Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Thundarr on August 04, 2012, 04:01:17 PM
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annulment_(Catholic_Church)
General info about annulments.
http://therecordarchlou.wordpress.com/2012/08/01/annulments-are-commonly-misunderstood/
Substantial info about how the Catholic views on annulments are becoming more liberal and the process to get one becoming less work.
I read that second article and one before it in our local Catholic newspaper and was just appalled at the statements of how the church was making it easier to get an annulment because the old form was "too difficult to fill out." It blows my mind that all you have to do is fill out a form, pay a fee and wait to hear back from the Tribunal as to whether or not your marriage never happened. Let me rephrase that - it completely pisses me off! To think that my marriage of 19 + years (or, as Limitless says, does this last year even count?) could be so easily disposed of not only in the courts but in the church I grew up in. Our beautiful wedding can just be undone in such a way that it's almost like the last 21 years never existed. What has happened to commitment, vows, integrity in our society?
I know this topic will elicit strong responses from many of us here who are of the Catholic faith but I think something needs to be done. This smacks of liberalizing as a way to either bring more people in to the church or to keep people coming back. Disgusting. What's next? Abortion will be okay as long as you sign a form saying the couple didn't really want to get pregnant?
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I’m not a Catholic, Thudarr, but I live in a Catholic country. Maybe in the US annulments will become easy to get with the new rules but the article you post says “120 or so couples who seek the declaration each year.” That is not much. Let alone for a country with as many people as the US. As you know some marriages are not valid and can, and should, be declared null and void.
There is also this: “The process to determine if a marriage bond was formed is not an easy one, Father Beach noted. The process includes an investigation and proceeds in some ways the way a court does, he said. Evidence is collected and ultimately several canon lawyers judge the merits of the case to determine whether or not the couple entered into a valid marriage at the time of the wedding.” Even with the new rules an annulment may not be that easy to get. Don’t think the Vatican will be pleased if the Tribunal will start declaring marriage annulments like there is no tomorrow…
As for this “What has happened to commitment, vows, integrity in our society? “ even if a divorce is not the same as Annulment, divorce rates among Catholics are as high as among other people. And they have been for long. Don’t know what is the solution for this. Think it involves too many factors and there is no simple answer.
Would say they are trying to bring more people into the Catholic Church. Here, even if people are Catholics because it is the tradition, few really have a serious faith, there is a shortage of priests and churches are often empty. Catholic Church is considered, in Europe, to be too rigid and old fashioned and it has been loosing many, many people.
“Our beautiful wedding can just be undone in such a way that it's almost like the last 21 years never existed.” In a way, Thundarr, our MLCers are already done that.
Do you think your wife will look for an annulment?...
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Thundarr,
Interesting how people can view an issue from two totally different angles. I am a diehard Catholic. The way I see it, annulment has nothing to do with stopping the divorce from going through or making it easier for him to make this decision. If my H wants a divorce in this state of confusion and crisis, I doubt seriously he has even thought about getting an annulment…he just wants out. I on the other hand, would be furious if I am not allowed to remarry someday and continue to be a part of the church I dearly love because I can’t get an annulment…and he’s the one who cheated! Frankly, I'd happy to hear it won’t be as difficult. The only one who will be punished in my family is me. My H has moved to a new area, a new church...who is to know his history? BTW, this is the first I’ve heard the process is becoming more liberal. I still think it will not be an easy process.
The way it was explained to me by my pastor is that marriage is to be Christ-like: unconditional, faithful and forever. My love for my H was absolutely unconditional, faithful and forever. Obviously his wasn’t.
H2H
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The 120 was for my state alone, Anne. It would appear they are trying to increase that number.
I don't know that my W will seek one, but I may depending on what transpires. I have been told by a priest friend who used to sit on the Tribunal that I have grounds.
What country are you in, Anne?
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Thanks for the info on the number of annulments, Thundarr. Yes, you probably have grounds for an annulment.
But I agree with H2H, I would not like to not be allowed to marry on my Church because my husband had a MLC and filled for divorce, leaving me divorced.
I’m in Portugal. It’s a little less deeply Catholic country than Spain or Italy.
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Thundarr
You brought up the subject of annulment in your thread about a year ago. Here was part of RCR's response to you in your thread.
Sorry, but I’m already on my soapbox, so I might as well get comfy here. I’m Lutheran, so I’m coming from that perspective—not Roman Catholic.
Annulment in the Roman Catholic Church in America is a joke and an embarrassment to Rome. So you really want to use that as your excuse and defense? Do you truly believe that God agrees with the instution that is the church? Did He agree with Johanne Tetzel selling indulgences too? What are you first, Christian or Roman Catholic?
You are using the church’s policy as another excuse. Did your vows include exception clauses for church policy? Technically the church has to go back to the moment of those vows…so Sweetheart and I spent a year planning our wedding, but that counts for nothing if he had been drunk when he spoke the vows. The Roman Catholic Church believes in maintaining some policies because they are a tradition—history and yet our shared history had no meaning. Well, since I am not Roman Catholic it had no meaning anyway…but that’s different. (Sweetheart was raised Roman Catholic)
I am not anti Roman Catholic. I’m a very Catholic Lutheran, but the American church’s policy on marriage damages families and it sickens me when people use it to justify breaking a ‘til death and for better or for worse promise.
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Thundaar, I am quite furious at you! Did you even read what the criteria is for an annulment?
IT HASN'T CHANGED! Perhaps the forms used are changing, but according to the article, the conditions are the same as they have always been.
I was in a real MARRIAGE for 33 years years, we both willingly entered into this union, it was consummated and according to the Catholic Church..I CANNOT get an annulment according to the criteria as listed in the article which you posted.
In reality, he said, an annulment is the Church's way of declaring that at the time of the wedding, a marriage — the way the church defines marriage — never took place.
That relationship, as the church sees it, has four fundamental principles. The marriage is understood to be permanent, a partnership of equals, open to children and exclusive (the couple promise to be faithful to one another).
My Beloved and I agreed at the time of our marriage to these conditions. Had I been forced into marrying him (like what occurs with some cultures) I would have some grounds...but I was neither forced nor coerced.
Had he been insane or mentally incompetent, I could petition for an annulment...there are very few reasons for a true annulment to be given so you do NOT just
fill out a form, pay a fee and wait to hear back from the Tribunal as to whether or not your marriage never happened
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This is not the case and never has been.
An annulment may be declared when “at the time of the wedding, at the exchange of consent, one of these fundamental things was missing
If you want to justify some reason to leave your marriage then find what ever it is that makes you feel that it's ok...but don't try turning around what the bible clearly says and what the Catholic Church stands for and has always stood for.
