[Not Applicable]

I think the following article would be good for all newbies who don't like hearing what us old timers have to say:
https://thestagesandlessonsofmidlife.org/a-piece-of-advice-time-and-the-mid-life-crisis/

Of course, you may still think we are wrong, but that's OK.

[Bewildered survivor]

First of all I just want to make it clear that I am not diagnosing my husband with any mental illness. This forum is not to make or confirm any kind of diagnosis. I see that’s it’s purpose is to be able to chose to freely express thoughts and feelings related to the traumas we share as LBS’s and MLC. I was simply expressing a painful issue I am trying to work through and process. I’m not sure my therapists qualifications have anything to do with anything so have no idea why you are continuing to prove a point about diagnosis. I feel you are missing the point.

I am fully accepting and open to all LBS and especially old timers views, opinions and insights as you will see from my thread and other posts. The insights and opinions I have no problem with- it’s actually the way in which it’s delivered I have a problem with, especially when my point has clearly been misinterpreted.

Again just for clarity- I’m  not asking for you to diagnose my husband nor am I trying to officially diagnose him but I am entitled to explore what ever I feel in my own situation without being critised. All I ask is that you be mindful of this.

[In the valley]

For mine in the 6 months or so leading up to bomb drop, I noticed a much quicker temper.  Snapping at me for certain things that wouldn’t have been that big a deal in the past.  I found it frustrating but assumed it was her learning to be more assertive combined with some extra stress since she had started working.   I consider the stages of grief (Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance).  I think she was in the anger stage of her crisis for those months.
Post BD It changed from being mad about something to a very intentional vicious hurtful attack.  Trying to find anyway to twist the knife and inflict more pain.  This was the monster I experienced.  I saw the change in her eyes too. The first time I read posts here about the shark eyes, my jaw hit the floor.  It really seemed like some kind of pure evil took over.  The comments about the prisoner also resonated with me.  There were times it really seems like she is being held against her will by the OM.  I realize now it’s a personality trapped in the crisis.  As I’ve moved closer to acceptance dealing with my own grief, I am letting go of the anger but then I see her monster at me and I’m more of a spectator just observing the behavior not emotionally affected by it.   

[Mortesbride]

I have to politely disagree that some of the spouses on here aren't suffering from something else. It is such a fine line between MLC and several other mental disorders, that can all be mixed and combined...or just part of MLC.

It was actually intense research into NPD before bomb drop, that lead me to this forum...

I have been pretty clear that I always knew something was 'wrong' with Beast. NPD and bi-polar highly up there. He was medicated as a teen. So I am not just pulling this out of thin air.

Sure he was a good husband, my best friend...yada yada....but he always had these 'depressive episodes' and talked about not being able to attach to other people which was seen throughout (did not keep friends outside of me, childhood or otherwise). He was very self centred and the things he did do where for a ''oh what a nice guy'' face. The 2-3 years before BD he consistently talked about how energy draining it was to keep up face at work. In NPD world this is the masks they wear for different people.

He would routinely tell me how he could 'change personality like that' and 'just cut people out of his life' and he 'doesn't have a real him, just pieces he has taken from people he likes'.

He has always had a ....personality switch. When he was mad there were no rules...Shark eyes were on, there was no getting through to him, and he was cruel. Before BD this would only last a few hours....but....a year or so before BD the switch was harder and harder to flip back...until I guess the fuse broke.

Part of the problem was...no matter what mask he wore..I could see the real him. And I think that scared the absolute life out of him. Having someone know what is BS before he even says it...someone who knows the flamboyant stories are just that...He needed someone to worship him and believe whatever he said. After 14 years...that wasn't me anymore.

Instinctively I knew this as soon as I knew who OW was. It was like watching a train wreck before it even left the station. Watching him try and recreate the dynamic he had with me as a teenager...because he needs that energy to keep him going. He needs every word believed and bowed down to.

But regardless if he is bi polar, or NPD, or an Early MLCer.....

Something is truly wrong, not normal, and he ticks every box for both. And the way to deal with a MLCer or NPD are very similar. And the crazy you have to deal with are similar. So I stick around here...with people who know the crazy and can laugh when stuff is tough..because that is the only way we get through it.

