Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Ready2Transform on February 07, 2017, 09:30:38 PM
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Joe Beam has a new audio that really digs deep in describing the three stages of limerent affairs like most of us are experiencing the effects of (not referring to the same limerence that RCR talks about as a stage of MLC). Dr. Beam's overview relies heavily on Dr. Helen Fisher's work on limerence if any of the rest of you have found it in your research.
http://www.marriageradio.com/the-3-phases-of-limerence-joe-beam
If you're questioning, "Why does my spouse love THEM but hate ME?" - listen.
I looked at the other topics and didn't see one that I thought this fit into, but if the mods want to move it, feel free.
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I heard about him last year. His podcast really helped me to get through the aftermath of the divorce. The constant posts on FB and all other social media was just infuriating. But, it made sense. Now, that limerence seems to have run it's course, he's back in the state. She's not with him and he's trying to reconnect with my younger girls. Crazy how it ends.
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It's never any less fascinating how predictable it is. Even when he talks about the ones that marry and stay with the alienators, the way he describes how they stay to 'make it work' makes sense in my case. Glad to hear in this that there's a new study in the works.
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It's never any less fascinating how predictable it is. Even when he talks about the ones that marry and stay with the alienators, the way he describes how they stay to 'make it work' makes sense in my case. Glad to hear in this that there's a new study in the works.
R2T how long does limerance last? In a case like mine is this likely what will end up happening? Are there signs that limerance is ending or is it abrupt?
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According to Joe Beam, it *always* ends (but does not always equate with returning to the marriage). He puts a timeline of anywhere between 3 months and four years for the actual ending of the dopamine "love". One person ends it in the couple before the other, and the other will likely try to pull them back in. I have no clue if yours will be like mine (I would have guessed my xH would have pulled back to the marriage long before now, so I'm a bad judge. ;)). But from an outsider's perspective, the fact that yours is having a child with another woman and he's made no effort to even live with her or make quick work of divorcing you (even though you have proceedings, he sure is dragging it out) - I can't see him making a long term commitment to her other than child support. Just my opinion.
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I still can't understand the difference between limerance and infatuation. Both equal infatuated love.
In the podcast, Joe Beam says Limerance is being madly in love. If so, why not just use madly in love?
Sometimes I think there is a need to complicate, and used terms just for the sake of it.
What I don't think is that all MLCers are madly in love with their alienator. I doubt Mr J was ever madly in love with OW2. With O1, yes.
So, why is he with OW2? Trying to make it work. He threw everything away for OW1, she left him, OW2 come in place, lets make this thing work, because I have nothing else.
Ssince Limerance has mostly likely also happened for LBS & MLCer, and the relationship lasted past it, why couldn't the relationship with the alienator last past Limerance?
Which would mean that, the problem, is not Limerance, since that fades. The problem is that, even afterwards, MLCers tend to stay with their alienator until something breaks the relationship.
And there are far more complicated thing that traps some MLCers than OW/OM, like the addictive lifestyle they chose and the friends they surround themselve with.
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To me, the very descriptions of limerence and infatuation make them virtually synomous. Yes, this feeling will always because that's what happens to feelings. But....just because the feeling goes away, it does NOT mean that the attachment does. Infatuation and limerance can, and do sometimes lead to love. This is a painful reality that we all must accept. Just because we don't want to believe a relationship started like the ones we were dumped as a result of will make it, doesn't mean they won't last. Our exes (spouses) let themselves fall into this state, it wasn't accidental. Maybe it was innocent enough at first, but at some point they (both parties) knew lines were being crossed, but still continued.
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Beyonddone, I think you have a good point. My feeling is that you have to take the big picture and pattern of behavior.
I think that if there is a lot of bizarre behavior then it is likely a limerance/infatuation combined with altered brain chemistry that is unlike the chemistry of a "normal" person in limerance/infatuation.
I think everyone here has been infatuated but there is likely a limit to our behavior, no matter how much we felt like we were walking on sunshine.
R2T yes my MLC-H and his OW do not share a residence although typically they are together at one residence or the other. I think though he would be so ashamed to leave two women in rapid succession.
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So, Joe Beam happent o be a guy that left his wife to be with another woman. Uhhhhh...from what he tells on the Podcast, he had a MLC. It is textbook MLC. If you ask me, he is using Limerance instead of MLC. Or Limerance to explain how MLCers become infatuated.
And, by the way, he says Limerance is love. One kind of love, a short kind of love.
There is hardly any love left between a MLCers and an alienator after the infatuation is gone. Plus, the failure rate for an adulterous relationship is of abour 95%. And of those, most will also not last.
Attachment, yes, I can see that. In a bad way, but yes, MLCer and alienator could remain attached for all thr wrong reasons.
Of course they knew lines were being crossed and carried on. On his letetr to OW1 Mr J says pretty much the same Joe Beam says in the podcast, he put his values aside, he had to cross is values off the list to do it. Mr J knew what he was doing was wrong. He could not stop.
And we have LBS here whose husband is on OW6 or more. No love there, just running from one infatuation to the other.
But MLC is much more than infatution/limerance. It is a bests of its own. Even if, listening to Joe Beam 's stroy, one could be forgived to think he had a MLC. His story is textebook MLC.
Many people have affairs, but do not consider leave and team up with the affair partner. MLCers always seem to go for the affair partner.
MLCers, after a while, this a while can be a few years, become miserable. None of them is happy. If there was love, they would be happy, right? If their lives were good, they would be happy. They are not.
