[Not Applicable]

Things are similar but one cannot advise someone to stand for someone who will come out of it if the matter is bipolar, borderline, NPD.

Well, it also depends on WHAT they are standing for. Are they standing for their spouses to get BETTER and for the disease to go away? True, that will never happen. Will their spouses return to them? Perhaps yes, perhaps no.

Another thing that may not be politically correct to say, but there's more to whether the "MLCer" will return or not than what specifically is wrong with the MLCer. I do believe there are certain behaviors and attitudes among certain LBSes that almost 100% doom any chance of reconciliation, no matter what is wrong with their spouse. There's even certain phrases that are bandied about by some members here repeatedly and if you search the archives, you will find that those who frequently talk about their situations with those terms, just don't reconcile. I don't want to publicly say what they are as some will take it as a personal attack. But if we want even a chance to get our spouses back, I would argue WE need to NOT have certain (negative) attitudes toward them. Sadly, some of these members are "standing" but to be honest they are shooting their chances in the foot and probably wasting their time.

[Thunder]

Anjae, I think I told you some of this before, but when I met my 1st H he was 18, I was 16.  Either he did not show his NPD or I was too young to know see it.  So I can honestly say, I didn't see his NPD until a few years later, when he was in his early 20's.

He was very shy and quiet, decent person, if he had NPD I did not see any symptoms.   

He started getting much worse after a few years .  It was then when he started showed signs of NPD, although I still had no knowledge of NPD.  I knew he wasn't right so I started researching what could be wrong with him.  Sociopath, you name it.  He showed to empathy at all for anyone, even his kids.

No conscience over anything wrong he did.  He started womanizing, no conscience, no remorse.   Sometimes he would try to pick up women in his car, with my oldest son with him (I found out years later).

He very much had to be the center of attention, shyness was gone.  If he was ignored he would get angry.  If you gave him attention he was your best friend, even though he was not a real friend to anyone..only to their face.
He would feel entitled to steal lumber from the lumber yard he worked for, again no remorse.  I was horrified.   He could have lost him job.

I finally found a book called The Narcissist..and realized EXACTLY what was wrong with him.  He checked every box. 
He remained that way until the day he passed away.  Used one woman after another, discarding them when they didn't make him happy anymore.

So I do believe they can have NPD but not show outward symptoms until years later.

[Not Applicable]

It could be that some people with NPD are in positions that make their symptoms more obvious, e.g. prominent well known public figures. Someone with a weekly newspaper column or a popular Twitter account in a position of power over others can express their NPD traits more obviously and clearly.

[Treasur]

I think a lot of us see similar 'script' behaviour and huge changes in the persona of our spouses often after many years. And some really quite bonkers behaviour for previously sane decent adults.
At the same time, our spouses are individuals and so are we, and that must play some part in how things unfold. And perhaps some here are not 'MLC' or are unfolding of other disorders or dysfunctional relationships.

There are parts of our experience which are different and we make sense of it in different ways and we make choices in often confusing situations which we feel are the best we can do at a given point. And we have different 'red' lines and different challenges in our situations. Are there things we can do which make any possible reconciliation impossible? Maybe. But I'm not sure - although I accept that others have a different opinion - that there is much we can do to ensure any reconciliation given that it takes two and usually our spouse is busy burning the house down. And I'm pretty sure that there are things we can do while hoping to reconcile that make our recovery from this painful experience much harder.

The desparate need to understand and label things is a human survival instinct, I think, and it does help to make it less of a personal attack perhaps. But after a while, I think most of us feel less need to know why because we are simply too busy dealing with the fallout the best we can. I suspect the simple truth is that, if the theories are right, MLC is a temporary if long process and the proof of the pudding is probably if our spouse or ex- spouse over time returns to acting more like a decent normal adult albeit perhaps changed by their own experience. Some may not and some of us with little/no contact may of course never know....although the universe seems to have a strange way of providing info even when we are not looking for it 

The common thread for most of us though is - irrespective of the cause - we are dealing with unrecognisable spouses usually who are intent on acting in ways that damage our wellbeing and who rewrite what we thought was real about our previous lives and futures. All we can do is support each other through our individual trauma the best we can and cheer from the cheap seats at any glimmer of good news whether marital or solo imho.

