[Anjae]

To me, having a vanisher has been bliss. It was hell when Mr J was a clinger.

There is often self-pity on HS, Nas. It would be strange it there wasn't.

All LBS wallow in self-pity for a while. At a point, unless new things keep coming up - and for some of us they do, we start to get on our feet. A good suggestion is to use Stayed's allocated wallowing time. After a certain point, Stayed reserved a certain time/amount of time a day to wallow.

No one is an expert/who is an expert and how did experts become experts?

RCR created HS after her husband's crisis. That was all her experiece and that is what made her an expert (even if RCR does not call herself an expert).

Conway wrote about his MLC and he is considered and expert. His experience was his MLC. What was HB experience? Her husband's crisis and her own crisis.

What prevents any of us from writing a book, starting a website/forum and be a MLC expert? Nothing apart not wanting to.

If no one was an expert/had more knowledge there would be no way to help others. How would someone help a newbies of we didn't have the expertise and experience for it?

[sparklestar]

Hey I haven’t replied to these threads for a while now but have watched and read along. But I really wanted to in this latest subject because it’s one that I think about a lot.

For the question  of if/when do you fall out of love I think it’s a very tricky and confusing thing to answer. I’m only 2 years in to this but I know that the desperate feelings of clinging on to the idea of always being in love with my H left a while ago. I don’t love him I can’t because he doesn’t exist. I don’t know the person who exists now I don’t see him as the same as the person I knew. I look at old photos of us and I remember how I loved him but I also feel the pang of grief and loss because to me my H did die in a way. I don’t see the person that exists now as the same at all its almost as if they are two sepertw beings. And I have no love for the person that exists now. Maybe that makes me crazy but it’s just the way it is.

I have accepted that the person in those pictures has gone. I cannot answer how I would feel if my ex h turned up on the doorstep tomorrow.  I don’t know if any compassion for the person I once knew would be there. The way I feel about the person that exists now is strong and the past and the person in those pics is changed forever because I can’t erase what’s happened enough. That doesn’t mean I didn’t love him less than any other Lbs, I fought hard to ‘stand’ just reading my old threads baffles me that I can feel so different because I was steadfast in my belief that I would always love him.

And this brings me on to memories. I struggle with old memories because while I can recall them and I know that there are many happy ones they all now kind of mean nothing. I don’t need to convince myself they were real I know they were but what’s happened since has rubbished them all. I can’t and won’t sit and reminisce or talk about ‘good old times’ because in a way even though I KNOW they exist I can’t feel them because I just can’t get passed what’s happened.

Our emotions are complex and I think I was once naive in thinking that true love couldn’t be shaken but it can. I know how I once felt and I know how I do now. Yet that doesn’t change the hurt, it doesn’t change still feeling like you have lost or had your life stolen from you even if you don’t now want it back...

As for does it matter if it’s MLc or not with a vanisher - yes in the sense at least that’s a reason for this madness. I am just someone who has to try and have an answer or a reason for something. And this was all so utterly crazy that at least the idea of MLC (which believe me I have doubted many times over) makes some sense of it. And I still question the whys and the wherefores but try and make peace with the fact that I may not ever get the answers and that’s the most difficult part. I want to know if I’m ever thought about, whether my ex h regrets, whether he will one day ever admit it. I still want vindication and that’s hard but I hope that as time passes I  will care less about that too. 

[BrenM]

There is often self-pity on HS, Nas. It would be strange it there wasn't.

All LBS wallow in self-pity for a while. At a point, unless new things keep coming up - and for some of us they do, we start to get on our feet. A good suggestion is to use Stayed's allocated wallowing time. After a certain point, Stayed reserved a certain time/amount of time a day to wallow.

What a absolutely horrible uncompassionate statement!     This forum and in particular this Vanishers thread used to be a godsend for many offering support....is this not the case anymore? 

Anjae your posts (on various threads) of recent have been very "attacking" and enforcing your opinions to many posters...unsure what is going on, but it is not what this forum is about and is definitely not your usual style?

Yes you may be an expert for your situation, but like what is constantly repeated on HS is that every case is different...whilst script remains similar timeframes do not. 

I am sorry Anjae but your comment is totally so wrong.  Self pity....if only I had time to wallow in self pity when raising 4 kids alone.  I am pretty sure that RCR would be horrified by your statement like no doubt many followers of this Vanishers thread. 

