Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Absolutely Fabulous on January 17, 2016, 09:01:25 AM
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Which one are you dealing with? A clinger or vanisher? What have been the pros and cons of your journey?
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I so love you!!
First- it's determinng what you really have. After hours of our analyzation, I don't have a vanisher.. He would monster at me, then poof, gone.. I didn't fully understand that mine is a clinger- even though he's an evil only one at this point- his anger and evil is still classic clinging.. If your alien is nothing but pure and utter demon filled evil- and spews and goes dark, only to rinse, cycle, repeat... Congrats you have a clinger that regardless of what they say or do- they are petrified to totally lose you... Long time to get to that point and truly see the difference...
You know how I feel about this and I've had to overcome the jealously within me, who have those clinger boomerangs, that the grass isn't greener... While mine is the stay puffed marshmellow angry alien right now, only clings to growl, snarl, and try to hose me with hot goo to keep me in his circus..
They toy with your emotions, possibly because of the anchor of the children.. I know that's why skletor does it to you... Plus, he's grasping at every single straw to keep crack check you- is there any space for me... Has she boarded up every single nook and cranny- is she really done with me...
Both suck--- we all think the other is better than it is... One ignores us, only acknowledges us to monster, while the other continues their 5 year hissy fit right in front of us...
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I think mine is a clinger. Heavy monster spewing, throwing tantrums, threatening divorce, police called to the house numerous times. I leave and give her what she wants and then there is silence for a few weeks. Until she reaches out and starts complaining that I am not at home.
I am then accused of abandoning the family while she is the one trying to save the marriage. She begs me to come back. She professes how much that she has changed. She is nice for a few days, then Wham, monster is back and the cycle repeats.
I have been through the cycle 3 times now and have become quite good at reading the situation. I agree they are afraid of losing you. I have seen the shift change within my wife. The first 5 months she could have cared less about me. Now she is afraid that I am filing, seeing another woman, and making plans to move on.
I think Im safe until February, LOL, thats when she will be reaching out again.
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I have a vanisher.
He was a clinger until I put on my teflon dress and went NC.
I like the vanisher - no hassle - no worries about what to say what not to say.
Not sure how long the bliss will go on - but so far so good.
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Clinger. I'm debating whats better out of the two myself.
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He started as a clinger, vanished 2012 once he filed for the d. After having had to make contact with him last fall, and with the interactions we've had since, I realize he would have continued to cling, so long as I pursued. It would have been Monster, but still there. He filed as an aggressive response to me presenting him with his total share of our joint debt (plus OW pressure), and I think wanted me to respond with a fight. I didn't, to the point of letting his mail pile up for months and eventually just delivering it through my attorney. I think my silence laid a big layer of shame and guilt on him that made him too weak to reach out to me first. For me though, that was the right thing to do for my healing.
Now, he mirrors whatever I do, but it's usually within a matter of minutes (or seconds, LOL) with electronic contact. I never reach out unless I have to (property matters), and I don't respond unless there's a reason (I leave the conversation first). I deal with him like he's not my favorite client. LOL Cordial, but terse.
For me, the pros of dealing with a clinger were that it kept me in the moment - I dealt with only the "current" him, without space for my imagination to remember who he was. Most of the time that was really frustrating, but it reminded me why it was good he was out of the house! The con of course was the same thing. It's hurtful that he changed.
The pros of a vanisher were that I had space to heal, and I got to really start living my own life. MLC is in my life if I pay attention to it (which I still do, probably too much). The cons are that I miss him (the old him). I cycle more because my imagination puts clues together to guess where he's "at" in the tunnel, and that can be disappointing in a lot of ways. It was initially lonely because at least what I knew, with Monster, was predictable contact with the person I loved most.
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I too have a vanisher, kicked out late june -14, NC since october -14;
pros, my healing comes first, a lot easier to detach I think (even if you can not ever be detached to someone you have had a r with, I think), I have grown up kids so a lot of me me me time. Started swimming lessons Crawl last week before work in the mornings So FUN. Getting a lot closer to my kids also can almost touch the bond between us. Also all of these friends that have stood by me during this period. I think I turned into a real nutcase myself, if I had to deal with this batsh*t crazy person as a boomerang or clinger.
cons, I have almost no clue where he is in his journey. If he's depressed/angry, I know he's not happy (hurt people hurt people, happy people don't behave this way)
Conclusion, I am a "vanisher mlc" kind of woman but I'm impressed with all of you having clinger or stay at home.
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Mine is a boomerang - not sure if he meets the criteria for clinger or not. He's been like this since he left 18 months ago. He's around a lot and at times to the outside observer it will look like nothing has changed. Sometimes he is very pleasant and friendly - other times he is very distant. He rarely monsters anymore. He did that in the beginning before he left.
