Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Buggy31 on July 12, 2010, 10:11:04 AM
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Non engagement and no-contact are making my MLCer mad and monsterish. Is this typical? It's scary. Any advice. He's flailing like a toddler I suppose.
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Hey Buggy - when I go completely NC, my H gets irritated - not so much monsterish, just irritated that I am not available to him like I was before. Personally, I think that is their fear coming through when they get that way. Fear that we are detaching from them and that reality is sinking in. Don't take it personal; it's not you.
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Hi Buggy,
Typical? Hmmmm....not sure too much is "typical" in MLC. There are some similarities, but every situation manifests itself it a different way.
My H has never been a monster. So, I can't really relate to this. However, so many MLC'ers love the drama that all of this brings. When you are NC, it may be hard for him to get his drama fix. Just my thoughts.
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buggy31,
I know EXACTLY what you are saying! As soon as I stopped contacting my husband like I had been before, he started acting out towards me. He initiated hateful texts to me. And when we did talk or meet, he was horrible! He began spewing all kinds of vile words towards me, which he had never done before.
I suppose it can be all the crap they are going through themselves and they need someone to vent on. So that means us. It's awful and I don't wish it on anyone. I just decided to view my h as being mentally handicapped so I wouldn't hate him.
Hang in there. :)
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Monster spews are hard regardless of how they're brought on. Bless your heart! It's not easy to receive that, but maybe it's confirmation that NC is the best thing to be doing right now!
I get Monster when I poke. I would LOVE NC, regardless. Just hang in there and remember that his words are coming from a dark place that has nothing to do with you.
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Monster, drama or pursuit are all normal behaviours--though not from all MLCers--as a reaction to Dark or No Contact. You're no longer his beck-n-call girl and he's not happy.
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Hey Ladies! :)
This is all about CONTROLLING a situation..and when the MLC'er doesn't have control..they act out because they are not "getting their way".
That's all that's about.
When a person goes NC or otherwise stops engaging; it confuses the MLC'er at first..then they start "poking" the tiger(as MH calls it, on the MLC'er is poking the LBS tiger) in a backward sort of way. They will go to ANY extreme to get the LBS to start engaging in order to help them keep feeding their justification for what they are doing. Plus, it helps them to know where the LBS stands with them.
They poke their heads out, ever so often to see where the LBS is, in regards to where they were the LAST time the MLC'er poked their head out.
They can get quite upset upon NOT finding the LBS where they left them; instead seeing them walking merrily away from the MLC...and they can start throwing their tantrums/fits and hurl insults or whatever it may take to get the LBS to engage them once again; and stop any development the LBS is trying to come forward with...their unfamiliarity, because of various changes within the LBS, can also set the MLC'er off....
When that fails, this can go either way; they either move forward, or run further away...you don't have control over what they will do...so you must do what's best for YOU.
BUT, if you go backwards; time is added and you'll both "cycle" back to where the mistake was made; regardless of WHO made the mistake to try once more to get past it.
I'd "cycled" a few times with him, before I realized this. I'd allow my stress to open my trap; and off we'd go, in another cycle.
Once I started changing I could NOT stop what I was doing...and I saw my husband go to some serious extremes to try to get me to "backslide" back into what I'd been before...the unfamiliarity was eating him alive, and I could see that.
The calmer I was, the worse he became; but I held on firmly; refusing to go back to what I'd been.
He then had two choices, come forward in a positive way or walk away.............I saw him start coming forward in response to my changes..HIS CHOICE.
After that, it was STILL trial and error...I'd open my mouth some times at the WRONG times, and we'd both slide backwards into the abyss, to crawl back up once again..BACK to the SAME PLACE we'd been when I made the "mouthing off" mistake. :)
I wouldn't always "see" his mistakes..but I knew when they happened...as I'd slide right back off with him once again. :)
Sometimes, it was him and sometimes it was ME..but we did make it through...and I can laugh now about the stupid things we BOTH did while working our way through. :)
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I'm starting to get why detachment is so important here. They are determined to keep this energy going. I feel the energy of it. Even with NC/severe dark I feel his energy. I feel him cycling between depression/anger. This makes my stance of NC so important for myself as I don't feel strongly enough detached yet to not engage. This is my goal, to gain my strength so I can return to him detached and able to not engage. I haven't set a limit just following my intuition here. My intuition has been essential in this process. One of my favorite things to do is ask the question "How should I respond here?" Then I give it time and a short, wise and non-dramatic response shows up. If I were to think to much or react right away I would definitely engage. I've also started to visualize myself listening to him and validating rather than trying to fix. We'll see how things go.
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I have a question about MONSTER.
It's now 19mths post BD.
For the first 10 months or so, I was the unlucky recipient of my H's monstrous enraged verbal behaviour. In the early days this was unpredictable, but in later months, it was only after I prodded him about something.
Things settled down for quite a few months. I said in ?march that I would inform an older work colleague of his actions if he spewed at me again. And I meant it. He hasn't once blamed me for his behaviours since then.
Now that over time I've detached more and more - I am wondering if he's panicking about this, and he's pursuing me. As I either walk away or refuse to take the bait (mostly) he seems to get more and more desperate and anxious. He then ends up phoning me - starts out all charming and then manipulative spew comes out. He isn't yelling, but it's selfish and non empathetic and designed to control me and 'put me down'.
I also see charming, manipulative monster as well. All designed to get whatever it is that he wants at the time. I am on high alert now, after being sucked in the first few times it appeared about six months in to the crisis.
My question is - what are others experience of monster? Does monster come and go with various stages in the crisis?
Can I assume that he is feeling more out of control again now?
Thanks, looking forward to your insights
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Hi Kikki,
I am at 7 months post BD. My H's monster came out I'd say about concurrently with BD.
It will go away every little bit, like in late May when out of the blue he brought me home a pot of yellow mums. And then in July, when he spewed venom at me one night, then the next day texted to basically say disregard what I said last night. In August, he told me he wanted to separate, then the next day he said something like just forget it. I am reeling from the latest development: this past Sunday, he said he doesn't want to move out after all. This is after weeks, maybe a month of full-blown monster. I don't think it's going to last, so I am trying to remain detached and getting my own life until monster is back and telling me once again how horrible our life together has been and he's leaving.
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Kikki
He then ends up phoning me - starts out all charming and then manipulative spew comes out. He isn't yelling, but it's selfish and non empathetic and designed to control me and 'put me down'.
This is def monster. Monster can change through the journey before it disappears for good. Not sure it was your threat but more likely that he is 'changing' again as he continues on his path. I think you are right he is trying to pull you in to justify his choices. Instead of verbal rage he is now using emotional abuse which is often more difficult to side step.
Stand back as you are doing and don't play his game. Terminate the phone call or don't participate in the conversation if it is getting out of hand. This is his path though he would like you to react so as he can continue to blame you.
xx
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I only know direct interaction with monster when OW1 was around. It was madness. One day he was all nice and helping me with groceries, or we would go out to a social event, nest day (or next time around) he was insane, next day crying. Sometimes it was all three in a day.
Since I’ve come back to our home town contact my with him diminished. So, it did not took long for him to star e-mailing, them he see me, with a lame excuse, on Summer 07, and as soon as he could, he got out of his job and come working for his local branch of the company I was working with. We had to speak with each other on a daily basis. He even got has far as starting buying me small presents and send them to me. But if I ever tried to talk to him about anything serious (divorce, money, assets) – I didn’t knew a thing about MLC – monster come out and all hell broke loose again.
Before I’ve left I got a really nice scene of “you are abandoning me. I need your help”. “You wanted me to got a job, now I’ve got a job”; “I meant here, not there”, “Well, it turned up there”. Monster follwed in full blown.
Time passed and my local branch of the company closed down. I detached, become NC. I think monster now is showed through is absurd fault divorce cases. Or on the one or other occasion I need to talk to him about taxes. I’ve got that some, nice, crying, monster thing last March on a phone call. But that was the only time since I’ve went NC I’ve had to phone him. Not willing to repeat the experience. I’m done with monster
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Hello,
I am 2 years post BD and almost 6 months post divorce and I still see monster - first it was face face then by letter/e-mail then it moved to being monster through his solicitor as the divorce process was navigated and now it is by text - the most recent time was Friday 9th September when he declared we don't have a relationship, it's all about money for me and I am a liar.......projection and monster spew - he is a master.
I remain detached but sometimes it niggles but I can see it for what is is and don't take it personally (as long as I'm not too tired and have been looking after myself that is!!)
In the words of Doris Day Detach Detach Detach (or Perhaps Perhaps Perhaps as she sings it!!)
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That was confusing for a moment, but I see some kind person has linked this to a former thread :)
Thanks for your experiences and insights Wed2, JA, Anne J and Moving.
Monster is really hard to deal with and I agree - especially so when you're tired and maybe not looking after yourself well enough.
Just A - that makes sense. I probably wouldn't have been able to stop his monster spew if he wasn't at a place that monster was changing within him.
And I think this is what I am struggling with right now - he's actively seeking me out to emotionally abuse me. And it is REALLY REALLY hard to side step.
After a phonecall two nights ago from him that was ghastly, he sent me an email the next day saying 'thanks for the good/bad chat last night'. ???
I feel like I'm also his pressure release valve. And assume he's feeling way out of control again.
Meanwhile I'm feeling exhausted ....
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I'm at the 4-month anniversary today (yay me!!) and I have not seen Monster in two weeks. That's a record for my W as it was an every other day thing for awhile. She said the most vile and demonic things I have ever heard, and I've worked with at-risk teenagers for 12 years if that tells you anything. I don't even want to repeat the things she said as they are too hurtful at this time.
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Hey Happy Anniversary Thundarr :D You're doing well. Still querying if your W is in MLC?
I suspect not ;)
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LOL!!! I should buy myself something to celebrate my anniversary, huh? Star Wars on blu-ray came out today on this side of the pond so I might have to go with that. Not querying anymore, but starting to hit a stride for some reason.
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Star Wars sounds perfect :)
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Moving, did you married my husband? I thought I was the only one seeing monster through a lawyer. How naïf of me. I should know better, they have all got the same script. They only made adjustments to it. Mine is also like yours, all I care about is money and I’m a liar. I even have it on court paper. So that I do not forget it! LOL
kikki , yes, it is very hard to deal with monster. Many times we are really tired, can’t take proper care of ourselves and feel overwhelmed. But we always managed to survive.
You’re right, we are their pressure valves. One more good reason for us to get ou of their way. Even if, as happening with Moving and me, if we are, physically or otherwise, out of the way, they still release the pressure on us. Even if it takes a solicitor, lawyer, court. They stop at nothing. I wonder if they never tire…Because, like you, we all get so exhausted…
Happy anniversary, Thundarr. :) Two weeks without monster is good.
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Well done Thundarr. :)
Isn't it a great feeling when you look back and can count when the last monster spew came out and they are getting wider apart. Gives us some more breathing space.
Although, I do think that the less monster also comes when the LBS learns to detach and not react to monster. Like kids! They get less satisfaction out of it when we don't react. The knives in the back still hurt but I've learnt to take them right out again.
Must mean you are doing well!!! Congratulations.
SP
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That was confusing for a moment, but I see some kind person has linked this to a former thread :)
I wonder who would ever do something like that ^^^^^^ ? :) :) :)
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Hmmm, I had my suspicions!! 8)
Thanks OP :)
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Just thought it would be interesting to see how long MLC when through the montering faze. Did her/she just do it in the beginning, only in replay, in between stage?
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Just thought it would be interesting to see how long MLC when through the montering faze. Did her/she just do it in the beginning, only in replay, in between stage?
Just a couple of times at the beginning. I validated and apologized and since then we seem to be "friends" (Yuck).
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I am sad to say Monster was/is my exH's default position. He was really angry for about 3 years (one year leading up to CD which I think was guilt and shame) and the two years afterwards but I stepped back to a really safe distance. I see, even now, 5 years since he left he is on a hair trigger and still very quick to get cross but I am no longer the brunt of it.
Monster is soul destroying because it can come dressed in nice clothes and attitude - I have had charming Monster too which was more difficult to spot but was passive aggressive and controlling.
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Mine has shown monster in a passive aggressive way anger would actually be better because it would show he is feeling something. Instead has been cold and indifferent , he knows that it pushes my buttons .
Callan
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My xW is permanently in Monster mode most of her family and friends tiptoe around her or make allowance for her so as to not upset her or make her angry. In the 20 years I had known her it had always been like this.
From my point of view I first saw monster in 2001, this was just after D13 was born and before I knew anything about MLC. xW screamed some really hurtful thing at me about me and my family, she even went on to say that if any man shows her any attention she would have sex with them as she didn’t want me to touch her. I remember at the time I didn’t understand what was going on but wrote down everything I could remember as I knew there must be some significance to it.
I didn’t see Monster again until 2004 when out of the she screamed at me “This marriage is over” and she went into escape and avoid. In 2005 I caught her out in a PA, instead of being contrite and wanting to make amends she just got angry with me and was like this until the PA died round 2007. At the time she told me she had an awakening and wanted to be with her family. I still didn’t know about MLC and we just kind of struggled along trying to put our marriage back together.
In 2009 she flew into one of her rages, her car had broken down and she phoned me ranting and raving over that and that put us on the back foot again, it seemed that whenever our marriage settled down she would do something to cause an argument to put distance between us so she could escape and avoid.
2011 I told her I’d had enough, at first she begged me to give the marriage one more chance, but I thought to myself I wasn’t going to me manipulated and abused any more. When she saw I was serious she turned into Monster and has been there pretty much ever since. Divorce proceedings started 2012 and was final 2014. I had 2 years with a live in MLC’er permanently in Monster mode, some of the things she did to antagonise me were outrageous, but I survived it.
As for xW she’s stuck in replay and has several OM on the go, so one of them must be getting monster, just glad it’s not me anymore.
Lanzo
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Mine was a monster for about 3 years. Luckily I'm not afraid of monsters anymore.
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The ex was in monster daily for the passed 10 years..discontent, spent money, disregarded, and dismissed what anybody else wanted.
Great Christmas idea for a T-shirt:
Instant @$$hole- just add money
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My X didn't show much Monster.
