Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Not Applicable on February 12, 2017, 08:14:32 AM
-
First off, I know we can't fix our MLCers and that isn't what I am trying to do. I know they have to get through this on their own.
However, ever since about two weeks ago when my husband said, "If my feelings came back, I would wish I was dead" I have been having a nagging feeling in my mind. I've done a lot of reading about some of the strange symptoms he is having and while they are common in MLC they are also signs of depression. My husband told me he isn't depressed when i suggested it to him, but he also couldn't come up with another word to describe what it is he is feeling. I think he is thinking more about depression as sadness and what he has is more a numbness. In any case, he isn't happy and that is clear.
I'd never forgive myself if he were to become suicidal and I hadn't said anything to him. I'd like to have a conversation with him about his symptoms (not the cause or our situation), some of which he probably doesn't even realize he has like the memory issues, and how they can be related to depression (not MLC as he doesn't like hearing that) and just let him know that if he ever feels the need or feels he could benefit from seeing a psychiatrist or getting treatment I will support him and stand by him. I do believe he was treated for depression at one point when he was in his first or second year in college. I don't know a lot of details but i remember him saying to me something about it in the first year of our marriage. I seem to remember him telling me he wanted to run away from the university and thought about throwing his books under a train or something. He is a doctor himself so i would approach it from a clinical perspective to make it more palatable.
I'm just wondering if anyone ever attempted something like this with their MLCer. I don't want to pressure him to go to a psychiatrist at this point but just to let him know if at any time he wants to that I will support him in that. They say MLC gets worse before it gets better and there is the depression phase coming up at some point and I would rather do something proactive at this point if I can to provide him with a cushion to fall on if he needs it when that time comes. Not meaning I am the cushion but the cushion being feeling it is ok to seek help if he needs it.
-
Changing,
I doubt saying anything to him will make a difference.
He knows you love him and he knows you support him, but by telling him IF he is depressed you will support him only is saying you feel there is something wrong with him that he can fix.
Just my opinion.
I think being consistent is the best approach. Let him know, which I'm sure you do, that it is ok for him to talk to you about anything and you're not going to get angry or upset.
He will trust you more and more the more consistent you are. He will be convinced he can come to you for anything and feel comfortable doing it.
I just don't know how you can approach him about depression without it seeming like you think he is depressed. Unless you have some way of doing it, in which it seems like his idea. ?? Most men feel they are weak if their admit depression. Not manly. ::)
-
I have been told that the best way to handle this is to get someone that the MLCer trusts who is not the spouse to approach this topic.
I actually wish I had asked some trusted family members to do this with my MLC-H last year. I feel that, handled well, it is the loving thing to do, even if the MLCer may not be receptive.
I was also told that a way to handle is to address the feeling or symptom without diagnosing and ideally through gentle questions.
I struggle with this myself as my MLC-H has recently acquired a bunch of guns. He too has not hit depression after intense high-energy manic phase.
-
When my h and i were dating , i was pregnant, that when he was around the age 17-19 he went through a period of depression. He said it had gotton to the point where his grandmother was going to take him to the hospital. He dodnt go into a lot of detail about that time and i didnt press the issue but he said he snapped out of it. I think he daid it lasted about 6 months. My h also mentioned quite a few times after bd that he was depressed. I thought if i was there for him ot would help. Obviously it didnt. I wish i would have done things different. He also told me in 2015 that he often wondered what wad wrong with him. I told him he was having a mlc and to do some reading on it. He told me that he thinks he was having one when he first left but not anymore. My h is now a vanisher. We hardly talk. I doubt that he would even open up to me at all at this point. He does know that i love him and want to work things out and rigjt now thats all i can do.
-
My H was very resistant to the idea that he was depressed even though it was quite clear. My thought is coming from you it will only be met with defensiveness. If someone else sees it they may be able to approach him but I know even trying to get h's family to see his depression wasn't productive. And this was even before BD. I read a book called loving a depressed man which was helpful in giving strategies to communicate without alienating him.
-
C4E, I found this to be an excellent article on the topic, addressed to the depressed person:
http://whatismidlifecrisis.blogspot.com/2013/07/selection-from-carver-joseph-phd_16.html?m=1
-
My husband asked me one day " do you think I am depressed?" I said I believed he was but we need to do some research or go to the doctor. He then used it against me from that point on. Yep, said I "diagnosed" him because I could not face the marriage was over and a whole slew of remarks. Flatly denied depression but let me do an online question are with him. He had many symptoms. But it then made him very angry. I too worried, because he said he knew the best place to drive his truck off a bridge. I went to the doctor and told him everything. He gave me a pamphlet and told me " get him in here ". Not possible.
This is also very interesting.
Why depressed men leave @ storied mind (http://www.storiedmind.com/self-esteem/why-depressed-men-leave-1/)
RCR Edited: I got the link pasted in so you should now be able to click through to Part I of the series.