[Thunder]

Sounds like my first H, Mort.  Mentally not right in the head.  He never was.

[Anjae]

I have to politely disagree that some of the spouses on here aren't suffering from something else.

Some, yes. Even RCR leaves it clear not all here have a MLC. However a person can have a have a pre-existing mood or personality disorder and be in MLC.

But the behaviours associated with the personality or mood disorder will not be a surprise or a shock to the LBS. Also, personalities disorders, like NPD do not show in middle age, they have been there for a long time.

But regardless if he is bi polar, or NPD, or an Early MLCer.....

He has always had a ....personality switch. When he was mad there were no rules...Shark eyes were on, there was no getting through to him, and he was cruel. Before BD this would only last a few hours...

And you didn't find it strange? He clearly had issues. Those issues, may, of course, had got worst. Either because of MLC, age and/or lack or medication.

However, those of you with spouses who clearly had mental issues before MLC cannot assume that is valid for the rest of us.

The difference between MCL and a mood or personality disorder is that MLC goes away for most, but the mood or personality disorder does not. That is, someone who has a mood or personality that may be having a MLC may have his/her MLC ending but the personality or mood disorder will still be there.

For example, as OldPilot's mother, who had a MLC and is bipolar. Her bipolar remains.

He can't be bipolar and NPD. Since you write he always had depressive episodes, depression or bipolar seem more fitting that NPD. What was he medicated for when he was young?

The thing is, Mort and Mitten, HS is a site for people whose spouse is having a MLC. We are not equipped to help those whose spouses have a mood or personality disorder or may have become a mood disorder sufferer. Unlike personality disorders, mood disorders can show at any age.

RCR/HS stages of MLC are different from HS ones. RCR does not consider anger, depression, denial, withdrawal stages.

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_stages.html

[Thunder]

RCR/HS stages of MLC are different from HS ones. RCR does not consider anger, depression, denial, withdrawal stages.

What?

[Ready2Transform]

The thing is, Mort and Mitten, HS is a site for people whose spouse is having a MLC. We are not equipped to help those whose spouses have a mood or personality disorder or may have become a mood disorder sufferer. Unlike personality disorders, mood disorders can show at any age.

It's important to note though that 0% percent of people here have a spouse who has been "diagnosed" MLC, since it is not recognized globally as anything other than an existential crisis. And since this site is made up completely of people bringing their own personal experiences and perceptions to the table, not a regulated group of vetted experts trained specifically in an unbiased way about MLC, we are free to support anyone who needs it. We're just as equipped for mood disorder spouses or narc abuse victims as we are for anyone. because we're just people helping other people who didn't sign up to have our marriages blown up. We all have more in common than not.

When something as simple as "shark eyes" turns into a huge debate because we don't have pictures of our spouses or a regulated example to show what is meant, it's hard to think we're all going to come to one agreement about what "MLC" as a concept is. It's really not that big of a deal that we don't. If something doesn't resonate that someone says, move on to another thread where there is more kinship. It is about support, not validation. Give what you can, get where you can. That's my opinion on it, anyway.

My personal belief, for what it is worth, is that MLC is an umbrella term like COPD that covers many things that happen at midlife for different internal and external reasons. My spouse was diagnosed by mental health professionals as bipolar, and I will never know for sure if further treatment would have helped him, since after several months he decided it wasn't for him and he didn't want to be bipolar, so he wasn't going to be.  Very MLC-ish attitude as well. Were there red flags? Like Mortesbride, I saw them too. But no one is perfect and it wasn't as extreme as the midlife crisis antics. He was my best friend and we were together from such a young age, plus I was raised in a dysfunctional environment that didn't push me to look for something healthier. I wouldn't have given up on him even if it was one of his 'bad phases' (which ranged from depressive, more commonly, to erratic). The good times were, to my belief, good enough.

[Mortesbride]

Well I know from what I read that NPD get's worse with age. Many are covert in their teens, twenties...the symptoms aren't as bad and then they hit their 30s, 40s + and they get worse with age.

