[Albatross]

On one extreme is codependent narcissist (inverted narcissist) on other extreme is counter codependent narcissist. Those extremes are pathological, maladaptive. Those people have huge ego, ego per se is complex and it is defensive. Those people make huge wall around inner ego and rest of ego - persona. They do not like own inner ego which is weak, pathetic, scared, that inner ego is fragile and live in constant fear, obligation and guilt. Those people are traumatized in childhood and they reject inner self and identify with persona. Majority of normal people identify with inner ego, narcissist no, they identify with persona.

All other people suits in spectrum between those two extremes. For example someone who is well balanced, healthy, ideal human being is at the middle of that spectrum. Thea are moderately codependent and moderately counter codependent and their narcissism is healthy. Also their persona is not so different than rest of ego, in other words, disparity between rest of ego and persona is very low, One feel as whole.

Also exists correlation with ego and subconsciousness, link between ego and subconsciousness is anima / animus - the soul. How much is important good communication between ego and subconsciousness also is important good communication rest of ego and persona. Everything is linked. Inner world - Shadow (subconsciousness) - Anima / Animus - rest of ego - persona - outer world.

If somewhere communication is bad or not existent there problems arrive.

Happy person is aligned on all levels. Means what One feels, thinks and speak is the same.

[HeartTattoo]

moment,

I have been troubled by your most recent post & have been mulling over a response to it & to the many good responses that followed, but here S&D has done it for me.

Despite the uncanny similarities in our MLCer's words & actions, we all had unique M's, so no one can dispute what you know about yourself, your H, & your M.  Some MLCer's are indeed narcissists & that is important to determine.  Mirror work would involve determining why you would want to fling yourself back into such a harmful R.  But most often here, at some stage, we all seem to believe our spouses ARE narcissists, not just behaving like one, because we see no other explanation.

The MC H & I saw (briefly together/much longer for me) quickly identified my H's actions as an addiction & also quickly determined that my H was not a narcissist.  He later explained to me that addicts (& I believe MLCer's) behave like narcissists--they lose their conscience, they lose empathy, they are completely selfish.  In the language of MLC, as S&D says, these are the actions of the Shadow.  In the language of addiction, these are the actions of the Inner Addict.  The true self is overwhelmed & this is the struggle of those in crisis.

I have no doubt that I love my H & always will.  That is my feeling, but also my choice.  I don't believe he will ever heal if he does not acknowledge & feel the pain he has inflicted on others.  My desire for this comes from my love & yes, also from a desire for justice, but not from a place of revenge.  I don't want my H to feel pain & remain in pain; I want him to move through it & to a place of healing.

I also believe that my H loved me, although at one point I asked my IC if I was just his first addiction.  The brokenness inflicted by his FOO has led him to seek external sources of "happiness" all through his life.  I see this as the source of his tendency toward selfishness throughout our lives.  But a man does not work hard to provide for his family all of his life, live a faithful M for over 30 years, & enjoy mutual interests in a relaxed & comfortable way with his spouse for decades without love.  He has mistaken his depression & the distraction of an OW's adoration/infatuation as indications that he has "been unhappy in our M" for over half of our 40 years together. 

I have said at times that I hate the OW, that I will never forgive her, but truly I don't waste that much energy on her.  I wish her to no longer be a factor in my family's life, but beyond that I don't care one bit what is to become of her.  That has nothing to do with me.

[a]

LL and Peevee - Your words - my thoughts.  I could not have said it any better!!!

And maybe I should clarify my words when I question this thing we call love because my understanding of love will be different to anyone else's.  To me love has no opposite not even hate is the opposite to love and maybe what I mean by love is the ultimate compassion, as LL said grace and empathy. LOVE IS AN ACTION NOT AN EMOTION. Me wanting ex to suffer (I need to qualify this is an old feeling and no longer rears its head that often, only in times when I am in a bad place) does bring the idea of my capacity to love into question.  Do I care about ex yes, do I want harm to come to him ABSOLUTELY NOT - this is why I never took my revenge - which I could have as I had evidence of ex cheating on ow1 I could have sent it to her anonymously she would never have known it was me because by then I was way out of the picture - I never took this path because I did not want to carry the guilt and remorse of what would have happened - major pain and humiliation for ex and he certainly would not have married her.  Does this mean I have empathy for ex in some way yes but do I love him - NO??? because there is a part of me, however small, that wants justice.  And for me wanting justice is not loving.

For me love is far greater than any egoic need - like the need for justice.  I rehabilitate injured and sick birds and some of them take several months to come right.  I develop quite an affection for their quirky "personalities" but when it is time to release them I do it gladly.  I know that giving of my time to these birds is based on the true sense of LOVE - I have no expectation from them at all - I do not expect gratitude, I do not expect love or compassion in return. Yet in my very human way I cannot offer the same to the people in my life - their is an expectation of some kind of reciprocation and ex was no exception.  In fact with him there is a greater expectation that he show compassion and empathy simply because we shared an intimacy that I have not shared with anyone else and we vowed to be there for each other in the good and bad times.  So then I guess intimacy obscures our ability to really extend love when sh$^$&t hits the fan. 