-
Mine made the decision on his own to seek psychiatric care in 2010, coming off of a long bout of depression/anxiety throughout 2009. I was extremely supportive. We discussed that he would likely be given some sort of medication (something we'd agreed before was over prescribed from what we saw from friends), and I supported him if he wanted to try it.
He first visited his medical doctor that ordered blood tests and initially gave him the bipolar diagnosis. He was given Seroquel XR which is an anti-psychotic, and a referral to a psychiatrist.
The Seroquel was overwhelming for him, both from side effects and from his fears of 'going crazy' as some members of his family had. He did both talk therapy with a separate counselor and a changes of meds to various SSRI drugs through the psych, who wanted to retrain his brain with the drugs and stabilize him before digging very deep into the family issues.
He said he enjoyed the talk therapy the most, and there was a brief improvement with one of the SSRIs and the talk therapy. But the physical side effects again sidelined him, and the last med change sent him into the darkest pre-BD place. He stopped everything cold turkey against the recommendation of the psych, and it was hell with an in-house monster for about a year until BD.
It was in that year off of drugs when he casually mentioned hearing voices that told him to hang himself with an electrical cord in the garage. I know where this came from - he had an uncle (by marriage) that did just that when he was very small. And if you saw our garage - it was an illogical thought. I believe the imbalance of serotonin, by Dr. Joe Carver's words, was bringing up horrific memories and he was personalizing them instead of seeing them for what they were. In his case, it passed.
Having said all of that, even though treatment is a logical response to a situation like this, the right treatment is not easy to find. I thought just entering the process would be a 'quick fix' for what he was experiencing. Turns out it was the tipping point. I don't regret supporting it, because like I say, it makes sense to seek help, and I of course did not want him to do anything drastic. He's a gun collector now, and I don't fear he'll do anything to harm himself with them. They are a shield I think because he is afraid and wants to protect himself, but his confusion is coming from who the enemy really is. Hopefully he will either process and reach out to channels more suited to provide the help he needs, or this process will continue on until he reaches some sort of more "awakened" balance. But certainly, the more I tried to guide the process, the more he rebelled from that. Just my experience.
-
The two people my husband trusts are me and his mother. There's no one else that he is close to in a meaningful way that he could talk to, and I am the one he trusts the most, and that is a bit affected by the MLC in certain aspects. In fact, perhaps that is part of the reason for his depression, because when you start treating the one who you trust more than anyone like $h!te, you start to perceive you are destroying your own support network.
At one point when I was seeking an intervention on something I talked to his younger sister who I have made aware of the MLC, but she is a lot younger than him and so he doesn't regard her as anything more than his little sister in a sense that he is not going to take advice from her so that went nowhere. His mother is uneducated and although I have talked to her about the MLC thing, there's no way she is equipped to have this conversation.
He's gotten defensive about me saying it is MLC. However, we have discussed other quite sensitive medical aspects of what is going on with him and he was OK with that, which makes me think that he might be open to discussing depression. I told him he seemed depressed at one point and he did not get defensive, just said he wasn't depressed very calmly, but it was clear there was something, he just seemed at a loss for words to explain what it was. He has complained to me about being under a lot of stress right now. I think that is what he views his problem as. But he has told me he has no feelings for anyone. When he has memory lapses I call him on it.
I'd say my longterm relationship potential with my husband into the future is a lot more firm than that of most LBSs. I think I can safely say probably the only times my husband says he wants to divorce are in situations where he is acting defensive when he perceives I am unhappy with the current situation or I outright tell him I am. When not on the defensive, he is declaring that we will be together forever, if I want it. In fact, pre-MLC he would sometimes say he wanted to leave me simply when he got angry about something at me. His annoyance reached a level he claimed he wanted to leave. I don't even feel that I could annoy him into wanting divorce anymore. It's truly a fearful defensive mechanism these days. I don't regard this as a situation where my marriage may or may not survive. It will. I think he may be more afraid it won't than me. It's a matter of getting through a difficult temporary period where he is basically unable to act like a husband. But the most important part of our relationship that we agreed upon as he was slipping away into his tunnel is that we help eachother solve problems. So that's why I still feel that it isn't a risk to my relationship with him if I bring up depression. It might even be a relief to him that I am worrying about him than feeling depressed myself. As I said, this is not about my relationship with him because I feel it is secure in the long run. I really am concerned about him as himself.
I think the best thing for me to do is to wait for him to bring up something that would allow me to open the conversation naturally. I'm not trying to get him to a psychiatrist for a fix to his problems. He's a doctor himself and that's the thing. He's not going to go to his family physician who might notice something wrong or whatever. He IS his own family physician. He's MY doctor, so I am used to him looking after my health and worrying about it so I don't think it is a stretch for me to turn it around. He's around his doctor colleagues all the time but he's not going to be showing them the side of himself that they would realize what is going on to intervene and they aren't psychiatrists. I don't want to diagnose him but I want him to realize these are possible symptoms of depression (he's an internist, so he doesn't know a lot about psychiatry) and if he feels hopeless enough I can just say you shouldn't be afraid to get some help for it if you want to do so. Also, he might want to travel to the city to see a doctor and he would need a cover story and someone to take care of him especially if he has to take drugs that will knock him out of it for a few days, and I could help him by going along and pretending I am the one going to see a doctor for any made up problem.
