As far as withdrawal, this is often mistaken for a relapse and people are put back on SSRI's.
Could this be because the went CT on them? When my Doc prescribed them he definitely told me DO NOT stop immediately and when it was time to come off he would slowly reduce my dosage over time. Right now he has me on one 10mg pill a day taken at either bed time or in mornings.
One by One, Oxyticin is the hormone produced after sex, it also reinforces the bonding.However, I believe it is possible to bond with someone before sex . Dopamine is what gives that nice feeling when you have a cuddle with someone, its that feeling you get when you start to fall in love and a dopamine hit is produced when you share good times with your long term partner.
Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying. I know I had read about it (I have read more than I can remember at this point) and I knew the two were connected; must have misunderstood.
-OneByOne-
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Hugs to you as well Bb. Thankfully she stopped her pills three weeks ago so I am going to just wait and see how it goes.
One by one, Some people have problems even when tapering. I think the best way to taper is 10 percent at a time every 6 weeks but this requires a pill cutter. My W has tapered far to quickly and as a result D15 has said her mood swings are ridiculous!! She went from 30mg to 0 in three months after 3.5 years of use.
If it gets a bit strange for you just update, stabilise and follow the 10 percent schedule.
The problem is the brain has adapted to the higher levels by shutting down the nt's and when the dose is reduced the brain has to catch up and repair/regrow new transmitters.
Thing is normal docs do not really know all this. General practitioners are jack of all trades masters of none but that is not their fault.
A little insight into how the original license for Prozac was approved.
The manufacturers noticed that a lot of trial subjects were going manic so they simply added a tranquilizer in for good measure. Did they tell the FDA ......hell no.
That may have influenced the outcome. They omitted that and subsequently docs prescribed it without a tranquilizer. A lot of people go manic on these but when you are manic you do not recognise it. You just feel fantastic. Your loved ones will not though because you will act like a teenage dirtbag and to he'll with everyone else.
Read Dr Ben Goldacres book bad pharma. It really blows open the immoral actions of these big pharma companies.