[Thunder]

Changing,
It doesn't bother me you feel you have no chance of getting a divorce, and you don't need to apologize for how you feel.

I guess it was just comparing yourself to everyone else, saying you have a better chance than most LBS's.
You don't know that.

There are all kinds of different cultures in the US.  Some probably very similar to yours.
There are religions that forbid divorce or it is just not accepted.

Anyway, thank you for taking the time to explain that.   

[Not Applicable]

I would normally agree with you but I don't know if it exactly was denial. He was not angry when I said it at all. I think though the typical idea of depression is that it is about sadness. And he doesn't feel sad right now. He just feels nothing and if he feels anything it is anger and aggression. I also felt he did feel there was something wrong. He didn't say, "No I don't have depression!" It was more, "It's not depression..." as if he knew there was something going on but he couldn't find the right words to describe it. And that itself can be a symptom of depression. The inability to find the words to describe your emotions.

I am not worried about challenging his manhood. Believe me, I have done that in other ways that are much more direct and he had absolutely no problem with me doing it. He was able to handle it all in a very clinical and detached manner because he knows the issue I challenged him on wouldn't affect our relationship. I just think if I raise the issue as stress rather than depression directly he would be OK with it.

[Not Applicable]

There are all kinds of different cultures in the US.  Some probably very similar to yours.
There are religions that forbid divorce or it is just not accepted.

And that is precisely why I described the advice as Protestant-oriented. For example, Catholics can't remarry for example, at least not in the church. For example, many French people don't necessarily see an affair as immoral or bad and it doesn't cause them the same angst as it would cause an American. For example, in some countries adultery is a crime punishable by death. The advice here and on the HB site is very oriented to a single religious/cultural view. One which in a way is black or white. The MLCer is either going to stay married to you, or divorce you to marry the other woman. That this is the only way the crisis will ever be resolved. Well, sometimes the outcome could be different.

[Thunder]

I agree HB's site is very religious oriented, that's why I don't follow her.

I like this site because it's open to anyone and doesn't have that religious overtone.

I'm certainly not against religion.  I have a strong believe in God, but not everyone does.
Telling someone to put their problems in God's hands when they don't believe in God makes no sense to me.

Yes, the outcome could be different.  My H divorced me but did not have another woman.  There are people who go through this crisis, get a D but end up remarrying each other.  Some get divorced and remain good friends. 
Every situation is different.  I don't feel it's that black or white.

I do think divorce has become too easy and that may be one thing about American culture I don't like or agree with.

Back to talking about depression with your H I think your idea of calling it stress may be a better approach.  Most men don't bristle over the word stress and can more easily talk about it.

[1trouble]

The advice here and on the HB site is very oriented to a single religious/cultural view. One which in a way is black or white. The MLCer is either going to stay married to you, or divorce you to marry the other woman. That this is the only way the crisis will ever be resolved. Well, sometimes the outcome could be different.

Changing I personally don't know where on earth you have got this view from.

I have been on here on and off for two years I have seen so many varied outcomes.  I have read so many stories, I have been through nearly every archived story and every article I could lay my hands on, on here, on HB, on divorce busting and other places.

Whereas I agree the HB site is a very Christian site.....I still haven't seen only two outcomes on there either.

Infact thats the thing with MLC there is no black and white there are just huge swathes of grey.  I just don't know where you got the black and white outcome from I really don't......and as I said I have read and compiled information from literally hundreds of pages of articles, quotes, insights stories.

I am from the UK (not that it has anyting to do with it but just saying) I am not religious I am spiritual and I believe in the power of the universe.
I believe my H will come home (I don't like to say back as it has negative vibes to me) and BTW I have had lots of similar conversations with my H, as you have had with yours where he admitted something is wrong with his head, he is not himself, he is feeling down and latterly mentioned he had to get his thoughts right.
I believe in my marriage, I believe in my H, I know this is not who he truly is and I know we will be happy again.

I have armed myself with all the knowledge I need about MLC, I had a great therapist who was also a neuroscientist and had lots of experience in MLC.  She has a more optimistic view of MLC outcomes and has always urged me to be compassionate with my H, to build a pathway for him to follow when his head turned to home, I have never gone no contact, because in my case it would not work and in the main I have found the articles RCR has written to be quite accurate (in my case) and I have used what I can and discarded what doesn't fit my circumstances and followed my instincts, but the one thing I do know is my H has to go through this crisis, (now its started), because if he doesn't then this WILL happen again. The hardest lesson I had to learn was I could not fix this for H.

I believe there are stories on here past and present, that IMO are not MLC, they have been exit affairs, limerent affairs, some that are mentally ill with bipolar or other personality disorders or depression without crisis.
 
I have seen you mention or hint many times your story is different, maybe it is...........But if you really think your H is in MLC, then all you can you wont be able to fix it for him either, you can be his friend, you can be compassionate, you can read up on everything but you cannot fix it or control it.

I wish you luck in whatever you do

[Not Applicable]

I'm really not trying to fix or control him. Only he can do that. But would one stand by and watch someone go into depression and possibly have suicidal thoughts and not do anything if it wasn't MLC?


I'm not looking to stage an imminent intervention with my husband, but I want to be prepared, in case he does seem to be going over the edge in the future. Because I know what he is seeking out of this whole MLC and it might be an impossible goal, and that is something I am worried about because it is the sort of thing that he might think he can otherwise solve by taking his life in some twisted sort of logic.

Depression is an illness with a risk of death (via suicide). If our spouses are suffering from depression (with or without MLC) then they are at risk. I just don't see why we should ignore that fact. It's not about fixing them or controlling them. It's about potentially saving their life.