It's either me or no one.
-
I have read that some men won't accept the term "depression" because it sounds like melancholy or sadness.
One approach that someone offered me was to ask how he was feeling, lots of open ended questions, then perhaps introduce some symptoms of depression, still without mentioning the word depression.
I feel you have such a handle on this.
-
I have read that some men won't accept the term "depression" because it sounds like melancholy or sadness.
One approach that someone offered me was to ask how he was feeling, lots of open ended questions, then perhaps introduce some symptoms of depression, still without mentioning the word depression.
I feel you have such a handle on this.
I think that is why he didn't agree with it either This was right after he told me he had no feelings for anyone, so of course he is not going to feel sad. Just empty.
Glad to hear you say that you think I have a handle on this. I would hope so since I spend way too much time obsessing over it! I know they say we need to detach and I am doing that with regards to interacting with him because it is clearly for the best, but our marriage in the long term I don't feel is on the line, so I question the benefit of detaching completely in my own mind privately. He asked me explicitly as he went into his tunnel for patience, not for a divorce. I promised him he would have no regrets staying married to me. So what can I do?
-
C4E, I found this to be an excellent article on the topic, addressed to the depressed person:
http://whatismidlifecrisis.blogspot.com/2013/07/selection-from-carver-joseph-phd_16.html?m=1
I found the first part of this interesting. Although depression is a big part of most MLC, I feel that the stress of how he has chosen to handle the issue that led to his MLC is what has pushed him into a depressed state, not the issue itself. When he first was in replay he was distant, but I don't feel he was depressed. Then I had to go away for a few months for something not related to his MLC. We were in contact, not that much, but I know he was under extreme stress at that time and all of that stress was indirectly and directly related to his relationship with the OW. At one point when he was complaining about the stress to me on the phone, I said, "You know I am not responsible for probably 99% of that stress." And he laughed and agreed with me. He continues to complain of stress, but doesn't lay the blame on me. I continue to try not to be the source of it and I think I am doing pretty good at that. I think focusing on the stress would be a good way for me to broach the topic of depression though because 1-I know I am a very small part of his stress (at least in terms of my actions, not sure about what is going on in his mind) and 2-it is what he recognizes he is suffering from.
-
I posted this on the limerence thread earlier today but I think it might be seen more here
Someone put this link on my thread in Nov 2015, at the time I never looked at it but I did some time later and found it a very powerful way of describing just what depression feels like.
Here is the link, its a blog written by someone who experiences depression and she has made this animation to describe how she felt
http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/depression-part-two.html
-
Why depressed men leave @ storied mind ( will not let me copy link )
Interesting. I found it and this part jumped out at me:
Isolation. Isolating from others doesn’t mean physical separation so much as creating distance while you’re with family, friends, everyone who’s close. I could do this by being angry or abusive, or by an emotional and mental disappearance in plain sight. On any given day, I could shift from one unmindful strategy to the other.
This is quite interesting. I can understand it and it makes a lot of sense, but our dynamic in the distant past was if he got angry, I would chase after him to solve it. Not anymore with MLC. I do the opposite. However, we did have a discussion recently where I told him it seemed he needed alone time and he agreed, but he isn't getting any at all right now and I think that could be a big part of his depression. So is he trying to drive me away by being an ass? If he is, it is working.
-
C4E this is an excellent discussion. I have some similar experiences; my H is also a doc (as am I, so I had no hesitation in diagnosing the depression!), but very resistant to the notion that he might have been / be depressed. Perhaps because he's an ER doc, and sees depression only in its most severe state; there's also the very masculine aversion to the word depression as weak and unmanly; also, there's a family history of personality disorders combined with an extreme distrust of psychiatry, so it's totally anathema in his FOO to be thought to have a psych disorder.
Innocent of all this, soon after BD, I had suggested to H's mom that H showed all the signs of a major depression - so she immediately reported this to H, who roared back in full monster and almost threw me out of the house. Bad scene. I actually averted violence by effacing myself and slipping out for a run. A long run. H evidently got bored with chewing on the wainscoting in my absence, and left by the time I came home.
I just suggest a little caution in approaching this with your H. If his defenses are up, you may see him dig his heels in. And to tell truth, I'm not sure I'd blame him (or my H, in retrospect); when I'm at my most ornery and PMS-y, just how would I feel if someone pointed out to me that my emotions were being driven crazy by my cycle? I might just tear that person's arm off and beat them with the wet end. >:( I suspect my H had a similar reaction. In fact he jettisoned any friend who suggested depression or counseling to him, and kept only those friends who reinforced his own point of view (osb is holding you back, you deserve to be happy, etc etc). It's only now, in retrospect, that H sees he "might not have been thinking straight back then". The word 'depression' still gets a miss.
-
Chanigng when you say things like:
“I'd say my longterm relationship potential with my husband into the future is a lot more firm than that of most LBSs.”