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Fantastic resource - I heard an earlier broadcast on the subject by him - someone out it in my first thread - it really helped so thanks for sharing! I do have a question which maybe no one can answer but how does limerance fit with MLCrs that feel 'nothing' there's many a story where the MLCr actually never felt anything for the OW they just liked how she made them feel (ego based affairs)..... any ideas?
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I do have a question which maybe no one can answer but how does limerance fit with MLCrs that feel 'nothing' there's many a story where the MLCr actually never felt anything for the OW they just liked how she made them feel (ego based affairs)..... any ideas?
Good question. I don't know.
We had a previous discussion on Limerance in one of the articles&links to share threads if anyone wants to check: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3496.20
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Thanks Anjae,
I will definoitely take a look. I guess that its interesting becasue some cases seem to have this limeramce involved where as others have teh feeling of 'nothing' complete numbness. I would have thought (assumed) that these were mutually exclusive and thus either or not both? Or does limerasnce happen becasue of teh numbness as in a 'cutting through' that said it doesnt make sense becasue if an MLCr can say I felt nothing for the OP I just liked how they made me feel then it isnt limerance..... Its almost like 2 extremes.
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Whenever I listen to Joe Beam I find myself wishing he would elaborate more.
For instance, he says his LO went into phase 3 and wanted to end things while he was still in phase 2.
He never explains if he ever actually went into phase 3 himself and decided he no longer felt the same about the LO, or if she simply went into phase 3 and left him. Meaning he never went into phase 3. He was still infatuated and she dumped him and left.
The specifics of that matter to what he says next. He said he didn't just immediately contact his wife and try to reconcile. Why? Because he had so vilified her in his mind, he felt being alone was still a better choice.
Well, it would help to know if he still believed his vilification about his wife because he was in fact still in phase 2 and still too consumed with his lost LO, or if he was in phase 3 yet still believing in his rewritten history of his marriage.
To me that's important. If he was still in phase 2 it means he didn't want to reconcile because he was still in limerence.
If he was in phase 3, that means he didn't want to reconcile because even after limerence ends, the person still believes in the rewritten history they created to deal with their cognitive dissonance at the beginning of limerence. That would be a sad outcome, to tell oneself terrible lies about their spouse and then always believe them.
He also says after his LO left him, he started drinking and living a hedonistic lifestyle until he realized he was miserable. But he doesn't give a timeline. For how long after his LO left did he live this way? Was that covert depression? Was that his way of dealing with still being in phase 2 and having lost his LO and when he finally realized that was no way to live, was it because he had finally reached phase 3?
These are just questions that came up as I listened to this.
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It's something to ponder that I don't know if there are a lot of answers to yet (again, glad to hear in this that a bunch of doctors are entering a new study).
I hear you on the, "Is it just another word for MLC or infatuation?", and here's where I (not being the expert) think it may be a little of both but not the whole salami on either.
When Dr. Dorothy Tennov began her studies in the 1970s and coined the term, it was more philosophical and didn't deal as much with the pathology we're dealing with, so in that way, it WAS just a study of the nature of infatuation. She still faced scrutiny for it and it wasn't until Dr. Helen Fisher took back up with a much more neuro-angle that I think we see the concept we're dealing with now. I have a bit of a soft spot for her work since I found it long before I found this site and the concept of MLC. Particularly, her writings on serotonin imbalance and dopamine suppression that turns "off" love toward a spouse. I don't have the link handy, but for the neuro-studiers, she's a good resource.
But even with Joe Beam, who DOES have an angle with this that's not just academic (he has a program for couples and LBS he wants to sell), it's consistent that limerence in general does not have a target demographic that would put it at just middle age, therefore I don't think it can just replace MLC as a term. None of these doctors go deep into the other areas of life where there will be MLC behaviors (though they do mention, Joe Beam stating the statistic of 85% of the time, that the limerent object will become a distracting obsession that can effect the rest of their lives).
But it gives us insight into the nature of the affair, and I think that has value. Yes, normal and healthy relationships can begin with a sense of "infatuation" - that's the dopamine - but most don't have a habitual aspect. There are people, or maybe something within all of us that's just waiting for the right conditions, that cause a 'tip' into something different. I'm sure we were "in love" with our spouses when we started seeing them, with the butterflies and a bit of distraction from daily life. But rarely can we compare what we experienced with them to what we saw with them and these alienators.
Think about pre-teen girls and pop idols. Two girls may both put the posters on their walls, watch the YouTube videos incessantly, go to the concerts, etc. But for one who is emotionally stable, this is part of the developmental phase of puberty and Justin fades into the background as she develops new relationships. Another may not be so stable and continues this obsession well into adulthood, set on developing an actual relationship with Justin despite the irrationality of it. I have a former friend who did this with an 80s rockstar, and it did not end well when he didn't react the way she imagined he would to her loyalty. She had a string of tragic events in her childhood around the time she developed this "crush" that I think played into developing such deep neural networks for this fantasy escape).
So with limerence, to my interpretation from these sources, it is a more pathological and unhealthy attachment that is one aspect of MLC but does not define the entirety of MLC. It doesn't require the midlife demographic to come into play, and not every relationship a sufferer has will be limerent. But that's just me!
If you want to move this to the articles, I'm cool with that. 8)
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I found the interview with Joe's wife Alice, Nassau, and if memory serves she answers up some of that stuff: http://www.marriageradio.com/why-she-took-him-back
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R2T, you rock!!