Only a few times after BD and it was ALWAYS about money. He couldn't understand why we couldn't just go our separate ways and take care of ourselves, financially.
Um...maybe because we had been married for almost 22 years, he made $30,000 a year more than me and I was retired and had limited income. ::)
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For me, monster didn't arrive on the scene until around 3 years into this MLC madness. It stuck around for about 3 months. Monster may have arrived late on the scene, but when he did, he arrived in full force. My husband went from being this loving and caring person who did not hesitate to hit me during an argument. What is really difficult about all of this is not the hitting me part. We both have been in counseling and taken various classes to learn how to not behave like monsters. The hardest part is that he has lost his self esteem and has been looking for it in all of the wrong places.. He's gotten better, but we still have some work to do.
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Mine has been monstering since 2010, but the worst was the 8 months we lived together after BD. He is extremely passive-aggressive, selfish and manipulative, and I can see the anger boiling just beneath the surface.
He is a master at deflecting the blame on to anyone and everyone. I still get my share, but now he also blames S20 (basically no relationship), D22 (a distant relationship), the mediator (his money problems), and his boss (guessing work isn't that marvelous). I see him being slowly eaten alive by the anger and resentment. Unfortunately, he is in vey deep and allows bad things that have happened in his life to fester.
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My H's monstering comes and goes. He doesn't call me names, stuff like that he just gets so extremely mad when I've done something that cut him off. Like I changed my apartment looks. Instead of being mad like a normal person probably would, he goes into this text rage and blows it all up, around and back again. Shouting violations, etc but he moved out. I don't have any keys to the place he's living at nor do I go there. He's monstering is through texting. Or, if something comes to his head he thinks he need to full fill like cashing in retirement, moving stuff from storage which he was obsess with but now hasn't mentioned it lately, etc. I'm wondering if that stuff is gone for awhile. He's more normal but then that scares me too. I want to know what he could be up to. LOL!
What is the nice monster? What are you getting when you get the nice monster?
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14 months so far and still growing strong ads that she is in full surgical menopause and going cold turkey oh boy
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Pascale, I think you are on to something with the menopause/andropause thing.
I remember going through the "baby blues", it was crazy. The advantage was, I had read all the baby books and knew what was happening. Even though I knew, it was just plain weird, my emotions were all over the place and I couldn't control it. Luckily it was mild and it went away in a few weeks.
Women tend to be more "in tune" with their bodies, we are more likely to talk to other women about "hormonal/emotional issues" but not all do. Maybe that's why more men seem to go through MLC. No guy is going to tell another guy that he is feeling "sad and don't know why" and maybe some women (like your wife) is just more hormonal than she is use to being and doesn't feel comfortable talking to somebody. I'm just the type of person that will get a hot flash in a room full of strangers and say something like, "hey, don't worry about my face turning purple it's just another egg dying", but that's me.
It sucks that they get to the point that they take their anger out on the people that love them the most. My husband is close to a vanisher so I can only hope that his anger is now turning on to the girl. At some point, hopefully, they will even out and realize the issue was inside them the whole time. Maybe that is what is really happening when we hear that they "come out of the fog".
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The monstering behaviour showed up right after Bomb drop if I tried to even say "Hi" to my husband. It was full on for 4 months until he ran away. Then we only saw that behaviour when he was either confronted with something he didn't want to talk about or hear. Otherwise it did not make an appearance. But when something uncomfortable was presented, it went from zero to 60 in seconds flat.
Monster behaviour including flashing dark eyes, screaming, mocking, shoving, or complete silence with a stare down and his arms loved to fly around with his hands in fists. He often reminded me of a small boy having a major temper tantrum. The one time I swear there was fear in those dark eyes. I described him as a caged animal fighting for his life.
The last time I saw this behaviour was this summer when he said he wanted a divorce and he flip flopped about that for hours. At one point, he brought up his family and we got onto the discussion of his Mother. He picked up his briefcases and threw them down in full anger when he told me that she ruined his life for the last few years (she passed away almost 2 years ago).
So the behaviour still exists and it is the same level of intensity but I think he has a better handle of when it appears or no one is poking him and making him accountable. To me, I see it as a defense mechanism to help him avoid having to deal with anything. He knows I am terrified of this behaviour. It is such a 180 from the man I know and love.
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Is four months the magic number? Mine was like that about 4 months before he left, and now he is basically a vanisher.
He flipped out for outrageous stuff like-
I would forget to turn the outside light on...
I was standing "in the way" at a club when no one was around.
I made an omelet, he pushed it across the counter and yelled, "what the hell is this?"...that was the day before BD.
I have said this before, since I don't see him often, I think he is pushing his anger onto others, at the divorce hearing he screamed, and I mean screamed at his lawyer more than once. It was embarrassing.
Again, this is not normal anger, and I don't believe it's b/c he just "fell out of love", something is just not right.
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Full on Monster lasted about 6 months. That was extreme. I still have a note H wrote at that time, with the handwriting almost carved into the paper. We weren't home when he expected us to be and he just blew - like a volcano - even though we were just 2 miles down the road at a lesson S regularly attended. Nothing sinister - but H was completely paranoid. It was scary, but so extreme I knew something was wrong.
We still have outbursts of Monster - usually when he feels something he cares deeply about (usually S) is threatened. I imagine, unless we hit Liminality (pray God we do) that this could rumble on until the end of time. Sweet. NOT.
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Had full on Monster for about 6 months. Still have piece of paper from that time. Terrifying. We weren't home when he expected us to be - but we were only 2 miles down road at lesson that S regularly attended. I knew then that something wasn't right.
Now we get it from time to time - whenever something he wants isn't readily available. I can imagine this could go on, should he not enter liminality - for the rest of his days. Scary.
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Well, I just got back from one of our storage units and found that H has decided to move everything out of it he thinks is his. Not sure if he took any household stuff. Looks like it's just his but it's hard to tell in storage. He knows he's not suppose to move anything from the storage area without us doing it together but he was obsess with it. He probably did it when I was in the hospital for surgery on my liver. I count that stuff as monster. It's stuff he does behind my back then he'll be just nice to me. I'm not even going to bring it up. I'll just relay it to attorney. He sure did clean up the area though.
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It lasted for about 4 months then he switched from angry to charming. I would still get bouts of angry here and there but mostly charming. He would come and seek me out it he got angry at me because he didn't want to push me away. Typical clinger. Then he moved out 9 months after bomb drop and I would get spurts of angry monster again but it was him projecting his fights with ow on me and since I wouldn't react he stopped. Haven't seen angry monster since august. Just a very confused and depressed man since September. Now I don't see him at all cause he's in treatment center. When I do talk to him he sounds tired and broken. It's like he's where I was at this time last year.
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For all I know Mr J is still monstering after more than 8 years. Maybe in the last couple months he may have calmed down because I took him to court and he had to play nice.
He was manic monster before he left and for the months after. I come back home, he keep being monstering but I was no longer around to deal with him.
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Great !! Not looking good then lol mine had been monster for two months
At least I know to stay the hell away and let him go
His playing the victim
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Is four months the magic number? Mine was like that about 4 months before he left, and now he is basically a vanisher.
Nah,
4 months is the same amount of time my wife monstered and she has become a vanisher for the last 5 months. What's up with that? Did they burn through all of their rocket fuel within 4 months? I believe it becomes so emotionally draining to them to be monstering like that and trying to carry on a clandestined relationship with the OP, that it depletes them emotionally, mentally and physically.
Many of the stories point to them being so depressed and drained that all they want to do is sleep. Since we can't see them all of the time, I really wander if they go find a cave somewhere and decompress, much like the Incredible Hulk does when he is done monstering!!
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Don't think so Neo. At least it does not happen with all MLCers. Several of us have very high energy MLCers who barely sleep or stay put. They are always out and about, incapable of stop.
Others do the get into the cave thing, but not all of them. And some keep monster around for years on end.
They aren't all exactly alike.
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I am not sure how long my STBXH has been in Monster mode. I think it started a few month before BD
One day, I could not sleep, so I stayed up in my home office (I work from home a lot) messing with computer. He woke up and came to the room yelling at me angrily something like why are you working so late.
When he was angry, he would not talk but start cleaning up the house like a madman. This happened a few times before BD.
After BD, he went back and forth of being an angry monster and Mr. Self-Pity. One day he became so angry that he started to extent his hands toward my neck. He also became extremely controlling. he decided that he was going to keep his house, and I had to find a new place. He refinanced so that he can take off my name from mortgage ( he says so that I can find my own place like he was doing a big favor to me!). I refused to sign quit-claim until I find a new place. He was so angry and yelled at me a lot!
Now that I moved out, I do not have to deal with him other than dealing with divorce issue. I see him as a wallower (EA but not PA). He says he has an urge to "start over" and run away, but he does not have a gut to quite his job. I think he is basically a vanisher (Goodness, Gracious!)
I think he is so angry because somewhere deep down in his heart he knows what he is doing is wrong and his Dad would have not approved. He blames me for destroying his confidence and blames me for his EA. I told him the only person who can destroy his confidence is himself. Boy, he got angry ( Am I not right?). According to him, he would not have been attracted to his co-worker if I were a better wife. He still wants to believe himself to be a nice guy, but he is not, so he gets angry. I think this is why he is adamant about divorce. He wants to have sex with other women, but he can't while he is married. So in his mind, he is doing the right thing. He says I can find someone who is much more compatible. We grew apart, etc.
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What's up with that? Did they burn through all of their rocket fuel within 4 months? I believe it becomes so emotionally draining to them to be monstering like that and trying to carry on a clandestined relationship with the OP, that it depletes them emotionally, mentally and physically.
Many of the stories point to them being so depressed and drained that all they want to do is sleep. Since we can't see them all of the time, I really wander if they go find a cave somewhere and decompress, much like the Incredible Hulk does when he is done monstering!!
hmmm...not sure what husband is doing,
He is high energy as in dying his hair, being in a band, tattoos, designer clothes, girl half is age, etc,.. but the hairdresser said he falls asleep in the chair waiting for his turn. This is in the middle of the day, He also got into an accident b/c he fell asleep at the wheel, again in the middle of the day. This was about 2 years before BD and his excuse for doing overnights at work (obviously he had enough energy to date).
So I don't think "high energy" means having a lot of energy as much as going through many different "masks" to try to avoid their issues. I could be wrong, though.
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My X didn't show much Monster. Only a few times after BD and it was ALWAYS about money.
Really no Monster from mine either, but some of what I call little-boy-monster. Little tantrums about money issues, being "on the hook" for credit card charges I rarely make & always pay off, jumping to the conclusion I've changed passwords, resentful about our separation agreement, etc.
He did snarky monster about our S-31 when I expressed concern a few months after BD that he was depressed & failing his course & not getting an internship arranged. It read "...he doesn't have the same work ethic I have; he needs to cut his hair, dress business casual, be medicated, etc, etc". MLC translation--"not my fault, not my fault, not my fault".
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Hi
We are 7 months past BD, 6 months since we separated. My xp doesn't monster often but I think when he does it is around the time he has moments of clarity about what he has done. Xp turns into a teenager (he displays a lot of different teenage behavior, differently having to go through an unfinished part of his past) and starts emailing and texting me all sorts of crazy stuff. Like its my fault no body likes him or any of his friends. Apparently I have super powers!
I think the monstering is actually the guilt and the bad feelings he gets when he has that clarity of how much distraction he has caused. Once he has monstered he then goes back into the tunnel so again he forget about all the nasty lies and rewriting of history that he did while he was monstering.
Kia kaha - stay strong
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Hi
We are 7 months past BD, 6 months since we separated. My xp doesn't monster often but I think when he does it is around the time he has moments of clarity about what he has done. Xp turns into a teenager (he displays a lot of different teenage behavior, differently having to go through an unfinished part of his past) and starts emailing and texting me all sorts of crazy stuff. Like its my fault no body likes him or any of his friends. Apparently I have super powers!
I think the monstering is actually the guilt and the bad feelings he gets when he has that clarity of how much distraction he has caused. Once he has monstered he then goes back into the tunnel so again he forget about all the nasty lies and rewriting of history that he did while he was monstering.
Kia kaha - stay strong
Wow,....this is weird, my husband did the same exact thing right around that time. We met about financials around 8 months post BD, before (and after) we very rarely talked about anything except financials. Out of the blue he said, "you must hate me", I said no i could never hate him in fact I forgave him, Then it got really weird,
he said he was "testing" his friends to see who would side with me and who would side with him. I said that I wasn't aware of a contest. He said nobody called him and everybody was against him. I told him that very few called me too it was me that called them, I said people are just confused about the situation b/c we were always the "stable" couple that everyone could count on. He thought I was rallying everyone against him and it wasn't further from the truth.
He then leaned in and said, "you know I have issues in social situations and have trouble with people"
Here's the kicker...this man plays hockey, is in a band, is a leader in his industry, he has more friends than anybody I know, when his father died there were literally hundreds of people lined up, mostly friends of husband. I even said the phrase you used, "wow, I must have super powers to make everyone hate you", many people did try to talk to him after he left, some of these people I don't even know, yet he still tried to blame me for people questioning his decisions.
Again, I think they are just projecting their own guilt and inadequacies onto us.
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Hey nah
Isn't it scary how similar our mlcers can be. My xp is well known in our community. Along with running our own business xp coaches our s rugby team, is the chairman of our s school board, is a volunteer fire fighter and we have been foster parents to 40 children over the past 4 years. People saw us as the most stable and loving couple they knew. Xp was well liked and respected by many people until he left me for a sl*tty 30 yo wh*re. People were very supportive even though most people couldn't understand what he had done. People started to turn their backs on xp when he and ow started to bad mouth me. I have never spoken a negative word about xp and will not tolerate anyone running him down. Now xp looks like a jerk and my halo is glowing. So now xp is mad at me about that as well.
I wish my xmas list was long as my xps list of everything I have done wrong. ;D
I totally agree projected guilt is their weapon of choice - see it regularly
Kia kaha - stay strong
Ps - sorry my posts read a bit random. Posting from my phone and it keeps changing words and spelling on me >:(
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nah-He then leaned in and said, "you know I have issues in social situations and have trouble with people"
Mine said pretty much the same thing a few years ago. Like it was MY fault he had no friends.