Or
“I don't regard this as a situation where my marriage may or may not survive. It will.”
You’ve said things like this before. It ruffles my feathers. To me it sounds so presumptuous to say your situation is better than others or has a better chance, without an explanation.
We have NO idea what you base this on.
I’m really not trying to start an argument, I’m just trying to understand. You apparently have your reasons but please do not assume you know what other relationships are like.
The dynamics of every marriage is different.
Maybe it would help to explain why you feel your marriage has a better chance than most.
-
I'd say the main reason has little to do with personal dynamics and more to do with cultural/legal/religious differences. The advice you read on HS and HB is based on an American Protestant background/moral view subject to the sorts of civil marriage/divorce laws you find in US states. I'm from the US but I don't live in the US now so I know the difference. I believe MLC is not tied to culture. It's an illness with physical causes, but all illnesses are experienced and expressed in different ways in different cultures. And so the way it played out and is playing out for us isn't the same.
Maybe it bothers you but for me until now I see no reason to believe that my husband will wake up one day and decide to divorce me. I can't lie. He could, yes, in theory, but there's nothing now that points in that direction for me. I respect my husband and he asked for my patience from the outset, has been completely up front and transparent about what he is doing and why, told me what is going on now that I find hard to accept is temporary, and he has said he will stay with me forever and take care of me as long as that is what I want. Not because I asked that from him, but because that is what he feels inside him. His current behavior is totally MLC, which is why I am here, but I know his motivations and intentions too. In fact, you will find it hard to believe but he considers what he is doing for OUR mutual benefit, not just him. His BD with me was basically, "We've got this problem we are both facing. Here's how I want to solve it. Are you willing to stay with me or not while I do this?" That's the cultural difference of his MLC. He's taking on suffering for us. It would have been so much easier for him to dump me from the outset, and only think of himself, but he doesn't want to do that. So what am I supposed to do? Accuse him of lying?
Don't think I have it easier than you, in fact, what I am going through at the moment probably would be unbearable for most of you and you would have kicked your husband to the curb in a similar situation, but I believe the outcome in the end will be positive so I am willing to put up with suffering like this to get there. We promised eachother when we married that we would not abandon one another in hard times. He's not a great husband right now, but he is committed and respecting those vows to the best of his current ability. And I am trying to do the same. I don't have to apologize to anyone for that.
-
Male Depression and female Depression are worlds different. I would suggest reading more on Male Depression to gain understanding of it's symptoms first and take it from there.
-
That's a very good point. I came across this article that describes what is a more typical male pattern of depression and I think it makes a lot of sense:
http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/irritable-angry-depression-experience/
-
I told him he seemed depressed at one point and he did not get defensive, just said he wasn't depressed very calmly, but it was clear there was something, he just seemed at a loss for words to explain what it was.
This is called DENIAL.
Part of the first stage of MLC and quite common with mental illness.
No one wants to admit that they are not functioning correctly.
If he is a doctor he will be even more resistant, it might jeopardize his status and his manhood.
I suggest you stop going down this line as it may make things worse.
Anti depressants will not shorten an MLC but give temporary relief for the symptoms.
Again I suggest you step back, you are trying to control this and it will not work.
-
Changing,
It doesn't bother me you feel you have no chance of getting a divorce, and you don't need to apologize for how you feel.
I guess it was just comparing yourself to everyone else, saying you have a better chance than most LBS's.
You don't know that.
There are all kinds of different cultures in the US. Some probably very similar to yours.
There are religions that forbid divorce or it is just not accepted.
Anyway, thank you for taking the time to explain that. :)
-
I would normally agree with you but I don't know if it exactly was denial. He was not angry when I said it at all. I think though the typical idea of depression is that it is about sadness. And he doesn't feel sad right now. He just feels nothing and if he feels anything it is anger and aggression. I also felt he did feel there was something wrong. He didn't say, "No I don't have depression!" It was more, "It's not depression..." as if he knew there was something going on but he couldn't find the right words to describe it. And that itself can be a symptom of depression. The inability to find the words to describe your emotions.
I am not worried about challenging his manhood. Believe me, I have done that in other ways that are much more direct and he had absolutely no problem with me doing it. He was able to handle it all in a very clinical and detached manner because he knows the issue I challenged him on wouldn't affect our relationship. I just think if I raise the issue as stress rather than depression directly he would be OK with it.
-
There are all kinds of different cultures in the US. Some probably very similar to yours.
There are religions that forbid divorce or it is just not accepted.
And that is precisely why I described the advice as Protestant-oriented. For example, Catholics can't remarry for example, at least not in the church. For example, many French people don't necessarily see an affair as immoral or bad and it doesn't cause them the same angst as it would cause an American. For example, in some countries adultery is a crime punishable by death. The advice here and on the HB site is very oriented to a single religious/cultural view. One which in a way is black or white. The MLCer is either going to stay married to you, or divorce you to marry the other woman. That this is the only way the crisis will ever be resolved. Well, sometimes the outcome could be different.
