[Anjae]

HB, Thanks to your reply. Thing is, I do not have a single contact with husband (except if I have to phone or mail him about taxes/legal stuff). Until a 3 months ago I could, If I wanted, talk to him on gmail chat (something I never did except for the reason mentioned above). Now I can no longer do that. Why? Because I had to ask him for a paperwork thing that he was not providing. I said “So, is there something you have to tell me?” He did not answer, closed the chat and blocked me. I did not try to ask why.

But the clothes thing…from the times we would still talk, during OW1, sometimes we would talk on the gmail chat. He had a photo of himself there, with a very juvenile jumper. At the time, he was very enthusiastic with it, telling me “see my new photo? I love that new jumper, my favourite:”, me “it is to juvenile to you. It is ok but for a younger person”., he “ah! But X, his older than I am and also has one”, me “OK, I still don’t like it on you. I prefer you with shirts.” Can’t remember what we said next, it was over 3.5 years ago. But he left that photo on his gmail chat. It was there 3 months ago when he blocked me.

The public photos that I get to see are either on my FB, my SIL is there, so I see all she posts or tags, and she does tag her brother a lot, or in venues and cultural places that I still subscribe to. I don’t get to see the last ones because its husband, I see the photos from whatever/whomever is there. Needless to say that, in all is public appearances photos, OW2 is there, making sure she is tagged or named, always with a huge smile to the camera. In fact, looks like all she wants is the camera and to be on the picture. Better, always looks like she is stealing the photo from him. She is, pretty much, the centre of the universe in their pictures.

So, even if the man is a vanisher, and considering he may not know to what venues/cultural things I subscribe, he knows I get to see the stuff SIL tags. Meaning, I’ve notice all is dressing changes. And the latter one is for the type of dressing that he knows I like to see him with. But, what sort of touch and go given that, since OW2 come along, we do not talk? And that he has even blocked on gmail chat (must say it was weird all those years, if I was there, which was rare, to have him available but not talk to him). Would he be excepting me to notice and told him? Given I never had and the only thing I approached him on gmail for was to talk paperwork, he thought, she does not notice?...Even if so, he still keeps dressing on the mode adult classy way I like.

No hair or facial hair change. He always had those the same way. Other change I notice, again, through my SIL and some mutual friends FB, is taste in music. Or better, he started incorporated the stuff he used to like into all that dance music he had got himself into. That dance/party music thing had gotten so far that some of our mutual FB friends, were even tolding him off, no able to put up with his techno stuff. Now they say, “good to see you coming back to the stuff you’ve always enjoyed”.

And one more change, even if OW2 is still in all husbands public appearances photos, their body language, their closeness has changed, his look of “I’m infatuated with you” is gone”. And no, I’m not seeing what I want to see. There are changes. No idea what they really mean. He still has that second court case against me running, he blocked on gmail, there is no way I’m gonna get in touch with him to comment about any of the stuff I notice. And, last but not least, he always looked pretty drunk in the public appearances photos. Not so much since he started to dress classy and sharp again.

I don’t have any other way, for the time being, except public appearances photos and comments he may place in my SIL or mutual FB to see flashes of the old he. But those, the return of the classy smart clothes and old music tastes, are flashes of his old self. So far nothing I can see as the new self. Everything else, from his legal cases against me, from his continuous refusal to pay alimony, to public parade OW2, always be photographed in parties and social events, and still be king of the night life, look alike.

OK, there is one think I did that may had made him be scared of get in touch, even if the wants to. That was after the blocked me on gmail. A month of so after. I wrote in a letter. Pretty much a farewell one. It was not pointing fingers, just saying that I was done and that, the time has come for I to say what I needed to be said. Pretty much that, legal stuff should be left to those that were dealing with it, that those 20 years together had been great but I was moving forward. That I keep no resentment from him. That I had for him the affection a person has for an old friend that has taken the wrong path. That I did not though our paths were going to meet again, just would not say never, because one never knows. I did not called him my darling, but my dear and did not signed with love or kisses, just my name. No, I was not trying to make him feel bad or "OH, I need to go back because, otherwise, she is gone". Somehow I just needed to do it.

OK; HB, go ahead and pull my ears, and say, now you’re screw it and send him back to the tunnel and OW2. Maybe. But, if so, frankly, I don’t really care. At that point it was important for me to write, and send, the letter. It was a turning point for me. He did not replied, I was not expecting to do so. He did, however, when I informed him, a couple of weeks past the letter (we inform each other if a relative or pet passes away) that one of my uncles had passed away, send his sentiments to the family right after receiving my text.