I personally prefer the boomerang but that's because we have kids. I would hate for him to have just vanished from their lives. Also, if he was monstering or throwing his OW in my face then i might feel different. I suspect they both have their pros and both suck in their own way.
Pros - lots of opportunity to observe his behavior. Lots of opportunity for positive interactions. Less chance for my imagination or anxiety to "make up" explanations for his behavior.
Cons - detaching was probably harder than if he had just vanished.
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I thought for sure mrT was going to disappear of the face of the Earth forever. He has a history of going NC on his family members for years at a time (most often his mom), so I figured he would do the same to me.
I was wrong and he clings, but in the worst possible way.
I will be honest here and say that in the beginning, I hoped he would be a clinger. I thought that way, at least I'd have something of him. But this is not the man I loved and it's hard to heal with him hanging around and ripping old wounds open every time he sees a chance.
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Having at at home wallower, definitely a clinger.
Pros:I can see what is happening, I don't have to guess. He is here for our son (as best he can be-better than nothing). Financial, since he still pays the lion's share of the bills. I have the opportunity to connect in a positive way. He can see my strength. I can see his "children" and have more compassion.
Cons: He's here, but he's not. I can't depend on him for anything, including regarding S. I have the opportunity to connect in a negative way :(. In the beginning, until I could detach, really emotionally rough. Waiting for the other shoe to drop, right here, in my face.
I 100% could not do this if he monstered anymore or if there were an OW. I think a lot of MLCs go this way.
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I have clinger that is cycling. He's at every 7 to 9 days.
Pros: at least he's still contacting the kids. He's not really that interested in them, but I guess he tries. I can also tell when he's stressed and just trying to push no non-existent buttons. It's all touch and goes. And, I have some clue as to what his state of mind is at this time. He's trying to be more cordial. He only texts and emails so it gives me time to respond at my own pace.
Cons: The cycling is trying. He's not supposed to contact me over anything but the kids, most of the time it's not over them. He's constantly fishing for information about me from the kids. And there's evidence of him cyber stalking me. He's demanding when I don't get back to him on his time frame. And, he's still got an arrogant/condescending attitude when he wants something. He also won't answer his phone, so immediate answers are a hassle.
For the most part: it sucks. It's extremely hard to move on and heal with you have someone constantly playing around with the finances and bugging the hell out of you. He owes me money, and expects me to come to him for it. He's been sent the bills from places he needs to pay, but still wants my "input". Or to find out if I'm in agreement with the amount. He knows how much he owes me, but still is trying to control the sitch.
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I've had a hard time figuring out what my X is. He doesn't really fit any category.
He's a wallower, no Monster. no ow, always treated me pretty decent.
If I had to GUESS I'd say a clinger. But not a clinging clinger. LOL
In the beginning he didn't cling at all, but he does now.
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Mine is a Vanisher.
When it comes to acceptance and detachment - having a Vanisher helps the LBS to do these things. You really have no other choice but to accept and detach.
I do not think that having a Vanisher is very positive towards reconciliation, though....but, quite honestly, having contact with a Clinger is just that - contact with a Clinger...I don't know that it is truly reconciliation many times.
I just believe the NC (Vanisher) increases the difficulty in making any contact...as they begin to "wake up."
Again...these are just MY observations from MY situation.
L
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Mines a boomerang,
At times clinging! I don't think he's ever really gone more than about 4 weeks without contact.
When he took up with OW3 whilst he was staying with me a lot of the time - I put a strict NC boundary in place unless there was an emergency!
He now contacts weekly about anything and everything - sometimes it's just to tell me I'm beautiful!
I'm over 5 1/2 years into this.
There is no sense to any of it. We are still married and he lives with OW3!
Sometimes I feel like it's me that's mad, but I know I'm not.
X
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Limited,
I really think you're right. When they vanish you have to accept it and detach. It's also good because there are no harsh words and fighting going on. Those things cause so much pain and resentment.
So in my humble opinion I think it's easier to reconcile with a vanisher. Not as much to get over.
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I am 3 1/2 years into this journey and I am not sure that my XH can be classified. LOL. ::) ::) He is definitely not a clinger. I think if our children were not involved he would be a vanisher. Our only real communication involves the kids and he never asks how I am doing, etc. Still no eye contact, ignores texts, and cannot even say hello when I come to pick up or drop off kids. He is in a classification limbo I guess. Mainly just in an emotionless black abyss of nothing. He, he.
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I have a Vanisher - he is completely checked out.
Complete silence.
No contact whatsoever.
Gone! Never even a touch or go since the day he BD’d
Pros:
- Forced into detaching
- Easier to GAL
- Not having to walk on eggshells or second guess how I should behave
- Protected from monstering
- Will I heal faster? (the jury is still out on this one as healing may have nothing to do with him)
Cons:
- There is a sense of dread & sadness that there can be "no possible closure" in the demise of my marriage
- I agree that reconciliation is less possible with a NC/Vanisher. So very little hope
- Difficult to turn off my imagination as to what he could possibly be going through (OK, clearly I’m not detached)
- Losing respect for my husband and I believe him to be a weak coward who couldn't face real life
- Feel like I'm STUCK living in Limbo Land while Vanisher experiences a new life
You have an interesting point, Thunder. I had not considered that.