Corinthians 7:10-11
To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband.
But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.
Exactly what part of this is unclear to you Thundaar?
RCR edited to correct quote brackets--but I think they were still intended to come through differently than they are now too.
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Mark 10
New International Version (NIV)
Divorce
10 Jesus then left that place and went into the region of Judea and across the Jordan. Again crowds of people came to him, and as was his custom, he taught them.
2 Some Pharisees came and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?”
3 “What did Moses command you?” he replied.
4 They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away.”
5 “It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law,” Jesus replied. 6 “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’[a] 7 ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, 8 and the two will become one flesh.’[c] So they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”
10 When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. 11 He answered, “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. 12 And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.”
And, in I Corinthians 7, Paul tells us what Jesus commands once a separation/divorce occurs:
10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.
If you are a believer, Christ's commands to us are clear. My own Lutheran church has come up with loopholes and reasons galore that are NOT Biblical reasons for divorce. Read the Word. The Catholic Church's annulment policy is man-made. I don't care if the Pope in Vatican City approves drive through annulments, Jesus doesn't.
And, RCR is right on. The so called body of Christ is more to blame for the divorce rate in this country than are secular laws. As soon as the divorce train started to pick up speed around 50 years ago in this country, the church should have derailed it. Not only didn't the church stop the train, but they jumped on board and started to come up with all kinds of reasons that were never allowed before to divorce. Even the clergy thought this was an awesome ride. Pastors today as a profession have the second highest divorce rate in the country.
Jesus Christ is the same today, yesterday,and tomorrow. He doesn't change. Heaven and earth will pass away but His Word lives on forever.
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the Pope in Vatican City approves drive through annulments,
The Pope does NOT approve annulments except in very specific cases as listed above.
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xyzcf,
I was trying to be sarcastic in pointing out all of the ridiculous reasons that even Christians try to use to justify divorce/remarriage. I was not trying to be disrespectful of the Catholic religion.
It just bothers me so much when Christ followers allow man made religion to debase the Word of God.
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I know Covenant for Life..sorry but I am angry at this topic being brought up here again in a site for Standers.
By the way, Catholics can be divorced just like any other denomination BUT they cannot remarry in a Catholic Church nor can they then receive the Eucharist if they enter into another relationship.
Nothing stops a Catholic from divorcing and remarrying in another Christian Church if they so desire.
By the way, you must obtain a divorce BEFORE you can apply for an annulment. So even if an annulment is granted, you first must go through the courts and be LEGALLY divorced.
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xyzcf,
Your last sentence is why the church on Earth should be trembling in fear as it - as well as all of us - will stand on Judgment Day in front of God.
Jesus said "no remarriage" - whether one is in a Catholic Church, a Lutheran Church, or any other Christian denomination. Jesus called it adultery in at least 8 separate passages of scripture and He will not be changing his mind.
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So, X, if my D goes through I can't take the Eucharist? Just want to clarify. Will comment on the rest later.
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No, you can take the Eucharist if divorced as long as in you intend to remain faithful to your wife and your wedding vows.
A divorce is a man made legal document that dissolves a marriage. Unless your marriage is annulled, you are still married in the eyes of the Catholic church.
If you enter into a another relationship after you are divorced, you are then committing adultery which would put you into a sin category that would not allow you to participate in the Eucharist unless you went to confession, were absolved and promised to sin no more.
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Covenant versus Contract.
A civil court thinks it can "divorce" you, but in essence it can only dissolve the legal aspects of your marriage that the state recognizes -such as financial division of assets, issues with your children, and other contractual matters.
God is the only one who has the power to cement you and your spouse into a one flesh relationship that is a covenant between God and the couple. The state did not bond you together; God did. Therefore, the state has no authority to separate you. Thus, Jesus said,
"What God has joined together, let no man separate."
And, as xyzcf stated, because GOD does not recognize a state sanctioned divorce, marrying a second/third/fourth partner is adultery since in God's eyes, you are still MARRIED to your covenant spouse. HE is still holding you to the vows YOU made, regardless of whether your spouse is being faithful to his/her vows at the present time.
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No, you can take the Eucharist if divorced as long as in you intend to remain faithful to your wife and your wedding vows.
A divorce is a man made legal document that dissolves a marriage. Unless your marriage is annulled, you are still married in the eyes of the Catholic church.
If you enter into a another relationship after you are divorced, you are then committing adultery which would put you into a sin category that would not allow you to participate in the Eucharist unless you went to confession, were absolved and promised to sin no more.
This is from the article you posted under "Myths about annullments"
1. Once people divorce they are no longer part of the church. Divorced people are excommunicated and are no longer able to receive the sacraments.
Nothing could be further from the truth. This is an old carry-over from the 1917 Code of Canon Law. Those who divorce and have not remarried are in full communion and may approach all sacraments. For those divorced and remarried, the church requests they not approach the sacrament of Eucharist until they have secured a valid marriage in the eyes of the church.
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What does the BIBLE say? The church is but a body of people, sinners, imperfect christians.
Jesus said "I am the way" Not "the church is they way"
What does GOD say? There are quite a few passages. I believe God releases us from the marriage when the other partner abandones us and moves on with some one else. We are released. I do believe in standing when you know there is something going on like MLC and there is a great hope that this is temporary. BUt for many of us, the abuse and lack of comittment started way before. I don't believe God is going to hold me to my marriage when my H will not return or repent.
Also, to those who have divorced or left their spouse "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness" No sin is too great that God cannot forgive. The church cannot say who can be in relationship with God. God calls all of us to be in relationship with him.
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DGU, X and all - My opinion on annulment is very much like what RCR wrote last year. I abhor the concept of divorce and annulment EXCEPT in the case of grave abuse or outright abandonment (which is, in itself, an abuse). I stand behind that no one should have to live in an abusive relationship, but also that no one should have to be treated in such a way as many of us have and continue to be. I took my vows with the intention of spending eternity with my W by my side. We even own our own gravesites, in fact, and the two plots are side by side. W has said (early on) that she would still be buried there in the little Catholic cemetery where my family is buried. To me, I am married until the day I die but to her (who is also a cradle Catholic) it doesn't work that way.