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Nah, I'm just a nerd with too many bookmarks. ;)
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Since Joe Beam only seems to adress couples and is in for marital reconciliation, I think, at least on his case, we can exclude teenagers and anyone that is not married/in a commited relationship. And he talks about people who left their marriage because they were infatuated with another person. Again, in his case, we can excluide anyone who has not left their spouse for another relationship.
His talk is the one of a former MLCer.
Still, regardless of who we are reading/listening about limerance, limerance and infatuation end up being the same thing, be it teenage girls in love with a pop idol or an MLCer "in love" with their alienator.
This could also fit infatuation. Or, at least, infatuation for some people. At a point in our lives, I think we have all been there. Be it with a real person, a pop icon, a movie or a sports star.
Limerance/infatuation, do not define the whole of MLC, but seem to play a good part in it. At least at first. Afterwards, who knows what keeps MLCer and alienator together for all those long years.
We don't know much about Joe Beam story. Did he cause financial damage to his wife? Did he monster at her? We really don't know that much. We know he become infatuated with another woman, spend three years apart from his wife, then she took him back. Three years? How many of us which our spouse crisis was done in three years? Pretty much all of us (aside from the lucky few whose spouse come back up to three years). He also says in these second link that he was married to his wife for 15 years before he left, and has been married for 28 years since they got back together. They had divorced and remarried.
I think Larry Billota does something similar with his timelines for how long the MLCers crisis is supposed to last. They are too short.
What we all would want is to know how to solve this mess. But, aside from let it run its course, no one knows.
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Thanks R2T,
I was wondering why the hell she took him back. Dr. Paul Hegstrom's wife Judy took him back as well. www.lifeskillsintl.org I've always wanted to know what was the catalyst that made these women give these MLCer's a second chance. I really don't think that there's anything that my XH could do to make me change my mind. Then again, he's still not fully cooked. And he's really trying to force a relationship with my younger 2.
The AD is definitely out of the picture and trying to continue to get his attention. He's also very desperate to get my younger 2 to visit with him on the weekends. My YD had a meltdown last night. She's really stressed out about seeing her dad again. I often wondered when they were no longer in limerence did they remember the kids. Crazy, but Joe Beam has really redeemed himself.
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I do have a question which maybe no one can answer but how does limerance fit with MLCrs that feel 'nothing' there's many a story where the MLCr actually never felt anything for the OW they just liked how she made them feel (ego based affairs)..... any ideas?
It's a one way love. The OW does love them and at some level they know that and it makes them feel important or needed or whatever maybe. But they don't love her back. They are using her for something other than giving love but she actually loves them. They are receiving her love but they aren't giving it back. Does that make sense?
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When Air first posted the link to joe beam's original limerence podcast link, I listened to it a few times and found it very thought provoking.
At the time I was still seeing my therapist (as some of you know she was a neuroscientist of 30 years standing) and I talked to her about limerence.
She said it was an extreme version of infatuation which some people may experience in their lives, but wasn't main stream. She said whereas most of us have been infatuated at some points of our lives and most relationships start with infatuation, limerence is much more intense feeling and leads to people being completely consumed by the AP and making some crazy decisions, there are similarities to MLC because the limerent person is driven by their need to be with "their love", but there are differences, the is no depression for example.
She felt in my situation H was not limerent but was infatuated and in MLC, because of the way he had described the OW, because of his displayed anhedonia the constant working and withdrawl prior to the affair discovery. However, she felt that my H's OW could be a limerent addict, because of her relationship history.
She explained some people can literally be addicted to the high from the dopamine rush and go from one limerent relationship to another and as Joe Beam explained if the person is unobtainable then this just drives the infatuation. My therapist said stalking behaviour can be a type of limerence.
So what would drive my H's OW's limerence is him still being married and once he divorced me and married her she would lose interest, as she had with her last husband, made sense to me.
Obviously none of this was proven and is only based on what I had presented to her about OW and H.
As for them being numb and therefore not being able to feel infatuated the two things are mutally exclusive IMO.
They feel numb therefore they cannot feel any actual emotion, but they can have a high because a high is a brain chemical, its not a 'feeling' connected to an emotion.
So IMO, if they are not "feeling" then the high of the infatuation, is mistaken by the MLC'er as a 'feeling' and because they are numb the high of that infatuation is so intense it can mimic the extreme high of someone who is limerent. If that makes sense
From what I have listened to on the Jim Beam podcast (I have only listened to the one so far and that's the original one air posted some months back) it is possible that he as limerent because it can happen, but its also possible he did have a MLC.
Maybe its more palatable to him to believe it was limerence.
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Interesting stuff. I did appreciate his discussion of the three stages but do feel he could have gone deeper into the third. What did he do to try and pull the OW back, for example? He talked a lot but what's very specific.
That said, I did appreciate that he finally got around to using the word "selfish" to describe this unhealthy "love". And I also was pretty interested in the crystallization process.
I think the greater question remains for many of us, though, is if our MLCer did become limerant. Logically it aligns in many ways with MLC, yes, but if noting elsehe timelines are, in my opinion, way off. There are just too many of us who have been at this waaaayyyyyyyy to long and have an MLCer whose been in replay for many years. Perhaps the statistics are skewed because the study subjects are relatively normal people, not MLCers!
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So this is one of the reasons I'm done. The chances my SBXH will ever be the man I married is so minimal I can't risk living my life as though he will recover even after affair ends. He is a complete train wreck I want no part of. I pity him but do not miss or desire him. This podcast reaffirmed how insane and self-centered the affair down is. But I knew all that. I knew all along SBXH needed OW to validate him at the cost of our marriage, me, his family, and kids. I don't want to be OW's sloppy seconds. I don't see how he'll ever come out of this affair down a good man.
