[Treasur]

This is an invitation to contributions from:
- those currently at the 3-4 year post BD stage
- those past that point who can still remember the 3-4 year mark. 

Of course, anyone else is welcome but i am hoping to create a little 3-4 year snapshot.
Why?

1. I think HS does two things really well. It helps us see that we are normal and broadly speaking sane even in an abnormal situation. And it helps us find hope even if the things we hope for evolve. That there is a life and positive things worth having after we survive the worst of times including even if there is no reconciliation.

2. An HS vet told me that the LBS story is like the tortoise and the hare. The MLCer seems to race off into their new 'happy' life while we are dragging ourselves through the rubble of the old one. But that there seems to be a pattern, not always but often, that the 3-4 year point is when the LBS starts to see the fruits of their hard work and the MLCers starts to be effected by the practical consequences of their choices....so the tortoise and hare change places in a way.

3. There seems to be a pattern too or maybe a belief, again not always but sometimes, that the behaviour and perspective of the MLCer starts to shift around the 3-4 year mark. Not necessarily towards even reconnection, but there is some kind of dawning of reality and an easing of big Replay stuff...even though some of course will dash back in or simply stew in their own mess. Prompted too by recent posts from the sister of an LBS which seems to fit this timescale. So, perhaps this thread can also add a snippet to our shared learning and for folks who come along later about later stages for both LBS and MLCer.

Anyway, I have seen this marker mentioned often enough that I thought it was worth taking a shared snapshot. And selfishly it is where I am and I'd find it useful to see how that stacks up against where others are/were. Obviously with the caveat that our individual situations might also be quite different. Anyone else want to play?

Perhaps a few bullet points on:
- where you are/were as the LBS, the progress you've made and what life is like at 3-4 years?
- any info you have on where the MLCer seems/seemed to be, anything that has/did change in their life or behaviour?

I will share my own snapshot later of course, but will leave this discussion for others to respond to first if they want. 

[sachat3]

I’m nowhere near the 3-4 year mark (only 18 months in) but I’ll read replies and get a feel for what to expect lol

[spock]

First couple of years post BD was a blur to me, I cried a LOT and literally forced myself out of my comfort zone - meeting new people, taking up new challenges, traveled on my own, bought my own car to name a few. I also worked a lot as it would distract me from thinking too much. Headspace wise, I am way better these days, but i do feel sad it has to be this way as a lot of people got hurt, friends were lost, resentment, regrets due to death of family members during the crisis. I remember the first year or so, i couldn't even sleep for 2 hours straight without waking up in a panic attack and crying, then going through his social media and cry even more! 

I read HS regularly and to think there are so many people out there like me makes me sad . I still have self confidence issues to deal with after going through the "trauma", and others had it worse than me! You all are so STRONG!

MLC'er on the other hand is crashing badly, seeing a therapist and been put on AD medication. We have always been in touch post separation and 'reconnecting' for the past 6 months, maybe longer, I am not too sure as I don't keep tabs on these things anymore. He's really struggling with the meds and I am ensuring the house is cleaned, has food in the fridge, checking in every few days and there's no suicidal tendencies which is my main concern. I think he's between Depression and Withdrawal stage, most friends made during his replay stage are gone or considered as a 'bad crowd' now. Also to note that we have had a few social gathering with our old friends together, those that have remained neutral during his crisis. Undoubtedly some friends have sided with me, and some with him - I refuse to hang out with them anymore and we are no longer friends on social media, why bother lol.

Either way, it has taken me a bloody long time to be where I am today. I still have my 'down' times and anxiety attacks every now and then, but I believe i made good progress for the past 3-4 years of this journey. It definitely takes time, be patient and a great support network is very important i believe, wouldn't make it without them!

[Nerissa]

My therapist has said I was ‘quite ill’ when I started seeing her and that was some time after bd and after I moved to my home country.  She said recently I am still traumatised but I won’t always be.

I am settling although it has taken a while.  I relied on friends a lot.  I’ve been helped by starting a university course, but I needed to be in a state where I could concentrate in order to do that.  I no longer awaken to a feeling of dread, although I can still get anxious..  I am more at peace than I have been for a long time.  I still have a lot of decisions to make but they no longer seem so worrying. 

I have had some lovely trips and short holidays or days out and appreciate my friends and children and family so much.  I have grown through having excellent therapy and will continue.  I am finding my centre again and often have a glow of gratitude and contentment that eluded me for a long time while I felt mostly fear, loss and dread.