He has always been a big introvert, avoiding people and social gatherings like the plague. Then he wonders why he has no close friends. Ah, maybe you need to be a friend to have friends. ::)
Last year he did some research on line and decided he had Social Anxiety. He bought a self-help book on the subject, took notes, took the tests but never really made any changes. He still avoids people.
I remember seeing notes he wrote for himself and believe me they hurt. Some of his list was:
Meet someone new
Have more fun
Get on with my life
Want to meet women
Stay focused at work, stay at meetings and be normal like everyone else.
Most of the list was Script...meeting someone new, have more fun. get on with my life, etc. but some of it was just the fact that he is not comfortable around people and sadly didn't feel he was normal.
Then he started taking mood pills. St John's Wart for example.
All very sad but all you can do is accept that they are trying to find themselves.
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Ok, my what I'm thinking isn't monster but just plain bad decisions with my MLCer.
I don't get these kinds of conversations. He doesn't come to me talking about blame or coming at me verbally reminding me I at fault for everything in his life. He doesn't communication anything to me.
What he does do is passive/aggressive stuff. He will text me if something doesn't go his way and I will get the angry text but it's on the subject at hand. It's always blown out of hand. What I call monster for me is not knowing what my H is going to do next. Sometimes he gets something in his mind and has to do it. EX - he just emptied out what he decided was his from our storage unit. He has been told over and over that we need to do that together but when I was in the hospital he took stuff out of storage. He sneaks around and I don't know what he will do next. Is that monster or just crazy MLC stuff?
Over the last 9 months my H hasn't come at me personally but with come at me passive/aggressively by doing something to disrupt me life or try. He's anger shows up passive/aggressively. He doesn't spend time cutting me down, telling me what I did wrong. In fact he won't talk about anything to me. Just work conversation, sometimes I'll get a text that's a touch and go about nothing or something funny but he does not communication hate to me. He will however, do things like I found out he was recording our conversations. Not sure what he's trying to get on me but in his mind that was a good idea. Or, he cashed in our retirement. Run off with both sets of car keys, empty out he's stuff or what he thinks is his stuff from storage knowing that he's not suppose to do that per attorneys but does it anyhow. I think I get nice monster most of the time. That's the monster I can't trust. I don't know what he is going to do or what he already did when I'm getting nice monster.
My husband has told me on 1 occasion how he felt about me, what I did, what's all wrong with me and that was at the time of BD. From there he hasn't brought anything up again. We have no talks about OW, relationship or my failures in his eyes. He monsters in other ways or at least that is what I called them.
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UCL...actually our husbands seem very similar. I'm in about a year longer than you and thats the only reason I have had more "conversations", actually at this point we haven't talked since August. I'm not worried, though, I know he will show up again at some point.
Passive/aggressive is my husbands specialty. We don't communicate at all and only had a few "snippets" of him opening up in 20 months, these were always mixed in meetings with lawyers or about finances. The only reason I have even got as much as I did is b/c I backed way off, very early, I let him come to me, which is not very often. I believe with all my heart that he had the potential to be a true vanisher if I didn't give him an extreme amount of space early on.
My husband too never said there was anything "wrong" with me, except we both grew up in dysfunctional families, ummm wasn't a problem for 28 years, now it is? Basically he said when he left that "we grew apart" then admitted it wasn't me but him and said, "I don't know, I guess I'm F'd up in the head"
It's only nine months for you, when i was at nine months I was very much in the dark at what was going on in his head. He did everything he could do to avoid me. Waiting sucks but sit back and slowly what you want to know will come to you.
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Mine said pretty much the same thing a few years ago. Like it was MY fault he had no friends.
He has always been a big introvert, avoiding people and social gatherings like the plague. Then he wonders why he has no close friends. Ah, maybe you need to be a friend to have friends. ::)
This is key. My husband seems like an extrovert, he sings in a band, coached and ran several youth hockey leagues, a leader in his industry. All those things, however, he needs to be the center of attention. He is very comfortable giving speeches (or singing) in front of hundreds (or even thousands) of people. One on one though, he disappears. When he sings, he shows up, does his thing and then leaves, he doesn't interact unless its a few drunks telling him how he is so awesome.
That's where I always came in (but didn't realize until he left and others made this observation), I like people and I like to socialize. I always backed off when he was the center and let him have the limelight, I actually enjoyed it. When it was time to organize, make phone calls, talk to individuals, thats when I took over.
So when he left, he was expecting people to call again and again (even though he avoided them) and rally around him. I reached out to people, b/c that's what I always did. Even though we were no longer together, we stayed in our roles. I reached out, talked and talked and talked, and he sat in a cave waiting for it to come to him. Now, he's pointing fingers saying he doesn't have any friends, well you need to call back once in a while, A-hole.
I hear the girl is very socially awkward, so he has seemed to disappeared. Maybe he likes it this way, I'm not sure.
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Thanks Nah for the encouragement. Sometimes I read post and think where do we fit into this? My H isn't fuming all the time (um, I don't know what is going on in his head). He doesn't spend his time cutting me down but will do passive/aggressive stuff towards me and then later I'll get this strange nice text about something just to change the direction of what he just did. I don't text him with arguments, he knows I don't play his aggressive text games if I do get something he's angry about. I've given him his space. I don't text, unless it's work stuff or call him at all. I have given him his space to follow his fantasy. He is now in a hotel by himself and I'm praying he's thinking, thinking and thinking. He doesn't have OW to run to because she doesn't live here and he has tried to have some casual texts with me but I have stop responding. He does talk to OW a lot and does text a lot but he doesn't get to see her unless he leaves to visit which I'm sure he'll be going there for Christmas and the New Year.
It's good to hear you were where I was at this time and maybe things will change if the divorce doesn't happen first. I'm praying for OW to be gone here soon but who knows my MLCer could be one to marry his. He's completely in and he's the kind of person who would marry her without thinking.
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It's only nine months for you, when i was at nine months I was very much in the dark at what was going on in his head. He did everything he could do to avoid me. Waiting sucks but sit back and slowly what you want to know will come to you.
Nah,
I am at the nine month mark as well, but my wife has turned into a vanisher. For the first month or two, she was emailing me or talking to me several times a week about various topics. In the 3-4 month time frame it dropped to twice a week and then dropped off to once every two weeks and then in July I heard from her once. After that I haven't heard anything.
From what you have written, it sounds like your husband went into vanisher mode very soon after he left, so it sounds very similar to my situation. I am curious as to what you have done in those months you haven't heard from him. How long of stretch have you went without hearing from him?
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From what you have written, it sounds like your husband went into vanisher mode very soon after he left, so it sounds very similar to my situation. I am curious as to what you have done in those months you haven't heard from him. How long of stretch have you went without hearing from him?
I have been very honest on this forum, not too proud of this but about a month after he left, I picked myself up and went through my own MLC. I met husband when I was 17 and he was my first. I spent about six months drinking and sleeping around, targeting any man that was connected to my husband in some way (as long as they were very single). It was very self-destructive and revenge driven, not very healthy. I have since settled down and now I have a boyfriend. My boyfriend was my boss, and stood by me through all my craziness.
So, how did I get him from being a vanisher to a "off and on-er"? I stepped back, a lot, I waited for opportunities (which was very very hard). At a meeting, out of the blue he said, "you must hate me", I said "No I forgive you." At another meeting he said, "the kids never call unless they need something" I so wanted to say, "yes A-hole and they never will" but instead I said, "WE need to do better as parents" In one single swoop it made us seem like partners and in this together. I also walked up to him once and said, "I am not your enemy", remember they are paranoid children. He stood up quick and said, "I am not your enemy either". This was over a long time, over a year. I was not always perfect but sometimes the opportunity just fell into my lap, and sometime I had to step back and wait for the next time. Unfortunately this is a very very long process.
I usually have contact with husband in some way about once a month now. True vanishers, there is no contact at all. Also, I know I can call him, ask to meet, and he would. We are both in a "stubborn-off" right now. I really don't think our story is over, even if he gets married (which is very possible) our story is not over.
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I had to really think about his one UL. I got monster almost constant for at least 3 of the 4 years. When he came back the last time he was still monster just off and on. Once he left I didn't get monster very often. Pretty much none at all but I suppose its because he was getting his way. He was free to do whatever he wanted. And we know what that got him so far.
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He was free to do whatever he wanted.
Haha...they are free alright. ;) Free to find out what the ow is really like, ::)
Yes, let them go and if it is meant to be, they will come back.
I said this often to the lawyers and even on the stand during our divorce. "I don't agree but I will support his decision". I let the world know that it wasn't my idea but I loved him enough to support his decision.
After the hearing I walked up to him, hugged him (the first time since BD) and said, "I hope you find what you are looking for", then I walked away and didn't turn back.
Yes, it's tempting to go on and on about how its wrong for us and the whole family, blah blah blah... they won't remember it all. I know he must think of my words while the girl is watching and controlling his every move. Good let her do her job.
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He was free to do whatever he wanted.
Haha...they are free alright. ;) Free to find out what the ow is really like, ::)
Yes, let them go and if it is meant to be, they will come back.
I said this often to the lawyers and even on the stand during our divorce. "I don't agree but I will support his decision". I let the world know that it wasn't my idea but I loved him enough to support his decision.
After the hearing I walked up to him, hugged him (the first time since BD) and said, "I hope you find what you are looking for", then I walked away and didn't turn back.
Yes, it's tempting to go on and on about how its wrong for us and the whole family, blah blah blah... they won't remember it all. I know he must think of my words while the girl is watching and controlling his every move. Good let her do her job.
BRAVO Nah...you took the wind right out of his sails for sure! More importantly you walked away with class and dignity. Gave it right back to him.
H was free to destroy himself and his life and he did just that. Now his sits in the rubble of the aftermath trying to figure out what to do.
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Ex didn't monster too badly. After bd she was still quite polite and fair but still on her path. If we got into a fight though she went right of her nut.
Later after she moved out , there was so much hurt in me and in coping with trying to figure out how to be a dad like this , l basically stayed pretty polite to keep the best sitch with my d.
Ex did to but did do a few very hurtful things , seemingly oblivious to any pain they might cause me and the same toward my d and l. Very fair but oblivious .
We or l , never discussed us, in my coming and going for d or in sorting out of our house and financial mess . although there was a few all night text sessions where ex admitting lots of things and to effing up hugely with all this. But she was still on her path. However , now and then over our first 12mths sep' , if something did flare up, a few times she just told me point blank to fk off.
They weren't even big things , l use to be the one with the short fuse not her .
It was amazing though , the way she could just say that now , totally uncaring of the consequences . Of course she was living with my d , not me. So she could afford to risk that . l was the one that had to keep coming and going no matter what. She chops and changes a a lot , a bit coldish one day and happy to see me the next . But not monstering .
But , over all , to this day and even back then with all our financial crap and with me and my d , really , she's been a dream ex tbh.
When l hear and read about what others are being put through , tbh l'm thankful for my sitch.
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Strange - if I was to answer this yesterday morning I would of said- havn't seem monster in about 4 months- but then it's BACK! I'm noticing a pattern with monster:
If things are not going h way- then monster appears
And when h is sinking towards rock bottom- monster comes out!
Right now h is unemployed, not paying me child support, it's the holidays and kids won't spend it with h and ow, kids won't accept his new life! So out comes monster !
Yep I see a pattern...20 months into this and I see a pattern
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hi UL
prior to BD, i got almost constant monster. i was baffled, and i guess this went on for about 6 to 9 months. then BD, then monster came out to play every so often. after we officially separated, i got monster when things weren't going ex h's way, or when i threw truth darts that hit too close to home.
i went as NC as i could (i am 3+ years into this mess) and the last time i got monster, i shut it down and said "done--not acceptable"
i think the pattern up until now was that when things were not going well with OW, i got monster because hey! it's all onlyjo's fault, right? whatever.
now, i'm not so sure. i have not seen monster lately--what i'm seeing is puppy monster "please let's work this out between us (the settlement)--it's taking so long with lawyers, isn't d12 doing great? blah blah blah"
that's monster, too, only in disguise! RCR talks about this in one of her articles...
i had to set FIRM boundaries b/c ex h is/was soooooo angry and erratic. NC worked/works for me. he is one angry SOB, and has been for years, even before MLC. not
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Thinking back prior to BD, I guess I was basically getting kind of a "b!tc# mode"; no real outbursts of complete anger, just snide comments.
After BD, she had 2 angry instances. I let the first one slide, but the second time she went off on me, I came across the couch and across the room so fast, she backed into a corner and basically I gave her a verbal the same way I would have done D11 if she smarted off to me! I swear she looked like a friggin' pathetic 13 year old taking a scolding! As the saying goes, "never bite the hand that feeds you!"
After that, she turned to Seducer / Manipulator. Took me a while to figure that out, but once I did, I just upped my GAL and went "cold" on her.
Now, I just basically ignore her unless it has something to do with D11 or S21! She will call now for simple things that use to be through text, like confirming what time I will pick up D11 for the evening. She uses these to attempt to prod my personal life or just have "friendly" conversation. I don't buy it; I basically just give her the "hey, I got work / plans to do, take care" and hang up!
DO
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I think maybe I don't understand monster they way it is. For me anything H does is monstering. LOL! He was and probably still is into this is all about me, everything is mine, etc so those are my what I called monster. He's hiding something but could be nice to me till I find out about it. Things like storage unit is emptied of stuff he felt was his and doesn't say anything about doing it. He was told not to do it that we needed to do it together but did it anyhow, boxed up CD, video's etc because hey, everything is his. Cashed in retirement, quit his job so it's not counted for in divorce and leave me or thought he would be leaving me without insurance with this cancer I have. All passive stuff. All of what I call monstering is what's going on in his head and what is he going to do next more than verbal. However, I do get small verbal stuff from time to time and then he'll cycle and ask something nice.
Good or bad I feel like I can't trust either one. It's all a cover for something.
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I got monster quite a bit for the first 6 months. My h wasn't so much verbal as financial. Getting nasty with me verbally won't work for him because I won't take it. Never have. So instead he withholds money, or sucks me into his lies about coming home and then slams me. I'm getting that right now, but I've caught on and I'm letting him think he's going to monster on me and say he's done again, but surprise for him, I don't care. I'll probably just say thank goodness!!! Wonder what will happen to that smug look he gets on his face everytime he thinks he's hurting me when he realizes it doesn't hurt anymore.