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If, like 1trouble therapis, that was a neuroscientist for 30 yearsS, Limerance does not include depression, than MLCers cannot be/have Limerance. MLCers are depressed.
... but if noting elsehe timelines are, in my opinion, way off. There are just too many of us who have been at this waaaayyyyyyyy to long and have an MLCer whose been in replay for many years. Perhaps the statistics are skewed because the study subjects are relatively normal people, not MLCers!
Yes, maybe the statistics are skewed because the subjects were not having a MLC. The timelines do not match HS reality. Nor my real life reality, of friends and acquaintances that have had/are having MLC.
Billota does not talk about Limerance (not that I know of), he talks about MLC. From what I have seen written here on the board, from people who took Billota's tests, his timelines are also way below our reality.
And yet, early on, I think RCR had MLC at 2 years, max 5 (or even less). She had adjusted it because of what she saw and read on HS.
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I agree with 1trouble. It makes perfect sense to me from alll I've read. Since the MLCer is numb inside and can't feel any emotions, then they confuse the 'chemical high' as a feeling or an emotion or love.
Thanks 1trouble.
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I do have a question which maybe no one can answer but how does limerance fit with MLCrs that feel 'nothing' there's many a story where the MLCr actually never felt anything for the OW they just liked how she made them feel (ego based affairs)..... any ideas?
It's a one way love. The OW does love them and at some level they know that and it makes them feel important or needed or whatever maybe. But they don't love her back. They are using her for something other than giving love but she actually loves them. They are receiving her love but they aren't giving it back. Does that make sense?
Yes makes sense. I agree. I mean limerance can happen to anyone - it's different when MLC is involved. May be a similar addiction : process but it's going to be different when you've got crazy hormones/depression/issues going on with an MLCr. I think what's interesting is the whole 'shadow self' affair - the link further back in this thread is quite a good one and has lots of articles. Now I understand why these MLCrs go for seemingly totally different affair partners. This is what my IC said to me also - that H has gone for a person that reflects the issues he's facing. That and the fact it was easy pickings as he worked with her (zero effort required for his lazy ar**)...
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I listened to the interview with his wife last night. Sounds like his LO lost interest in him not very long after he left his family for her. He said they never lived together and she left him within a year of his leaving his wife, so their total time together was about 2 years and then he had two more years on his own before he called his wife and asked to reconcile.
I agree with 1t that limerence has some differences from infatuation, though they are very, very similar.
I hadn't heard before though that there is no depression involved in limerence. I had actually read that people suffering from depression are more prone to limerence.
Maybe people in MLC are more prone to limerence as well. From what I've read, people with a low sense of self-worth are more prone to limerence.
And MLC definitely seems to make people susceptible to looking to another person to make them whole or make their decisions because their brains are too full of chaos. When you are giving that much power over to another person, I suppose it would make sense that you would put that person on such a pedestal in order to justify giving them so much power over you.
Anyway, much of what he said on the 3 phases podcast only reinforces all the advice given here. Any barrier to the relationship will only serve to strengthen it, so it's best to just step back and let it play out. There's no way to know what will happen, but no good can come from interfering in any way.
It really reinforced a lot of what we all know we have to do. We have NO say in any of this. Even in Joe Beam's case, it all hinged on the fact that his LO ended the relationship. If she hadn't, there's no way to say if he would have eventually ended it. But it's clear he was still very much wanting the relationship when she ended it.
He said he tried to pull her back in the same ways we've read about the alienator: "Look what I gave up for you..." And when he did that, his LO just pulled away more.
Just like in the podcast with his wife, where at the very end she talked about how she did the begging and pleading at first. And he still left and divorced her. Her begging and pleading didn't make him stop and think. He was hellbent on going to the OW and he did. Nothing she would have said or done would have stopped him.
He also said how he definitely took notice when his wife went on with her life after he left, taking care of herself emotionally and spiritually and showing herself to be a strong and capable woman who would be fine without him. But he still took 2 years on his own before he wanted to reconcile.
Another thing he clarified a little that I found helpful was the idea that a person doesn't leave what they have unless they perceive that what they're going to is "better."
That doesn't mean that in order for the MLCer to want to reconcile, the LBS has to be "better" than what he has meaning the LBS has more money, is more attractive, has a better job, has a more exciting lifestyle, etc.
"Better" just means better in the MLCer's perception, which will be different for everyone.
The MLCer left the LBS because they perceived where they were going was "better" and maybe that meant the MLCer left to go live with a hot mess alienator in a shack with no heat. But in their skewed perception at the time, that was "better."
Joe Beam left his wife and kids for "better," moving several hours away to be in a relationship with his LO. After his LO left him, he said he lived an "ungodly" life of drinking and living like a single man, and for 2 more years he felt that was "better." He says one day after two years of that, he realized he didn't want to live that way anymore. He never actually says any specific thing caused him to start feeling that reconciling with his wife would be "better," but it seems that his perception changed and he began to miss what he had.
We don't know what "better" will be to make them want to look back towards us. We could change a million things and have a life that makes us appear fabulous and others look at us and think we have it all, but our MLCer still might not want to come back. So all we can do is what we consider better for us, what we want for us, and if they want to join us one day, they will let us know and we can then decide if we are open to letting them back in.