So, HB, where is this man heading? I would say that, and I may be very, very wrong, he may be done with the crisis within a year, a year and a half. And that replay may end sooner than that. I’m only guessing here, of course.

Ah! That of not considering themselves married, unlike a normal WS or a married person that has an affair is very much so. My husband, as soon as he an OW1 went public, changed in social networks state from married to in a relationship. When OW1 was no more to single and, with OW2 again to in a relationship. And, of course, he can see nothing wrong with it. He had left! He is no longer married. Well, he is right, now he is no longer married, except on paper.

True, marriage is also a state of mind. I felt married for years after husband left and its been a while since I don’t feel married anymore. Ironically, even if I think that, I sense that, now, the end of the crisis is nor that far away. We’ve been on this for longer than we still have to be.

Weird, isn’t it? Or is this normal, HB? Does the LBS needs to feel not married in order to move to the next step, with or without the spouse?

And where does this leaves the all divorce story? Exactly in the same place. Right now there no reason for I to have any change towards that.

[kikki]

HB - I too love reading anything that you write.  I always get so much out of it, and something more sinks in, each time I read it.

Something that has been puzzling me though is this.  I know we all learnt behaviours that need to be changed and worked on for a better relationship in the future - but not all of us had abusive childhoods that we need to heal from.
I feel pretty fortunate, in that I was lucky to have a secure and loving childhood.  Not perfect, but pretty great all the same.

Some of us need to heal more past damage for ourselves, and I guess the rest of us need to work out how not to be the 'fixers' that most of us are.

I'm not sure that I needed my H's crisis to make the other changes in me???  Him transitioning would have been enough.  I think we do this as we all grow up and have our life experiences.  I would like to think we are designed to do this without this rubbish heap thrown at us - but maybe I am wrong??? 

[HeartsBlessing]

Hello B!

An eloquent and heartfelt view or MLC which simply puts this nightmare into a real life perspective ..
going through this and winning doesn't mean you and your MLCer reunite - it means you see and find and use the strength inside yourself to find your inner equilibrium, well that is how I see it !!
I do feel that this has made me a better person ... and also in control of my life - I am different but the same - I have my own mind back -being married engulfs you and it shouldn't - my fault I let it! When i started to try and change what I had let be created the issues started maybe my transition ?? But it maybe pushed my H into his crisis ... who knows maybe I will never but I hope my H is happy one day and a good father again - he is trying and I see his progress very clearly ...
Nothing so major to up-date on just slow changes for the better then a slip backwards then a leap forward then back on the hamsters wheel again ............

Look at it this way; the slower he navigates, the more likely he will get all of his issues faced, resolved, settled and healed; and this gives you MORE time to get yourself and your journey finished.

We know from my own experience what happens when they come through too quickly and miss an issue; but then again; I was a pretty slow processor when it was me; as it took me a long time; but I got all mine the first time around.

You know one spouse CAN trigger another in; my husband's MLC triggered MINE; and B, you very possibly could have triggered your husband into his.

Change in one spouse always brings change in the other; it's like a domino effect within a relationship, regardless of what kind it is....I mean, changes in the way children relate to the parents brings about a change in the relationship between.  Even changes in one of the people involved in a friendship brings about changes in the other person involved.

And these things take time and consistency to accomplish.

When you first begin to change; it passes with little or no notice; but when the changes becomes more repetitive and consistent; and shows you as being "out of character" this gets the MLC'er's attention.
They may be puzzled at first; then try to influence you "back" into the "old" they knew was "tried and true" behavior within your that had so often fed their justifications.  When that doesn't work, anger comes forward; because you've become strange to them...and the anger is designed as an intimidating force.   This is the true test of your change, when you can outlast the anger and go for the gold...which is the MLC'er having to figure out HOW to change in order to relate to the "new" you they see.

It might take several consistent behaviors before their attention is gotten; but rest assured; whether it is one or several changes they are facing; they'll have to sit up and take notice....nothing is working for them as it was before.

My husband, for example was used to me being completely transparent about what I was doing; while he was hiding himself; and his doings.   I started playing my cards closer to the vest, and staying quiet, stopped talking so much.   I started also at the same time treating him like a friend that I hardly knew.  I was polite, nice to a certain extent; but I wasn't talking to him much at all.