-
I agree HB's site is very religious oriented, that's why I don't follow her.
I like this site because it's open to anyone and doesn't have that religious overtone.
I'm certainly not against religion. I have a strong believe in God, but not everyone does.
Telling someone to put their problems in God's hands when they don't believe in God makes no sense to me.
Yes, the outcome could be different. My H divorced me but did not have another woman. There are people who go through this crisis, get a D but end up remarrying each other. Some get divorced and remain good friends.
Every situation is different. I don't feel it's that black or white.
I do think divorce has become too easy and that may be one thing about American culture I don't like or agree with.
Back to talking about depression with your H I think your idea of calling it stress may be a better approach. Most men don't bristle over the word stress and can more easily talk about it.
-
The advice here and on the HB site is very oriented to a single religious/cultural view. One which in a way is black or white. The MLCer is either going to stay married to you, or divorce you to marry the other woman. That this is the only way the crisis will ever be resolved. Well, sometimes the outcome could be different.
Changing I personally don't know where on earth you have got this view from.
I have been on here on and off for two years I have seen so many varied outcomes. I have read so many stories, I have been through nearly every archived story and every article I could lay my hands on, on here, on HB, on divorce busting and other places.
Whereas I agree the HB site is a very Christian site.....I still haven't seen only two outcomes on there either.
Infact thats the thing with MLC there is no black and white there are just huge swathes of grey. I just don't know where you got the black and white outcome from I really don't......and as I said I have read and compiled information from literally hundreds of pages of articles, quotes, insights stories.
I am from the UK (not that it has anyting to do with it but just saying) I am not religious I am spiritual and I believe in the power of the universe.
I believe my H will come home (I don't like to say back as it has negative vibes to me) and BTW I have had lots of similar conversations with my H, as you have had with yours where he admitted something is wrong with his head, he is not himself, he is feeling down and latterly mentioned he had to get his thoughts right.
I believe in my marriage, I believe in my H, I know this is not who he truly is and I know we will be happy again.
I have armed myself with all the knowledge I need about MLC, I had a great therapist who was also a neuroscientist and had lots of experience in MLC. She has a more optimistic view of MLC outcomes and has always urged me to be compassionate with my H, to build a pathway for him to follow when his head turned to home, I have never gone no contact, because in my case it would not work and in the main I have found the articles RCR has written to be quite accurate (in my case) and I have used what I can and discarded what doesn't fit my circumstances and followed my instincts, but the one thing I do know is my H has to go through this crisis, (now its started), because if he doesn't then this WILL happen again. The hardest lesson I had to learn was I could not fix this for H.
I believe there are stories on here past and present, that IMO are not MLC, they have been exit affairs, limerent affairs, some that are mentally ill with bipolar or other personality disorders or depression without crisis.
I have seen you mention or hint many times your story is different, maybe it is...........But if you really think your H is in MLC, then all you can you wont be able to fix it for him either, you can be his friend, you can be compassionate, you can read up on everything but you cannot fix it or control it.
I wish you luck in whatever you do
-
I'm really not trying to fix or control him. Only he can do that. But would one stand by and watch someone go into depression and possibly have suicidal thoughts and not do anything if it wasn't MLC?
I'm not looking to stage an imminent intervention with my husband, but I want to be prepared, in case he does seem to be going over the edge in the future. Because I know what he is seeking out of this whole MLC and it might be an impossible goal, and that is something I am worried about because it is the sort of thing that he might think he can otherwise solve by taking his life in some twisted sort of logic.
Depression is an illness with a risk of death (via suicide). If our spouses are suffering from depression (with or without MLC) then they are at risk. I just don't see why we should ignore that fact. It's not about fixing them or controlling them. It's about potentially saving their life.
I actually find HB's articles to be very spot in her descriptions of MLC, maybe even more so than RCR's. although I find both useful. I just ignore all the, "I got my info from God" stuff. She doesn't give herself enough credit for the great insights she has in my opinion. However, RCR is still steeped in a certain cultural/religious background even if she isn't explicit about it the way HB is. I'm not talking about the varied outcomes that we see. I am talking about the advice in the articles, which is a lot more one viewpoint than what we see in reality.
-
Changing
The articles on all sights are not a step by step plan they are views, take what you can and leave the rest, but listen to your instincts and rely on the knowledge you have of the man you love and what he was before the crisis and belief of what he can be and what your marriage can be after.
Depression is an illness with a risk of death (via suicide). If our spouses are suffering from depression (with or without MLC) then they are at risk. I just don't see why we should ignore that fact. It's not about fixing them or controlling them. It's about potentially saving their life.
All of us are scared for our marriages and our spouses I am sure of that....and I don't think anyone is ignoring the risks but there is a point where you realise you have no control and that's really the hardest part, it really is.
I would give my life for my husband even now.......but it wont help him.
So what I have done is let him know I am there, I haven't put any pressure on him, I have let him come to me, I have let him talk about what he wants to talk about.