Just my thoughts after listening to the two podcasts. Thanks again for sharing, R2T!!
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I just want to clear something up from my previous post regarding the conversation I had with my therapist.
I think I gave the wrong impression in my post, I did not mean limerent people cannot be depressed.
I meant that it can happen to anyone and doesn't go hand in hand with depression like MLC does.
Though it can cause depression when someone comes out of it.
My therapist said its more like obsessive love that's why she mentioned stalkers and personality disorders
but she said its possible for anyone to have a limerent experience.
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1trouble thank you for that post! That definitely clarifies it and I'm glad to have the professional perspective.
We don't know what "better" will be to make them want to look back towards us. We could change a million things and have a life that makes us appear fabulous and others look at us and think we have it all, but our MLCer still might not want to come back. So all we can do is what we consider better for us, what we want for us, and if they want to join us one day, they will let us know and we can then decide if we are open to letting them back in.
Bears repeating. :)
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Thanks for clarifying, 1trouble.
I still doubt MLCers spend years on end in Limerance/Infatuated with the alienator. They don't.
Mr J's big infatuation with OW1 lasted 16 months in the open. He does not stand, nor give a f*** abou OW2 (his own words). No limerance left between those two. I think there was some infatuation beitween Mr and OW2until mid 2009. Then, it was gone. They still moved in together and are still living together. He is more and more miserable, depresesed, drunk and angry. But, hey, it must be happiness. ::)
"Better" always makes me laugh. Yeah, your affair partner, who is cheating along with you, is "better". ::) MLcers and non-MLC people who think the affair partner is "better" are on the depths of delusion.
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Anjae
I agree
Firstly I don't think people in MLC are limerent.....they are two distinct things
AND
infatuation and limerence only lasts 2-3 years, as I don't believe, from conversations I had with my therapist and what I have read about cocaine and infatuation chemicals that the brain is could cope with any long term sustainable high
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Soo, let me jump into this conversation with great interest. I will say up front that I have the worst migraine ever and have not read thru everything with total focus ( but I will ) . I want to quickly share what my husband did/ said when I made him listen to Joe Beams "why Your Spouse Loves Another etc etc ": Here is his reaction:
1. That is all firetrucking bullsh$t... ! ( very agitated.. surprised me )
2. NEVER felt "limerance ".. never addicted feeling
3 . Over and over ... I felt NOTHING , ZERO, BLANK, NOTHING REGISTERRED, CARED ABOUT ZILCH , COULD NOT THINK , ZERO FORTHOUGHT OR ZERO-AFTER THOUGHT ...
4. if I give him anything to read or listen to about affairs ( he always listens or reads ) .. he will say " is this an ordinary typical affair or a MLC affair "... because they are 2 entirely different things to me " ( and his therapist )
5. his " affair" lasted 9 months ... and he was out of town 60 % of the time . So, as hard as it is to admit, he did not see her a lot , and did not move in with her . However , many weekends spent "together "
6. He says " I understand what happened to me ( 3 years in therapy ) and I did not have your typical affair ... no matter what you say Barbiedoll!. And I am not going to "tell you what YOU want to hear because of something you read ". I had a complete and total breakdown .. total emotional, mental , physchological breakdown from crap and "programming " from my childhood . I am NOT your " typical firetrucking CHEATER ! ( gets highly worked up )
Lost my train of thought ... coming back to read this later ..
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Hi 1trouble,
Firstly I don't think people in MLC are limerent.....they are two distinct things
I also think they are two different things.
AND
infatuation and limerence only lasts 2-3 years, as I don't believe, from conversations I had with my therapist and what I have read about cocaine and infatuation chemicals that the brain is could cope with any long term sustainable high
Yes, for Limerance/Infatuation only lasting 2-3 years. As for the brain not being able to sustain a long term high, I don't know.
Mr J and other very high energy MLCers keep looking for new things to provide them with a high. And they have been at it for many, many years (in Mr J's case more than 10 years),
It always amazes me how he manages to sustain his many MLCer high producers. For him, it is always getting into a new djing or similar project. He is always running around Europe, always finding new mates to partake in his MLC activities.
He does not rest, he barely sleeps. It is high, high, high, run, run, run. I get exhausted of write about him and his activities, he does not seem to suffer their consequences.
Well, of course he looks terrible, but he is still standing, and still diving into a new MLC project. His brain has been high for over a decade.
What do you think sustains such lifestyle and does the brain (and body) manage? At a point, logic would say that brain and body cannot cope with such effort. And, yet, here he still is. And Mr J is not the only MLCer who manages it.
Thank you for chime in, Barbie. Very interesting.
I want to quickly share what my husband did/ said when I made him listen to Joe Beams "why Your Spouse Loves Another etc etc ": Here is his reaction:
1. That is all firetrucking bullsh$t... ! ( very agitated.. surprised me )
Somehow, I happen to agree with your husband.
4. if I give him anything to read or listen to about affairs ( he always listens or reads ) .. he will say " is this an ordinary typical affair or a MLC affair "... because they are 2 entirely different things to me " ( and his therapist )
So are they to me. MLC affairs and typical affairs could not be more different.
Hope your migraine improves and you can came back and share/debate more with us.
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Just an after thought ... hmmmm
He has also said, she made him "FEEL" ( see my problem already ), " admired, desired, accepted, validated, appreciated, respected ( puek ) and he "helped her " ( White Knight ... although he cannot remember doing anything for her )
So, how is that "not feeling anything ". Now that is a good question right there . I shall be asking .