I still spend too much time thinking about H.  My tutor - a psychoanalyst said recently they sometimes he tells clients who are in a bad relationship that he will not see them any more until they get out of it, because until they stop focusing on the relationship they are unable to do the deep analytic work he is trying to do.  I think it was a message!  I found  filing helped draw a line in the sand for me, and while I never wanted a divorce, when it is done and I have autonomy, I believe that it will give me a further shove forward, even though it isn’t an answer in itself.  For me,being married but separated keeps me in suspension and I am strong enough now to give that up I think, although I know I will be disturbed by the finality of divorce.

H is still in flight but realising some of what he has lost while his daughters grow into young adults and have little to do with him.  He is unhappy about this and says he hasn’t been happy over the past years.  He has said that I was right about high level Corporate life not suiting him and that he chased the wrong things in the wrong places. He feels he too had a breakdown.   He has offered to see me in counselling so we can be ‘friends’ post divorce.  The divorce has been going almost a year when it could have been wrapped up some months ago.    I’ve agreed to go but am not sure what to expect from him. 

I don’t think he is really ready for deep work but since I regressed rather in my conversations with him it is likely he did too so we shall see.    he still says he wants to heal people in Peru in retirement which I think is a fantasy and an avoidance of real life, but some people actually  do  wacky things I suppose.  He also still suggests he couldn’t come back because I was so shaming of him: he has a point but he wouldn’t stop his affair.  I’m not sure he is able to be fully accountable but given the destruction, I  suppose it isn’t too surprising. 

He is not suggesting he wants to reconcile and I have paused divorce but not stopped it while I see what he wants to discuss.  At the very least he wants to repair things with his daughters and with me to some degree.  It’s too soon for me to be friends and I wouldn’t want a friend who
Is still acting unconsciously in any case. I know he wasn’t always an idiot and I have faith he will improve but I think he needs support and he needs to want it.  It is a major achievement for me to be leaving him to decide for himself without offering unsolicited advice!

[Enyo]

BD for me was either September 2015 or December 2015 but whichever date you pick I am in the 3 to 4 year point.

Where you are / were as the LBS, the progress you’ve made and what life is like at 3-4 years?

For the first 8 months of 2016 H continued to live at home – this for me (and our sons) was hell on earth.  When he moved out life was calmer but I still hadn’t figured out what I was dealing with and spent the next 6 month still trying to get him to work with me on our marriage.  At that point I had a mental breakdown, I had to take nearly 3 months of work, during this time I just spent my time walking (and walking and walking) lost tons of weight (which sadly I have put back on!), I had supportive friends and family who realised that I had nothing to give so expected nothing from me but just let me know they were there if I needed them.  I am pretty sure my sons had me on suicide watch.

It was during this time that I found HS and started to distance myself from Hs crisis.  I stopped initiating contact. Over the last 2.5 years there have been times that I have had to contact H but these have only been when absolutely necessary and usually in relation to household bills that were in Hs name. 

3-4 years on, I am still living in the family home, we are still married and neither of us has started legal proceedings. 

Up until the 3 year mark the thought of divorce made me literally vomit, I am now working with my therapist on scratching that particular sore spot and allowing myself to imagine what could happen and how all the consequences and complications of divorce would affect me.  It is not something I want but realistically I am now 61 years old and would like to start planning my retirement which I can’t do without access to my share of Hs pension funds.  I still have time to make decisions though as I will probably work for another 2 or 3 years and I am financially independant, I take nothing from H.

We have just gone 6 weeks without contact (he called my last Thursday to discuss S26), 6 weeks is the longest he has left it without finding some reason to contact me.  Earlier this year we had a great deal of contact as my FIL died, then there was the funeral, then our S26 was ill.  I realised that all this contact still makes me anxious and the last 6 weeks without contact have be calm – though I do wonder when he will pop up again.

On the whole I have a lovely life.  I have nearly completely redecorated / refitted the family home and there isn’t really anything of H left in it.  I have sorted out and replanted the garden – gardening was always Hs domain but I am enjoying working in it and also loving the results – who knew I could garden!

I have some wonderful friends, some of whom were LBS - so people I can spend time with and go away with - though I am happy to travel on my own – went to Bali at the end of last year and  I am really looking forward to the meet up in Tuscany in September.  And of course I have my dog – she was 3 last weekend – she has been my life saver and gave me a reason to get out of bed on my worse days.