I haven't offered to help unless he has asked for it, I have learnt to talk cryptically to him as this is the least confrontational way to get him to talk.
But just when I think he is coming forward he runs again.......
My H had a brain bleed last year, (a few days after our 11th wedding anniversary he had bought me flowers, we spent most of the day together - I documented the conversations I had with him, he talked of coming home)....... he text me when his brain bleed happened, he called me as soon as he came out of hospital he told me he loved me, he was scared, I was scared for him, I was worried sick for him infact .
5 days later he signed divorce papers.........10 days later he went back to work, )didn't tell his work what had happened .........
I think I realised then, after days of sleepless nights and worry I had no control over this and was going to be ill myself......so I don't dive in the sea with him now I stand on the shore with the life jacket in my hand and throw it to him if he calls for help.........
That's all any of us can do
Take carexx
-
I am surprised Anjae has not been here yet to explain there are several threads on depression, particularly male depression.
She has put many of my articles of my own research on the links/blogs/articles thread including this topic, along with solutions of what the LBS can do. I gave them to my H and things got a bit better for us. Yet just a bit better, and that was only for us, everyone is different.
I agree with 1trouble, there is no guide or step by step solution.
The article you posted Changing is good yet barely scrapes the broad topic of Male Depression.
No one can help the MLCer, we can only help ourselves.
-
I think C4E is making some valid points.
I also believe MLC is an illness, and that in many ways the cultural framing would impact the outcome, in a very similar way that gender might also impact the outcome, not because of how it manifests but because of how people respond to it.
For example, I am on same bomb drop timeline as a male LBS on the forum. His in laws moved in with his LBS wife. They took care of her and the kids and in many ways treated her as someone in trouble who needed support -- not someone who was on a journey and needed to figure things out on her own, or someone who had fallen out of love with her husband. Incidentally, they are also not American.
Contrast to my case, same bomb drop. Family totally uninvolved. Not once contacted me to ask about our son, or check in to see if MLCer is okay. They are American, and are treating it as a problem of "unhappiness," with no concern for their son's mental health, or grandson's future and opportunities. As Americans, they prioritize individual pursuit of happiness at all costs -- even to finances, children, reputation. This is despite at least five incidences of MLC in four generations in just the immediate family, plus rampant depression and other spectrum type illnesses.
As a result, MLCer is even more isolated, no support, and had deteriorated in many ways. I believe if one of his parents had moved in he would in contrast have gradually improved with someone taking care of him. (He is with OW all the time but he is taking care of her.)
-
We moved to live with my MIL around the time my husband's MLC started. She is definitely part of the trigger for the MLC indirectly, but that is not because she did anything intentionally. I think if she wasn't in the picture the MLC may never have happened to be perfectly honest, but one can never be sure about that.
However, the important point is she always stands by me and tells me, "Be patient. He loves you so much." She knows this has nothing to do with me or how he feels about me and it is all about him. She does get annoyed at me for his sometimes distancing himself from me (and by extension her) when I put my foot down about monstering and then I am the one to tell her to be patient, that he needs this time away from us to come back better, which she agrees with. I try to make her understand that if he was ok, he would not distance himself from her at the same time as me, as what kind of man distances himself from his mother to spite his wife? She doesn't really understand the ins and outs of MLC although I have tried to explain to her, but she gets very annoyed at me when I do something that she perceives as aggravating him (when he is the problem), not for his sake, but because she feels that I am hurting myself with him and she doesn't want us to be broken up. She doesn't understand I am applying necessary strategies, but her heart is in the right place. I have told her I don't want her to intervene between us, but one time when he was ready to throw me out she urged him not to and he claims it was her that stopped him. I'm not sure that is entirely true though as he kept running back and forth to her room at that time, of course knowing she would try to stop him, so I wonder if his subconscious wanted her to do that. I on the other hand just told him to leave me to sleep as I really didn't care what he did at that point.
Part of the 180 rules if you have seen them is never complain about your spouse to your in-laws. Well, I do it every day and it hasn't hurt me yet. My mother-in-law wanted me to marry my husband before he even thought of it himself. (I met the two of them at the same time) so she has always been on my side.
There is more where I could compare and contrast with your situation Velika but i think I will save that for a PM.
-
I don't know yet Velika are you stereotyping ALL Americans?
If anything I know it's script for the MLCer to search outside of himself to find 'happiness' could it be the MLCer has spoken on his quest to pursue 'happiness' no matter chich country he is from and not ALL Americans?
-
I don't know yet Velika are you stereotyping ALL Americans?
If anything I know it's script for the MLCer to search outside of himself to find 'happiness' could it be the MLCer has spoken on his quest to pursue 'happiness' no matter chich country he is from and not ALL Americans?
I believe in general male American MLC plays out a certain way because of the context it takes place in, yes.
In general I think Americans -- especially men -- are very isolated from one another, especially as they age. This is both physical and emotional isolation. On top of this, American concept of marriage is romance oriented, not family oriented. American society is highly secular. Moreover, it is much harder in the U.S. than other countries to have a certain quality of life as a middle or lower economic group. (I'm not talking about material quality of life.)