I also see where when ow is in picture h monsters even more and harder. Like right now, I know he's with ow, but he's playing his game that he likes to play that he's coming home. I know he's with ow because when he says he's coming home he has that smug smirk on his face. Now I just smile back. Dummy. My h is so self absorbed and such a poor liar I kind of feel sorry for him. I don't even bother calling out his lies anymore. I do call him out when he gets arrogant with me.
And agree with UncontionalLove - I trust nothing - it's all a cover for something.
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We use the word MONSTER but what really are the signs of monster? (I do know most of the signs just asking for discussion purposes) I read through monster and the definition of it but is every bad behavior or word monstering or just a the persons personality? How do you tell the different between monster and maybe you wanting your way and not getting it and he gets mad at you as a normal person would?
I would love to read some of the monster coming out and ways we can know for sure or even ways to know it's kind of past for a time. Maybe just a bullet point of things H/W has done or said.
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Unconditional,
I'm not the best one to answer your question because I saw very little Monster in my X, but looking back it was more in the very beginning of his crisis I saw the anger. I think it comes from Resentment. I found this article:
Resentment
Rejection & Refusal eventually fail to stop and reverse aging or whatever it is the person fears and is thus avoiding. Upon recognition of this failure, the person adds Resentment to the building crisis. Resentment is the form of anger that originates from a feeling of inferiority and low worth; anger at God is resentment and is consequent of feeling powerless. He is angry at God and angry with life and as he ferments in the emotion of anger. Since MLCers often doubt their faith, they deny their anger is toward God and project it toward his environment and others—the spouse in particular.
The Monstering we see is more out of frustration with themselves. They lash out with harsh words, huge blaming, meanness, coldness...
You never....
You always...
This marriage is over...
I'm never coming back...
I'm miserable...
I suppose we all reacted poorly to this because we had no idea what was going on so we tried to reason with them. Spelling out how they are wrong.
Edit - See Reply #20 - OldPilot
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Haha I don't know how this got into this thread. I thought I had started a new thread on my own. I'm wondering if someone moved me here.
Thanks Thunder!
Edit - see edit above! - OP
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Has anyone tried aromatherapy at home with their spouse?
Maybe some calming or anti-depressant scents in the house? Maybe the same scents in the laundry or in perfume/cologne?
Just wondering if anyone has tried this and what the results were.
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I have mot tried that but right after bd i read somewhere that st. Johns wart might help. I bought some for h and he took it for a couple if days. When i asked him if he was still taking it, he said no why should i . your the one who needs it. A couple of months later he started buying vitamins. 2 or 3 bottles of different kinds.
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Not quite what you are saying 1phoenix, but my friend did give me her 'happy spray' from her crystal healer approx 3 years ago, which would be along the same lines as aromatherapy I guess. The first night she gave it to me I sprayed it on H's pillow in the study where he was sleeping, and also in my bedroom. Within an hour I happened to be in the doorway of his room and saw him put his PIN into his iPad. The next morning he went for a walk, and of course I looked at his iPad, which confirmed my suspicions as to why my H had been acting so weird. Search history included OW's name (I had pretty much worked that out), 'pregnancy glandular fever', 'paternity testing'...so I found out a few other things as well...so anyway, long story short, I attribute this to the happy spray leading me to seeing his PIN!!! I would definitely try the aromatherapy, surely it can't do any harm (I know you are thinking of using it for different reasons to my story above, lol, ie good not evil!!!). Think I might try some calming aromatherapy for myself, you have given me a good idea!
Bluerose, I have been using St Johns Wort for the last couple of months, I think it is helpful for me to reduce my anxiety a little. Even if it is a placebo, if it does the trick I am happy, I do need some help for my anxiety, and it is much more palatable for me than the escitalopram I was using early on (not in any way against prescription medication - I wouldn't have gotten through the early days without it, but reluctant to go back on them, as I found coming off them tricky)
Sorry if I have gone off topic on your thread 1p!!!
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Not at all.
Just been thinking that we all seem to agree that there is something out of 'whack' with their brains, so there may be something to a calming scent in the home to help keep the monster down a little.
Unfortunately, I do not have anyone to experiment on, otherwise I would :)
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Wouldn't it be great if it had a positive impact. Will be watching with interest to see if anyone replies with positive results they have had! I don't have anyone to experiment on either, so think I will experiment on myself, happy to be the best I can be :)
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This says everything you need to know to understand them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZR64EF3OpA
The moral of the story is we all need to be like Toto and expose them for their true selves that we know and love.
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I agree, that is the moral of the story.
The question is, how do we do that??? I want a Toto in my life :) :)
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You would think the Toto in mlcer's life would be their loved ones. But, sadly, they let it go as to not "upset" the mlcer. Even though they know that what their loved one is doing is wrong.
It would be nice to have a Toto. Someone to say "Hey. Who are you? Are you even (insert name)? You look like her/him but certainly don't act like (name)." But as LBS, we know the truth and can only get through this as best as we can.
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Maybe they already realize that we are Toto. We are their reflection and that's why they run. Yesterday we had a conversation about my graying hair and ageing. She hides her ageing. I embrace it. She see's me and I expose what she is really running from. Her authentic self.
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I think that is true, Watcher. We are Toto, but I am not sure it is because we are a reflection, but rather we KNOW them. They can't pull the wool over our eyes with their changed behavior.
In my H's case, he can fool OW because she didn't know him before MLC, and he can fool MIL because she knew him when he was a child and that is the age he is acting now. Only I have lived with him as a mentally mature adult and can really see how the Wizard is NOT him.
MendingLioness, I actually have done that a couple times when he was monstering. I told him this was not him, that he was better than this and the man I married does not act this way.
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That is true about the op. They didn't know our h/w before the alien invaded their body. Heck. H and I had relations Wednesday night. He told me he still loves me and misses me. He doesn't want OW to know so that tells me alien is still alive. That's how I can keep from dwelling on it and being upset. But if I am being honest, I didn't feel like I was making love with or cuddling with my h either. And he was the one who initiated the cuddling. I was actually expecting him to get up and get dressed and go back home... Lol
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Of course, they are playing the Wizard with the OP too, who is usually a Cowardly Lion afraid to lose them and they don't want us to pull a Toto and give the OP any idea about the truth because then the Cowardly Lion will want what we have and they don't want to give it to them.
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That is a better analysis Goner. I agree its because we know them and they cannot pull the wool over our eyes. Good point.
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I love this analogy.. it rings so true ....thanks for sharing..
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The moral of the story is we all need to be like Toto and expose them for their true selves that we know and love.
It doesn't work. They don't listen and are too deep inside the turmoil/fog.
I think it is because we know them.
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What I meant by exposing them is not to be cowed by the Wizard's fearful persona and react as if that is the real them. Behind the Wizard persona is someone who probably is actually afraid themselves and we have to view them in that way.
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Trust me, anyone that has been physically hurt by their MLC, like myself, Savoir Faire, In It, LP and others don't have much of a desire of seeing the MLCers as being someone who is probably maybe also affraid.
While in crisis, the real person is the crisis person. The person that used to me is no more, and may that person may never return.
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So we all know mega evil monster. When we get screamed at because their was a piece of lego behind the couch or whatever... ::)
But do you guys have a lot of info for the other monster. The Mr. Nice Guy one. Who comes in acting sweet and pleasant like there is nothing wrong. Baring chocolates and calling you sweet heart.
I haven't found to much info on this other than a brief mention in one of the articles from HB.
At the beginning mine flipped between Mr Nice Guy and Evil Monster.... now I get Wallower or Mr Nice Guy for the most part. But I am not really sure what to do with/make of Mr Nice guy. I do know if I mentioned the wrong word...or talk about anything of actual importance Mr Evil will come out.
Hints, tips, tricks, links all appreciated.
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Sorry, can't help ya hon.
I would say he goes back and forth being a Monster. There pretend Mr. Nice Guy, then there's Monster guy.
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Yeah this may be where my ex is now. I wouldn't say it's Charming Monster but more like possible pretending to be Mr. Nice or trying to be Mr. Nice. I think mine is working himself out of anger and Monster. Not that it wouldn't show up again but he's cycle out of replay and possible in and out of fog. He's show a bit more emotions that he's shown in two years so something is changing but he's still not to be trusted and he's still not at bottom yet I don't believe. Just a nicer version that I'm getting. He's out of energy with replay for now.
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I have learned when my h is nice, To be scared. Usually means he is up to something and I will find out real soon. Mine started out a low energy wallower and has become a very special kind of crazy MLCer. But I do feel a lot guilt from him when he is in mr nice guy mode. He had a lot of guilt and confusion while living in the house. Once he left, all hell broke loose.
My best advice, don’t trust anything. I was told many times “ trust both they say and only 1/2 of what you see”. Best advise I ever got. Thank him for whatever and play nice when he is and don’t engage with his monster self. They remind me of Jekyll and Hyde. Just be very cautious about everything. The best thing you can do is detach and gal. That behavior will mess with your mind if you don’t detach. I know it is very hard but it is what needs to be done for your sanity.
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I am curious; when your MLC monster shows up, is it like a different face? I mean in a physical sense. H's facial lines are different - like I've never seen before
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Mine has started playing Mr Nice Guy too. I have to admit, I'm constantly wondering what his motive is? I wonder if he's coming out of MLC and has just started to be nice as he realises that we have to co-parent, but it doesn't make my brain think overtime. I wonder if he's being genuine or not. I get 'sorry' a lot. I get 'I don't want to argue'. I recently got 'I just wanted to say our kids are gorgeous and are turning out really well and you're doing a great job'. I couldn't have found it more patronising, to be honest.
Today, I have lost my sh** and have come across as a complete loony and am annoyed at myself, while he remains 'Mr Nice Guy'.
I think I preferred Monster. :) I don't, of course, but Mr Nice Guy is making thinking 'What's going on? Something is not right'.
On Thursday he called and asked me if I'd like to go out for a meal with him and the kids. I declined as he is still with the OW and I'm not getting involved in all of that.
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There is an article on HB regarding that. I can't remember which article it was but it was one of the Q and A sessions. Maybe someone can help out with that.
HB said that when Mr. Nice Guy appears, just lay low. If he continues to be nice, he may be coming out of his tunnel a little. If he monsters you AT ALL for an unnecessary reason, go right back to ignoring him because he is not near ready yet.
That's all I can offer on that. I have found it to be true in my situation, though.
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Oh I totally get that!
Last night I got the most vile emails from Monster (we are starting legal proceedings) I have ever gotten. Then a Mr. nice guy email this morning. It's all horrible. Mr. Nice Monster used to get me pulled back in emotionally, but last nights were so bad, that this morning I am actually feeling grateful to be rid of H for the first time since BD.
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My monster is almost gone now but when he was monstering he was channeling his abusive father. His voice became EXACTLY like his father's. I knew his father, I know the difference between my H's voice and his father's. He was possessed by his father. The same intonation, the same expressions (according to MIL). And then he would forget these incidents as if they never happened. Just adding to the whole sense that he was possessed.
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Well mine is no where near done yet.
But it definitely is the new pattern. Wallowing, pitiful, sick and drained looking....or Mr nice guy offering to help with his kids and bringing in gifts, and texting like we are BFFs.
It does make you suspicious. I assume part of it is the guilt, part of it is trying to pretend reality isn't reality....and maybe some of it is anchor checking.
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Mine goes really creepy psycho style. :o
Cold dead eyes that tell you he just doesn't give a toss. He could probably choke you and walk away without a care in the world.
And often he looks a bit...manic...sorta like a twisted jokery laugh to him. Like he is amused by his own nastiness.
Occasionally he will yell and scream, but the really scarey stuff is the slightly twisted smirk as he digs you with a painful remark in a low 'calm' voice.
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Mine goes really creepy psycho style. :o
Cold dead eyes that tell you he just doesn't give a toss. He could probably choke you and walk away without a care in the world.
And often he looks a bit...manic...sorta like a twisted jokery laugh to him. Like he is amused by his own nastiness.
Occasionally he will yell and scream, but the really scarey stuff is the slightly twisted smirk as he digs you with a painful remark in a low 'calm' voice.
I remember this all too well.
The way it switched right in front of me was scary! It didn't seem like he had any control over it either which scared the heck out of me.
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Yeah..he has always done a smaller version of it. The switch flips and he was gone for the night...but then the next day he was back to normal.
Now..you just can't flip the switch back. Don't know when it will go off...and who knows when he will 'reset'. ::)
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This is all so interesting Mortes, GIG, Searching and FIMG:
My H gets "monstery" and yells a bit but nothing like you are describing.
He is typically not "monstery" unless I hit a trigger or ask a question.
MCS
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MLer for me flips between them. He but tries different methods to get his own way. Its definitely manipulation in my case.
I prefer dealing with mean monster. Its predictable and you don't feel bad for standing your ground. With nice monster, you feel like you have to justify yourself and then start questioning yourself. Either way in my case, he's trying to get me to do something I've already said no to but it is hard not to fall sort when nice monster comes into play. I have to remind myself of my decision making. Hope that makes sense
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Besides the weird physical characteristics that I have seen my H go through, I am now seeing a core value being broken.
He now seems willing to go back on his word. His word was his honor previous to all this. Even putting aside the unfaithfulness (not that that should be put aside, but just for example's sake), the going back on his word regarding finances is something I never would have expected. This was a core value for him. Not needing contracts - that would be insulting- because his word was golden. And it truly was! But now I find that he's going back on his word with me. The mother of his children. I haven't done anything to provoke it. He is now rationalizing stuff I never ever would have predicted two years ago. This is a core value of his. He seems to be truly breaking apart.
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MB and GG, that is exactly the stuff I'm talking about. Did other people witness this? Or is it just for LBS?
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Oh I notice that! That shark eye! Empty, crazy look, like somebody is swiching him on and off from distance! Dr Jackyl and Mt Hide, flips in the sec!
I notice that for the long time I didn't see that shark look...
But also, a very interesting thing happend at the BD 2, some 4 years ago... Unfortunatelly I didn't know about MLC...