There is a school of thought that the longer NC, the lower the chances for reconciliation which requires communications.
But who really knows?
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Sorry if I'm out of topic but, I can't help my self cause I disagree about this, about reconciliation is less possible with a vanisher. I don't believe that, it's not my experience.
My thoughts , with out real academic knowledge in psychology, is the same as what they say about narcissists. They are really weak inside, terrified of abandonment real or imaginary, terrified of stronger or more stubborn people, yet can't remove themselves out of the "victim zone" and show remorse. I think reconnection is totally up to the LBS with vanisher. They will connect, might take years, but every thing is about how the LBS behaves.
I know 3 vanisher;
My dad, vanished after my mums affair (1980) for 4-5 years, tried every way there is to reconnect with me. He had some real abandon issues. Was up to OW#25 or something when he died. Ended up in jail for shooting one woman who wanted to leave him. Played the victim card all his life.
My mum, I've been NC for 6-8 years, got a Birthday card when I turned 50, really strange card. Silly me broke NC and called, no answer but she called back 30 minutes later. I did not take that call, I decided I can't take her narc behavior.
A couple I know, they split up cause the W vanished and ran away with an OM, remarried and divorced within 5 years. During the last 15 years she tries everything to reconnect with the LBS but he is remarried to another lady.
They all reach out over and over again but the "left behind" does not want the reconnection and/or reconciliation (moved on) OR does not have that agape love. I don't even know if I have agape love in me, can you have this kind of love towards people who abused you or done things to your children?
Sorry for bringing up another topic
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Passi, you've made a good point. I doubt that anyone could really know how to "get over it" when it comes to the kids. Mine wants me to marry someone else. They've had to deal with his childish behavior their whole lives, and they're done too.
We believe it's a spiritual thing. So the whole agape love thing gets really hard. It's one thing to do it to us, it's a whole other story to do it to the kids.
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Mine started out sort of a clinger, then boomerang with higher than usual contact, definitely know she's not a clinger now that she's filed for D and is not showing any guilt about it, and has finally moved all her stuff out. Guess I will see if she vanishes once we're done, I'm assuming that will be the case, don't see this ship turning around any time soon.
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Mine was a clinger when he was still at home - first 12 months. He was a boomerang straight after that, then a vanisher for several months and now he is a boomerang again.
He only contacts with monster, never anything else but he sure checks in, not in person, text or email only (coward).
When he was home he was SOOOO horrible, aggressive and in monster most of the time, tried to convince me I was completely mad.
Life was terrible with a clinger but it gave me a good picture into where he was at all the time and that does the LBS no good at all.
H left about 18 months ago and life is much better with very minimal contact and just leaving him to it. Much easier for me to get a life and continue to heal from all he has done.
Don't want him back in the house with me until he's had many months of psychotherapy!!
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Vanisher. Left right after BD, made his announcement and loaded up his truck and left. Lived in a local for a few days then got himself a luxury home to live in. Met OW on vacation and they married right away. Still together. No contact with the kids, no support, nothing. Although today out of the blue, there was an envelope for the kids......a new years card with a photo of him and ow on it!!!!! D didn't open it and said to throw it out. He doesn't speak to the kids ever. He is a sick man.
I rarely think of him these days and feel grateful he is a vanisher. While it was extremely painful at the beginning, especially when looking for answers or any kind of indication of what was going on, overall it has allowed us to heal. My heart breaks for the kids to have a father who abandoned them but their healing was much better I think due to not having to see him or hear from him. He is disgusting towards them. This is the man who flaunted his relationship and wedding to the kids when he visited for less than an hour....only spoke of him and ow and insisted they look at his ring. This is what we were dealing with. I am thankful he has gone and can't imagine dealing with one still living at home or locally.
As always though when he is in touch in any way it throws me off for a day or so, used to be a week. I have grown. I would never go back to how it was.
As for him, he lives in a warm climate and lives the life he always wanted and it seems life with ow is somewhat okay if they are still together. Doesn't matter, all I know is that I am here for the kids and we are very connected. H can carry on his journey. I don't see him ever wanting to c'ome home. That's okay, we aren't sitting around waiting.
Problems are no financial support and our court process came to a standstill. I think they are sitting waiting for me to do something so they can get their money from the house....only thing they are interested in. I think ow will stick around at least for that. Who knows. I do think they seem happy as they've been together over 3 years.
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any comments about a touch and goer? are they considered boomerangs? not sure what mine is tbh.
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Mr J was an über clinger early on. He would be around nearly everyday, call from work, text, you name it. Then I had to move back home. He still clinger but he could not come by. So it was email.