Adding to this the dominant narrative of American personal story is job success + romantic/sexual fulfillment + freedom. I think other cultures to varying degrees add religion, family loyalty, self sacrifice, and educational achievement to this mix.
So while this chemical imbalance may happen everywhere, I think there is a reason why freedom/isolation, romance/sex, individual gratification, and spending money are the typical antidotes in male American MLC.
-
Velika,
I would have to disagree there. You might be talking about particular Americans yet in no way is it right at all in my and my H's situation.
You really can't generalize ALL American's at all. This county have a mixture of races, cultures, and religions.
There is no set standard way of life here. While in MLC there is a specific script they go by.
Sorry you feel that way about ALL Americans yet it's not true at all.
-
"In general I think Americans -- especially men -- are very isolated from one another, especially as they age. This is both physical and emotional isolation."
I partially agree with this statement, but only for men. They are very isolated from one another emotionally.
They don't seem to have the ability to talk about their emotions with other men, and the other men don't know how to handle conversations like this. So they just don't talk. Most men feel more comfortable talking to women who they feel will understand, even then not always. Many men, sadly, talk to no one about their emotions.
They also are not comfortable being physical with each other unless it's to play some sport. ::)
Women on the other hand talk about their emotions with each other all the time. They hug and have no problem kissing or holding each other. So they are not emotionally or physically isolated. Far from it.
My best friend and I cuddled on the couch the other night watching a movie. :)
I have no idea whether this is just an American thing with men but I do agree...in general.
There are always exceptions.
-
So Thunder do you agree MLC is different in different countries too?
-
Women on the other hand talk about their emotions with each other all the time. They hug and have no problem kissing or holding each other.
So they are not emotionally or physically isolated. Far from it.
My best friend and I cuddled on the couch the other night watching a movie. :)
In general men have more testosterone(muscles/drive hormone).
Women have more estrogen(emotions/nurturing hormone)
So I have to agree with you.
Or at least until we get old when it all switches around.
-
No, I think MLC is the same in all countries.
-
I think if we are going to be comparing we need to focus on areas where it actually makes a difference in MLC.
And I can tell you my husband's MLC is definitely NOT about finding happiness, but he's not American in origin either.
-
Searching outside themselves is one aspect of MLC.
Changing what do you feel your H's MLC is about?
Thunder, that is what Changing and Velika are expressing, that 'American's MLC is not the same as other countries.
I disagreed with them and say MLC is MLC no matter where you are from.
-
I wasn't a huge fan of Dr. John Gray that wrote those "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" books. But around 2012 I read his "Venus of Fire, Mars on Ice" which talks about the hormonal differences between men and women and how that impacts their relationships, and it changed my view on some of his work. He talked about how neurotransmitters (as they were just becoming more deeply studied at the time he wrote it) also impacted their communication styles and needs in order to stay balanced and effective. I think it was last year when he updated it as well. It's worth picking up a copy: https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_2_13?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=venus+on+fire+mars+on+ice&sprefix=Venus+on+fire%2Caps%2C233&crid=3UHEX4SPJL4AH
-
Women and men bond differently because of socialization, not hormones.
Baby boys are born showing more variety of emotion than baby girls. In Ancient Greece, the ideal love was beteeen two men. In many culture outside of the U.S. men can openly hold hands with friends and socialize regularly with other men. If you travel to a country like Italy or Spain and elsewhere men are very affectionate to children and boys, even to strangers. People touch when greeting and regularly socialize with their extended family, if not live with them. In most parts of the world young people live at home with their parents while attending university, meaning the social structure formed in childhood -- family, friends, neighborhood -- remains intact.
Americans often live in geographically isolated ways. Many men have few social or support structures outside of marriage beyond high school, college, and military. I have read that many men become intensely depressed when they return from military service for precisely this reason, loss of social support and camaraderie.
Social support and belonging is a profoundly human need that cannot be assessed by one person, a spouse. In a culture where marriage is often the only social support for men you can see why they would feel betrayed by the marriage once a serious depression hit.
-
This thread is going all over the place.
Changing what is your H MLC about?
Are you sure it's MLC?
-
If you take a look at the geographic locations of the members here they come from all over the world. Spanning over 8 countries and every area of those countries.
I have been on this site for over 4 years and have yet to see much difference in the stories (w/exception of possibly Changing now). They all do and say the same things, like a script.
How someone from Singapore can have an exact story matching someone in New Zealand or Europe tells me there is no difference. In my opinion MLC is MLC no matter where you live.
Now how it's dealt with may vary. Laws are different in each country.
-
I hesitate to say anything because I don't believe that one can do much to help a MLCer. I would just like to say that my beloved is not American or British, he is Brazilian and I see the same things in him as I see in others on the board.
I sometimes wonder Changing whether your husband is a man on a mission and not a MLCer?