It happens just a few days after he admits, after I pushed really hard, that there is the OW! I immediatelly throw him out... 4 days latter we met for a drink, he told me a storry that happend evening before.... But he seemes that during LESS THAN 24 houss he grew old at least 20 years and lost 20 kilos! An old man shaking was standing in fron of me!
The story was: the evening before I went out with my friend and we were walking at the city center (our town has cca 1 milllion people) and he was walking with OW and some frienf for the first time in the open! He saw me some 50 meters from them.... I didn't notice him... He told me that he started to shaking... OW asked what is going on? He told her and he said that she knew the same moment that he will never going to leave me!
he grew old in less than 15 hours!!!
He recovered from that... But that was and still is hard to explain!
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MB and GG, that is exactly the stuff I'm talking about. Did other people witness this? Or is it just for LBS?
Mine tends to only monster at me as far as I know. I haven't been monstered at since I learned to stop pushing for answers that ''I needed''. I am not scared of a healthy conflict of it resolves an issue...but I had to learn that when his switch flips...there is no resolving anything. So I learned to avoid 'triggering' him.
But in saying that...MIL is conflict avoidant as well..so if he gets ''in a mood'' they just ignore each other. I can't imagine him doing that to her, as I have never seen him do it...but when he was a teenager they went through some dark years together (suicide attempts, self harm, etc). And I don't know the facts now, but they both make little comments here and there that things aren't the best over there right now either.
In regards to other people..he keeps his mask well and truly in place. At work he was always seen as a funny, happy, family man who had it all. If he couldn't put on that face he calls in sick to work. (6 + times since BD almost 5 months ago). BUT he has said that he has smarted off or cursed at other people at his work lately..which is something he would NEVER have done before. So I estimate it will not be long before he starts getting pulled up at work for some of the things he is saying to people as it is so out of character.
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Oh I notice that! That shark eye! Empty, crazy look, like somebody is swiching him on and off from distance! Dr Jackyl and Mt Hide, flips in the sec!
I notice that for the long time I didn't see that shark look...
But also, a very interesting thing happend at the BD 2, some 4 years ago... Unfortunatelly I didn't know about MLC...
It happens just a few days after he admits, after I pushed really hard, that there is the OW! I immediatelly throw him out... 4 days latter we met for a drink, he told me a storry that happend evening before.... But he seemes that during LESS THAN 24 houss he grew old at least 20 years and lost 20 kilos! An old man shaking was standing in fron of me!
The story was: the evening before I went out with my friend and we were walking at the city center (our town has cca 1 milllion people) and he was walking with OW and some frienf for the first time in the open! He saw me some 50 meters from them.... I didn't notice him... He told me that he started to shaking... OW asked what is going on? He told her and he said that she knew the same moment that he will never going to leave me!
he grew old in less than 15 hours!!!
He recovered from that... But that was and still is hard to explain!
It is funny you saying that. Mine sometimes shows up and I remember one of the first times he had only been gone a few weeks and he looked 10 years older. This man who has always looked young for his age...his face was tired and gaunt, you could see the wrinkles next to his eyes, he just looked so...dull and worn out. It was the weirdest feeling in the world.
Knowing every single freckle and wrinkle and inch of his body, and then he shows up and looks like he has aged a decade. It was so surreal.
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Bride:
My H has been acting so differently and started hanging around with his younger partners (30's to early 40's) instead of age-appropriate. He has been using foul language and his ow is a nurse where he works. I know there is some crude language and lots of drinking when with the younger guys, so I wonder how his attitude at work will affect him. He was called in once for language (I think), but since he's at the top of the ladder I imagine it will all get swept under the rug since he is almost irreplaceable.
He used to be the friendly, funny, charismatic guy who everyone loved and wanted to work with. I wonder if that will change.
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MB,
it is surreal, isn't it? He looks older now, depressed, tired...
But at that time he INSTANTLY looked older 15-20 years during ... Overnight!!!
Old skinny man.... He actually went to a bussines trip for a week and asked if he cna came home?
Unfortunatelly I found this site years after that....
But better latter than never!
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And don't try to "kitchen table" a divorce with monster no matter how much they push for it! Jeez. Monster convinced me to try it to save legal fees. I made a couple of comments that were not even statements, but points up for discussion ( the relative value of some real estate and that we don't really know the value and maybe it should be appraised) and holy crap. MONSTER called me selfish, threatened to get nasty and "torch everything".
I guess like teenagers, MLCers become so difficult that you actually are relieved when they move out.
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MB and GG, that is exactly the stuff I'm talking about. Did other people witness this? Or is it just for LBS?
In my H's case, the main target actually was OW, something he admitted to, and he regarded it as one of her main functions (to put up with monster), to a lesser extent MIL and myself. And with myself he almost never did it in private, he was calm and nice in private, he always wanted witnesses to see monster with me. Honestly, I think most of the time he wants witnesses to hear or see him.
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My monster is almost gone now but when he was monstering he was channeling his abusive father. His voice became EXACTLY like his father's. I knew his father, I know the difference between my H's voice and his father's. He was possessed by his father. The same intonation, the same expressions (according to MIL). And then he would forget these incidents as if they never happened. Just adding to the whole sense that he was possessed.
Crazy you say that. H has become his father and doing exactly what his father did to him to my kids. His father got with someone else and basically pushed h and his brother aside for his new family. H seems like he is stuck in that time period.
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I just wanted to quickly share some observations I made yesterday and the day before. I feel as if I am standing in the calm of the eye of a hurricane. H has been pretty much respectful and helpful toward me during this time. However, the night before last he spun into an agitated manic state that included hours long monstering at/about: MIL, OW, his patients, his nephew, sister, half-brother. I have stayed out of it completely, but have been able to hear what is going on. It's as if some dam broke and he can't control the flow of the dirty water out of his mouth and the anger and annoyance about everything seems to be very intense. I mean he was sitting there on the phone with his nephew, insulting his sister (the nephew's mother) using foul language that would be like calling your sister a SOB, with MIL sitting in the same room, so he in a way is insulting his mother at the same time.
It's as if he has at some level realized his problems are FOO related, not me, and he is lashing out about that. At least that is what it looks like to me. And the way OW fits in to all this is she is a stand-in for himself as a child, and he is acting the role of his father, so turning the tables on the abuse he got.
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I thought I’d bump this discussion up as I’ve been dealing with a high energy monster for a year now and no signs of it getting better... in fact just gets worse.
I’m getting monster through text, lawyers, passive aggressive behaviours, flaunting OW, and extreme control and emotional abuse through any means possible. My parents, friends and even solicitor as get some form of monster when he doesn’t get his way. He is currently ticking every single box for narcissist monster. I’m in therapy and started to explore the idea that maybe he has always been NPD but have started to accept that right now it doesn’t matter as I just have to deal with MLCer is monster and narcissist mode right now and some how get through it mentally stable myself.
I re read this thread and related to people’s accounts of monster. Especially those who talk about their displays of anger, particularly through passive aggression and control and the evil expression and smile when they know they are causing pain & soo many others things.
I also went back and read:
https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_monster.html
He ticks every box. Just not convinced in my case that he’s monster to protect himself. I believe it is personal to me and that he gets some pleasure out of hurting me at whatever cost. He’s gettig still getting his narcastic supply from me hence me wondering if he is NPD.
It’s a tough one and as RCR said I may not know if it’s tempprary narc until he comes out of MLC.
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Have you ever met the Prisoner, mitten?
Just curious.....
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Have you ever met the Prisoner, mitten?
Just curious.....
I think shortly after BD while he was still living at home and I didn’t know about OW I got a look from him that will haunt me forever. It was a look of pain. He looked me straight in the eye whilst I was hugging the girls on the sofa and it was so uncomfortable that I had to look away and walk out of the room as it made me tearful. It was a look as if to say I really don’t want to do this but I can’t help it or it could have been a look to let me know how much I’ve hurt him (which was all I heard at the beginning). But I believe it was prisoner. Another time I got a call from what I now know as OW’s number and I suspected it was her number. When I answer it I pretended I did not recognise him and asked who it was and I had a very brief glimpse of old H’s voice when he said it’s me. Before he moved in with OW I also got a call in the middle of the night about our house alarm but I believe it was made up and he just wanted to ring to hear my voice.
Other than that- no sign of prisoner in a year. But then I’ve had no direct face to face verbal contact with him since last year and since he’s been living with OW. Now it’s just constant manic monster with no signs that prisoner is even in there.
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I only asked cos it seemed like you've had sooo much Monster (as have I), and my short, fleeting encounters with Prisoner/real H have been sooo eye-opening.
Like, for one brief, shining moment....THERE HE IS!
I don't speak to H so it's been many months since I got "that phone call." But....that's ok.
I didn't dream that phone call.
He is "in there."
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I have seen lots of women on here say they think their spouses have NPD. I don't know your spouses to make that call definitively, but to be perfectly honest, I have not seen one description that suggests to me that anyone has a narcissist spouse. Especially considering it is a lifelong condition and you would not suddenly notice it in MLC. In fact, I suspect a narcissist would not have an MLC because their behavior is just lifelong and doesn't start at mid-age nor does it stop. It's always been there. Selfish self-centered behavior does not make someone a narcissist. Monster does not make someone a narcissist.
To be honest, I don't know how anyone could confuse MLC and narcissism and think they even overlap. They are very different beasts. They may both be obnoxious, they both may have marital issues and split from their spouses, but it just is NOT the same thing.
I'm starting to suspect that what we call "MLC" on here is actually a number of different conditions that have some similarities and may superficially look and even start out the same, but actually are distinct conditions with different likely outcomes. I keep going back in my mind to the survey RCR did and she found that all of the reconciliations involved clinging boomerangs. Then you have other contact types. A clinging boomerang never detaches from their spouse so it makes it easier for them to come back. If someone vanishes, they have disconnected. They may start off similarly, say the same things, even act a bit the same, but in the end, I don't think these actually are the same thing. I don't think it is so much a game of Russian Roulette which ones are going to make an attempt to return and which ones aren't. I think with time if someone studied all this, it would be clear what symptoms can be used to predict a return.
Yet, we are stuck with saying like standing is for you, no expectations, blah blah blah blah. It's a rather primitive approach.
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GonerinGhana
I’m not sure I agree with you that naracists can’t have a MLC nor do I agree with you that they are different beasts. You do not know my spouse, story or circumstances so to suggest that you haven’t seen one description that suggests NPD comes across as quite patronising. No one on here is an expert- and I believe we should only express opinions in a thoughtful way which creates discussion not the way in which you are expressing your opinions. It’s very offensive and insensitive. Peoples situations have many variables and complexities.
I have been working with a therapist who I’m sorry is far more qualified to make these jusdgments and has worked with many woman victims of narcasitss. Part of this work is to look back for red flags and there are many that suggest he may have been wearing a mask that MLC has triggered to slip. As a therapist I’m working on why I dinnt notice these flags and have been reading that the statistics are high for a therapist to become involved with one. Other factors such as strict cultural expectations can mean someone can hold the mask much longer therefore NPD is not overt it’s civert- I suggest you read a bit about this. . I’m still working through this and trying to figure it out as it’s a big factor in my standing. I’m not saying I fully believe he is NPD rather than MLC yet.
I come to this forum to help me process thoughts and ideas and to get some suppport and reassurance and unfortunately from some of your posts GonerinGhana you come across as patronising and as if you know more than anyone else. You make comments that you seem convinced come from some kind of expert stance. Your post is evidence a very narrow minded view- unfortunately there are few other like you. You say” I can’t make that call definitively but to be perfectly honest I have not seen one description that suggests to me a naracisst spouse”. How on earth can you come to
This conclusion from a support forum and a few posts- that are by no means providing you with enough insight in to someone else’s life or circumstances??
I’m sorry if I come across as harsh but recently I’ve been reading long time posters who seem to be bullying others on here in a very unkind way and as a newbie makes me reluctant to post sometimes. I think this needs to be nipped in the bud. Life as a LBS is hard enough.
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You think disagreeing is bullying???
Go look up a clinical definition of NPD. The reason I say that I have not seen anyone that appears to be NPD is because 1-having certain traits that are common of NPD does not by itself make it NPD, 2-I don't see people saying their spouses act this way with others, like in a work context, or at the supermarket. They could be doing that but without that information, the picture is incomplete.
And yes, you do need a proper diagnosis, and I am not saying I am qualified to give one. But an LBS, unless they are clinical psychologist or psychiatrist, isn't qualified either. And it may also be hard for someone to see their own spouse's mental illness clearly in any case as they are going to be biased and/or in denial.
As for a therapist working with women whose husbands allegedly have NPD. Well, then clearly she isn't qualified to be diagnosing them as the number one rule for diagnosis is firsthand examination by the person diagnosing them. She can say they have narcissistic traits, but if she hasn't examined their spouses themselves, then she doesn't know for sure. I don't know if your therapist is clinically qualified but I would hazard a guess most counselors and therapists people on here are seeing are trained in providing therapy, not diagnosing illnesses.
I have never claimed to have any superior knowledge about mental illness here, it's quite the opposite. What I am saying is people going around saying my spouse is NPD, my spouse is bi-polar, my spouse is psychotic, etc etc as if they have an actual diagnosis when they don't, means nothing. I know what I DON'T know. A lot of people think they DO know things when they don't or insist they know things when they don't.
My husband is a doctor and at one point a few months ago he kept monstering and calling me "psychotic" and "sick in the head." I said OK, if you think that, then I am perfectly happy to go to a psychiatrist and get a diagnosis. Book me an appointment. That shut him up, right away. He knew and I knew that there was no basis for what he was saying.
I came here to learn about MLC. You can't make any advancement in knowledge if everyone falls in line and spouts off the party line like sheep. Differences of opinion are not unhealthy, they are not personal attacks or attempts to act superior.
As for old timers, well as long as they are talking from their own experiences and not just repeating tag lines, then yes, newbies should be listening to them. But I know from my own experience, that it takes the progression of MLC for the LBS to actually understand and see why some advice applies. If you aren't at a particular stage yet, some of the advice from oldtimers may actually seem stupid; it did to me, and I am willing to admit that at first I resented some of the advice and thought the oldtimers were know-it-alls too but that my opinion changed over time. As time progressed and my H has reached different stages, I was able to see how the advice applied. But you have to be in the thick of a stage to really comprehend it.