And at a point he quit his job and went and work for his local branch of the company I had come work to. He had made sure he was given the same position I had which meant we needed to had daily professional contact. My local branch closed a year and a few months after I return home.
Since then I have removed myself more and more and Mr J pretty much turned into a vanisher because I do not wanted to carry on talking with in on messenger and gmail chat. If I had wanted he would still be clinging like there was no tomorrow.
Oh, and he loved to have arguments. It really did not matter, since he was getting attention anything was valid. I tired of it, he did not like it.
Mr J has another, inderect, way of clinging, his court cases. But now it seems that even those are over.
I find it much more peaceful to have a vanisher. No more arguments, endless going nowhere talks, attempts of trying to upset me, etc. And no more mood swings, angry outbursts and mania around me.
Here are the links for threads about the different types of MLCers:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3368.0 - VANISHER 2
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=676.0 - Clinging Boomerangs
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1536.0 - Boomerang
http://mlcforum..com/index.php?topic=305.0 - Off-and-On
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3368.0 - VANISHER 2
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=676.0 - Clinging Boomerangs
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1536.0 - Boomerang
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=305.0 - Off-and-On
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Mine started as a clinger then shifted to an Off-On (not really discussed in the resources) once o asked him to leave.
Pros of a clinger: you can to temperature checks very easily. Living with one can push us to be the one to make the decision that they have to leave--meaning, we find our strength and begin taking control of the situation in a way that's best for us.
Cons of a clinger: living with the disrespect drags out our healing. We take steps forward only to be shoved back. The pain mine inflicted during the 8 months he was a basement dweller was horrible.
Pros of an Off-On: temperature checks still happen, but the opportunities for monstering are a lot less. We are able to heal without their interference; we are spared their drama most of the time.
Cons of an Off-On: Having an off-on makes you wonder if he really has let go, and you can still be the target of his wrath.
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I find it much more peaceful to have a vanisher. No more arguments, endless going nowhere talks, attempts of trying to upset me, etc. And no more mood swings, angry outbursts and mania around me.
Same here. What a relief it was for all three of us when H went when it came to that. He would argue or pick a fight over anything and everything then turn it around as if it was me....then he would try to get the kids to side with him :o. After the initial shock and pain of BD we definitely noticed a huge change in the atmosphere at home .....no more anger and daily fights. I love the peace that we have now. Maybe OW gets that from him now. Unfortunate for her but as D said to me today, "She was stupid enough to marry him so its her own fault"
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I got into it with mine just 4 days ago. Our 21st anniversary would have been the 21st of this month. Go figure. I guess the fact that I'm not contacting him ( court ordered, we're only supposed to have contact over the kids; take a wild guess to who has been in contempt of court ever since ) He's using the kids to cling for the most part. He boomerangs in 7-9 day cycles. I called him on it, maybe he'll quit. I don't know.
I agree with the trying to pick fights and get into arguments for them to get attention. Bad attention is better than no attention. Although why they need it from us is a mystery. All over email and texts mind you. He doesn't have enough of a set to talk over the phone.
He's also in flux with the Touch and Goes. Those are fun. ::) I was hoping there would be a real OW by now. One that would be getting all of his attention. As far as I can tell: I'm his favorite person to bug and try to piss off. There's a shock. :o
Funny thing is, he came for Christmas and spent 3 days with me and the kids. Didn't monster once, then he put up a picture on Facebook of who he was supposed to be dating. The infantile narc tactics do get tiring. But, monster he did the other day. It really was a pathetic attempt at getting the best of me. Man, the control and power issues he has are astounding even me.
He's also clinging through cyber space. Lovely. Technology makes it easy, even for vanishers to know what's going on with you.
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Technology makes it easy, even for vanishers to know what's going on with you.
Sure it does, and while that can be a bad thing, it can also be a good thing because once we do the important mirror-work and GAL, we truly do become the a Living Better Spouses--and that is by far the best revenge any of us can have!
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Technology makes it easy, even for vanishers to know what's going on with you.
Sure it does, and while that can be a bad thing, it can also be a good thing because once we do the important mirror-work and GAL, we truly do become the a Living Better Spouses--and that is by far the best revenge any of us can have!
Medusa, I've always said that you are a class act. Truly you are.
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Mine started as a clinger then shifted to an Off-On (not really discussed in the
resources) once o asked him to leave.
Off-On are not much discussed on the resources, but there is a little bit on the
Contact Types article:
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_contact-types.html
And there is the thread about them: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?
topic=305.0
heroIam, check the thread for Off-On (mentioned above) and the one for Boomerang http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1536.0
They are not exactly the same, but there are similarities.