Now, despite what I have put up with over the years the thought of D was never truly even considered. Now I find myself heading for D that I had nothing to do with starting and have not participated in helping. I have been abandoned and left to fend for myself and the kids. If my W goes through with it and moves on, I have no desire to be a martyr or spend the rest of my life lonely. According to the church I would have grounds because W apparently did not enter the contract of matrimony with the intention of holding up her side of the bargain. There would be no reason keeping me from being truly free to pursue an appropriate relationship and marriage still in the good graces of the church. Do I detest annulments and the fact that they are making it easier? Absolutely!! I think just this fact is influencing individuals to either forsake or never intend to keep their vows and marriage is becoming more a formality than a life-long commitment anymore.
The only reason I would pursue an annulment is if W continues to abandon me and shows no sign of ever committing again. In these whole 15 months she has not once expressed one bit of regret or intent to ever return to the family. Even if I accept that MLC is temporary (which it isn't in all cases) then it may be 7-10 years and by that time W and I will be very different people. Is it fair for me to wait 10 years to see if W is going to change her mind or not? I would not expect her to do the same. Were she not pursuing legal channels to end our M and therefore free her to do whatever in her mind then I would likely feel much differently. But the fact remains that one person cannot make a marriage. We could say vows to Tom Cruise or Britney Spears but that doesn't make them our spouses as they would not be committed to us. It's the same principle with our spouses, who if they decide to relinquish their vows and move forward as our spouses no longer then they are no longer our spouses and (controversial here) may never have been in the first place. I do question sometimes whether W ever was committed to me or if I was just convenient to have kids by.
So, I AM opposed to D and to annulments being easier to get but ironically it might be the best choice for me and the only way for me to be able to move on and still retain the good graces of the church I have no intention of abandoning. And as far as the place of the church, I believe that St. Peter was the first Pope and that the church dates back to Jesus' time. That's pretty old school, but then again I'm a pretty old school guy in most ways (countdown to DGU disputing that 10.....9......8).
Sorry if I ramble. I'm up with only 2-3 hours sleep because of a headache. Hopefully can go back to bed soon once it subsides.
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I abhor the concept of divorce and annulment EXCEPT in the case of grave abuse or outright abandonment (which is, in itself, an abuse). I stand behind that no one should have to live in an abusive relationship, but also that no one should have to be treated in such a way as many of us have and continue to be.
As Christians, Jesus is our example. What did he tell us? It's possible Jesus felt quite abandoned when at the cross he said "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?".
To me, I am married until the day I die but to her (who is also a cradle Catholic) it doesn't work that way.
Or at least to her it doesn't work that way in her current emotional state.
According to the church I would have grounds because W apparently did not enter the contract of matrimony with the intention of holding up her side of the bargain.
She has been in MLC your entire marriage?
There would be no reason keeping me from being truly free to pursue an appropriate relationship and marriage still in the good graces of the church.
Other posters have made some points to you on this certainly worthy of consideration, but of course you must decide what you believe.
The only reason I would pursue an annulment is if W continues to abandon me and shows no sign of ever committing again.
Well, you won't know if she "ever" commits again until the end of her life.
In these whole 15 months she has not once expressed one bit of regret or intent to ever return to the family.
Thundarr....really? I doubt there is a collective jaw drop on this forum that your wife has not expressed regret by month 15 of MLC.
Even if I accept that MLC is temporary (which it isn't in all cases) then it may be 7-10 years and by that time W and I will be very different people.
True, and since it's a developmental process, it's quite possible that being "different" may even result in being more mature and emotionally developed.
Is it fair for me to wait 10 years to see if W is going to change her mind or not?
I don't know if Jesus said to follow his teachings only when you think life is treating you fairly.
I do question sometimes whether W ever was committed to me or if I was just convenient to have kids by.
If this were true, it's possible she would have either left you soon after childbirth or simply had children with you outside of marriage.
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DGU, once again you speak in absolutes. As if she is DEFINITELY in MLC and as if she will DEFINITELY want to return to the M some day. You also speak of her "present emotional state" as if any emotional state can be constant and enduring for years. Emotional states are fluid and ever-changing, often with elements of several different emotions revolving and evolving. They are not just being one way for months or years at a time.
I'm a stander, but do I accept that there will come a time that I will no longer feel the desire/ need/ logic in standing? Of course. I have said many times that I will not stand forever. Is there a chance that my W WILL change her mind and want to reconcile and return to the M? Of course. There is a chance in any relationship breakup that one or both parties will change their mind and want to return to the relationship. But, you speak as if the odds were in favor of her wanting to return and once again act as H and W. I believe that line of thinking is dangerous, my friend. I see the importance of comforting the newbies with the fact that what is going on MAY not be permanent as when we are in those first few months we are incapable of making rational decisions and the fear of seeking a new relationship or lifestyle is overwhelming. But, once we have been on this journey for awhile we begin to evaluate the facts of what is going on and the "big picture" independent of what "emotional state" we perceive our spouses to be in. The "big picture" is that my W has taken sufficient action to end my marriage and your XW is now married to someone else. At the end of the day both of our cases may end up being permanent. We don't know and we have to make a decision about what is best in each of our lives. Perhaps we are both meant to move on to other, more fulfilling relationships and perhaps our W/ XW will find their happiness elsewhere or stick it out and make it work regardless. Even from the inside of this mess you have to admit that sometimes it is best to throw in the towel (even a yellow one :)) and cut your losses in order to win again some other day. As Rookie said on my thread, though, I don't have an ounce of quit in me but I may have to find one in order to salvage my children and myself.
I don't mean to be negative, DGU, but rather realistic. We are not newbies and are either at or nearing a point to where we can look at things objectively. Most on here, LT and DB will not have their spouses return. RCR has said that many times. I don't want a D and would do anything in my power to prevent it. You know that. But, it is beyond my power and what I'm left with is 'Where do I go from here?" Do I want my W to come back? I would give everything I own just for one more loving embrace from her. I see her several times a week and she is so close but yet a million miles away. I want nothing more than to feel her love once more before I die, but to be blunt that may never happen. Perhaps she is not MLC and perhaps she HAS moved on. Perhaps I'm like the lone patron sitting in the diner that has closed permanently and waiting for someone to take my order. How long would you sit in that diner before you realize the power is off, the doors locked and everyone has gone home? Would you sit and wait at the table for the original owner to possibly open it back up someday? Or would you stay there until you starved to death while telling yourself "People who close businesses sometimes try to re-open them." I prefer not to starve.
When I reach the day that I believe my M really is over for good and that the odds of her returning are too remote, or when my limits are reached and I no longer WANT my W back then I will pursue an annulment. Does that make me a bad person? Hell no!! I didn't and would not have left her. She left me, discarded like trash as so many of us have been, and made use of the resources she has at her disposal to terminate any bond she has with me other than the kids. I'm not her H anymore, just her "Baby Daddy." If she ever wants me to be more than that again she had best act soon.