Sometimes people decide to carry out their lifelong dreams before it is too late and they may exclude every one else to do it. He may have asked you to be patient and wait for him since he realizes that you are an important part of his life - a bit like someone who needs to pass an important career changing public exam? Here in Brazil, one has to dedicate themselves heart and soul to studying 14 hours a day in order to pass certain government exams to hold public office. They give up everything - time with family, social media, social activities, no more movies, going to the beach, no more bars - just study, study, study... seven days a week. I have a friend who is in her mid forties who has been doing this for two years now, she has four children and a husband... they have to do without her for now.
Just saying...
-
I am surprised Anjae has not been here yet to explain there are several threads on depression, particularly male depression.
I don't live on the board, Elegance. :) And everyone can sort topics by icon, right? ;) :) Still, here they are:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=141.0 - Depression in Men, Articles, Links to
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8290.0 - Male Menopause
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1646.0 - Signs of Depression during MLC
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4550.0 - Covert Depression and Why They Run
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4550.0 - Diference Betwenn MLC and Depression
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=7036.0 - Anti-Depressants and Links to MLC
This thread is going all over the place.
It Is.
In Ancient Greece, the ideal love was beteeen two men.
Wrong, between a man and a young man (adolescent). Two adult men was frown upon and not acceptable.
If you take a look at the geographic locations of the members here they come from all over the world. Spanning over 8 countries and every area of those countries.
I thiunk MLC is pretty much the same thing everywhere.
We are from more than 8 countries. I am not on the list, nor is Mermaid, that also lives here. Nor are several other members that come from different countries.
Mr J is Portuguese (albeit 1/4 British). So is Mermaid's one. They are both having a MLC.
Changinmg, I am starting to be tired of yours, "I am so different from everyone else and my marriage has better changes of survive because divorce is not exactly an option".
It may not be, but a second wife is a very real legal possibility , isn't it? Or you may be repudiated. Therefore, I would not see your situation as so much better than ours. So, it may be a good idea to think twice before writting certain things.
-
I think someone anywhere can have a MLC but how it manifests and the response would be different depending on the culture. If for example someone lives in a spiritually oriented culture and felt empty inside, they might abandon family but to pursue a spiritual path. If someone has a MLC in a culture where family honor is evrhrhing, they might be more likely to commit suicide than disgrace family with an affair.
Anjae, thank you for fact check, this is helpful. I guess the point is that in many cultures there is high level of male bonding and intimacy. This at least I think could help ward off depression and reduce stress, minimizing likelihood of severe crisis.
-
Women and men bond differently because of socialization, not hormones.
Baby boys are born showing more variety of emotion than baby girls.
The hormonal differences in men and woman is well known and I believe is the major difference that causes different socialization.
Baby boys have not yet developed hormones as that comes later in life,
so early and late in life men and women are more alike than different.
It is in the middle when we are most different with changes in hormones.
MLC has hormonal depression as one of the causes.
That is why it is more or less the same in most humans.
Of course, different laws and morals help to guide it.
But I believe it is more scientific than that.
My .02
-
My h goes back and forth with his idea of being depressed. He did say he was thinknig of going on antidepressives " happy pills" as we call them. My bil ( which is h best friend) is on them. H. Said he wants to be like him . Happy and quirky. Im working on that side ( if i ever mention anything). Wanting to be happy rather than approach the dx of depression.
-
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3261.0#new
Gives some idea of the many different countries that our members are from, and that is only a small sampling of members as most do not post where they are from.
I really thought 7 1/2 years ago that my husband's situation was different...he told me he just needed space, he continued daily contact, asked me to join him a year later on another foreign assignment, he never monstered, he bought me thoughtful and beautiful gifts and he comes from a very strong Catholic background (to this day he still attends mass regularly)...we were very happily married for 32 years......
He told me he just needed space..........
Yet here we are, many years later and he is in no way coming back to me or our marriage. I still have hope he will but there no signs he will...even though we went away on 2 vacations in the past 6 months together as a family.
Changing although you wish to believe that somehow your situation is "different"...it may not be so different after all.
-
Op, I agree with you.
MLC has hormonal depression as one of the causes. That's why it is more or less the same in most humans.
Doesn't matter where you live.
-
My H calls MLC his 'Depression' yet has no problem saying he's having a MLC, actually he is the one that told me.
-
XYZ,
I guess that was what I was trying to say. When I joined this site, I had a hard time believing my H was truly in a crisis. Our situation was so very different from what I was reading story after story.
Yes, he wanted a D but he was considerate of my feelings. willing to be patient to get his single life going. No pressure, No Monster, No ow, No spending money, No I don't love you, No I hate you, No name calling. I thought he just really fell out of love with me.
UNTIL the day I found an article on Low Energy Wallowers. It all fell in place.
He was in crisis but he was not the "norm". Most MLCer's are high energy and they are easy to spot.
Wallower's are very confusing. They seem so much milder but underneath their not. So you're left more confused.
Sorry I have no idea what got me on this tangent. :)
I guess I just don't believe there is a huge difference. Their crisis may seem different, but it really isn't.
The anger is just harder to see. But the depression is there.