I don't think I could handle having Mr J on my Facebook. Luckely the Facebook (and Twitter) trend only come along a while after Mr J left. When he left the it thing was MySpace. Yes, it was that long ago. ::)
Better Living Spouse is so much better and nice than Left Behind Spouse. Even because, after a while, we are no longer the one Left Behind. The Left Behind one is the MLCer. And will be until they do the work on themselves.
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I don't know what mine is...maybe someone that has followed my thread can tell me.
He vanished to another state with OW. We have a company together that keeps us in contact with each other through email. If it wasn't for that he would probably be an vanisher. I don't think I would hear from him because of guilt. It would be interesting to know what he would do if it wasn't for the business. it would probably speed this process up. He doesn't monster right now and hasn't for a few months. He nice most of the time.
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I just believe the NC (Vanisher) increases the difficulty in making any contact...as they begin to "wake up."
Like us, they have had to adapt to a new environment when they leave, which maybe isn't so bad for them either and becomes their "new normal" just as ours has. I imagine if and when my H ever does "wake up" he will credit OW and life as they know it will improve. Then again that is me and my inability at times to think life with OW is anything but rosy, even though I would be the first to tell others it couldn't be when it is about someone else. ::)
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Thanks for the reminder of that thread, Anjae!
What I believe is that while they are going through the tunnel, they need to disappear, at least for awhile. When we say get out of their way, it's not only for our own protection but to help them progress. This is the issue I see with clingers--when they can't detach from us, how are they supposed to figure out that we aren't the source of their misery?
I haven't heard a peep from mine in a couple of weeks. I won't be surprised if I do hear from him soon, though, since he's going to get the pleasure of being served with D papers this week. I'm mentally preparing for all hell to break loose when that happens, but so be it. It's all part of the experience, right?
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Thanks for the reminder of that thread, Anjae!
What I believe is that while they are going through the tunnel, they need to disappear, at least for awhile. When we say get out of their way, it's not only for our own protection but to help them progress. This is the issue I see with clingers--when they can't detach from us, how are they supposed to figure out that we aren't the source of their misery?
I haven't heard a peep from mine in a couple of weeks. I won't be surprised if I do hear from him soon, though, since he's going to get the pleasure of being served with D papers this week. I'm mentally preparing for all hell to break loose when that happens, but so be it. It's all part of the experience, right?
Trust and believe all hell will break loose. He's going to pull out all of the stops. He will know that's he's lost control, and will lose his mind. Be prepared. It was what mine did.
Mine is still blaming me post divorce, and I don't contact him, he contacts me. All the projection that I'm getting is still going on. I'm getting accused of not moving on, and it still going on. The clinging won't stop. So, you're right, you do need to brace yourself.
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Thanks for the reminder of that thread, Anjae!
What I believe is that while they are going through the tunnel, they need to disappear, at least for awhile. When we say get out of their way, it's not only for our own protection but to help them progress. This is the issue I see with clingers--when they can't detach from us, how are they supposed to figure out that we aren't the source of their misery?
I haven't heard a peep from mine in a couple of weeks. I won't be surprised if I do hear from him soon, though, since he's going to get the pleasure of being served with D papers this week. I'm mentally preparing for all hell to break loose when that happens, but so be it. It's all part of the experience, right?
Trust and believe all hell will break loose. He's going to pull out all of the stops. He will know that's he's lost control, and will lose his mind. Be prepared. It was what mine did.
Mine is still blaming me post divorce, and I don't contact him, he contacts me. All the projection that I'm getting is still going on. I'm getting accused of not moving on, and it still going on. The clinging won't stop. So, you're right, you do need to brace yourself.
Meh. He can do whatever he wants. All it will cost me is $ because, like everyone else, I will forward whatever monstering crap he creates to my lawyer. The thing is, though, I believe mine does want the divorce--he just won't like what he's going to have to pay. In some ways, he was fairly meek about the proposed settlement. Not that he won't pay--more like he can't afford to pay. And honestly, he's had two weeks to get himself an attorney and respond to mine. As far as I know, he hasn't, so this is his own doing. Plus, most of the time mine raises his hackles then backs down when someone puts him in his place. Beneath it all, he's a meek child.
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When we say get out of their way, it's not only for our own protection but to help them progress. This is the issue I see with clingers--when they can't detach from us, how are they supposed to figure out that we aren't the source of their misery?
Not only that, but how can we really learn to break the "fix it" cycle if we are right there, trying to gently nudge them in the right direction? And on that note, if we are hovering above them, gently nudging them down the tunnel or whatever allegory, is there ever going to be a genuine integration of selves?
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You're welcome, Medusa.
When we say get out of their way, it's not only for our own protection but to help them progress. This is the issue I see with clingers--when they can't detach from us, how are they supposed to figure out that we aren't the source of their misery?
I don't know, Medusa, but they do it. RCR husband was a clinger. He come out of MLC. There are others here with clingers, or even with wallowers (the normal way of the MLCer who is almost always in open depression and never leaves) who are seeing progress.