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But, you speak as if the odds were in favor of her wanting to return and once again act as H and W. I believe that line of thinking is dangerous, my friend.
This is NOT LT or DB, This IS HEROS' SPOUSE and the philosophy here from what I have studied is that MLC ends and the likelihood is VERY good that they will want to return to the marriage, but in many cases the LBSer has moved on. RCR's reason d'etre for this site is to maybe change those stats, that more people will be encouraged to "stand" and be ready for the day that their MLCer wakes up.
Jim Conway's research also says the same..over 30 years of studying MLC.
I have said this before..if you are not comfortable with the philosophy that is expressed here then feel free to leave. But do not TWIST things around so that you can have the answer that you want. You are doing the same thing with the issue of annulment...you did not read one word that I wrote concerning what the conditions are for annulment...typical...you only read what you WANT to hear.
In the greater scheme of things, you will answer to God ultimately on how you proceed with you life.
I see the importance of comforting the newbies with the fact that what is going on MAY not be permanent as when we are in those first few months we are incapable of making rational decisions and the fear of seeking a new relationship or lifestyle is overwhelming.
I have never read anywhere that RCR's advice is for newbies to placate them or stick a soother in their mouths. No, as more time passes, it is even more important to study her work and allow the process to unwind as it will eventually some day.
I am not a newbie to this and nether is DGU and you know what...after he disclosed that his wife had remarried and that he is still standing I was totally in awe of his faith and his belief in the sacrament of marriage.
3 years ago, a priest asked me how long I was willing to wait...and I answered forever I guess. He looked at me closely and said "do you believe that marriage is forever" and I answered yes. That was true 35 years ago, 3 years ago and still remains true today. For me "as for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord".
Justify all you want Thundaar. RCR has always said that it is up to the LBSer whether they wish to continue standing or not.
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DGU, once again you speak in absolutes.
I would ask you to count the number of times you use the words "never", "ever", and "definitely" compared to the number of times I do.
As if she is DEFINITELY in MLC and as if she will DEFINITELY want to return to the M some day.
You do happen to be on a website dedicated to MLC, so I doubt I would talk about her tendonitis. The word definitely is an absolute. Would you mind pointing out to me where I said she would definitely return? What I am asking you about is how your belief system is going to drive your decision making.
You also speak of her "present emotional state" as if any emotional state can be constant and enduring for years.
You are catching on.....that's why I called it her "present" emotional state. I'm guessing her emotional state was not this way not so long ago.
Emotional states are fluid and ever-changing, often with elements of several different emotions revolving and evolving. They are not just being one way for months or years at a time.
Perhaps that's one reason MLCers cycle during the crisis.
I'm a stander, but do I accept that there will come a time that I will no longer feel the desire/ need/ logic in standing? Of course. I have said many times that I will not stand forever.
I get this and have no issue with it. I am asking you to consider how this lines up with your belief system.
But, you speak as if the odds were in favor of her wanting to return and once again act as H and W. I believe that line of thinking is dangerous, my friend.
Interestingly enough, you seem to focus on the word "return". I invite you to check out my posts and see how often I talk about MLCers returning. What I do is help people understand the MLC process and match MLC behavior with RCR and Conway's information. As those who know me will confirm, I do not focus on my ex-wife's return. What I want for her is the MLC process to mature and develop her, then we can see if a return might be possible.
I see the importance of comforting the newbies with the fact that what is going on MAY not be permanent as when we are in those first few months we are incapable of making rational decisions and the fear of seeking a new relationship or lifestyle is overwhelming.
There is a lot of information out there (even mainstream stuff) that says it's not typically permanent. And newbies probably need more than just a few months.
But, once we have been on this journey for awhile we begin to evaluate the facts of what is going on and the "big picture" independent of what "emotional state" we perceive our spouses to be in.
Maybe you don't believe that your wife's current emotional state is driving her decision making. That's up to you. But I do believe MLC is driving my ex-wife's decisions and I will share that belief on here. I get comments from others that appreciate the calm, rational perspective that I am able to offer. That's my role.
The "big picture" is that my W has taken sufficient action to end my marriage and your XW is now married to someone else. At the end of the day both of our cases may end up being permanent.
As a professional, you might have better access to statistics than I do.....but from what I understand, there is a high probability that my ex-wife's marriage to other man will not be permanent. And you notice I did not say she would "definitely return". I'm not a putting the cart before the horse kind of guy.
We don't know and we have to make a decision about what is best in each of our lives. Perhaps we are both meant to move on to other, more fulfilling relationships and perhaps our W/ XW will find their happiness elsewhere or stick it out and make it work regardless.
I try to make those decisions based on my belief system. And this thread is about your belief system.
Even from the inside of this mess you have to admit that sometimes it is best to throw in the towel (even a yellow one :)) and cut your losses in order to win again some other day.
I may throw in the towel if I can't fix my car.
I don't mean to be negative, DGU, but rather realistic.
My intent is to be informational and help people match their actions to their beliefs.
We are not newbies and are either at or nearing a point to where we can look at things objectively.
My belief system is the same 2.5 years later as it was at bomb drop.
Most on here, LT and DB will not have their spouses return. RCR has said that many times.
She has said it. I don't know if she has said it "many" times.....but again, I don't focus on the return.
Perhaps I'm like the lone patron sitting in the diner that has closed permanently and waiting for someone to take my order.
So you are about to compare something you know is permanent to something that you don't know is permanent?
How long would you sit in that diner before you realize the power is off, the doors locked and everyone has gone home? Would you sit and wait at the table for the original owner to possibly open it back up someday? Or would you stay there until you starved to death while telling yourself "People who close businesses sometimes try to re-open them." I prefer not to starve.
I am nowhere near starving.
When I reach the day that I believe my M really is over for good and that the odds of her returning are too remote, or when my limits are reached and I no longer WANT my W back then I will pursue an annulment. Does that make me a bad person? Hell no!! I didn't and would not have left her. She left me, discarded like trash as so many of us have been, and made use of the resources she has at her disposal to terminate any bond she has with me other than the kids. I'm not her H anymore, just her "Baby Daddy." If she ever wants me to be more than that again she had best act soon.
Quite an emotional post. I hope you can continue to work through your anger. Again the intent of what I say is to help you consider matching your beliefs with your actions. If you are doing that, then all is well.
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In these whole 15 months she has not once expressed one bit of regret or intent to ever return to the family.