I actually find HB's articles to be very spot in her descriptions of MLC, maybe even more so than RCR's. although I find both useful. I just ignore all the, "I got my info from God" stuff. She doesn't give herself enough credit for the great insights she has in my opinion. However, RCR is still steeped in a certain cultural/religious background even if she isn't explicit about it the way HB is. I'm not talking about the varied outcomes that we see. I am talking about the advice in the articles, which is a lot more one viewpoint than what we see in reality.

[1trouble]

Changing

The articles on all sights are not a step by step plan they are views, take what you can and leave the rest, but listen to your instincts and rely on the knowledge you have of the man you love and what he was before the crisis and belief of what he can be and what your marriage can be after.

Depression is an illness with a risk of death (via suicide). If our spouses are suffering from depression (with or without MLC) then they are at risk. I just don't see why we should ignore that fact. It's not about fixing them or controlling them. It's about potentially saving their life.

All of us are scared for our marriages and our spouses I am sure of that....and I don't think anyone is ignoring the risks but there is a point where you realise you have no control and that's really the hardest part, it really is.

I would give my life for my husband even now.......but it wont help him.
So what I have done is let him know I am there, I haven't put any pressure on him, I have let him come to me, I have let him talk about what he wants to talk about.
I haven't offered to help unless he has asked for it, I have learnt to talk cryptically to him as this is the least confrontational way to get him to talk.

But just when I think he is coming forward he runs again.......
My H had a brain bleed last year, (a few days after our 11th wedding anniversary he had bought me flowers, we spent most of the day together - I documented the conversations I had with him, he talked of coming home).......   he text me when his brain bleed happened, he called me as soon as he came out of hospital he told me he loved me, he was scared, I was scared for him, I was worried sick for him infact .
5 days later he signed divorce papers.........10 days later he went back to work, )didn't tell his work what had happened .........

I think I realised then, after days of sleepless nights and worry I had no control over this and was going to be ill myself......so I don't dive in the sea with him now I stand on the shore with the life jacket in my hand and throw it to him if he calls for help.........
That's all any of us can do
Take carexx
 
 

[Roma]

I am surprised Anjae has not been here yet to explain there are several threads on depression, particularly male depression.


She has put many of my articles of my own research on the links/blogs/articles thread including this topic, along with solutions of what the LBS can do. I gave them to my H and things got a bit better for us. Yet just a bit better, and that was only for us, everyone is different.

I agree with 1trouble, there is no guide or step by step solution.

The article you posted Changing is good yet barely scrapes the broad topic of Male Depression.

No one can help the MLCer, we can only help ourselves.

[Velika]

I think C4E is making some valid points.

I also believe MLC is an illness, and that in many ways the cultural framing would impact the outcome, in a very similar way that gender might also impact the outcome, not because of how it manifests but because of how people respond to it.

For example, I am on same bomb drop timeline as a male LBS on the forum. His in laws moved in with his LBS wife. They took care of her and the kids and in many ways treated her as someone in trouble who needed support -- not someone who was on a journey and needed to figure things out on her own, or someone who had fallen out of love with her husband. Incidentally, they are also not American.

Contrast to my case, same bomb drop. Family totally uninvolved. Not once contacted me to ask about our son, or check in to see if MLCer is okay. They are American, and are treating it as a problem of "unhappiness," with no concern for their son's mental health, or grandson's future and opportunities. As Americans, they prioritize individual pursuit of happiness at all costs -- even to finances, children, reputation. This is despite at least five incidences of MLC in four generations in just the immediate family, plus rampant depression and other spectrum type illnesses.

As a result, MLCer is even more isolated, no support, and had deteriorated in many ways. I believe if one of his parents had moved in he would in contrast have gradually improved with someone taking care of him. (He is with OW all the time but he is taking care of her.)

[Not Applicable]

We moved to live with my MIL around the time my husband's MLC started. She is definitely part of the trigger for the MLC indirectly, but that is not because she did anything intentionally.  I think if she wasn't in the picture the MLC may never have happened to be perfectly honest, but one can never be sure about that.

However, the important point is she always stands by me and tells me, "Be patient. He loves you so much." She knows this has nothing to do with me or how he feels about me and it is all about him. She does get annoyed at me for his sometimes distancing himself from me (and by extension her) when I put my foot down about monstering and then I am the one to tell her to be patient, that he needs this time away from us to come back better, which she agrees with. I try to make her understand that if he was ok, he would not distance himself from her at the same time as me, as what kind of man distances himself from his mother to spite his wife? She doesn't really understand the ins and outs of MLC although I have tried to explain to her, but she gets very annoyed at me when I do something that she perceives as aggravating him (when he is the problem), not for his sake, but because she feels that I am hurting myself with him and she doesn't want us to be broken up. She doesn't understand I am applying necessary strategies, but her heart is in the right place. I have told her I don't want her to intervene between us, but one time when he was ready to throw me out she urged him not to and he claims it was her that stopped him. I'm not sure that is entirely true though as he kept running back and forth to her room at that time, of course knowing she would try to stop him, so I wonder if his subconscious wanted her to do that. I on the other hand just told him to leave me to sleep as I really didn't care what he did at that point.

Part of the 180 rules if you have seen them is never complain about your spouse to your in-laws. Well, I do it every day and it hasn't hurt me yet. My mother-in-law wanted me to marry my husband before he even thought of it himself. (I met the two of them at the same time) so she has always been on my side.

There is more where I could compare and contrast with your situation Velika but i think I will save that for a PM.