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I think the answers lies in "she made him feel". MLCers are dead inside. OW/OM will make them "feel" = have a high on their low = raise some chemical in their brain.
But it is something that just picks up from inside the depression. Not sure if I am making sense, but in Mr J's letters to OW1 he used those same words. When I read them, all I could see was a very deoresed and sleep deprived man getting his fix.
MLCers tend to be very insecure and OW/OM, MLC friends, etc, provides them with validation. MLCers feel empty, OW/OM, as well as MLC activities, seem to feel the void. It is all false, the MLCer remains as empty, sad and depressed as ever.
Will be looking forward to what your husband has to say about the matter. It is always interesting and good to know what a former MLCer has to say.
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Barbie - nail on the head! I think MLC affairs are very different hence my questions about it. I don't doubt there are chemicals involved - there are chemicals involved in depression. But it's all about the numbness and the wanting to feel something. These affair partner make them feel something. And that's likely to address whatever it is inside they are lacking. My IC explained it and it makes sense. Someone who is feeling flat or numb inside will push to feel something in any way they can / my h developed a gym addiction and uses cocaine along with increased drinking and then this OW. He was desperate to escape the numbness and the ow totally fed his ego. So very different to a normal 'limerant' affair. My H can't even say ow's name he refers to her as 'that girl' and try's to distance himself from her in conversation it's really weird. He's almost denying it to himself yet he's blatantly with her and can only sheepishly admit that.... Barbie it's so like your H... I do believe however that ow IS limerant I suspect that many are.....
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Sparklestar, I tried to find your thread but couldn't find it. I am just curious, was your H always an addict/alcoholic? Or, did he start the cocaine at MLC? My STBX has a history of crack addiction but when we meet and the duration of our marriage he was clean and did recovery 12 steps. STBX is dramatically thin and I am convinced using but no one believes me. Others only comment how bad and sickly he looks. STBX used crack the entire time he was with OW 10 years ago. She's supposedly been clean 10 years. It just infuriates me STBX won't admit using and others are cosigning his lies. OW was definitely a drug for him and probably still is.
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I think the answers lies in "she made him feel". MLCers are dead inside. OW/OM will make them "feel" = have a high on their low = raise some chemical in their brain.
I won't even go so far as to say it is a "high" but they want the feeling coming from the OW/OM. They don't return the feeling though. It is a one way street.
They may be dead to us in their feelings too now, but inside them somewhere they love us, love going in the direction from them to us, concern for us, caring about us. They aren't going to express it in the same way they used to, but at least in my case I see glimmers of it occasionally, where it is very clear there are no feelings for OW but there are for me.
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[I won't even go so far as to say it is a "high" but they want the feeling coming from the OW/OM. They don't return the feeling though. It is a one way street.
Actually Changing I disagree with this, this maybe your experience but it is not mine and its not what I have seen in a lot of the stories I have read.
Its well documented that my H had a serious coke problem years ago and when he started getting involved with the OW (which I didn't know about at the time), I thought he was back on coke because the way he was behaving was exactly the same.
He was hyper, not eating, not sleeping, manic sometimes even, his eyes were darting all over the place and he was high....that's why I coined the phrase OW was cocaine with a pulse.
Because in the beginning she was certainly giving him the same high.
Unlike some my H never articulated any sort of feelings for her, he never said he loved her and even when he left to go to her he called her 'some soppy cow from work'
but still said he 'had to go' because there was a pull toward her, which is similar to how coke was to him a long time ago....
He didn't want the 'feeling' he needed the 'high' and the reason he needed the 'high' was without it he was completely dead inside.
He told my sister the OW 'makes him feel good' that's about the only thing he has ever said about her..
OW has BP and if you know anything about the seduction of these types the relationship is all drama and they absolutely idealise, nothing is too much trouble and they do everything for the their AP's in the beginning and then when they think the AP is hooked the power game changes to everything being about them and when its not they 'withdraw' the attention, but to my H (who is also a people pleaser) he needed that attention so he would do anything to get the high back and her attention (at least in the beginning) and so in my case within months of leaving, he had got a mortgage with her, got covered in tattoos of her name, stopped paying me any money or contacting me and his family and had started divorce ....
However, as RCR writes things change over time and last time he mentioned her (in November) he said 'I don't care about "that girl" and she doesn't care about me" but for now he is still there, though he is making more regular contact with me and when I saw him 2 weeks ago, he started to offer to do things round the house..
They never go out anywhere, he still works very very long hours and has been since before he left. She has no friends, doesnt even see her ow children. H earns the money she spends it (or badges it away from him). On the rare occasions he does mention her, he says they have nothing in common, he hates the things she watches on TV, has no respect of interest in her and has told me throughout this he loves me but he still needs to be there for now anyway
So I don't believe its a one way street for these relationships and I definitely know its NOT love of any kind because they are not capable of feeling anything, but the AP has given them some sort of chemical boost or high which for a little while they (the MLC'er) see as the answer to everything and their numbness
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My husband did for a brief time seem to be seeking a high. a very brief time, but it wasn't his motivation from the beginning nor is it his motivation now. What he is seeking, he hasn't gotten yet and may never get it from her, in which case he will dump her and she even knows that. I am almost 100% certain that is true. Like your husband, I know he loves me and that our relationship is solid in the long run.
However, his feelings about her are exactly as you describe your husband's but he has to be there now too. I don't see that due to a high though. For my husband I think it was because he was desperate, he needed SOMEONE and thought NO ONE would be interested, but she was willing but she had her conditions, one of which was for him to keep a distance from me. His lack of self-worth as a partner allowed her to manipulate him in that regard as it was her or no one in his mind.