Thundarr....really? I doubt there is a collective jaw drop on this forum that your wife has not expressed regret by month 15 of MLC.
Even if I accept that MLC is temporary (which it isn't in all cases) then it may be 7-10 years and by that time W and I will be very different people.
However that does no mean we have to take them back. I think most of them return but we may no longer want them back. However I’m not certain they all turn out to me more mature and emotionally developed than they were before the crisis. In my cousin’s case that has not happened. At least not yet but we are 3 weeks short of his “wake up”. Becoming more mature as also only happened to a former male MLCer I know when, after married OW and have had twins with her, he wanted back to first wife and she had moved on. To some it seems they really need to feel all is lost. Otherwise, some how, they don’t fully mature. But it is impossible to say which ones are like this. Some return while the LBS is still willing to take them back, and seem to have changed for the better and mature.
The thing with MLC is that there are no certainties. So, I think DGU is right, the only thing we can do is to match our beliefs with our actions. For me that leaves me with a problem: I get the MLC process and have no doubt my husband is having one, however my beliefs do not include a spouse who mistreat, abandons, lives with another person. I would not remain married to an alcoholic or drug addict if my husband had become one, nor to an abuser. And I’m not sure I would remain married to someone with certain psychiatric diseases. Both our civil law and Catholic law allow for divorce/annulment in the case of insanity. I’m not a Catholic so the last is not an issue to me. So, is MLC a mental illness/insanity, even if temporary? To me, yes. But that is a personal view, you do not have to have the same view.
On the other hand it is correct than the Church (Catholic or other) is man made and that the Church and God are not one and the same thing.
Anyway Thundarr, I don’t think that in the middle of the emotional turmoil you’re finding yourself it is a good idea to be thinking about annulments. Nor I would run after one just because I’ve become divorced. I think giving it time to dust to settle would be a good idea.
edited for end quote brackets - not sure if they are in the right place. limitless
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In these whole 15 months she has not once expressed one bit of regret or intent to ever return to the family.
Thundarr....really? I doubt there is a collective jaw drop on this forum that your wife has not expressed regret by month 15 of MLC.
I am almost 41 months post BD. My H has never ever showed any confusion on this or given any indication he wishes to return to our family. Not one time.
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I am 53 months past when my H moved out and like Trusting's H, my H has never really wavered either on his intent to abandon not just me, but our two children. My son, now 18 and leaving for NYU in a few weeks, has not had the Father that he deserves since he was
an eighth grader. My daughter was a high school junior when H left and is now in graduate school. What has happened in our lives is not fair to any of us, but especially not fair to our beloved children.
I will not lie. The loneliness is gut wrenching. I miss my H every hour of every day.
God said a covenant is forever and since marriage is a covenant, I will stand forever. When God speaks that loudly to you, you stand in obedience. In fact, I stand in faithfulness to God's sacrifice for me. My marriage being restored will be a bonus to bringing my H back to God. My H currently is not saved and in fact, like other MLCers, has turned away from God and his faith. I stand and pray for my H's salvation.
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On the other hand it is correct than the Church (Catholic or other) is man made and that the Church and God are not one and the same thing.
According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
The Church-Body of Christ
789 The comparison of the Church with the body casts light on the intimate bond between Christ and his Church. Not only is she gathered around him; she is united in him, in his body. Three aspects of the Church as the Body of Christ are to be more specifically noted: the unity of all her members with each other as a result of their union with Christ; Christ as head of the Body; and the Church as bride of Christ.
Each time mass is celebrated, in the consecration of the bread and the wine, Christ is there..today just like He was 2,000 years ago.
John and Andrew had an encouter with Christ and became His disciples and along with the other 9 were sent by Christ out into the world to spread Christianity. That was the beginning of the Church..it was made by God just like every other thing in the universe.
The encounter with Christ continues today..it is not an event that just occurred 2,000 years ago..it is happening here, now, every minute of every day.
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I’m sorry xyzcf but the Roman Catholic Church is man made and so are many of its rules and regulations, several of which have been changed many times along the centuries on different Consilia. I know the Bible and religious history but I’m not a Catholic. And, as you know, the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, was written by men.
I understand, and respect, you and others who have a religious view on the matter, my view is the one of an Historian & Philosopher. We come from different perspectives and backgrounds. Nothing wrong with that.
Yet, none of this changes the reasons under which, currently, the Catholic Church grants a marriage annulment. It also does not change that 15 months is very little time for MLC.
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Quote
The Church-Body of Christ
789 The comparison of the Church with the body casts light on the intimate bond between Christ and his Church. Not only is she gathered around him; she is united in him, in his body. Three aspects of the Church as the Body of Christ are to be more specifically noted: the unity of all her members with each other as a result of their union with Christ; Christ as head of the Body; and the Church as bride of Christ.
Exactly! CHRIST is the HEAD of the Church. So what does CHRIST have to say about Divorce and marriage? I do not see any mention of Anulments in the Bible.
It is also through Christ that we can know God, not through the Church. The Church is the body and NOT the head.
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As a practicing devout Catholic, I think I have the right to comment on this topic. While I appreciate other people commenting about my church's teaching from those who are not Catholics, but clearly have very strong opinions about the teaching of the church when it comes to divorce and annulments, I would like to say that one must be careful in passing off opinions and judgments about another person's faith. In my opinion, some comments have come across disparaging towards the Catholic Church and while the Church is not perfect, please name for me one other faith denominational church that is without sin or without manmade rules and precepts to live by? The Lutherans, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, etc, Jewish and even Isalmic religions, etc all have guidelines of which their faithful must live by to be members of their church. Personally, I don't condone the Islamic law of stoning a person for committing adultery (no matter how angry I am at my H's OW), I think it is wrong, but using it as an example to make one's argument stronger about what is right or wrong with another person's church when you talk about something that may not be familiar to you but only have a cursory knowledge of, can be harmful sometimes.
Personally Thundarr, I think this subject is extremely personal and is not really a matter of public discussion and has the potential to cause people to hold fast to their own personal strong beliefs sometimes at the expense of hurting another's faith walk whether they are standing for their marriage or are divorced or will be divorced.