As for rewriting history - I have with clarity of thought really considered my marriage without clouding it with my pain.  There were many things I allowed which at the time I didn't realise because I was blinded by "love".  My ex always needed the luxuries and like Peevee I was a prop to his life - I did without so he could do with.  I remember when ex and I were two years into dating and I invited him to my graduation ceremony he did not attend because he had a business appointment, an appointment that could easily be rescheduled.  At the time I was hurt but I don't tend to hold grudges and we moved on - in retrospect I now realise that while ex was proud that he was dating an educated woman (he at the time only had a school leaving certificate - after he met me he started studying towards a degree - I am not sure he would have done so if I had not had a degree) and he could show me off to his family and acquaintances - he could not bring himself to celebrate in my achievement.  This kind of behaviour came to define our marriage.  He drove the luxury cars I drove the cheap unassuming car - this is what he needed to feel I guess validated.  So yes I am the luckier of the two because I have come from a family that cares about each other and we hold each other up in the bad times.  He, unfortunately,  came from a family that only saw the use in others.

I digress at the end of the day - I guess I am trying to come to terms with my shadows and am trying to take an honest look at myself and my need for justice, my need to ex to suffer heartbreak - and that is why I question my ability to love in the true sense of what I think this condition called love is. While it is a high ideal I wonder if the day will ever come that within the limitations of my human condition I will be able to truly let go and be at peace no matter what life throws at me- like Pema Chodron.

[paradigmshift]

For me, it's not about justice. As I've had always told him, there's no point in apologising. What's done is done. You can patch back a broken vase, but it will still always have been broken. What's important is to not repeat the same mistake. I guess I'm waiting for him to understand this, and to be able to finally recognise and acknowledge what truly matters in life.

The opposite of love is indifference.   

[in it]

Moment your posts remind me of the relationship I was in. It was all about image and how things looked with him. What I could do for him. Not who I was. My achievement's or things that I did.

He wrote a couple of books once and even failed to mention me in the forward for helping him. I didn't even realize he didn't. He fixed it in the second printing.

 I was a prop in his movie..not my own person.

I remember a car situation.( this was after he had inherited a substantial amount of money) I was driving a huge old black blazer and the window motors were broken so I couldn't roll them down in the summer. The girls were small so I didn't go many places as we got too hot going too far from home.

I found another car locally. He was working and driving a brand new car.

The girls and I went to look at the car I found. I called him and told him about the car. After work he did go look at it and bought it. It was 1100.00.

The girls and I were so excited about it.

He did make the comment to me.

"I think I neglected my family"...uh yeah you might say so. He had a new car with air conditioning so he was all set ..Not. One. Single. Thought. in our direction.

As far as the ex suffering heartbreak? I don't think it's possible. The ex feels no love therefore cannot experience loss. Maybe loss of control- but no depth of emotion.Other than inflicting his own misery on others. He has no investment in relationships. People are just something to manipulate for him.

He and the exow deserved each other. It's too bad it didn't work out for them.

Moment I think that's wonderful work you are doing with the birds!

[Thunder]

moment,

My first X was exactly like that.  Always "new" everything for him.  He was a user of people his whole life.
When he found his ow she was JUST like him.  Very materialistic and selfish. They didn't last of course, too much competition there.  : )

When I think about him now, years later, I see he didn't like himself and was very insecure.  Things made him important.

[a]

In it - yes i think we married the same type of person my ex married ow1 i think in part because she does make him look good.  I have to give it to her she has a very good sense of style and mostly wears designer clothes - they also married in one of the most expensive hotels in this country - a hotel frequented by people like Prince Albert of Monaco - in fact he honeymooned at this hotel.  Friends who have seen the wedding photos say that they looked posed and they have made sure that in many of the photos the name of the hotel is seen in the background - almost as if to show off to people what a stylish upper class wedding they had.  It is such a far cry from our wedding which was a simple country affair.  I guess ow1 has provided ex with the required elevated status level that makes him feel important.  Funny thing is while they have bought class they are not necessarily classy - she is the kind of woman that thinks nothing of sending graphic pictures of her privates to a married man 3 months into knowing him.  In fact may of the women ex was meeting did this but then again he was meeting these women on websites that catered for sex, affairs and one night stands!!!! To me this is not dignified behaviour - but anyway each to his or rather her own.  And yes i am being judgemental - another egoic flaw!!!

Thunder - yes ex is very materialistic and you are right it probably does stem from lack of self worth but does this excuse callous behaviour. 

I guess at the end of the day i should consider myself blessed and focus on that.  I have people in my life who care for me and accept me warts and all.  People who accept me not for what i can give them materially - which is not much- but just enjoy being in my company as i enjoy being in theirs.  I would hate it if the only way i could feel worthy is through material things - it would make me feel empty - very empty.  And maybe that's the gist of the emptiness that ex may feel and maybe that's why this void is never filled not matter how much money he spends or how sophisticated and glamorous he shows himself to be.  I guess in the end i was a good enough prop for 21 years until he changed jobs and in this new corporate environment i no longer was a good enough prop.  He now needed a new image one that comes in a designer package and is 14 years younger!!!  Sad really.  Although for ex and ow1 they probably don't see it from this perspective and are blissfully happy in their perspective whatever that may be.