There are people here who have not seen, or exchanged a word, with their MLCer in years, and the MLCer is still inside the tunnel.
In fact, in my case, since I turned my über clinger into a vanisher, but putting space between us and cutting contact, I think I may had prolonged his time in the tunnel. I do not feel bad or guilty about it. I could no longer live, heal, had space, with Mr J clinginess and always wanting to have a piece of me.
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I was thinking about that after I hit post, Anjae. And yet, if I'm remembering correctly, RCR went long periods without contact from him. I saw a timeline somewhere when I first came here (and have never been able to find it again) that so effectively demonstrated his touch & go's.
When I say leave them to it, I mean we need to not try to manipulate the process and just focus on ourselves. Certainly some with clingers are able to do this, but I do think it's got to be a whole lot more difficult.
I don't necessarily disagree that creating a vanisher doesn't prolong the process or perhaps even help them get stuck, but the problem is, we don't know what would have happened if we did something different. We do give them messages of rejection, and that may well contribute to them spinning in the tunnel. But we don't really know, do we? Yours might have become a vanisher all on his own. Mine might have found the gonads to leave all on his own. We pushed them away because it's what we had to do for ourselves.
I've stopped second-guessing what's happened. I can't change it; I can only learn from it.
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If I'm not mistaken, RCR never went much more than weeks, maybe couple of months top, without contact from/with her husband. RCR husband left 8 times "though a few of those were only a few days, most were a few months in duration." from My Story http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/my-story.html
So, they have always been in close contact, even if, at times, it may not had been daily. That is very different than years without contact.
Agree, we need to not try to manipulate the process and just focus on ourselves. Which is what we all end up doing. At first it is difficult, with time we learn it.
I'm fairly certain that if I had not cut contact I would had went insane. ::) As for Mr J, yes, of course he could had become a vanisher on his own. At a point, I think it was 50/50, I was cutting contact, he was getting more distant.
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So, they have always been in close contact, even if, at times, it may not had been daily. That is very different than years without contact.
I'm soon up to aprox 16 months or so of total "silent treatment" from my vanisher. The only thing happening during this time is one indirect thing he maybe wanted me to react to, xh taking out rent from our youngest son living in OUR house (he can't do this since we own the house together) and one direct thing he ordered a credit card from a company (I haven't reacted to anything). Anyway, I think this behavior is sick, I can't find any other word for it. You have known a person for over 20-30 years sometimes and then they vanish, abuse or not abuse, OW or not OW. It's like a 3 year old in a grown persons body, hiding under the bed or something. I know my dad vanished from me 5 years or so and I did not think about it so much as I do now but to vanish completely is some really screwed/controlling/abusing or what ever tactic it is!
If someone knows the psychological reasons behind it, I would like to know!
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If someone knows the psychological reasons behind it, I would like to know!
Read up on depression!
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I was thinking about that after I hit post, Anjae. And yet, if I'm remembering correctly, RCR went long periods without contact from him. I saw a timeline somewhere when I first came here (and have never been able to find it again) that so effectively demonstrated his touch & go's.
I think you may be confused with his in-and-outs versus us not having contact. He moved in and out, but contact continued. Two weeks was probably the longest and that was rare and if we didn't see each other there was the phone or email.
Here's the post with the timeline: The Clinging Boomerang Soap Opera (http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/midlife-crisis-and-infidelity/the-clinging-boomerang-soap-opera/)
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I was the one who started the off-and-on thread, years ago -- it was then pointed out to me that I had a pretty classic boomerang, rather than an off-and-on, who would have contacted once every few months, possibly.
So I'm afraid what I thought was an off-and-on wasn't, what I was seeing was more of the cycling that is described. He would come towards me, then run. This has been repeated in cycles of varying length for many years now.
I've never had a clinger, at least not in the sense that I think RCR defines it as: as one who wants to remain married while having his other life as well. Trouble is, he's never been able to articulate what he wants, or at least it changes with whatever else is going on in his life.
Mind didn't start d proceedings until nearly 5 years in; he also never finished them, although those threats come up now and again.
Mine has opened up at various points in this mess; that gives me some insight, then he runs again and it hurts again.
The pros of this are that you learn better to deal with it all; you learn to respond rather than to react, all that.
The cons are that no matter how hard you work to detach, let go, surrender, you always have something to deal with. Right now it's a combination of monster and more avoiding behaviours, which is very weird. And the odd bit of "normal" mixed in, just to add to the confusion.
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I think every situation, though similar, is so very different. No one knows what truly works or why.
The longest we went without contact, in 5 years, was 2 weeks.
I know, without a shadow of a doubt, that if my H had found someone else my story would have been very different.
I remained in contact for various reasons. He was not abusive and he didn't Monster at me. We pretty much stayed on good terms...even though he never changed his mind about divorcing me. ::)
I remained physical with him. I suppose because there was no rational reason not to. The way I looked at it, and please no 2x4's, was I figured that was one area I knew him best.