As a Catholic, my divorce is a legal contract with the state that is getting dissolved. I am not in a position to seek an annulment in the church as I have no desire to be with a man or annul my marriage. It is way too soon to be discussing these issues right now. If and when I am, i will seek the counsel of a canon lawyer as opposed to the MLC forum, no matter how wonderful you all are. Annulments in the church are not so easy to get. They are not rubber stamped when the paperwork is submitted. So for everyone on this thread to be worried that the church granting annulments willy nilly really has no clue about canon law and what is adjudicated when submitting the paperwork. I can guarantee you that some Catholics on this forum who are against annulments may one day be cursing the very same church that refuses to grant their annulment from their MLC spouse for some reason, and this same person will not be able to remarry the new love of their life and partake in the sacraments of the church. The church can be loved one day and then despised and hated the next.
Throughout the ages it has always been easy to bash the Catholic Church. In the spirit of kindness, I respectfully ask that this thread does not become a place to argue what is wrong with the Catholic Church. My divorce and situation is difficult enough. I really don't want to feel judged by others because of the church I belong to or what it represents.
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AMEN SavingGrace!! Thank you. I agree wholeheartedly.
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This IS HEROS' SPOUSE and the philosophy here from what I have studied is that MLC ends and the likelihood is VERY good that they will want to return to the marriage, but in many cases the LBSer has moved on. RCR's reason d'etre for this site is to maybe change those stats, that more people will be encouraged to "stand" and be ready for the day that their MLCer wakes up.
Jim Conway's research also says the same..over 30 years of studying MLC.
I really appreciate this position. Thank-you.
I was not raised catholic. I have ancestors of catholic faith and many other christian forms. I myself have felt I was either agnostic or gnostic most of my life. Whatever that means now! I married a Catholic. His mother refused to accept me because my husband had been married twice before with no annulments. I believe he may have tried to get his first wife to get an annulment to please his mother (she was married when they met). It's a bloody mess.
But I am standing for my marriage. I told him: I am going Catholic on your as*. I am perfectly happy to be Catharine of Aragon, embrasing my Catholic past, etc. Why? We weren't even married in a church! But it doesnt matter. I have a child. I know that my husband is my partner deep down...somewhere in there is the person God wants me to be with. And I have to prove that I can survive his personality disorder where other women could not. I will stand for the marriage. He can make it through this. He can heal. I will wait. There is nothing in the world of more importance than these sacraments. I get that.
But what a mess...we tried to do the annulment thing for him for both his first and second marriages. He started the process. It was difficult. But he could have done it. I think mentally he just couldnt revisit those marriages and so we never finished the application. This really reveals how much suffering he still endures over his first marriages. He has not resolved any of it. And as his spouse, I will try to help him even if it means letting go.
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Saving Grace,
As a non-Catholic who has received counsel about my stand for marriage restoration from a Catholic priest, my opinion is that the Catholic Church holds the marriage covenant in higher regard than Protestant denominations do. In fact, my discussions with a priest showed that Catholics still adhere to Christ's teaching that marriage after a divorce is adultery.
That said, the whole concept of an annulment did not emanate from our Lord and is just not Biblical. Whether one submits the proper paperwork and has an annulment granted or not doesn't change the fact that man (clergy in the Catholic Church) NOT GOD invented the entire process. Nowhere in the 8 main scriptures where Jesus and/or Paul gives us the Lord's commands on marriage and divorce is annulment ever mentioned.
And yes, ALL Christian denominations have man-made rules which do not line up with God's Word; which is why it is so important to read
scripture for ourselves and not just accept whatever our particular church teaches. Clergy are sinners just like we are and make denominational rules for all sorts of reasons. But, if those rules do not line up with the Word, then we need to follow Jesus and NOT the man made fallacy.
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SG - Excellent post, and I agree completely. The original intent of the thread was to facilitate a discussion between the many Catholic members here and how they felt about how the church (the local one, at least) was working to make it easier to get an annulment. A few years ago I didn't even know what that word really meant, but in many ways it has become something I have to face now whether I want to or not. I'll link an article that explains in a little more plain English what an annulment really is. "What God has joined no man can tear asunder" is not overridden, but rather the determination from the tribunal was that a "marriage" never happened in the first place due to one party's lack of intent or ability to consent for one of 4 reasons. According to my priest friend, I could qualify for one based on my W being too immature at the time to commit to what matrimony really means. If she had unresolved issues that prevented her from upholding her commitment, then her commitment was invalid. We shall see what time brings, but make no mistake that I DO NOT WANT D OR ANNULMENT. In fact I would make any sacrifice necessary to prevent that, but I am only stating that annulment may be a last resort for me if my marriage is over for good.
http://www.beginningcatholic.com/catholic-annulment.html
DGU - Points well-taken, but I think you may have missed my meaning or I wasn't clear enough. If I continue to assume that my W is MLC and if I continue to assume that it is a temporary condition, then my decision to stand is already made as that is what I committed to when we married. But, what if she isn't and there really was more going on in my relationship than I realized and what if she has no intention of coming back (and never does). My belief system is the same as X, SG, LC and many others here in that I have every intention of honoring my marital vows but my intentions may be a moot point at this time. I have no interest in living like a monk if my W has abandoned me and makes it permanent. Will she be living in adultery? According to the church, yes, and I am left to wonder if she realizes this and whether or not it matters to her at this point. I am somewhat uplifted by the fact that she mentioned wanting to spend a couple days at a monastery last month as it gives me hope that God is guiding her somewhat in all of this. I AM NOT taking any kind of easy way out, as I believe X was assuming, but rather I have to accept the possible finality of all of this and accept what might lie in my future.
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My dearest T,
You are burdening your soul with a heavy dose of spiritual matters that you need not carry right now. Currently you are dealing with way too many unpredictable behaviors presented by your W. She is not a well woman and talks of D, which may be imminent, are not bringing you comfort to your afflicted state; and certainly the whole matter of annulments brings further confusion.
We both know and understand as Catholics that marriage is sacred. It is a holy institution that has been elevated to a sacrament, a sacrament like Holy Orders and our vocation like the priesthood but is marriage. This reality of our faith as we bear the overwhelming responsibility of fulfilling our role in the salvific walk in the Lord as married persons brings about a sense of honor and duty to such a holy commitment. When this commitment is destroyed by one party by the sin of adultery or other grave matters such as abuse, it is not just the betrayal of our spouse that is lost but the rending and tearing of a vow and commitment that was made in God’s name, before Him and in front of His people. This is a sorrowful and painful sin for those who endure it and for those who have lost their marriage to such destruction, and a spiritual destruction for that matter as well.
In light of all this, even though we are “two who have become one flesh”in the union of our marriage, we do not know the state of our offending spouse’s soul before God. By church law we know they are or will be living in adultery if they live with the OP or marry. It is not for us to judge their state before God. We must look to our own hearts and minds and relationship with the Lord and let God deal with our spouses. We must submit them to prayer but we you should not wonder if they realize what they are doing, especially for those of us whose spouses are afflicted with a changed personality, MLC or mental, emotional or psychological instability.