S27 lives away from home during the week but comes home on the weekends and S26 is currently living at home but is applying for a visa to Australia and he intends to go traveling before the end of the year.  I will really miss him but I am absolutely sure that it is something he needs to do.

I would like to say that I am just getting on with my life and don’t think about H much but that would be a lie.  He is still constantly on my mind, however it is not now in the manic ‘I need to sort this out now, I need to do something to fix it’ way that it was 3 years ago, it is now more in a WTF happened sort of way and I now no longer feel the need to fix anything, what will be will be and I am sure that in the end I will be absolutely fine.  I have changed so much over the last 3 years, I am more independent, I am calm and relaxed and I would say – Yes I am happy – I miss my best friend of 34 years but it is what it is and I can live knowing I loved (still love) wholeheartedly and that my marriage failed not because of anything I did or didn’t do, this is Hs crisis. 

Any info you have on where the MLCer seems / seemed to be, anything that has / did change in their life or behaviour?

H has ticked all the MLC stages so far.  It really became noticeable at the beginning of 2015 when he started his MLC job, H reinvented himself, started drinking / exercising +++ / smoking / obsessed with his weight / dressed in young cloths / got a tattoo / bought a classic car and would say to anyone who would listen ‘I’m never going to grow old and I am never going to retire’.  Then the anger started – nobody (particularly me) could do anything right - he was just ANGRY all the time.  His arrogance was off the scale at this time.

After BD I could see the confusion, he actually said he was so confused and that he felt numb.  His drinking increased as did his exercise – to a point that he described the way he exercised as a form of self-harm, he even spoke about contemplating suicide on a number of occasion.

After he left (end August 2016) his coldness and indifference were frightening, I could have dropped down dead in front of him and he would have just stepped over my body.  And obviously everything was my fault.  By February 2017 he was planning on moving again (2nd time in 6 months) saying (complete with jazz hands!) I am moving to start a whole new life, with a whole new circle of friends and a whole new social life and it will be great.  Once he moved he completely distanced himself from me and our sons.  In January 2018 his mother passed away.  During the first half of that year he became ill with numerous infections that he just couldn’t shake off and I think that during this time he had a small awakening.  He came to see me in August 2018 and we had a long conversation (he talked, I listened).  He described being very tired, that he just couldn’t rest, that his head was full of thoughts that he just couldn’t get to the bottom of, be actually said that if he could just deal with one of these thoughts (problems)  then he felt he would maybe tackle the rest one at a time.  He felt he needed time alone just to ‘sort his head out’ and he was considering taking time out just to think, he also said he wouldn’t wish what he had been though during the last 3 years of his life on his worst enemy!  He was seeing a therapist and planning on leaving his job.  He missed his family and he was desperate to reconnect with our sons.  I honestly think OW was out of the picture at this time and had been for a while.

Then Bam – OWs H, who had found out 18 months before about the affair, had decided enough was enough and he was divorcing her, I actually think she is in MLC too.  She contacting H again, and the affair was back on - H was back in the fog.  Instead of leaving his job he took on more work (because that always helps with the stress!!!) and moved closer to his office (3rd move in 2.5 years).

It seemed up to this point that he was heading for liminality – hanging on with his finger tips to stop himself falling and hitting rock bottom – he then got the injection of dopamine that he needed from his reconnection with OW and managed to stop his fall.  I feel it is only a matter of time before he is hanging on by his fingertips again.

Now 10 months on, I am not sure what the state of the relationship with OW is, from what I can piece together (though I am really not that interested) they don’t see each other – whether they talk/text I have no idea.  FIL passed away in March and for the 14 months before he died H had spent at least one day every weekend travelling to see him.  Since FIL passed away it seems H can’t be on his own, he has spent weekends our oldest friends (first time in 3 years) and sees his brother most weekends, he has yet to spend a weekend alone in his own company.  This last month he has been cycling up to 10 hours per day during the weekends training to take part in 200km road race (which took place yesterday). 

H has just bought a flat in town he originally fled to (4th move in 3 years).

It seems that he has he withdrawn not only from me, but also our sons.  They have both only seen him twice this year and one of those times was FIL funeral.  He phones both boys once a week (duty calls they call them) S27 talks to him but he reports that it is all very superficial and S26 usually ignores around three in four calls.  H announced to them both last week that he would be coming up on the 16th to see them and maybe they could go for lunch.  Both have said sorry we have plans – shame as its Father’s Day.