I will admit I have never shared my entire story on here publicly. Maybe sometime in the future I will but I have my reasons for not doing it. There are a few members who know it, but I think they would agree that I have firsthand insight into one aspect of MLC that no one else on here has and I do speak with confidence about that area as I have absolutely no need to monkey brain about it as everyone else does. But I speak with confidence based on my experience. I can't change my experience and I do not need to make apologies for it. It's what I have lived and what makes me think the way I do.
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I think the following article would be good for all newbies who don't like hearing what us old timers have to say:
https://thestagesandlessonsofmidlife.org/a-piece-of-advice-time-and-the-mid-life-crisis/
Of course, you may still think we are wrong, but that's OK.
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First of all I just want to make it clear that I am not diagnosing my husband with any mental illness. This forum is not to make or confirm any kind of diagnosis. I see that’s it’s purpose is to be able to chose to freely express thoughts and feelings related to the traumas we share as LBS’s and MLC. I was simply expressing a painful issue I am trying to work through and process. I’m not sure my therapists qualifications have anything to do with anything so have no idea why you are continuing to prove a point about diagnosis. I feel you are missing the point.
I am fully accepting and open to all LBS and especially old timers views, opinions and insights as you will see from my thread and other posts. The insights and opinions I have no problem with- it’s actually the way in which it’s delivered I have a problem with, especially when my point has clearly been misinterpreted.
Again just for clarity- I’m not asking for you to diagnose my husband nor am I trying to officially diagnose him but I am entitled to explore what ever I feel in my own situation without being critised. All I ask is that you be mindful of this.
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For mine in the 6 months or so leading up to bomb drop, I noticed a much quicker temper. Snapping at me for certain things that wouldn’t have been that big a deal in the past. I found it frustrating but assumed it was her learning to be more assertive combined with some extra stress since she had started working. I consider the stages of grief (Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance). I think she was in the anger stage of her crisis for those months.
Post BD It changed from being mad about something to a very intentional vicious hurtful attack. Trying to find anyway to twist the knife and inflict more pain. This was the monster I experienced. I saw the change in her eyes too. The first time I read posts here about the shark eyes, my jaw hit the floor. It really seemed like some kind of pure evil took over. The comments about the prisoner also resonated with me. There were times it really seems like she is being held against her will by the OM. I realize now it’s a personality trapped in the crisis. As I’ve moved closer to acceptance dealing with my own grief, I am letting go of the anger but then I see her monster at me and I’m more of a spectator just observing the behavior not emotionally affected by it.
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I have to politely disagree that some of the spouses on here aren't suffering from something else. It is such a fine line between MLC and several other mental disorders, that can all be mixed and combined...or just part of MLC.
It was actually intense research into NPD before bomb drop, that lead me to this forum...
I have been pretty clear that I always knew something was 'wrong' with Beast. NPD and bi-polar highly up there. He was medicated as a teen. So I am not just pulling this out of thin air.
Sure he was a good husband, my best friend...yada yada....but he always had these 'depressive episodes' and talked about not being able to attach to other people which was seen throughout (did not keep friends outside of me, childhood or otherwise). He was very self centred and the things he did do where for a ''oh what a nice guy'' face. The 2-3 years before BD he consistently talked about how energy draining it was to keep up face at work. In NPD world this is the masks they wear for different people.
He would routinely tell me how he could 'change personality like that' and 'just cut people out of his life' and he 'doesn't have a real him, just pieces he has taken from people he likes'.
He has always had a ....personality switch. When he was mad there were no rules...Shark eyes were on, there was no getting through to him, and he was cruel. Before BD this would only last a few hours....but....a year or so before BD the switch was harder and harder to flip back...until I guess the fuse broke.
Part of the problem was...no matter what mask he wore..I could see the real him. And I think that scared the absolute life out of him. Having someone know what is BS before he even says it...someone who knows the flamboyant stories are just that...He needed someone to worship him and believe whatever he said. After 14 years...that wasn't me anymore.
Instinctively I knew this as soon as I knew who OW was. It was like watching a train wreck before it even left the station. Watching him try and recreate the dynamic he had with me as a teenager...because he needs that energy to keep him going. He needs every word believed and bowed down to.
But regardless if he is bi polar, or NPD, or an Early MLCer.....
Something is truly wrong, not normal, and he ticks every box for both. And the way to deal with a MLCer or NPD are very similar. And the crazy you have to deal with are similar. So I stick around here...with people who know the crazy and can laugh when stuff is tough..because that is the only way we get through it.
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Sounds like my first H, Mort. Mentally not right in the head. He never was.
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I have to politely disagree that some of the spouses on here aren't suffering from something else.
Some, yes. Even RCR leaves it clear not all here have a MLC. However a person can have a have a pre-existing mood or personality disorder and be in MLC.
But the behaviours associated with the personality or mood disorder will not be a surprise or a shock to the LBS. Also, personalities disorders, like NPD do not show in middle age, they have been there for a long time.
But regardless if he is bi polar, or NPD, or an Early MLCer.....
He has always had a ....personality switch. When he was mad there were no rules...Shark eyes were on, there was no getting through to him, and he was cruel. Before BD this would only last a few hours...
And you didn't find it strange? He clearly had issues. Those issues, may, of course, had got worst. Either because of MLC, age and/or lack or medication.
However, those of you with spouses who clearly had mental issues before MLC cannot assume that is valid for the rest of us.
The difference between MCL and a mood or personality disorder is that MLC goes away for most, but the mood or personality disorder does not. That is, someone who has a mood or personality that may be having a MLC may have his/her MLC ending but the personality or mood disorder will still be there.
For example, as OldPilot's mother, who had a MLC and is bipolar. Her bipolar remains.
He can't be bipolar and NPD. Since you write he always had depressive episodes, depression or bipolar seem more fitting that NPD. What was he medicated for when he was young?
The thing is, Mort and Mitten, HS is a site for people whose spouse is having a MLC. We are not equipped to help those whose spouses have a mood or personality disorder or may have become a mood disorder sufferer. Unlike personality disorders, mood disorders can show at any age.
RCR/HS stages of MLC are different from HS ones. RCR does not consider anger, depression, denial, withdrawal stages.
https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_stages.html
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RCR/HS stages of MLC are different from HS ones. RCR does not consider anger, depression, denial, withdrawal stages.
What?
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The thing is, Mort and Mitten, HS is a site for people whose spouse is having a MLC. We are not equipped to help those whose spouses have a mood or personality disorder or may have become a mood disorder sufferer. Unlike personality disorders, mood disorders can show at any age.
It's important to note though that 0% percent of people here have a spouse who has been "diagnosed" MLC, since it is not recognized globally as anything other than an existential crisis. And since this site is made up completely of people bringing their own personal experiences and perceptions to the table, not a regulated group of vetted experts trained specifically in an unbiased way about MLC, we are free to support anyone who needs it. We're just as equipped for mood disorder spouses or narc abuse victims as we are for anyone. because we're just people helping other people who didn't sign up to have our marriages blown up. We all have more in common than not.
When something as simple as "shark eyes" turns into a huge debate because we don't have pictures of our spouses or a regulated example to show what is meant, it's hard to think we're all going to come to one agreement about what "MLC" as a concept is. It's really not that big of a deal that we don't. If something doesn't resonate that someone says, move on to another thread where there is more kinship. It is about support, not validation. Give what you can, get where you can. That's my opinion on it, anyway.
My personal belief, for what it is worth, is that MLC is an umbrella term like COPD that covers many things that happen at midlife for different internal and external reasons. My spouse was diagnosed by mental health professionals as bipolar, and I will never know for sure if further treatment would have helped him, since after several months he decided it wasn't for him and he didn't want to be bipolar, so he wasn't going to be. ::) Very MLC-ish attitude as well. Were there red flags? Like Mortesbride, I saw them too. But no one is perfect and it wasn't as extreme as the midlife crisis antics. He was my best friend and we were together from such a young age, plus I was raised in a dysfunctional environment that didn't push me to look for something healthier. I wouldn't have given up on him even if it was one of his 'bad phases' (which ranged from depressive, more commonly, to erratic). The good times were, to my belief, good enough.
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Well I know from what I read that NPD get's worse with age. Many are covert in their teens, twenties...the symptoms aren't as bad and then they hit their 30s, 40s + and they get worse with age.
Who get's to distinguish if that is NPD or MLC if they aren't to bad until they are 40? Could be either...no one knows... until ''Time will tell''.
His occasional depressive moods, his mood swings...they weren't new to me...they weren't a surprise.
But the fact he couldn't come out of it was. The fact he was suddenly throwing bowls against my wall after 12 years of never doing that was. Screaming at the kids and trying to kick them...that was new. Suddenly needing to preen in front of a mirror just to go to the shop for milk was....needing to be glued to his phone to speak to this girl from work was...Obsessing over going to the gym and talking about the guys (in their 20s) at his work always partying and living it up...
Just because he was moody and had episodes...doesn't mean that I wasn't shocked or surprised at the drastic sudden new changes of BD.
Of course I found his switch strange. But I came from a messed up family. No one I knew was 'normal'. I am used to people having problems. No one is perfect. You gotta love the imperfections. But my husband had off days 1-4 days every month or two. The rest of the time he was pretty fantastic. Seemed normal to me.
And you can absolutely have bipolar and NPD at the same time.
You are right that this site is aimed for MLC. But it can help people whose spouses are suffering these other things..because they are so similar. The advice for both is similar. The crazy and support is similar. The only difference is that ''time will tell'' if it was MLC or the disorder. But at the same time advice for one MLC is useless on another MLCer so...at the end of the day we are all just trying to cope for ourselves and let them get on with it. No matter what they are suffering from we can't do anything about it.
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RCR/HS stages of MLC are different from HS ones. RCR does not consider anger, depression, denial, withdrawal stages.
What?
These are RCR MLC stages:
1. Separation
a. Rejection & Refusal
b. Resentment
c. Escape & Avoid (Covert Depression)
High-Energy: Reply
OR
Low-Energy: Wallow
2. Liminality or Liminal/Overt Depression
3. Rebirth
4. Reintegration
from: https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_stages.html
It was always so. RCR always said she does not consider anger, depression, denial, withdrawal stages because they are present at several MLC stages.
Replay itself is not a stage. It is a one of the two types of the sub-stage Escape & Avoid.
HB stages are different from RCR. Ones. HB are more similar to Conways one's, RCR ones to Jung's theory.
When questions like your "what" come up, Thunder, I really miss DGU. He knows the articles by memory.
Not sure if theren't isn't anyone who has been diagnosed MLC by a therapist. Most haven't but there remains a difference between something that was already there for year and the sudden change we see in MLCers.
Many also do not have spouses who have been diagnosed with anything, even those whose spouses have issues. Others, like yourself, have a spouse diagnosed with bipolar. Even if I think he is in MCL and it got consufed with bipolar.
You and I had a MLC. We weren't diagnosed with anything - in my case I was briefly diagnosed with situational depression because of what has happened - and we are both out of our MLC.
It is also impostan to say that pshychiatrists and psychologist often wrongly diagnosed people. Lets say, bipolar for borderline, or the other way round.
It is also important to say that an accurate bipolar diagnose can take up to ten years and often does.
No Mort, people don't really have bipolar and NPD. What happens is that when in the manic phase, bipolars can mimic nascisism. From what you wrote your husband only seemed to have down/depressed phases, than be normal.
If he didn't have manic phases, then he may not be bipolar but suffer from major depression (unipolar disorder). Also, NPD does not just show a few days a month or for a few hours.
There may be contact points, but they are different things.
Things are similar but one cannot advise someone to stand for someone who will come out of it if the matter is bipolar, borderline, NPD.
Another difference is that mood disorders need medications and therapy, and it does work - unless is extreme cases, but that does not apply to MLC. As for personality disorders, borderlines, or some borderlines, responde well to certain therapies and life changes. Sometimes that are given meds to help stablize the mood, even if, for now, no med can change the PD.
For now, no med or therapy can make bipolar or major depression or schizophrenia go away for good either.
No one is perfect and people with mental illness deserve love and to be loved. But there is a certain level of crazy, outside of MLC, that is pretty obvious and not normal.
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No Mort, people don't really have bipolar and NPD. What happens is that when in the manic phase, bipolars can mimic nascisism. From what you wrote your husband only seemed to have down/depressed phases, than be normal. No he definitely had what could be considered manic phases...
Also, NPD does not just show a few days a month or for a few hours. You are correct it is always there, progressively gets worse with age...they are incredibly good at hiding it for the most part, and I met him at 19. So is he NPD and it is just now getting to a point where it is outwardly visible to others and myself at a more advanced stage, or is he an unmediated bipolar? Or is he a guy who suffered with depressive episodes that is now having a MLC?! Who knows...
There may be contact points, but they are different things.
Things are similar but one cannot advise someone to stand for someone who will come out of it if the matter is bipolar, borderline, NPD. Of course you can't. But we can't know if it is MLC or something more sinister until the end right?! Unless someone manages to drag them in kicking and screaming for help. ::)
No one is perfect and people with mental illness deserve love and to be loved. But there is a certain level of crazy, outside of MLC, that is pretty obvious and not normal. Yes and this is highly subjective.
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NPD is far more obvious than bipolar, even at 19 or younger. I have never meet someone with true NPD that was able to hide it.
Age tends to made both mood and personality disorders worst unless people seek help and follow it.
If I had to guess, I would go with bipolar (or cyclothymia, milder illness) for your husband. Would not discart Major Depression, but there is the mania and technically, even if there has only been an episode of mania it is bipolar or cyclothymia.
Regardless, your husband may he having a MLC on top of whatever was already there. MCL would make the pre-existing condition worst. At least for the duration of MLC.
Of course you can't. But we can't know if it is MLC or something more sinister until the end right?! Unless someone manages to drag them in kicking and screaming for help. ::)
We can know if pre-existent signs existed or not. We can know if someone had depressed and manic episodes before MLC. That already indicates something more than MLC. Borderline is also too obvious to be missed. The crazy of borderline is crazy crazy. Impossible not to see it.