[Ready2Transform]

No idea why your husband had that strange phase in his 20's. From what I recall, he was not diagnose with anything at the time. It may had been a breakdown/burnout that caused those strange actions, it could had been some brain issues, it could a mental illness.

He was not seeking treatment for it, so there was no way he could have gotten a diagnosis. His military superiors had, however, limited his involvement in certain deployments. I do think there's a backstory to that I was not privy to. I would not have questioned it because I was young and inexperienced in this sort of "big picture" thinking that would cause me to dig deeper into where this would lead. I was just glad he was not getting deployed.

However, I think the umbrella term we use on here, "MLC" has to refer to multiple syndromes. Some may be diseases already known, e.g. NPD, BPD, etc. Some may be one or even more as yet un-named syndromes, which could be MLC-1, MLC-2 etc.

Right there with you with his, GG. Time will tell where this leads, but I agree also, if even Carl Jung's work on the dark night of the soul didn't amount to something concrete in the DSM, those on the esoteric end of MLC work, who are not one of the founders of modern psychology as Jung is, have little chance of breaking through. I just don't see MLC as something that mimics anything. Does it exist? Certainly, there is something 'special' (ha) about the crises of faith, emotion, biology, psychology, and identity that happen here. What RCR and HB explain encompass several different possible versions of it. I don't think there's a guaranteed outcome. I don't even really subscribe to the tunnel metaphor. All depression can kind of be described that way.

I also agree with GG that the return of well being and the return of the relationship are completely different issues. I think we've seen plenty of examples of all possible outcomes of that here on the forum. Also agree with Treasur - it's all about support for each other.

[Anjae]

However, I think the umbrella term we use on here, "MLC" has to refer to multiple syndromes. Some may be diseases already known, e.g. NPD, BPD, etc. Some may be one or even more as yet un-named syndromes, which could be MLC-1, MLC-2 etc.

The problem is that, something happened. People notice a big difference in their spouse, regardless of them may already had something. The already something that may be there didn't drove anyone to HS. So, logically, something else happened.

MLC, like many other things, has degrees and not an MLCers are alike. Not all MLCers are like your husband and follow HB's process to a T.

Another thing that may not be politically correct to say, but there's more to whether the "MLCer" will return or not than what specifically is wrong with the MLCer. I do believe there are certain behaviors and attitudes among certain LBSes that almost 100% doom any chance of reconciliation, no matter what is wrong with their spouse

I doubt the LBS has anything to do with it. Some here are nothing but kind, caring towards, even allowing the MLCer to come and go, or be part of the family and their MLCers and their MLCer is still in Replay/crisis after many years. Others, LP comes to mind, were very hard with their MLCer - she had to, he was physically agressesive - and had a terrible, traumatic divorce, yet the MCLer is wanting back. LP does not want him back.

He was very shy and quiet, decent person, if he had NPD I did not see any symptoms. 

Maybe he didn't had at 18. Or it may had been BPD. Borderlines are masters at hidding their condition.

He very much had to be the center of attention, shyness was gone.  If he was ignored he would get angry.  If you gave him attention he was your best friend, even though he was not a real friend to anyone only to their face.

This could be a borderline. Not saying he didn't end up with NPD, just that it could be something else. People on HS always mention NPD, but I think sometimes that is not the case. It is just because MLCers become narcisists/self-centered while in crisis and someone once come up with the NPD and it stick.

So I do believe they can have NPD but not show outward symptoms until years later.

Or the NPD, or whatever, was not there when they were young. However, as a general rule, a personality disorder showns in adolescence, or even earlier. It does not tens do appear all of a sudden in an adult, even in an young adult. What may happen is that people may had not been diagnosed before.

It seems my maternal uncle is borderline. However, I don't recall anything related to it when he has young. I do, however, recall him losing and being quite nasty - I wrote about on my threads on the subscribers board - when grandmother was already fully bed ridden. What may have happened is that, when he was younger, he was better at hidding. Or hide it from some, with age, it got worst.

It could be that some people with NPD are in positions that make their symptoms more obvious, e.g. prominent well known public figures.

It could be.

I also agree with GG that the return of well being and the return of the relationship are completely different issues.  I

Indeed. That has been said over and over and over on HS and it is in the articles.