Enyo x

[heroIam]

Perhaps a few bullet points on:
- where you are/were as the LBS, the progress you've made and what life is like at 3-4 years?

I'm 4 + years in.  Things are content, semi peaceful emotionally.  I'm no longer as hopeful and have accepted somewhat. Sadness loneliness and grief still happens. More gratitude for small things

- any info you have on where the MLCer seems/seemed to be, anything that has/did change in their life or behaviour

I have a semi vanisher. I dont know much of where he's at. Dont know if behavior has changed.  Seems the same to me.  Theres some contact but mostly business related.

[DCD]

At the 3-year ish mark, husband made an attempt to come home.  I believe he had experienced a bit of a self-induced bomb drop of his own and saw that all the choices and decisions he had made did not bring him the happiness he felt he deserved.  OW had shown her true colours and he had "decided" that he now wants to be the husband and father he should have been all along.  Within a month, his overt depression became evident.  He was weepy and tired all the time.  He would, at times, go see OW in an "attempt to make her understand" but unbeknownst to me, he was in constant contact with her.  The relationship resumed and his being at home then turned into a mission to push me out of the house from the inside.  He became much more monsterish and cruel than ever, leaving real estate ads and ideas for valentine's gifts for your love (obviously not me) around for me to find.  I dug deep and eventually he tired of it and left again, but not before presenting me with a laughable separation agreement.  They became "engaged" later that year (we're still married, by the way).

That decided for me to finally fully let go and focus on me and mine.  I was able to detach and make a life for me and my son that completely excluded and didn't depend on what husband was doing.  He certainly tried to insert himself, often in monsterish ways but also in helpful ways.  Mostly, i was convinced he would continue his life with his girlfriend.  And he did continue with her for another 5 years before returning home again almost a year and a half ago. This was a year after undergoing separation mediation and a month before our home was to go on the market, as per the separation agreement (which he, in the end, refused to sign and let his lawyer go - as part of the agreement for him to return, I made him sign the separation agreement along with an addendum stating this was not a marital reconciliation and the decisions outlined in the contract, except for selling the house, were binding - he agreed).  Today, we more or less live as a family.  We haven't had any big talks about it but more and more, the little things point to his settling down, his focus is on us and his home.  He is calmer and much more content - we all are.  I am optimistically cautious but enjoying each day for what it is. 

[em5731]

My bd was December 2014, exh moved out October 2015. Divorced about a year now.
I have remodeled and changed my whole house so it looks totally different then when he was here. I am no contact unless he contacts me about something important regarding my daughter.
He pretends he want a relationship with our daughter but puts no effort into it. She wants nothing to do with him. She is 11 years old. My adult son also wants nothing to do with him. ex does send him texts but he doesnt respond any more.
I am happy with my life, I am single. I will never reach out to ex. Unless he shows total remorse I probably wont speak to him. He did a lot of damage to me and my kids, I don't recognize him now. He is old, fat and miserable. He lives with a 30 year old woman. He is 52.
I don't see him ever reconnecting with any of us as he will never put in that time of work. And we will not take any less. As we deserve so much more

[9393roo]

Thought I would respond to this one. 

BD March 2016  I found graphic sexual texts to OW a 30 year old employee who lives in another town.  Changes were happening to H about a year before.  Excessive exercise, colored hair, got his testosterone tested, started to use tanning beds.  Told me I was crazy and he felt young and alive.  After BD he moved to the garage for 3 weeks. I begged him to get help and come home.  Saw a counselor for 1 month and quit saying that he made a mistake that's all.  Continued to cake eat and kept the affair going for 2 more years.  (She lives in another town)  BD #2 happened December 2017 when we had a company Christmas party and she shoved him into a bathroom.  Lots of rumors from everyone. I made him move out of our room.  He went into 2 months of heavy OW withdrawal.  I found this forum.  He started touch and goes.  July 2018 I found texts to another woman.  A flight attendant on his flight he would take to XOW town.  (He was thriving on attention)  I told him to stay the he$$ away from me.  He told me he was scared to move out.  I told him I didn't care where he went he just had to stay away from me.  I told him I refused to talk to him until he got some help,he found an IC that he is with still today.  I stopped everything I was doing for him.  cooking, cleaning, listening to him.  I went dark.   For about 6-8 months he went through heavy cycling. I saw some very strange stuff.  During this time he has reconnected with our D (the only kid we had at home of the big crash) We are SLOWLY working things out.  He has been making strides forward in the last 2-3 months.  Cycling is calming down.  He is slowing down, stopped coloring his hair, exercising less, ego is calming down.  Everything stresses him out lately.  He is back in our bedroom (no sex) but goes to bed at night with his arm around me.  He checks several times during the night to make sure I am still here.  He is facing things more and more but only can take small doses at a time.  So here we are slowly creeping forward.