Normal is subjective, but there are behaviours that clearly are not normal. Manic is not normal, cutting is not normal (cutting is normal both in bipolar and borderline), hearing voices and doing what the voices say is not normal (it is schizophrenia), etc.
What does it mean for someone that has a pre-existing mental illness to have MLC? That the pre-existing mental illness will not go away. Will said mental illness be worst after MLC? It may. Or the person may realize they really need help. Hard to say because often people with mental illness never look for help.
The person will also be older when the crisis is over, the pre-existing mental illness, that either was untreated, or was being treated but during MLC was not, probably is worst. MLC lifestyle and stresses also don't help the previously existing mental illness.
Only you can decide if it makes sense to stand for someone who had previous issues and did not look for help before MLC.
Lets say on top of whatever was there your husband is having a MLC. Do you think he will look for help once MLC is over? Can you see yourself living with him again if he does not look for help once MLC is over?
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What does RCR stand for?
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What does RCR stand for?
Rollercoasterider, the woman who created Hero Spouse.
"Welcome to The Hero's Spouse
Is your spouse having a Midlife Crisis (MLC)? Is he or she depressed, cheating, talking about divorce, acting moody or angry? Do you want to learn how to deal with someone experiencing MLC?
This website is for the spouses of those experiencing a crisis of identity wherein the person often sees no alternative but to abandon his marriage. Though the identity crisis I focus on is the Midlife Crisis, crises of other life transitions may also apply.
Thank you for visiting The Hero's Spouse. I'm Kenda-Ruth—known as Rollercoasterider in our community forum. Though I recognize exceptions, I do not advocate divorce. I was a Stander. My husband and I have been reconciled and rebuilding since 2008." from: https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/
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I've always likened what happened to my ex to BPD. Blaming everyone else? BPD. Impulive behavior? BPD. Unclear or unstable self-image? BPD. Extreme emotional swings? BPD. Explosive anger? BPD. Unstable relationships? BPD. Chronic feelings of emptiness? BPD. Projection of their feelings onto others?BPD.
Might he have had BPD and hid it for years? Sure. Might andropause have brought it to the forefront? Why not? Anything is possible. All I remember for sure is that all of the techniques used to keep a person with BPD traits on an even keel worked well for my ex. But I could not keep that up forever. For those with a loved one with a mental illness who can sacrifice their own needs to maintain their loved one, my hat is off to you. I decided I did not want to walk on eggshells. I did not want to lose myself to his projection. I did not want to stand and be abused day after day, because a person who treats you with disrespect is abusing you, even if someone wants to pretend constant disrespect isn't abuse.
Mine didn’t want me or anything from me so I stepped aside. Does he have MLC or BPD or both? I don't know. Would I take him back? Don't know that yet, either, as he still hasn't crossed my line of no return. (OP or an unforgivable act).
Whatever your monster was or is, IMO it's less about would you take back what WAS than have they crossed whatever your line is, and would you entertain taking back what they ARE if they show up at your door.
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Ah!! Thanks! I was thinking some kind of personality disorder, makes much more sense now.
Another thought outside of MLC is the psychological effect of having an affair and leaving for the affair partner. I think you have to project and blame the ex spouse simply to live with the guilt of your actions. If your ex spouse isn't a horrible monster than you must be a pretty sh!ty person to break up a family and marriage and abandon your kids. Instead of facing your own guilt and shame, you blame and project. The real monster didn't start for me until after the start of the PA.
I know MLC is a little different but I'm sure basic psychological elements enter into it.
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Probably
Update on the ex a-hole..monster still going strong taking it out on people he can't intimidate or control and tries to.Still doesn't like the word no. So it's time to throw a fit.
This is 5 years running folks no sign of burning out.
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Many also do not have spouses who have been diagnosed with anything, even those whose spouses have issues. Others, like yourself, have a spouse diagnosed with bipolar. Even if I think he is in MCL and it got consufed with bipolar.
I wanted to believe that too, Anjae, when I first came here in 2012. Believe me. It soothed me greatly that there was some sort of predetermined assumption that fit beliefs I was comfortable with and interested in that stated this was all going to be like a bad dream and he would "wake up" and go back to normal if I could just hold ground for an extended amount of time.
But detachment over these years has allowed me to take objective view of my life with xH. There were episodes throughout. Most notably was the episode he had around 1997, when he was in his 20s. During that year he lost his apartment (even though he had a full time job plus military reserve service and no other bills), lost his full time job, threw himself completely into reenacting and started to live as his "persona" in his daily life (including a handlebar moustache and long dangly earrings, which weren't even punk rock for a guy in his 20s back then!), stopped bathing regularly, went pale in color to the point that it's very apparent in pictures with other people who are normally lighter than him in skin tone, and instead of seeking veterinary help when his cat was obviously dropping weight and having problems, he detached and let his cat ail to the point of needing to be euthanized (which itself wouldn't have happened had I not intervened).
He later went back to "normal" and didn't understand why he did those things, but they were still part of his life. I looked at it like he was "going through something" as well and didn't hold him accountable (though I did end our engagement during that time). Once he was "better," (and he truly was, by making life decisions that I really agreed with, cleaning up, staying employed again, etc) life went on. I had my own life, as we weren't really entangled in any way other than emotionally at that point, so as long as feelings were good, I was good to continue pursuing my life.
But it didn't last, and more depressive episodes came. More friends were run off. More "personas" developed. He had just never turned on ME. And that was the part I was focusing on. I loved him. He was my best friend, and I was a 'match' because I still had a lot to work on. But there is really no denying that from nature or nurture or a combo of both - my xH has some long standing problems that have always impacted his life and his identity. His prior major episode did not resolve them. I had hoped the MD, psychiatrist, and therapist working with him over 8 years ago would be the right team to get him where he needed to be. They were not, or at least, he did not give them the chance to be. I don't believe another discombobulation of his brain for a long period of time like this will be either. Or rather, I just accept that this is who he is: a person who struggles with chemical imbalance and identity issues, no matter what they are called.
You and I had a MLC. We weren't diagnosed with anything - in my case I was briefly diagnosed with situational depression because of what has happened - and we are both out of our MLC.
I didn't seek a diagnosis for anything, but I am confident clinical depression would be a no brainer. ;) I'm not surprised situational depression because of the BD and ensuing events. We are all likely PTSD sufferers, too. I would say you more than most due to the aggressive actions of MrJ. How could we all not be?
It is also impostan to say that pshychiatrists and psychologist often wrongly diagnosed people. Lets say, bipolar for borderline, or the other way round.
It is also important to say that an accurate bipolar diagnose can take up to ten years and often does.
It's loaded to assert that diagnoses, especially when coming from multiple sources, can't be trusted. But I am a skeptic by nature so I want to give that some validation. Lots of factors go into it, and we love our links, so here's a good one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2990547/
But we too have to look at ourselves here and say that if trained and experienced professionals can be wrong, so can strangers on the internet who are biased on their own experiences and beliefs. I'm not saying I don't resonate with RCR or even HB's soothing writings about the nature of midlife crisis. I think they both draw from their own experiences in an eloquent and useful way. At different times Rejoice Ministries, Dr. Joe Beam, Melanie Tonia Evans, even Chump Lady have been cathartic resources. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's Satan, a liminal affair, narcissistic abuse, or that I'm just a codependent idiot that needs to "kick him to the curb." I can only go with my gut that there are others along this journey who have seen my xH and have a strong opinion about the nature of what is happening with him. And I can use the rest to heal myself, of whatever has broken my heart and taken over my brain. It's just not always as simple and predictable as we'd like it to be. Even post-crisis, I am the same, but not. This is all clearly still a big part of my identity now, whatever it is.
And to support the "Monster" of this thread, my xH has again retreated after 8 months of solid contact. He screwed up what we were working toward together to get the settlement finished, so back to square one there. I truly believe he was just ramped up and needed a target since OW and he were living separately for a time. It is relatable to both the MLC canon and bipolar mania. And for me - annoyance! :)
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Of course we can be wrong. That is why I wrote even trained professionals like psychiatrist and psychologists can be, and often are, wrong. Not so much with depression, but with mentall illness. They may, however, not spot depression or make a depression diagnose without looking for factors that can cause it, thyroid for example.
Here we can only go by what HS members write. However, either we believe MLC exists or we don't. Even if our spouse may not be in MLC. Or may be on MLC on top of something else. Otherwise there is no point to HS and to our years long effort to have MLC being more acceptable and visible. We know MLCers go back to normal - not all, of course, even because some of those who do not may be gaving either something else, or something else on top of MLC.
You, I, all HS members that have a MLC went back to normal. People we know in real life went back to normal, the spouses of those in reconnection are going back to normal and the spouses of those reconciled went back to normal.
We also know that does not happen with other mental illness, aside from some types of depression.
We know MLC has a pattern. We know MLCers are depressed, some, like Mr J, even said so themselves early on.
Situational depression makes a lot of sense when it comes to a LBS. Calamity was also diagnose with situational depression by then.
No idea why your husband had that strange phase in his 20's. From what I recall, he was not diagnose with anything at the time. It may had been a breakdown/burnout that caused those strange actions, it could had been some brain issues, it could a mental illness.
It is relatable to both the MLC canon and bipolar mania. And for me - annoyance! :)
It is. And since MLC mimics bipolar, who knows what really is going on.
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It's important to note though that 0% percent of people here have a spouse who has been "diagnosed" MLC, since it is not recognized globally as anything other than an existential crisis. And since this site is made up completely of people bringing their own personal experiences and perceptions to the table, not a regulated group of vetted experts trained specifically in an unbiased way about MLC, we are free to support anyone who needs it.
I completely agree. I can only speak from my experience and I feel somewhat confident that my H is suffering from SOMETHING that SOME other LBS's spouses on here are also suffering from. But I also feel somewhat confident that not everyone's spouse on here is suffering from whatever it is that my H has. I do not believe it is something that has a clinically recognized name but I think with attention from researchers it would be classified as a specific syndrome, but there simply has been no such research.
However, I think the umbrella term we use on here, "MLC" has to refer to multiple syndromes. Some may be diseases already known, e.g. NPD, BPD, etc. Some may be one or even more as yet un-named syndromes, which could be MLC-1, MLC-2 etc.
I don't want to say, "MY H has MLC and yours doesn't" but I do have to admit that IF my H has MLC, there are definitely some on here whose spouses DON'T have MLC because their spouses are simply acting very very differently from my own.
I would say my H is suffering from whatever it is that HB describes because what she describes fits my H almost to a T.
However, I will say this about RCR and HB. As much as they really do offer a lot of help with their articles, I am not sure how far they would advance the possibility of there being serious medical research done to get to the bottom of what is going on with our spouses. Let's be honest, HB believes everything she knows was imparted on her directly by God speaking to her, and RCR has a fondness for poetry and ancient Greek mythology and the like. This is hardly the dry clinical description one needs to get medical scientists to take it seriously. In fact, in that regard, their descriptions being so prominent in what is available on the internet might do more harm than good.
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Things are similar but one cannot advise someone to stand for someone who will come out of it if the matter is bipolar, borderline, NPD.
Well, it also depends on WHAT they are standing for. Are they standing for their spouses to get BETTER and for the disease to go away? True, that will never happen. Will their spouses return to them? Perhaps yes, perhaps no.
Another thing that may not be politically correct to say, but there's more to whether the "MLCer" will return or not than what specifically is wrong with the MLCer. I do believe there are certain behaviors and attitudes among certain LBSes that almost 100% doom any chance of reconciliation, no matter what is wrong with their spouse. There's even certain phrases that are bandied about by some members here repeatedly and if you search the archives, you will find that those who frequently talk about their situations with those terms, just don't reconcile. I don't want to publicly say what they are as some will take it as a personal attack. But if we want even a chance to get our spouses back, I would argue WE need to NOT have certain (negative) attitudes toward them. Sadly, some of these members are "standing" but to be honest they are shooting their chances in the foot and probably wasting their time.
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Anjae, I think I told you some of this before, but when I met my 1st H he was 18, I was 16. Either he did not show his NPD or I was too young to know see it. So I can honestly say, I didn't see his NPD until a few years later, when he was in his early 20's.
He was very shy and quiet, decent person, if he had NPD I did not see any symptoms.
He started getting much worse after a few years . It was then when he started showed signs of NPD, although I still had no knowledge of NPD. I knew he wasn't right so I started researching what could be wrong with him. Sociopath, you name it. He showed to empathy at all for anyone, even his kids.
No conscience over anything wrong he did. He started womanizing, no conscience, no remorse. Sometimes he would try to pick up women in his car, with my oldest son with him (I found out years later).
He very much had to be the center of attention, shyness was gone. If he was ignored he would get angry. If you gave him attention he was your best friend, even though he was not a real friend to anyone..only to their face.
He would feel entitled to steal lumber from the lumber yard he worked for, again no remorse. I was horrified. He could have lost him job.
I finally found a book called The Narcissist..and realized EXACTLY what was wrong with him. He checked every box.
He remained that way until the day he passed away. Used one woman after another, discarding them when they didn't make him happy anymore.
So I do believe they can have NPD but not show outward symptoms until years later.
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It could be that some people with NPD are in positions that make their symptoms more obvious, e.g. prominent well known public figures. Someone with a weekly newspaper column or a popular Twitter account in a position of power over others can express their NPD traits more obviously and clearly.
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I think a lot of us see similar 'script' behaviour and huge changes in the persona of our spouses often after many years. And some really quite bonkers behaviour for previously sane decent adults.
At the same time, our spouses are individuals and so are we, and that must play some part in how things unfold. And perhaps some here are not 'MLC' or are unfolding of other disorders or dysfunctional relationships.
There are parts of our experience which are different and we make sense of it in different ways and we make choices in often confusing situations which we feel are the best we can do at a given point. And we have different 'red' lines and different challenges in our situations. Are there things we can do which make any possible reconciliation impossible? Maybe. But I'm not sure - although I accept that others have a different opinion - that there is much we can do to ensure any reconciliation given that it takes two and usually our spouse is busy burning the house down. And I'm pretty sure that there are things we can do while hoping to reconcile that make our recovery from this painful experience much harder.