Will she be living in adultery? According to the church, yes, and I am left to wonder if she realizes this and whether or not it matters to her at this point.
I daresay your W probably doesn’t realize half the things she does and the thought of living in adultery post divorce is not even an issue with her.
T, if you get divorced, deal with that very big issue first and heal from those incredible deep wounds. The Lord will lead you to the right time if and when you are to pursue discussions about annulments. However, you need to be healed and made whole as a man and as a husband before you can even consider advancing to the next level. In that time, you have NO idea what God can do to restore your wife, your marriage or your family. And if you must continue your life without your wife by your side, you will be a man of honor and a man of God for having been purged through the fire of his love. You will not have to live like a monk. God will bless your life richly. You just don’t know how at this point. So take one day at a time and let His will unfold.
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DGU - Points well-taken, but I think you may have missed my meaning or I wasn't clear enough.
But, what if she isn't and there really was more going on in my relationship than I realized and what if she has no intention of coming back (and never does).
My belief system is the same as X, SG, LC and many others here in that I have every intention of honoring my marital vows but my intentions may be a moot point at this time.
Three sentences....three "buts"
I have no interest in living like a monk
I understand this is a primary motivator for you. The book "His Needs, Her Needs" addresses this.
if my W has abandoned me and makes it permanent.
When will you know if it's permanent? (and yes, as I alluded to before, the end of her life is the correct answer)
Will she be living in adultery? According to the church, yes, and I am left to wonder if she realizes this and whether or not it matters to her at this point.
From RCR (I've posted this to you a few times)
Conscious decision making is not part of MLC—if they make conscientious decisions it’s not MLC. If they choose to not avoid; it’s not MLC.
I am somewhat uplifted by the fact that she mentioned wanting to spend a couple days at a monastery last month as it gives me hope that God is guiding her somewhat in all of this.
Thundarr....your goal is speed. From your earlier post.
"If she ever wants me to be more than that again she had best act soon."
From RCR's article on Acceptance
If your goal is speed, it will fail.
I AM NOT taking any kind of easy way out, as I believe X was assuming, but rather I have to accept the possible finality of all of this and accept what might lie in my future.
So how do you know if it's final, or just possibly final?
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So, DGU, how long would you suggest one live with possibilities rather than probabilities. Anything is possible but we do not live our lives based on that, well at least the only ones I know who do are the ones who play the lottery religiously and truly believe that they will win so there is no sense in planning for retirement. Even if they played 10 tickets every day the probability that they will ever win enough to live the rest of their life on is astronomically low. Do you live your life with the possibility that you may win the lottery or do you go to work every day and life your life as if you won't. I foresee you saying you don't play the lottery but you catch my drift.
Sometimes I wonder if it may have been best for all of us to just assume from day one that this is permanent and that our spouses are not coming back. Perhaps then we would all be able to detach and move forward in our lives, and then if our ex-spouses decide they want to come back then we could evaluate where we are in our lives at the time. Sometimes I wonder if we are simply holding on to ghosts or clutching at shadows. I do have faith and acknowledge that God can act in both our lives as well as our spouses but then again it may be his will that it is over, or that it never was. Perhaps we are all off the path he wants us on and the correct road will not cross paths with our spouses again. Perhaps mine, yours and many other marriages here have run their course. What then for those left behind? Are we to deprive ourselves of intimate companionship, love and everything else our spouses stole when they left? How.......illogical.
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So, DGU, how long would you suggest one live with possibilities rather than probabilities.
From my earlier post
I try to make those decisions based on my belief system.
Are we to deprive ourselves of intimate companionship, love and everything else our spouses stole when they left? How.......illogical.
And yet, ironically (to use one of the words you like to use) this thread is on the subject of your.......faith.
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But, what is faith? Faith in what? Faith that our marriages will be restored or that God will bring another wonderful person into our lives for us to share our journey with? Faith that what has happened is for the best and that our marriage has run its course? How are we to interpret what our faith is telling us? It is subjective, my friend.
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But, what is faith?
Check with Webster......oh, and there "might" be an article from RCR about it. You can check if you are interested.
Faith in what?
Or who? (or is it whom?)
Faith that our marriages will be restored or that God will bring another wonderful person into our lives for us to share our journey with?
You tell me.....is the Bible a story of reconciliation?
Faith that what has happened is for the best and that our marriage has run its course?
Does the Bible talk about God's best for us, or does it talk about marriages that have run their course?
How are we to interpret what our faith is telling us?
See above
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Sometimes I wonder if it may have been best for all of us to just assume from day one that this is permanent and that our spouses are not coming back. Perhaps then we would all be able to detach and move forward in our lives, and then if our ex-spouses decide they want to come back then we could evaluate where we are in our lives at the time.
Yes. It's called "Living as if..."!!
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T,
What is faith? Faith in what? It is subjective.
I want to encourage you my dear friend that the faith you seek is not in the marriage or in the restoration of your marriage. These are by products of the faith you seek. Faith in what is not the question. It is faith in who?
Jesus's first miracle was the wedding at Cana. The first sign of the coming of the Lord was revealed in the celebration of a marriage. Jesus turned water into wine. This miracle was not meant for the people to embrace the wine only as the gift, but the wine was pointing to Jesus as the Anointed One. Our faith is in Him, driving us to yearn and desire Him, to love Him and to want His will and His mercy in our lives. When we live firmly in this bedrock of truth, the gifts of marriage, children, abundant blessings and even sufferings are all part of the divine plan for our lives. The central core, the unchanging reality and relationship with God that teaches us to embrace our daily life and how to live it, is faith. It is not subjective. It is truth, an ever present abiding truth in the love of God and His love for you. Our marriages are benevolent gifts from God. They are means to live our faith walk. If our marriages have been destroyed, it is up to us to live by faith in God that He will heal and reveal all things in due time. We may never be able to dissect and interpret all the reasons why these things happened to us or seek the future for us from these events. To do this is not an act of faith, it is our human response to try and understand why. It is our limited understanding and grasping how to fix something in our human capacity. Faith requires us to overcome the need to dissect these matters and allow God to work in our lives healing us, teaching us and blessing us in our brokenness and sorrow.
Faith is a relationship. All else flows from this relationship.
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Thundarr, what about starting with having faith and believing in yourself and that your wife is in MLC? Then, one day at a time. You seen to doubt too much that your wife is in MLC. You being a therapist should be more able than most of us to get that your wife in unwell.