I'm not stupid, I know MLCer's don't leave their spouses and find ow's/om's just for sex. It's deeper than that but I saw how I had turned away from him for a few years, probably my own crisis, and figured it was worth a shot to try to right things.
I won't say much more because I still don't know how this will play out, but for now things are good.
I guess sometimes you just have to follow your gut.
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If someone knows the psychological reasons behind it, I would like to know!
Read up on depression!
I have, but it still hard to really understand it when you have not experienced it yourself, isn't it?
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I was thinking about that after I hit post, Anjae. And yet, if I'm remembering correctly, RCR went long periods without contact from him. I saw a timeline somewhere when I first came here (and have never been able to find it again) that so effectively demonstrated his touch & go's.
I think you may be confused with his in-and-outs versus us not having contact. He moved in and out, but contact continued. Two weeks was probably the longest and that was rare and if we didn't see each other there was the phone or email.
Here's the post with the timeline: The Clinging Boomerang Soap Opera (http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/midlife-crisis-and-infidelity/the-clinging-boomerang-soap-opera/)
Thanks for the link, RCR. Funny how that particular visual stuck with me! And yes, I may well be confused. My memory is rubbish, anyway, and I read that very early on. ;)
Since mine moved out at my request, our contact has been about once a month. Most of the time he initiates because he wants something (eg the monster is hungry) although there have been three times since separation that we've had a semblance of normalcy (if one considers chatting with him at his mom's funeral while OW is standing watching normal!). Perhaps he is boomeranging and I don't recognize it.
Part of me doesn't care what type he is since I'm done. But the part that does care is interested because I don't want him to continue to be a thorn for the rest of my life. We have two kids and I'd like for us to be able to be cordial whenever we have to be together but, otherwise, stay out of each other's lives.
I suppose this goes right back to what Anjae said regarding influencing their type. I believe mine had to be shoved from the nest and had to let go of me in order to move through his tunnel. I did my part my making him go. The rest is up to him.
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If someone knows the psychological reasons behind it, I would like to know!
Read up on depression!
I have, but it still hard to really understand it when you have not experienced it yourself, isn't it?
Yes - agreed their is no LOGIC to it, except after you understand it actually their is logic and it works in the way of opposite what you would expect.
And Passiflora - you have never been depressed?
Never had someone die or feel like staying in bed all day?
Never had the energy to do things that you used to love?
Had no appetite - lost weight on the LBS diet?
Yup you probably have experienced it but
like are MLC'ers are in denial about that.
There are 2 types of depression overt and covert, I would guess that the vanishers have
more overt(obvious) depression whereas someone with covert depression
shows high energy replay antics.
More yelling and screaming and carrying about.
Probably more of a clinger than a vanisher.
But that is just a guess on my part.
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I read so much about depression and never fully "got it" and when my H first left I absolutely could not for the life of me wrap my head around how he could not contact me at all as if I didn't exist anymore - Passiflora, you may have already read it, but the book The Depression Fallout by Anne Sheffield is the one that really drove it home for me.
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I think many I us have felt depressed but that doesn't mean we have depression. I know what it is about clinically but like Passiflora I have never experienced it myself. I have felt sad in many instances including when grieving my best friend but the the hopeless, despair associated with depression I can thankfully say I am not familiar with.
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Depression is definitely at the core of it all; trouble is, they won't admit it. As my H is one who has from time to time opened up I get some insight into this -- at least I see that it is there, rather. My H's clingier tendencies come out when things are really awful for him, and that is when he comes toward me -- sometimes directly asking for help, sometimes in other ways. If we happen to be talking at one of those times I can see it -- and he's got as far as practically opening up completely, but then shuts down with a slam.
The last conversation we had actually included depression -- it gave me a chance to say that it wasn't a weakness. He then asked what it was -- an illness? I said a condition. But this was never overtly discussed as applying to him; rather about a close friend of our who killed himself years ago -- IMO the trigger for this whole mess.
But when the conversations take a turn he doesn't like, i.e. that he would have to face himself in some way, they either get shut down with an "I don't want to" (fix anything) or monster comes out, saying that I'm the one causing the trouble.
And when he slams the door down the next step seems to be more running away behaviours. I can't say "MLC antics", really, because it's been so long, but there is definitely a pattern that when things get rough he literally runs away, usually overseas. I think his inner thinking is "there's nothing wrong with me that a divorce/exotic holiday/new woman/new toy won't cure".
So that goes back to the advantages and disadvantages -- when you see this up close there is more opportunity to get hurt (hence the importance of detachment, yes of course), but you do see more of the process -- it isn't pretty.
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I think many I us have felt depressed but that doesn't mean we have depression. I know what it is about clinically but like Passiflora I have never experienced it myself. I have felt sad in many instances including when grieving my best friend but the the hopeless, despair associated with depression I can thankfully say I am not familiar with.