The desparate need to understand and label things is a human survival instinct, I think, and it does help to make it less of a personal attack perhaps. But after a while, I think most of us feel less need to know why because we are simply too busy dealing with the fallout the best we can. I suspect the simple truth is that, if the theories are right, MLC is a temporary if long process and the proof of the pudding is probably if our spouse or ex- spouse over time returns to acting more like a decent normal adult albeit perhaps changed by their own experience. Some may not and some of us with little/no contact may of course never know....although the universe seems to have a strange way of providing info even when we are not looking for it :)
The common thread for most of us though is - irrespective of the cause - we are dealing with unrecognisable spouses usually who are intent on acting in ways that damage our wellbeing and who rewrite what we thought was real about our previous lives and futures. All we can do is support each other through our individual trauma the best we can and cheer from the cheap seats at any glimmer of good news whether marital or solo imho.
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No idea why your husband had that strange phase in his 20's. From what I recall, he was not diagnose with anything at the time. It may had been a breakdown/burnout that caused those strange actions, it could had been some brain issues, it could a mental illness.
He was not seeking treatment for it, so there was no way he could have gotten a diagnosis. His military superiors had, however, limited his involvement in certain deployments. I do think there's a backstory to that I was not privy to. I would not have questioned it because I was young and inexperienced in this sort of "big picture" thinking that would cause me to dig deeper into where this would lead. I was just glad he was not getting deployed.
However, I think the umbrella term we use on here, "MLC" has to refer to multiple syndromes. Some may be diseases already known, e.g. NPD, BPD, etc. Some may be one or even more as yet un-named syndromes, which could be MLC-1, MLC-2 etc.
Right there with you with his, GG. Time will tell where this leads, but I agree also, if even Carl Jung's work on the dark night of the soul didn't amount to something concrete in the DSM, those on the esoteric end of MLC work, who are not one of the founders of modern psychology as Jung is, have little chance of breaking through. I just don't see MLC as something that mimics anything. Does it exist? Certainly, there is something 'special' (ha) about the crises of faith, emotion, biology, psychology, and identity that happen here. What RCR and HB explain encompass several different possible versions of it. I don't think there's a guaranteed outcome. I don't even really subscribe to the tunnel metaphor. All depression can kind of be described that way.
I also agree with GG that the return of well being and the return of the relationship are completely different issues. I think we've seen plenty of examples of all possible outcomes of that here on the forum. Also agree with Treasur - it's all about support for each other.
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However, I think the umbrella term we use on here, "MLC" has to refer to multiple syndromes. Some may be diseases already known, e.g. NPD, BPD, etc. Some may be one or even more as yet un-named syndromes, which could be MLC-1, MLC-2 etc.
The problem is that, something happened. People notice a big difference in their spouse, regardless of them may already had something. The already something that may be there didn't drove anyone to HS. So, logically, something else happened.
MLC, like many other things, has degrees and not an MLCers are alike. Not all MLCers are like your husband and follow HB's process to a T.
Another thing that may not be politically correct to say, but there's more to whether the "MLCer" will return or not than what specifically is wrong with the MLCer. I do believe there are certain behaviors and attitudes among certain LBSes that almost 100% doom any chance of reconciliation, no matter what is wrong with their spouse
I doubt the LBS has anything to do with it. Some here are nothing but kind, caring towards, even allowing the MLCer to come and go, or be part of the family and their MLCers and their MLCer is still in Replay/crisis after many years. Others, LP comes to mind, were very hard with their MLCer - she had to, he was physically agressesive - and had a terrible, traumatic divorce, yet the MCLer is wanting back. LP does not want him back.
He was very shy and quiet, decent person, if he had NPD I did not see any symptoms.
Maybe he didn't had at 18. Or it may had been BPD. Borderlines are masters at hidding their condition.
He very much had to be the center of attention, shyness was gone. If he was ignored he would get angry. If you gave him attention he was your best friend, even though he was not a real friend to anyone only to their face.
This could be a borderline. Not saying he didn't end up with NPD, just that it could be something else. People on HS always mention NPD, but I think sometimes that is not the case. It is just because MLCers become narcisists/self-centered while in crisis and someone once come up with the NPD and it stick.
So I do believe they can have NPD but not show outward symptoms until years later.
Or the NPD, or whatever, was not there when they were young. However, as a general rule, a personality disorder showns in adolescence, or even earlier. It does not tens do appear all of a sudden in an adult, even in an young adult. What may happen is that people may had not been diagnosed before.
It seems my maternal uncle is borderline. However, I don't recall anything related to it when he has young. I do, however, recall him losing and being quite nasty - I wrote about on my threads on the subscribers board - when grandmother was already fully bed ridden. What may have happened is that, when he was younger, he was better at hidding. Or hide it from some, with age, it got worst.
It could be that some people with NPD are in positions that make their symptoms more obvious, e.g. prominent well known public figures.
It could be.
I also agree with GG that the return of well being and the return of the relationship are completely different issues. I
Indeed. That has been said over and over and over on HS and it is in the articles.
Jung's dark night of the soul is too abstract for a mental illness manual. It is great for philosophy, but not of much use in medicine. That said, DMS-5 (or the ther psychiatry manuals) are filled with illnesses no one knows the cause, or treatment, of.
In my view, the answers lies in neurology/neuroscience as well as the relation of ambient with genes/nature/life situation(s). Not in the standard approach of psychiatry. Decades of psychiatry have shown it solves nothing, aside from some depressions that can solved by a
GP.
I alwasy recall my freidn who is a psyciatrist saying that when the brain flips there is nothing psychiatrists can do, other that use meds and some therapy, and that, in many cases, meds and therapy will do nothing. Even in the cases they do, they do not cure the problem.
Things we know:
- As a general MLC ends, regardless of a reconciled relationship/marriage.
- People with pre-existing mentall illness can have a MLC. The MLC may, or may not go away, the pre-existing mental illness (exception being depression that was the start of MLC) will not go away.
- It is not possible to know who will or will not, have a MLC.
- MLC has a pattern.
- Mental illness is difficult to diagnose, especially accurately, for trained professionals.
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I don't know. I have to wonder if a person is born a Narc, or is it environmental?
Even the experts can't agree.
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I don't know. I have to wonder if a person is born a Narc, or is it environmental?
Even the experts can't agree.
No, they can't. And it could be both, depending of the person. Some could had born with it and for others it was environmental. Or someone could be born with it, but depending of environmental if could, or could not, be triggered.
What I know from family members with mental illnessm diagnosed and undiagnosed (or that I do not know the diagnose):
- Younger maternal great aunt (grandmother's younger sister). She was diagnosed with schizophrenia in her teens. There is, and was, medication for schizophrenia and when she took it she was normal. But she used to say it made her "slow" (it made her normal speed and behaviour, but to her it was slow). She would often quit her meds and the siblings she lived with had to endure it. I never saw her doing, or saying, anything strage. When I was a child I used to sleep in her bedroom with her and there was never any problem. As with many that suffer from mental illness, she would only allow the worst to be seen by those she lived it. It is possible that age and the going off and on the medication made her illness worst.
- Maternal grandfather. Killed himself in the early 60's leaving grandmother, a stay at home mother, with four underaged children. He had an history of suicide attemps since his mother was alive (she died late 20s' or early 30's he was born during WWI). So, we was young when his crisis and issues begin. Was he bipolar or borderline? I don't know. The threats of killing himself and the attempts seem to suggest borderline, but, who knows. He was a nice, caring, generous man when not in one of his crisis. One of his best friends was a psychiatrist, they even lived in front of each other for a few years, but he never looked for help. His friend offered and was refused. Did grandmother knew of his issues when she married him? I do not know.
- Maternal uncle. Only this year were we aware he was borderline. One of his sons told one of my other cousins. As mentioned in my other post, I only noticed something very strange with him when grandmother was fully bedridden. He lost it here upon me. In 2016, I think. As a child and an adolescent I didn't notice anything. He was an arts and theatre teacher at different school levels, univeristy included for decades. All his students adore him. I knew he and other theatre world people had fallen out at times, but that is normal in the arts world. Early 70's he was conscripted to go fight in our colonial war as was consided fit, physically and mentaly by the army - he never went to the war, he suffered an accident while in training and was in the military hospital when the dictatorship and the war end. Nor he nor his wife ever told us about his mental illness. Was he born that way? Did it show at a point and become worst with time/age/life situations).
- Paternal Aunt. Tryied to kill herself in the late 80's. She had psychiatric issues for a while. As a child, I do not remember anything odd with her, she was very nice to me. At a point in my teens things changed and got worst after her suicide attempt. I lived for 13 years in the capital, where she lived with my paternal grandmother, and never saw her once. Las time I saw her was, I think, in the hospital after she had tried to kill herself. In the late 70's and early 80's she took a lot of amphetamines to stay focussed and barbiturates to sleep, both prescribed by a doctor. If I am not mistaken, she had a big heart break in the mid 70's. Her need for amphetamines and barbitures come from paternal grandmother wanted her to be the best of her university class and then masters degree. She had a full time job, and, in order to concentrate and then sleep a bit, took the pills. Mum says paternal aunt already had something when I was born, but who knows. It may just be a SIL thing. I would say my paternal may had something before, but if she had, it was made much worst by the meds she took. Or the meds she took and the little sleep and the pressure she had for ages may had caused it. My paternal aunt has a psychiatric diagnose but it was never said waht i was.
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Although I have no expertise to say one way or the other, I'm going to say from experience that I believe that NPD is part genetic - part learned, like I've been told is often the case with personality disorders. I say this because my IC has told me this.
Funnily enough, when I was speaking to the man who looks after my dog when I go away (he runs a kennel), he was telling me that my doggie is just plain good. I said because we've never hurt her. He said that the mean personality in a dog is partly genetic and partly created. I do believe this is true with humans, too.
My maternal grandmother's sisters were known for being selfish. Actually, there's a much worse word used for them. My mother would tell me this. I suspect my mother was a bit of a Narc herself, and I believe that my S is one.
My sister appeared to be a confident child. She got all my mother's attention, seemed normal, was quite popular, was fairly balanced, in that she didn't get emotional. Even when she would experience something that would make someone else get very angry, she would remain calm.
When her H cheated on her, she threw him out. She said, 'No one cheats on me.' I thought good for her, although I would have at least tried to get some professional help first.
I don't remember her ever crying over her H's cheating. I don't remember her being devastated in the least, just annoyed that her H had dared cheat on her. This happened 10 years before my BD so I just presumed that being cheated on was not something terribly painful. She is now going to spend Xmas with her H and his long term partner, the woman her H cheated on her with. Funnily enough my H just told my S14 about this and said he thought this was really weird.
My sister was cruel to me as a child. She would set me up to get me in trouble, physically torture me, but never got in trouble with my mother. I don't remember how she would explain away these episodes in order to get away with them. I only remember the pain and humiliation she brought on me.
She seemed quite placid to others. Once she reached her 20s, she got meaner and meaner. It was all about her own, her kids, her life, her. Her 3 kids were all accused of bullying by their various schools. My sister denied it even though her H kept saying there had to be some truth to the claims.
My sister has used everyone close to her for her needs. My mother and father are dead now, but she sure used me all her life any time she had a problem. And if she didn't have a problem, she created one.
If she needed you, she could be so kind and generous. The minute she didn't need you, you'd not only be discarded, you'd be offended first, diminished, and then discarded until the next time she needed you, rinse and repeat.
She has gotten progressively worse and more selfish as she has gotten older. To me this is the description of a Narc. My H has been behaving similar to my sister since his crisis has began, and sadly for me, is in regular contact with her so that they can convince each other that I'm the bad one and they are both right.
My H, differently from my sister, has only become like this since his crisis began in his 40s, several years before BD. And even in his crisis, he can have times when he's who he really is, a nice man, a man who really cares, but is insecure. I don't believe my sister ever has a day when she's genuinely a good person. She is only apparently 'nice' because she's after something.
I think my sister was born with the genes from my maternal grandmother's family, and then my mother encouraged it. This is my take on NPD.
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Thank you for sharing your experience, Milly.
To me, you are describing a psycopath more than a NPD. However, personality disorders are hard to tell apart.
Even if, personaly, I have no interest in NPD, I searched a little. What I found when it comes to genetics is that the predesposition is there, but the illness is triggered by serious environmental issues.
Think it is more or less the same for borderline.
There is a line of though about mental illness, depression included, that thinks it comes foward more because of environmental issues than anything else. I am not sure if we can say it is so in every case. Take depression, it can be caused by hormones. A brain aneurysm or tumour can alter a person's personality and go undetected for a long time.
Our downstairs neigbourgh had an horrible phase. She was nasty, vile, insane. Did terrible things. Turn out she had a brain aneurysm. One day she waked up in a strange fashion, her husbad took her to the hospital. The aneurysm was about to blow. She also had a stroke. Since the aneurysm was removed she changed and has been very nice since. She does not recall the things she did while ill.
Thyroid problems, if undetected or untreated, can also change someone's personality to the point of total monster. SIL used to be depressed a lot and have outburst of rage. She went to psychiatrist, tried lots of things, nothing worked. Turns out she had a thyroid problem. She had surgery, her depression were gone, her mood become even and she become quite nice.
At times, we may think something is a mental illness, but it may have a physiological, solvable, cause.
That also adds another layer to the complexity of these matters.
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Yes, it sure does, Anjae.
The human mind is very complex and there is so much we still don't know.
Milly, I agree with what you said. There is just something missing with a true Narc.
"I don't believe my sister ever has a day when she's genuinely a good person. She is only apparently 'nice' because she's after something."
I found this to be true with my 1st H too but not until he got into his early 20's, that I recall. If being nice served some purpose for him, he could do it.
There are documented cases of children who are just born bad. They never reach the level of any kind of human feelings. Doctors don't have any name for it, they just call them "toxic" kids. No real explanation for them to be that way. Their parents could be wonderful parents.
They can become very dangerous kids who harm their parents and siblings with no apparent feelings of guilt or empathy.
To date there is no cure or medication for these kids. They usually end up institutionalized because they are dangerous.
I still remember my 2 year old son sitting in a high chair and my H calling him a bastard. Only because he needed my attention.
Sick stuff.
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Yep Thunder sick is right ..he needed a good swift kick in the nuts.
Jealous of his own child.
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Does anyone want to start a new Monster thread? :)
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new thread: https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10417.0