[bluerose]

     I dont think Anjae meant what she said in a mean way.  I think the point that she was trying to make was that we all on here pity ourselves at one point or another. Some of us longer than others and sometimes when new things happen with these mlcers its hard not to fall back into that self pity. I know that i have. Its hard not to think " why is this happening to me".  I also think that Anjae was talking about how not to wallow in the self pity for a long time because its not good for any of us to do. I could be wrong but thats how i read it. We have all been through hell with mlc wether we have a vanisher or a clinger or whatever else is out there and i think the hurt and sensitivity of our emotions are very overwhelming at times. When we come here to vent its because we know that everyone understands what we are feeling. We dont have to convince anyone that this is real because it is. And we all know it. We all have our opinions and how we interpret them.
      Bren, from reading what you have been through i understand the hell you have been through. My situation did not happen exactly the way yours did but i understand. My heart goes out to you. I hope your not upset.

     For the question of when do you fall out of love with them. Its different for everyone. Some never will stop loving them. For me, it was dead at about the 3 year mark. I think it may have even been sooner but i was terrified if having no feelings for him that i held onto it tighter and longer than i should have. He doesnt deserve my love anymore. He killed it long ago when he chose to lay with another. I will not ever begin to forgive him for all that he has done to my kids (and continues to do) and to me. There is nothing he can do to fix it ever. The memories and love that i had for him i have chosen to let go of and forget. It is making the pain go away.  I have however questioned if i ever really loved him. I cant answer that question because i dont know. It does feel like i am not divorced but a widow. My grieving over that loss is done but my grief for my kids is still there. It will be as long as he keeps continuing to hurt them.

[Treasur]

Anjae's tone might have come across as a bit harsh (and certainly few of us ghosted by vanishers or trying to deal with divorces from vanishers would describe it as bliss  ) but there is a balancing point between self-pity (which tended to make me feel more like a victim) and self-compassion (which feels more accepting and constructive).

As others say, the detail of our experiences may vary around some of the common script stuff and how we recover individually - and how long that takes - will vary too. And our perspective on others' experiences is naturally shaded by our own. But our self-pity is often a desparate search to feel heard and to receive the kind of empathy that is so thin on the ground from our spouses and others in RL....maybe it lasts until we feel heard enough or find our feet in the quicksand or until we are no longer under active attack from the situation?

I know that I felt like less of a victim when I was no longer exposed to the exhaustion of an MLC divorce or nasty anonymous notes...but sometimes I did feel pretty sorry for myself coming back from seeing my mother rage at me thinking I was the devil to an 'anonymous' note telling me that I was an ugly, old hag who had stopped my h finding his now true soulmate happiness or a piece of legal irrational 180 by my xh or happy snaps of their wedding while I was worrying about being homeless life didn't feel very fair and I had no one else but me to say 'you poor thing, how unfair and s$it is that because you don't deserve it'! So, I'll own my self pity as part of the process of being abused for reasons I can't comprehend by someone who used to love me and who I trusted.  But it is true that we reach a point where the self pity doesn't do much and we stretch out for other feelings and actions that help more.

My own 'thin skin point' now is probably about my impatience and self-blame for having got stuck and still feeling not me and not normal after 3 bloody years...which is my issue to make peace with...but probably makes me a bit over sensitive to anything that sounds like a 'stop whining and get over it' message from someone else. ...which is absolutely only my circus and my monkeys lol.

[Anjae]

     I dont think Anjae meant what she said in a mean way.  I think the point that she was trying to make was that we all on here pity ourselves at one point or another. Some of us longer than others and sometimes when new things happen with these mlcers its hard not to fall back into that self pity. I know that i have. Its hard not to think " why is this happening to me".  I also think that Anjae was talking about how not to wallow in the self pity for a long time because its not good for any of us to do. I could be wrong but thats how i read it.

This. I have a vanisher and have had for a long time. As for Stayed's and her, at a point, giving herself a portion of time a day to wallow, it is an old, well known thing on HS that has been around since HS started.

Anyone who knows my story knows it was hell with my MCLer, physical violence included. However, a times comes, and that time is different for all of us, when all that will not be felt the way it was early on.

You all need to have in mind that Mr J left 12 years ago, I no longer have the raw pains of BD/early times. Just like when HS started RCR and Stayed were reconcilled and no longer had BD/early times pains.

I also had a MLCer that at first, and for a few years, was a clinger. It was hell when Mr J was a clinger. He was (still is) a very angry, nasty MLCer. Much better when there is no contact from him. I was clear to say to me it was bliss to have a vanisher, not it is bliss for everyone.

My own 'thin skin point' now is probably about my impatience and self-blame for having got stuck and still feeling not me and not normal after 3 bloody years...which is my issue to make peace with...but probably makes me a bit over sensitive to anything that sounds like a 'stop whining and get over it' message from someone else.

It is normal to still be "stuck" after 3 years and still not fell like ouslves. Especially when things keep coming at us. Eveyrone will move at their pace, but Stayed's ideias, like the a special time to wallow a day after a certain point in our jouney, or the rule of 3, 3 minutes, three hous, 3 days, 3 weeks, 3 months, before we do things (aside from an emergency) and the rubber band on the wrist to be pulled when we are about to do something "crazy"/less wise are goo ideas and have been used by many.