Well I dont think I was ever clinically depressed either however I have been prescribed anti depressants during this mess and at one point following my divorce final, the room started to spin around which I believe was also stress related.
My point is that our bodies have a way of taking care of ourselves and their is nothing wrong with admitting that we may not always be thinking straight.
The real test is whether you can look in the mirror and see yourself for who you really are.
And make the changes you need to make to propel yourself forward.
MLC'ers tend to DENY anything is wrong.
It is always someone elses fault.
We dont want to fall into the same trap.
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Sorry OP, for late reply
And Passiflora - you have never been depressed? Sad, yes, experienced the 5-6 stages of grieving yes.
Never had someone die or feel like staying in bed all day? Someone close died, Yes! Want to stay in bed all day. NO
Never had the energy to do things that you used to love? NO
Had no appetite - lost weight on the LBS diet? Lost appetite, YES, first month after BD. Which is a normal reaction to a abnormal situation
Yup you probably have experienced it but
like are MLC'ers are in denial about that. No, I don't think I'm in denial about it. I think that different people have different coping strategies to stress.
I think, some of us, much since "how" we tackle stress is due to our upbringing and our environment, experience sadness and some mild depression (weight loss for example) but major depression/ psychotic depression/ bipolar is very different, what I have read. The symptoms from major depressive like; hallucinations, delusions, psychosis lack of impulse behavior, suicide etc.
But my main question is still; is "our" mlc'r, having depression "only" (as in male depression signs are what most of us describe here), or do they have a NPD disorder first and a depression on top of that? (cluster B personality types experience more depressions). I think depression comes on 3rd or 4th place over world health issues. Male depression has signs of being "bipolar" but this still don't explain the lying and other pure evil stuff, it might explain "monster". One last thing, people having major depression in quantity is way higher % than what is diagnosed with a cluster B personality.
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But my main question is still; is "our" mlc'r, having depression "only" (as in male depression signs are what most of us describe here), or do they have a NPD disorder first and a depression on top of that? (cluster B personality types experience more depressions).
Simple answer is NO it is not depression only as we have established above you and I became depressed and did not then have any other symptoms or have a crisis.
So depression is part of it, add in some hormonal issues, childhood issues, possibly FOO, enabling partners, midlife issues, and maybe some other factors(transitions) and you have a perfect storm to have a MLC. Forgot to mention empty nest, deaths, illnesses or some other trigger.
I am not sure why being bipolar or depressed does not explain lying as my experience shows that lying comes very naturally to my bipolar mother.
I can only say that since you have never been so depressed that you could not get out of bed,
that some depressed people are that way, and if you translate that into MLC,
you can see why some are vanishers.
They can not even get out of bed, have no energy to do anything so they are like a wounded
animal hiding in a cave trying to repair themselves
Oh and I totally agree that mental illness is totally under reported and diagnosed in the world.
Here are some depression books that I would suggest
I Don't Want To Talk About It: Overcoming the Secret Legacy of Male Depression
by Terrence Real
Unmasking Male Depression by Archibald Hart
The Pain Behind The Mask: Overcoming Masculine Depression by John Lynch,
Christopher T. Kilmarting
My book review
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1965.msg175299#msg175299
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Also there is enlightment to be had via the website The storied mind. They recently [?] had an article on depressed spouses who leave but I'm too lazy to look up the link. :P
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I've also read things on "the storied mind", generally found them pretty good.
Depression shows itself in many ways; I've struggled with it, but have never just stayed in bed all day -- I found that made it worse. But I do know how it can colour everything, make you see just the bad, or at the least amplify the bad. Or make the bad negate the good in something.
It sounds glib; but men in depression, especially those in denial about it, tend to act out -- hence the behaviours that we see. Women have more of a tendency to cry, to "act in". That is a huge generalisation, but can help explain some behaviours.
As to whether it is "just" depression or another clinical disorder; IMO depression and their response to it plays a huge role. For some it may really be a bipolar disorder, but I think that is much less common.
I agree with OP that it's the perfect storm of many things; that is why it is often so hard to pick apart the reasons. If it were just one thing, we reason, we could deal with it....
Lying is an element of depression -- generally because of the shame they feel that they are even depressed or anything else in the first place. That is my own take on it; lying is also another way of expressing anger, which they all seem to feel. And that makes sense if you think that depression is anger turned inward....
That all may not have come out clearly, does any if it make sense?
Again, if we have clingier MLCers we see more of this, which can drive us nuts but also teach us to deal with it better; I'm sure vanishers go through the same thing, we just don't see it, so we can perhaps heal better.
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I read storied mind stuff over and over and have multiple articles saved as reference.
This article and others on storied mind are the only reason I didn't completely fall to pieces in the months after H left:
http://www.storiedmind.com/self-esteem/why-depressed-men-leave-1/