Ok, I know, MLC makes us doubt ourselves, our marriages, our sanity, and for those who are religious even their Faith in God. Still, you’re here on the board, you have the knowledge a therapist has, you have all the tools to allow to get what is going on with your wife, so why do you keep doubting it? Why do you beat yourself like you do? It is not healthy, it does not do you, the kids, the possibility of a reconciliation any good.
I dare say you are exhausted and in need of rest and of finding ways of reducing the anxiety.
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This is one interesting thread. I've just caught up with it.
I consider myself a "recovering lapsed Catholic." I was raised in the Church but stopped practicing when I was 17. I married my H when I was 20 in a civil ceremony presided over by a justice of the peace. God, sadly, was nowhere in my marriage vows.
I slowly began to return to the Church 7 years ago, 5 years before BD. Frankly the fact my H and I had not married in the Church was a non-issue for me. I hadn't even thought about it as being a potential "problem."
In a recent discussion with the abbot of an abbey I was visiting, he told me that, since I didn't marry in the Church, the Church does not consider me to be married. He also (kindly but clearly) told me that, as far as the Church is concerned, I'd been living as a fornicator for the 37 years my H and I lived together.
He was very sympathetic to my pain and to the horror of my H's abandonment, but he told me that, technically, I couldn't consider my H to be an adulterer in his relationship with OW because he wasn't really married to me in the first place. Wild, huh?
I don't know if this would be the opinion of all priests, but it was eyeopening. The abbot counseled me to "pray for the restoration" of my family and to communicate to God in prayer that, if it was His will for my family to be restored, I would put God at the center of my marriage. One of the first things the priest advised me, if that came about, was my H and I not "fully reconcile" (I think he was referring to having intimate relations!) until we had been married in the Church.
As to the discussion here about annulment, I'm certainly no expert but it has been my impression there are many who believe the Church has become more "lenient" about the granting of annulments. I myself know of two cases that seemed suspect but, of course, I don't know all the details.
One case was my niece who divorced her H of four years. This happened about 15 years ago. They filed for an annulment after the divorce was final and the annulment was granted. The grounds for the annulment were that her H didn't really love her when when they married so, therefore, he married her under false pretenses. In reality I know her H did not want the divorce, my niece was the one who pushed for it. He was the one who wanted the annulment so he could remarry in the Church. So how they were able to make the case her H did not love her at the time of their wedding seemed strange to me.
I did not ask questions but that was my first experience with what appeared to me to be changes in the Church's annulment criteria from the Church of my youth.
The second case I personally know of was the divorce of a professor and his wife at a college where I once worked. They were devout Catholics (especially the H) and had been married, in the Church, for over 30 years. They had 8 children, all grown at the time of their divorce.
When they were in their early 60s (about 12 years ago) the H fell in love with a neighbor woman and decided he wanted to leave his wife and marry the neighbor. He was able to obtain an annulment. I don't know what the grounds of the annulment were but I do know his wife was devastated and I thought at the time that if a Catholic who has been married for three decades and has 8 children with his wife whom he married in the Church can get an annulment what's going on?
So, those are my two incomplete but eyebrow raising annulment stories. My "sense" is that annulment seems to be easier to obtain today. If that's the case, it's sad and distressing.
Interesting topic!
TMHP
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I have been away...but did see this thread a few days ago.
I purposely stayed away from it....because I sensed that the discussion here was exactly what it appears to be. (Yes....I read it this morning).
My parents were originally Catholic...but my father changed to a different "religion" when I was very young. I never confirmed as a Catholic (if that is the correct term) nor did I join the other "religion." Thus, I am not religious - yet I was raised with very strong rules (based upon the Bible, I suppose) and I spent much of my young life studying the Bible.
I have deep respect for those with faith and for those who believe. There are times in my life where I wished that I had faith....and that I had belief - the time of Bomb Drop comes to mind.
Quite honestly, I grew up in a family that was constantly in turmoil over religion. My parents constantly argued over my father's choice in religion. My father was more than a bit "crazy" with it. He still is, by the way.
It left me with zero desire to join or be a member of any religious group. When I met my husband, one of the things that I felt comfortable with was that he was particularly religious nor did he officially belong to any group.
Strangely enough, prior to Bomb Drop - one of the first things that my H "admitted" was that he had secrectly began attending Catholic services and had found God. Later I found that he had started going to the Catholic Church, as his ex-wife was "Catholic through and through" and he wanted to convince her that she was still his wife in God's eyes and that I had been the (30 year) affair! It seems strange to me that his ex-wife, who claimed to be Catholic through and through, seemed to think it was okay to carry on an EA with a married man and also agreed to meet with him for one weekend that I am aware of. I'm guessing after he abandoned us....she realized that it wasn't what she wanted...and she dropped him like a hot potato.
Sorry for the rehashing of old news (I'm sure some of you already know my story) - but I felt the need to add that background before I added my comments.
As far as anulment, my H's ex-wife had their marriage annulled - as she wanted to be able to remarry in the Church. He agreed and signed some paperwork that stated that he never wanted children - so that she could get the anullment. (We have 3 kids, by the way).
I guess I can never really understand how a longterm marriage - one that included children - can be written off as if it never existed? I just cannot fathom the logic behind that.???!!??
As far as Standing forever....or not. I see that as a personal decision. One that doesn't need to be justifed to anyone except that person that you see when you look into the mirror.
Why do I Stand? I ask that question quite often. Just like the rest of you...I'm lonely. I miss the connection with another human being...the affection.....the companionship....having someone to share my life with. But, I guess after having been in a 30+ year relationship....3 kids.....etc....I just don't see a spouse as something that is replace-able. Does that mean I will never again be with someone, should my H not return? No. I don't think so.
Should the divorce go through....and he never return....I believe that there will be a time where I will choose to stop Standing. But, it's not today. And, I'm going out on a limb and saying that it won't be tomorrow, either.
Thundarr...I know this is difficult for you....it is for us all. But, there is no need to try to justify the decisions that you make or that you will make to anyone. If you want to get an annullment....then you can choose to do that. I don't know how your kids may feel about that. I don't know what difference it will make.
If you choose to move on...should your W divorce you....that's okay too. I don't think there is anyone who would fault you....or say that you were wrong to do so.
I would just ask.....that for YOU and for your KIDS.....give it some time. Don't act rashly or thoughtlessly. And don't act on how you feel for TODAY. Tomorrow you may feel differently.
JMHO,
L