I got strange looks at first; then he started up, like I had been "told" he would..this was new territory for me at that time. 

Curious, he started asking me was I sick, was I OK, was something wrong, was I mad....I answered his questions with yes and no answers, but didn't volunteer anything else.    After a period of time; he started getting worried, because I was being distant, although consistently polite to him, LOL!
I probably shouldn't have messed with him; but I started to also wear my hair in different ways; he never knew that I was making sure my long hair was up and out of the way AT WORK...but I left home with it down, and came home with it down.

I was a cute little thing; especially after I'd lost over 20 lbs; and I still looked like a teenager at 34; and I could tell he was really worried; but said nothing for over two weeks.  But, then, I said nothing, either; just came and went as I pleased, just like HE was doing.

After two weeks of digging to see if he could get me to spill; he then accused me of seeing somebody else, LOL...I had never laughed so hard in my life at him...and that made him mad.

Of course, he expected ME to get mad back, but I didn't, another change that threw him, I just kept laughing, and reminded him I was MARRIED, and married people didn't see other people while married.  I sort of expected him to start spewing at me; but he just turned back to the sink, and started washing dishes again...he was doing ALOT of cleaning at that time; most especially of the kitchen, and you know, I never figured out WHY it was the kitchen.

Some MLC'ers I read,  would constantly clean bathrooms, or laundry rooms, the upright freezers, refrigerators, or even  clean the entire house;  right down to washing the walls, but my husband stuck himself in the kitchen, and cleaned it from top to bottom, then started all over again...this was OCD behavior I was seeing in him brought on by heavy guilt.

And you know I wasn't helping matters by changing to unbalance him further within himself during his crisis.

Yet, this made him THINK more deeply about what he was doing during this first bout of crisis; and I remembered him saying later that he became frightened that he would lose me; I was metaphorically turning my back on him; wouldn't speak to him unless he spoke to me first.  He would have to ask me questions that brought on one word answers, and nothing further...and it frustrated him to NO end....and I cannot say how that forced him to look inward in that aspect, but it did.

I didn't know at that time, I just knew it was the right thing to do.  That aspect of staying quiet has remained to a certain extent, as I stay quiet to give him room to talk to me....sometimes the silence scares him; and he'll ask me if I'm OK...I do remind him I'm trying to give him room to start a conversation if he chooses.

If he gets mad; I don't get mad back; another change in me.  I just let him spin out, then ask him if he's finished getting mad.  This actually worked well during the crisis; when he would start spewing all kind of of crap.   I would just listen, not try to correct or even judge what he was saying; and when he was finished, I'd ask him if he felt better.   

I said many times that right or wrong, he had a right to how he felt; and one time, I got so tired of hearing him spew about my supposed shortcomings that I jumped in there and started agreeing  with everything he said only to hear him start arguing the OTHER direction IN my favor, LOL!!
I never fell over in shock when that happened.

I didn't do that but one time; but it told me how easily a MLC'er could change direction in their rants, spews and confusion.  The anger within them, however, really does need to burn out; and the only way to bring it all out, is to listen to them rant until they have spewed it ALL out of them, and there's nothing left.
He got it ALL out during his first crisis; but the anger of the 7 year old during his second bout of crisis continued on and on and on...and I cannot say for sure if that child ever released all of negative emotion he held within him.

I'm hoping he did, in spite of the fact I did NOT like him at all; no kidding, and he did NOT like me, either, LOL!  He didn't like our son any more than he liked me; but Son managed to do MORE with him than I was able to do in the way of breaking cycles, and "making him mind".  Maybe the anger got spewed all over our son...I never thought to ask him about that aspect. 

And lookee here, I just derailed myself. LOL!!!

But you get the idea of changing yourself; when you know certain behaviors are guaranteed to cause them to spew, or feeds their justification; change them to something else that will throw the MLC'er off guard.  If you like the change, KEEP it; if not, the "old" will return given time.

Now, on me, very little "old" is present; the major changes I made in me was staying calm in the face of conflict when I would threw tantrums before(and these are immature behaviors), I negotiate when before I would literally demand, I let go of more than I ever let go of in my life; and I truly recognized the need I'd had to "fix and control"....and while I ask him if he needs help, I actually see what it is he's doing BEFORE I offer my help. 
I'm more apt to back off, and allow him room to figure it out on his own.