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I shared my story as I felt many didn't have the first hand knowledge of what is going on w/ their MLCer and OW from his perspective.
With my H there was no actual OW yet an object he felt/feels these feelings for. So it appears that in MLC, it doesn't even have to be a real person they have this addiction for.
He told me himself a few times that he was 'addicted' or explained to me he had an 'addictive personality'.
From reading I see the MLCer's emotions are numb, so the 'OW' love is not real. It never really made sense to me, how he could feel something with ''OW' and not for me any longer.
I am not sure about 'limerance' yet I see him chasing something like a 'high' from a drug. When I asked him what he thinks, that he is confusing that feeling with love because of a chemical in his brain. That he is addicted to the 'high' it's producing.
It appears he agrees with me, yet went back it anyway. Addiction can be very hard to beat.
People can call it what they want yet it's real, as far as my H situation.
Anjae, my H is like yours in that he just doesn't ever rest. His depression keeps him awake.
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1trouble, your H could be my STBX's twin. I have been convinced he's using but the way you describe it all now I'm not all that sure. I do know STBX is seriously stressed out and broken. He never told me he loved OW or she was a soul mate or anything. But, he may have been sparing further hurt. I think in his crazy MLC mind he believes they were supposed to reunite and spend their lives together. However, he's not telling all our friends he's madly in love or anything. He might as well be using crack because his life and looks are that of a crackhead. Since BD he has made sure I'm ok financially and didn't completely abandon our S5. In fact, he gave me $150 today for final D filing. I thought he'd stall but he seems like he's doing it to make me happy. God forbid he admit he still loves or cares for me.
I miss the H I fell in love with but there's no love lost with this version of him. It's just amazing these OW even want to be with these men. They are truly broken and addicted themselves.
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Sparklestar, I tried to find your thread but couldn't find it. I am just curious, was your H always an addict/alcoholic? Or, did he start the cocaine at MLC? My STBX has a history of crack addiction but when we meet and the duration of our marriage he was clean and did recovery 12 steps. STBX is dramatically thin and I am convinced using but no one believes me. Others only comment how bad and sickly he looks. STBX used crack the entire time he was with OW 10 years ago. She's supposedly been clean 10 years. It just infuriates me STBX won't admit using and others are cosigning his lies. OW was definitely a drug for him and probably still is.
Hi More,
No serious addiction to coke in teh past - he used it now and again when we first met then not for years and years to my knowledge its only in teh last year or so - I found out about a month before BD but didnt realise teh extent only after BD did more come out - he isnt addicted I dont think but was using it more. He was also always at teh gym so gym addiction BUT that is where his dealer was so could be that? He definitely aged and looked very tired very quickly over teh last year - you can really see it in pics. So I dont know if drugs caused MLC or MLC caused drug pull?
Interestingly the chemicals in 'limerance' (Dopamine) are exactly the same as a cocaine high - same process / pathway. So there is definitley a connection between the 'high'
1Trouble - interesting your H refers to the OW as 'that girl' mine does too. He is actually quite disparaging about her at times, neither 1 or anyone else have never heard anything remotely close to 'its love'
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Interestingly the chemicals in 'limerance' (Dopamine) are exactly the same as a cocaine high - same process / pathway. So there is definitley a connection between the 'high'
Infatuation works the same way on the brain as limerence, as I have said before I don't think MLC'ers are limerent, they are infatuated IMO.
Its my belief (certainly in my case - cant speak for others) that my H, (who showed clear signs of what I now know to be Anhedonia before he left) was very depressed and so the infatuation 'high' would have been more intense than it would be in someone who was infatuated and not depressed and so similar to the extremes of limerence.
My therapist felt MLC was the same as post natal depression, (its a depression based chemical imbalance )
And interestingly there has been a few people on here who have had post natal depression and done similar things to those in MLC, Sewing is one that comes to mind.
My therapist also said because the amygdala (our emotional centre) is involved its impossible for someone in MLC to build any emotional connection to the AP, it really is all about brain chemicals. Some MLC'ers may articulate their 'high' to love but really the AP has made them "feel" something when they have felt numb for a very long time, so they think because their spouse cant make them feel anything and the AP has, its "lurve", at least some do.
My H has always realised its not, but that hasn't stopped him taking us to the brink of D to placate the OW.
And actually I think the reason my H knew it wasn't love is because of his previous drug use. On some level he knew the difference between love and a high.
As I have mentioned before, in previous posts, LettingGo (a previous LBS with a great understanding of all this $hite) had a theory that MLC'ers with previous addiction problems (drinking, drugs, gambling etc.) were more susceptible to the AP high and were more likely to go for the nuttier AP type (BPD) too because there is far more drama and high and low extremes.....and that's certainly borne out in my case and some of the stories I've come across.
My H's OW is a total nutjob and I really think in the beginning it was the danger of being involved with someone who really didn't give a fig about anyone or anything that was so exciting to my H......note I said in the beginning because over time I saw him being more and more scared of her reactions and now I think he is starting to feels trapped and wondering what the hell he has done and is doing, but that's for him to sort out.
Someone put this link on my thread in Nov 2015, at the time I never looked at it but I did some time later and found it a very powerful way of describing just what depression feels like.