Jung's dark night of the soul is too abstract for a mental illness manual. It is great for philosophy, but not of much use in medicine. That said, DMS-5 (or the ther psychiatry manuals) are filled with illnesses no one knows the cause, or treatment, of.

In my view, the answers lies in neurology/neuroscience as well as the relation of ambient with genes/nature/life situation(s). Not in the standard approach of psychiatry. Decades of psychiatry have shown it solves nothing, aside from some depressions that can solved by a
GP.

I alwasy recall my freidn who is a psyciatrist saying that when the brain flips there is nothing psychiatrists can do, other that use meds and some therapy, and that, in many cases, meds and therapy will do nothing. Even in the cases they do, they do not cure the problem.

Things we know:

- As a general MLC ends, regardless of a reconciled relationship/marriage.

- People with pre-existing mentall illness can have a MLC. The MLC may, or may not go away, the pre-existing mental illness (exception being depression that was the start of MLC) will not go away.

- It is not possible to know who will or will not, have a MLC.

- MLC has a pattern.

- Mental illness is difficult to diagnose, especially accurately, for trained professionals.

[Thunder]

I don't know.  I have to wonder if a person is born a Narc, or is it environmental?

Even the experts can't agree.

[Anjae]

I don't know.  I have to wonder if a person is born a Narc, or is it environmental?

Even the experts can't agree.

No, they can't. And it could be both, depending of the person. Some could had born with it and for others it was environmental. Or someone could be born with it, but depending of environmental if could, or could not, be triggered.

What I know from family members with mental illnessm diagnosed and undiagnosed (or that I do not know the diagnose):

- Younger maternal great aunt (grandmother's younger sister). She was diagnosed with schizophrenia in her teens. There is, and was, medication for schizophrenia and when she took it she was normal. But she used to say it made her "slow" (it made her normal speed and behaviour, but to her it was slow). She would often quit her meds and the siblings she lived with had to endure it. I never saw her doing, or saying, anything strage. When I was a child I used to sleep in her bedroom with her and there was never any problem. As with many that suffer from mental illness, she would only allow the worst to be seen by those she lived it. It is possible that age and the going off and on the medication made her illness worst.

- Maternal grandfather. Killed himself in the early 60's leaving grandmother, a stay at home mother, with four underaged children. He had an history of suicide attemps since his mother was alive (she died late 20s' or early 30's he was born during WWI). So, we was young when his crisis and issues begin. Was he bipolar or borderline? I don't know. The threats of killing himself and the attempts seem to suggest borderline, but, who knows. He was a nice, caring, generous man when not in one of his crisis. One of his best friends was a psychiatrist, they even lived in front of each other for a few years, but he never looked for help. His friend offered and was refused. Did grandmother knew of his issues when she married him? I do not know.

- Maternal uncle. Only this year were we aware he was borderline. One of his sons told one of my other cousins. As mentioned in my other post, I only noticed something very strange with him when grandmother was fully bedridden. He lost it here upon me. In 2016, I think. As a child and an adolescent I didn't notice anything. He was an arts and theatre teacher at different school levels, univeristy included for decades. All his students adore him. I knew he and other theatre world people had fallen out at times, but that is normal in the arts world. Early 70's he was conscripted to go fight in our colonial war as was consided fit, physically and mentaly by the army - he never went to the war, he suffered an accident while in training and was in the military hospital when the dictatorship and the war end. Nor he nor his wife ever told us about his mental illness. Was he born that way? Did it show at a point and become worst with time/age/life situations).

- Paternal Aunt. Tryied to kill herself in the late 80's. She had psychiatric issues for a while. As a child, I do not remember anything odd with her, she was very nice to me. At a point in my teens things changed and got worst after her suicide attempt. I lived for 13 years in the capital, where she lived with my paternal grandmother, and never saw her once. Las time I saw her was, I think, in the hospital after she had tried to kill herself. In the late 70's and early 80's she took a lot of amphetamines to stay focussed and barbiturates to sleep, both prescribed by a doctor. If I am not mistaken, she had a big heart break in the mid 70's. Her need for amphetamines and barbitures come from paternal grandmother wanted her to be the best of her university class and then masters degree. She had a full time job, and, in order to concentrate and then sleep a bit, took the pills. Mum says paternal aunt already had something when I was born, but who knows. It may just be a SIL thing. I would say my paternal may had something before, but if she had, it was made much worst by the meds she took. Or the meds she took and the little sleep and the pressure she had for ages may had caused it. My paternal aunt has a psychiatric diagnose but it was never said waht i was.