Where you are/were as the LBS, the progress you've made and what life is like at 3-4 years?
I have made big changes in my life.  I have traveled, I have volunteered I feel like I have lived.  I am not as trusting as a person as I used to be.  I feel like I have lost some of my innocence in life, but I've gained some strength.  I know my boundaries and I will stick to them like glue. I got to the point that I will be ok if this doesn't work out, I think this was a turning point for me. I will never go back to the relationship we used to have.  My voice will be heard now.

Any info you have on where the MLCer seems/seemed to be, anything that has/did change in their life or behaviour
I'm pretty sure my H's MLC were a combination of getting older and not getting enough attention as a kid.  He tells me he is thoroughly embarrassed about his actions with the OW.  Still has not accepted what it has all done to me.  We are starting to address this in MC.  I believe the turning point for him was the outing of the affair.  He started waking up to the fact that his fantasy life with the OW in another town was exposed.  Sometimes he looks at me and I can tell he thinks about what he could have lost.  He doesn't have the words yet. 

The more space I give him the more he opens up to me.  It takes much to be quiet sometimes and I have had to learn to deal with my own pain and triggers on my own.  There has been no get down on his knees moment begging for forgiveness from my H.  Maybe there never be.  Right now I will take calm and slow.  I see signs that he is dealing with his issues.  This is good enough for me right now.  Maybe something good and new will come out of this, right now I know it can't be rushed. 


 

[Trustandlove]

I thought I would respond here; at the 3-4 year mark, pretty much 3.5 years after BD, my H again seemed to be turning back towards me, I again thought that the tide might be turning.  He had had one such episode a year before, much more of a breakdown, at the 2.5 year mark, when I really did think that the worst was over, I was wrong. 

The forum had just started then, about 6 months before, and I remember titling my first thread "somewhere in the middle" -- I laugh now, because I honestly thought I was somewhere in the middle of this mess, and that I would, in a few years, just say that yes, he did that the first year, that the second, and was "done" by the nth.....     

This was one of the points where I again saw "him", where I could see him reaching, reaching reaching -- coming within a hair of reaching out to me, and then pulling back again.   

He talked a lot at that point of feeling guilty, started saying he was going to be around a lot more (the r with OW4 had just finished), even asked more about me, that kind of thing. 

It didn't quite work out that way, of course; a week or two after talking to me like that he announced that he was off to the other side of the world "for a few weeks"; taking great pains to say that I was still his emergency contact, and saying that it was all for professional reasons so that he could provide for us, that of course didn't happen that way.   He did go away, it wasn't with an OW, but it was probably to feed what I didn't at that point fully understand was an addiction, and of course it was physically running away rather than facing a problem. 

And yes, 6 months later later we realised there was now an OW5, he had a "new" professional venture that seemed very dodgy (turns out it was), and he was again closed off, angry, all that. 

That may have been what the articles call peeking out of the tunnel, possibly seeing the damage and not being able to face it, call it what you will. 

It was when I really was able to put into practice the art of listening and responding rather than reacting; it was something I had been working so hard on learning how to do.  So I did, if I go back over how I spoke to him then I wasn't angry, I wasn't completely agreeing with everything he said, but I think I did OK. 

I did, however, think that perhaps he was showing some concern for me and my difficulties with the children when he showed some understanding of the difficulties that one S had, but again that fell short of the mark.  I was quick to give him any opening, though. 

So it was one of the many dips on the rollercoaster; for me it was yet another exercise in learning to deal with this all. 

Not long after the conversations I related above a close friend died; we spoke a while after that and that was the time that I did, for the first time in nearly 4 years, tell him that I did love him.  He had tears in his eyes then, and told me that "I guess you never stop loving someone".  I didn't know about OW5 yet then, we found out only later, but all that was yet another point where he may well have looked, thought again about us and our family, but in the end he still chose another life. 

Not, I stress, because he was "cooked", but most likely because he still couldn't face himself, or believe that I wouldn't punish the h - e - double toothpicks out of him.  He still thought that a "someone else" would solve the problem.