Here is the link, its a blog written by someone who experiences depression and she has made this animation to describe how she felt
http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/depression-part-two.html
This is just one article which along with what I have researched, my experience and knowledge of cocaine, the help from my therapist and the wealth of information on here which made me realise there is nothing I can do to help my H, this has to play out, the chemical imbalance, OW hold etc. will start to wane. This article helped me have compassion and empathy. I know H will come to me when he's ready (as he did when he finally realised he would kill himself if he carried on taking coke years ago).
OW was a lifejacket to H, she made him 'feel' ......but over time the relationship needs more and more drama and just like coke, no matter how much you take, the highs are less and the come downs happen quicker and last longer.
So now getting back to the thread subject (sorry ready) :-[
I listened to some of Joe Beams broadcast (not all yet) and the bit I heard does seem very similar to the last broadcast and there are some marked similarities to MLC in what he says in this broadcast and the last one.
I was very interested in the statistics he gave for the reasons he sees people on his marriage courses and the high statistic he gave for limerence.
I was surprised there was no mention of MLC though, so I went on his site and did a search for the term midlife and crisis and there is nothing on his marriage site about this which seems a bit odd.
I have my theory (just based on what I've heard from him) that those stats he gives for limerence causing marriage problems may also include MLC too.
Maybe he had a midlife crisis but for some reason its more palatable to him to think it was limerence, this could explain why he didn't go back to his wife for 2 years after limerence ended.
I would have thought, as his affair partner ended the affair it may have meant for a while he would have pined after her BUT I would have thought the limerent brain chemicals would have subsided within a few months.
And I just find it strange, someone with his knowledge and extensive research doesn't talk about midlife crisis as much as he talks about limerence.
or maybe someone who has listened to more of his broadcasts can tell me differently, as I said I have only listened to a few.
I do find there are some interesting similarities between MLC and limerence.
When Air put the previous link on here last year I typed out the transcript and found Joe Beams description of how people bond in a limerent relationship quite interesting as well as his description of cognitive dissonance which helped me really understand that concept.
I also came across another article on limerence a while back which I have posted below
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For reasons we don't yet fully understand, not everyone experiences limerence. People who do may experience it only once and then move onto a healthy relationship, or may fall into a lifelong pattern of obsessive relationships. Like drug addicts, some chase that lovesick feeling at the expense of their careers, families and health. Those who cannot let go of the intensity and euphoria of romantic love may be struggling with relationship, romance or love addiction. Behaviors may become dangerous, such as stalking or unwanted contact, and require outpatient or residential love addiction treatment, professional counseling and/or 12-step work.
Predictably, limerence shares little in common with the stable and solid kind of love that fortifies healthy long-term relationships. Limerent beginnings certainly can morph into sustainable partnerships, but often they beget heartbreak.
Unlike love, limerence is not a choice. It ambushes us. The choice lies in whether we act on it, and how. Either we allow limerence to derail our goals and betray our relationships, or else we use it as an opportunity to re-evaluate our priorities and initiate positive changes.
Perhaps there are 2 parts to the question as to why do we get limerence - why are we attracted to certain people and then why do some of us get stuck in an obsessive loop?
As for the first part- what drives attraction?
• Its a biological drive to reproduce
• We are replaying relationships from our early lives where we were wounded, hoping we get a better outcome this time around
• We are seeking validation and love
• A bunch of other stuff that drives attractive - facial features, voice, smell, pheromones, gait and all the unconscious stuff we are just not aware of
As for why do we get stuck in limerence, again its multifactorial:
• Limerents have significant early life trauma that sets us up with behaviors that are limerent sensitising such as low self esteem, obsessive behaviour, addictive tendencies, codependency, love addiction, etc
• We go through a life crisis that makes us vulnerable and drives us to seek external validation
• Mid-life transitions / crisis is a big driver for some of us
• We hook into an avoidant personality of an LO - this drives the push -pull relationship that sends us bat$h!te crazy with uncertainty and is the rocket fuel for limerence
• Our LO's are high on the narc scale so they use us as narcissistic supply - we experience behaviours are likely similar to the environments we grew up in and so feel familiar and comfortable, even though they are toxic and soul destroying
• Maybe we have structural abnormalities in our brains that predisposes us to limerence?
• Other yet to be discovered factors - the reality is we don't know diddly squat as to why do some of us experience limerence.
The therapeutic community is ignorant to limerence, 99% have never heard of it and most just write it off as a crush. LIMERENCE IS NOT A CRUSH. Until there is a wider acceptance of the impact and number of people that are impacted, little progress will be made.
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Thanks for the transcript 1T, 'Limerance' makes more sense to me now.
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Wow 1t, that animated article that person sent you was the BEST thing I've every read to explain how a person in a depression feels. I think it may help a lot of people dealing with a depressed person. too.
You just can't "cheer" them out of it.
Thank you so much for posting that. :)
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1T - My H had symptoms of Anhedonia too. In fact when I first caught him out with the texts to OW he actually said he was just trying to 'feel something' then in a tearful heap he went on to say how he just felt nothing all the time, he didn't feel anything for his parents and he was 'acting' everyday. He said he didn't feel like he should etc etc. He had been using cocaine for quite sometime then though I would say recreationally but that's enough for anhedonia to have manifested.... a real mix of depression and possibly anhedonia and behaviours trying to 'feel something' v sad. Although he tried to cover up OW and isn't showing her of at all, he claims he isn't doing much drugs (totally played it down) and almost denies / dismisses the obvious signs of depression that I saw. I think that's classic running/escape and avoid behaviour because he couldn't stand facing it.....