[Milly]

Although I have no expertise to say one way or the other, I'm going to say from experience that I believe that NPD is part genetic - part learned, like I've been told is often the case with personality disorders. I say this because my IC has told me this.

Funnily enough, when I was speaking to the man who looks after my dog when I go away (he runs a kennel), he was telling me that my doggie is just plain good. I said because we've never hurt her. He said that the mean personality in a dog is partly genetic and partly created. I do believe this is true with humans, too.

My maternal grandmother's sisters were known for being selfish. Actually, there's a much worse word used for them. My mother would tell me this. I suspect my mother was a bit of a Narc herself, and I believe that my S is one.

My sister appeared to be a confident child. She got all my mother's attention, seemed normal, was quite popular, was fairly balanced, in that she didn't get emotional. Even when she would experience something that would make someone else get very angry, she would remain calm.

When her H cheated on her, she threw him out. She said, 'No one cheats on me.' I thought good for her, although I would have at least tried to get some professional help first.

 I don't remember her ever crying over her H's cheating. I don't remember her being devastated in the least, just annoyed that her H had dared cheat on her. This happened 10 years before my BD so I just presumed that being cheated on was not something terribly painful. She is now going to spend Xmas with her H and his long term partner, the woman her H cheated on her with. Funnily enough my H just told my S14 about this and said he thought this was really weird.

My sister was cruel to me as a child. She would set me up to get me in trouble, physically torture me, but never got in trouble with my mother. I don't remember how she would explain away these episodes in order to get away with them. I only remember the pain and humiliation she brought on me.

She seemed quite placid to others. Once she reached her 20s, she got meaner and meaner. It was all about her own, her kids, her life, her. Her 3 kids were all accused of bullying by their various schools. My sister denied it even though her H kept saying there had to be some truth to the claims.

My sister has used everyone close to her for her needs. My mother and father are dead now, but she sure used me all her life any time she had a problem. And if she didn't have a problem, she created one.

If she needed you, she could be so kind and generous. The minute she didn't need you, you'd not only be discarded, you'd be offended first, diminished, and then discarded until the next time she needed you, rinse and repeat.

She has gotten progressively worse and more selfish as she has gotten older. To me this is the description of a Narc. My H has been behaving similar to my sister since his crisis has began, and sadly for me, is in regular contact with her so that they can convince each other that I'm the bad one and they are both right.

My H, differently from my sister, has only become like this since his crisis began in his 40s, several years before BD. And even in his crisis, he can have times when he's who he really is, a nice man, a man who really cares, but is insecure. I don't believe my sister ever has a day when she's genuinely a good person. She is only apparently 'nice' because she's after something.

I think my sister was born with the genes from my maternal grandmother's family, and then my mother encouraged it. This is my take on NPD.

[Anjae]

Thank you for sharing your experience, Milly.

To me, you are describing a psycopath more than a NPD. However, personality disorders are hard to tell apart.

Even if, personaly, I have no interest in NPD, I searched a little. What I found when it comes to genetics is that the predesposition is there, but the illness is triggered by serious environmental issues.

Think it is more or less the same for borderline.

There is a line of though about mental illness, depression included, that thinks it comes foward more because of environmental issues than anything else. I am not sure if we can say it is so in every case. Take depression, it can be caused by hormones. A brain aneurysm or tumour can alter a person's personality and go undetected for a long time.

Our downstairs neigbourgh had an horrible phase. She was nasty, vile, insane. Did terrible things. Turn out she had a brain aneurysm. One day she waked up in a strange fashion, her husbad took her to the hospital. The aneurysm was about to blow. She also had a stroke. Since the aneurysm was removed she changed and has been very nice since. She does not recall the things she did while ill.
 
Thyroid problems, if undetected or untreated, can also change someone's personality to the point of total monster. SIL used to be depressed a lot and have outburst of rage. She went to psychiatrist, tried lots of things, nothing worked. Turns out she had a thyroid problem. She had surgery, her depression were gone, her mood become even and she become quite nice.

At times, we may think something is a mental illness, but it may have a physiological, solvable, cause.

That also adds another layer to the complexity of these matters.