Who get's to distinguish if that is NPD or MLC if they aren't to bad until they are 40? Could be either...no one knows... until ''Time will tell''.

His occasional depressive moods, his mood swings...they weren't new to me...they weren't a surprise.

But the fact he couldn't come out of it was. The fact he was suddenly throwing bowls against my wall after 12 years of never doing that was. Screaming at the kids and trying to kick them...that was new. Suddenly needing to preen in front of a mirror just to go to the shop for milk was....needing to be glued to his phone to speak to this girl from work was...Obsessing over going to the gym and talking about the guys (in their 20s) at his work always partying and living it up...

Just because he was moody and had episodes...doesn't mean that I wasn't shocked or surprised at the drastic sudden new changes of BD.

Of course I found his switch strange. But I came from a messed up family. No one I knew was 'normal'. I am used to people having problems. No one is perfect. You gotta love the imperfections. But my husband had off days 1-4 days every month or two. The rest of the time he was pretty fantastic. Seemed normal to me.

And you can absolutely have bipolar and NPD at the same time.

You are right that this site is aimed for MLC. But it can help people whose spouses are suffering these other things..because they are so similar. The advice for both is similar. The crazy and support is similar. The only difference is that ''time will tell'' if it was MLC or the disorder. But at the same time advice for one MLC is useless on another MLCer so...at the end of the day we are all just trying to cope for ourselves and let them get on with it. No matter what they are suffering from we can't do anything about it.

[Anjae]

RCR/HS stages of MLC are different from HS ones. RCR does not consider anger, depression, denial, withdrawal stages.

What?

These are RCR MLC stages:

1. Separation
   a. Rejection & Refusal
   b. Resentment
   c. Escape & Avoid (Covert Depression)
     High-Energy: Reply
     OR
    Low-Energy: Wallow
2. Liminality or Liminal/Overt Depression
3. Rebirth
4. Reintegration

from: https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_stages.html

It was always so. RCR always said she does not consider anger, depression, denial, withdrawal stages because they are present at several MLC stages.

Replay itself is not a stage. It is a one of the two types of the sub-stage Escape & Avoid.

HB stages are different from RCR. Ones. HB are more similar to Conways one's, RCR ones to Jung's theory.

When questions like your "what" come up, Thunder, I really miss DGU. He knows the articles by memory.

Not sure if theren't isn't anyone who has been diagnosed MLC by a therapist. Most haven't but there remains a difference between something that was already there for year and the sudden change we see in MLCers.

Many also do not have spouses who have been diagnosed with anything, even those whose spouses have issues. Others, like yourself, have a spouse diagnosed with bipolar. Even if I think he is in MCL and it got consufed with bipolar.

You and I had a MLC. We weren't diagnosed with anything - in my case I was briefly diagnosed with situational depression because of what has happened - and we are both out of our MLC.

It is also impostan to say that pshychiatrists and psychologist often wrongly diagnosed people. Lets say, bipolar for borderline, or the other way round.

It is also important to say that an accurate bipolar diagnose can take up to ten years and often does.

No Mort, people don't really have bipolar and NPD. What happens is that when in the manic phase, bipolars can mimic nascisism. From what you wrote your husband only seemed to have down/depressed phases, than be normal.

If he didn't have manic phases, then he may not be bipolar but suffer from major depression (unipolar disorder). Also, NPD does not just show a few days a month or for a few hours.

There may be contact points, but they are different things.

Things are similar but one cannot advise someone to stand for someone who will come out of it if the matter is bipolar, borderline, NPD.

Another difference is that mood disorders need medications and therapy, and it does work - unless is extreme cases, but that does not apply to MLC. As for personality disorders, borderlines, or some borderlines, responde well to certain therapies and life changes. Sometimes that are given meds to help stablize the mood, even if, for now, no med can change the PD.

For now, no med or therapy can make bipolar or major depression or  schizophrenia go away for good either.

No one is perfect and people with mental illness deserve love and to be loved. But there is a certain level of crazy, outside of MLC, that is pretty obvious and not normal.