[Not Applicable]

Treasur, we have all lost our marriage and spouse - except for those reconnecting and reconciled - but some of us have lost far more tha n that. You are not one of those. You have money for a house, a good life, a good job, etc. You were not physically hurt. Your mids were not taken from you/turned agains you.

Maybe you should try to put things in perspective and think/see that others have/had it far worse than you.

Anjae-For many of us, the MLC experience is the worst thing that has ever happened to us in our lives. So really what does it matter that someone else might (subjectively in your opinion) have it worse? We only live our own lives, not those of others.

I have chosen to not tell my entire story publicly in this forum. Why? Because I know probably 98% of you would not actually put up with the situation I am in nor even be able to relate to it and many would pass moral judgment as well, and I would be constantly subjected to people telling me I should just end my stand and I would have to spend most of my time defending why I choose to stand. I wouldn't be surprised if others thought my H deserved the worst MLCer of the year award if they knew all that has happened but for me personally, there are other LBSes I would not want to trade places with either.

I would suspect there are a lot of people on here who don't tell the whole story of what has happened to them because they know they would be subjected to judgmental attitudes about the spouses they choose to stand for if they told the whole story here. I think in some cases what is going on is far worse than what people let on.

It's all subjective who has it "worse" but really we all are suffering our own personal hell. Yeah, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes, or Nas' shoes, or Treasur's shoes or anyone else's shoes here. But you know what, I don't want to be in the shoes I am in now either!

[Helpingme!]

I don't think anybody can compare their pain and loss.
What is bad to some may not be as bad to others.
Point plain and simple is we all are hurting. We all have lost.
Worst thing possible is for us(LBS) to down another LBS!!!!
Why!!!!!!
I feel for every single person on this site!!!!!
PERIOD!!!!!!!

[Anjae]

Goner,  if having a live-in MLCer is horrible, one can always ask the live in MLCer to leave. Or leave. Or divorce the MLCer. I have always said that if Mr J had not left I would ask him to. There is no having OW and living with me. Some LBS manage to tolerate such situation, others do not.

The truth is, Goner, some of us suffered things others didn't. Hide it would be absurd. There is no point in pretending things are/were one way if they are not.

What would be the point of I, Savy, LP, In It and others to hide our MLCes were physically abusive?

I have chosen to not tell my entire story publicly in this forum. Why? Because I know probably 98% of you would not actually put up with the situation I am in nor even be able to relate to it and many would pass moral judgment as well, and I would be constantly subjected to people telling me I should just end my stand and I would have to spend most of my time defending why I choose to stand.

That is your choice. We can only go by what people write. If they decide to leave out some things, we cannot have those things as factors to the person's situation. We are not mind readers.

I would suspect there are a lot of people on here who don't tell the whole story of what has happened to them because they know they would be subjected to judgmental attitudes about the spouses they choose to stand for if they told the whole story here. I think in some cases what is going on is far worse than what people let on.

Maybe. That is those people's choice. Again, we can only go by what is writen. If people are hidding information they may be doing themselves a disservice, since we can not advice accordingly. We may even be giving totally wrong advice for the situation. But since we only have what has been written, that is all we can use.

Not even HB advices LBS to stay with a physically abusive MLCer. No one would.

Help, some MLCers are worst than  others, some LBS had if worst than others. It is a fact.

I would love a nice, financial responsible MLCer. I have a horrible, physically abusive, nasty one. Of course a nice, financial responsible one is better than a nasty physically abusive one.

Trying to level everything does not make sense. Wonder why several of you are so unconfortable with the fact that some MLCers are beyond the pale and have done, or are still doing, truly horrible things.

I am not talking about people hurting, I am talking of actions/things they have done.

I feel for every single person on this site!!!!!
PERIOD!!!!!!!

That is different than thinking everyone has it the same good or bad. We don't. And different situations required different ways of dealing with the MLCer and different advice for the LBS.

[Not Applicable]

Surveys show that in most countries approximately 30% of women suffer violence at the hand of intimate partners.

I would say that far fewer than 30% of female LBSes on here have revealed that they have been abused, either by their current partner or previous ones. Even maybe 15-20% of men are abused by partners according to surveys. So that tells me it is highly likely there are many many LBS on here who aren't being completely forthright in this regard.

Why would they hide it? That's probably an individual matter so I can't speak for others. I would hazard a guess that they love their spouses and think that physical abuse is something that is tolerable and perhaps in their family or culture it is considered normal, maybe they even believe they deserve it, and they may not want anyone harping at them for not leaving their spouses for something that to them is acceptable.

But that's just a guess. We will never really know because if someone isn't revealing this about themselves, they also aren't going to say why they aren't telling us.