He's more apt to wait until he knows he really CAN'T do something before he calls me for help; and this is NEW with him.  There are various things he honestly CANNOT do; and these I have no trouble helping him with, or even doing for him.   There are other things I really can't do; and so I call upon him for help, and he WILL pitch right in and help me; where he would NOT have done that before.

He called me today to see if I minded watching the load board for awhile; he had finally gotten very  frustrated, couldn't find a load; and the loads he'd gotten earlier kept cancelling; and that IS frustrating.  He was driving; so I took over watching for him; called him with a couple that he decided NOT to take; I didn't get impatient with him..he IS, after all, the one who has to deal once the load is booked; and his decisions are respected by me.   I'd kept watching; then the phone rang; and it was him; but somehow I'd known he would get a load, and he did, indeed, have one.   

He thanked me kindly for taking over for him for awhile; apologized for the trouble he was putting me to; ah, shoot, that was all right, I wasn't going anywhere anyway; so, I was fine with that.

But the point is he ASKED me, he did not "tell" me like he would have before his first crisis.   He will make suggestions, and sometimes he will raise the issue that I don't always take his advice; but then I remind him that he doesn't always take MINE either.

If it's something I don't want to do, I will say no, and stand on it; and he's the same way.   We don't "bully" each other...it is a level of respect we have come to in this life post crisis; and we seem to be balanced pretty well, no one is "above" the other. 

Everything is open for discussion; and I find we are agreeing to disagree if we can't get on the same page about various things we feel differently about more than we ever had before the crisis came about.  Before, he would throw a literal fit to get his way(he was not any different in this aspect than I had been before his crisis), now, he just listens, speaks his mind, and takes whatever I decide as fine with him; and it's the same for me.

We have our weaknesses, and our strengths; and I take over for his weaknesses, and he takes over for mine...now, don't start laughing, LOL, I have weaknesses, too.  I can figure out some things; but some things, I have NO clue; and so I ask him about what I don't understand; especially if it's mechanical or something of that nature.
Aw, now, SOME things I suppose I COULD figure out; but that wouldn't leave him much to help me with, LOL!!

He's good about letting me know about weather in a certain place he knows I'm going to; and I'm good at digging him out using Google Maps IF he gets lost, and this DOES happen, sometimes, EVEN with a GPS...that dang thing might lead you into the woods, if you don't watch it, LOL!!

The point is we've become a team that really does work together with each other.  We have our times of problems, but we solve them together...and this new marriage is honestly MUCH different than the old one was.
I don't find myself problem solving on my own much at all; he really IS there to help me; and I can use all the help I can get. LOL!!

[Trustandlove]

Look at it this way; the slower he navigates, the more likely he will get all of his issues faced, resolved, settled and healed; and this gives you MORE time to get yourself and your journey finished. 

Well, I sure hope this is true....  my H takes the prize for moving slowly.....   

[Bewildered]

HB
I agree with your behaviour regarding being different towards your H,

treating him like a friend that I hardly knew.  I was polite, nice to a certain extent; but I wasn't talking to him much at all.

My H and I had a meal a few months ago and I acted like you described above - he talked for 5 hours virtually non stop - asked all about me but let slip he knows a lot about me  - where I am working , what( project) on etc (he even admitted checking out the city I was working in??) and didn't seem to mind when I asked him 'why did you cycle around X city' he said, because you are working there?

other things he is doing are small and subtle messages via kids and others that mean something to me and him but are undetected by others ...  yet he still seems to be running - keeps his life full on busy - would and does accept the invite to the opening of anything, now go's for walks - new behaviour - less cycling (on a road bike).  He is less augmentative and has been described by friends and work colleagues as 'gentle' and subdued in work situations - not the old him
He contacts me then runs again and I see less of the replay activities but then sometimes they are visible, but less full on .........

He seems to treat our D 21 as if she was me - her view, and she ignores his banter texts. I feel he is someone who is scared to say hey Im sorry about anything but recently apologised to D very quickly so that is good hey??

A friend told me last week, not seen him for 4 years to talk one to one with, that he thinks my H is having an Identity Crisis as he has been odd with him for the past 3 years (you don't say) but he thinks he is getting to grips with reality as he has seen changes but thinks he needs some talking too as it is affecting his work reputation? - they are on a project together - well it over to him, I said don't ask me to help (interfere) - he agreed I couldn't - will report if it makes any difference - not
 holding my breath .. other wise I would be dead !!!

Again great info HB and timely for us all

BX 

[crazyforhim]

TrustandLove- I'm with you on that one...my H is taking his sweet time!