[Treasur]

Hi Puzzled

My Father also went through a MLC and he blew up his own life. He left to live with ow and my mother remarried. He regretted it every day of the rest of his life.
Your h may never tell you because as in my case, my own ex h moved on and remarried. I know explaining to him and telling him how much I regret what happened, however much I want to will cause him more problems as his new marriage is not a happy one. He has small children with his new wife and I will never rock that boat. I caused him so much pain I will never cause him more.
Sometimes it isn’t the best course of action and we MLCers just have to accept we caused this, we made our beds and now we have to lie on them. Too much damage to repair, too embarrassed by what we did. The LBS may have moved on etc., so many reasons as to why but I know in my own case I will always regret what I did and I will always love my ex h.

Dear ShockSis
I feel as if i am tiptoeing into tricky ground so I want to preface what I say with a few caveats. That I respect and admire your courage and your wish to help others here, as well as support your own sister. That I respect your decisions about your own life and have no wish to change them bc they belong to you. That this stuff is hard. That I am sure it is far from easy to witness your sister's pain knowing that you inflicted similar pain on others. That you do not want to hurt anyone else and are very aware of not being selfish in what you do. And that you know your xh's life is currently not a bed of roses and there are children involved.

I want to give you the 'gift' in return I suppose of talking about deep healing from an LBS perspective. What, if anything, you do with that gift is your business.

I want to say something about healing though. Not reconciliation but healing.

Even with what you know now, even with witnessing your sister's pain, there are probably things about how your xh experienced this trauma in his own life and how the wounds changed him that you may not know. Just as we can read your honest heartfelt words but still never quite know how it felt to be you in the fog.

As an LBS, way beyond the issue of the marriage, the experience can leave us feeling as if we are nothing, as if our life was nothing, as if our past was nothing, as if everything we believed about ourselves and the world was nothing. That we are worthless, powerless and don't matter. Your crisis behaviour sent that message over and over again to your xh for probably 3-5 years. And your xh had no voice that was heard by you or probably by others in RL who couldn't get it. And he probably didn't have an HS gang or his own version of a ShockSis to help and support him and hear him. We may rebuild the broken jigsaw and we may keep reminding ourselves that it wasn't us...but it is a primal wound. And like most wounds, it needs time, care, light and air to really heal.

It is hard to make good choices for ourselves when we still carry some of that wound. Perhaps that led your xh to make an unwise choice about his current marriage. Perhaps it is making it harder for him to also address the issues in his life now and make a stronger life and marriage. Perhaps he is dealing with his own residue just as you are dealing with yours.

Imho....putting to one side completely the issue of anybody's marriage, current or past or future...there is a bit of healing that can only be done by seeing and hearing and telling the truth with compassion. And many people never get the opportunity to do that. What any individual does with that healing is their own responsibility. But there is a redemption in healing after trauma, maybe for both LBS and MLCer, which I honestly believe can only leave individuals feeling stronger and healthier and able to make better lives after it. It may need professional third party support bc that kind of healing work is hard and feels risky to do. That perhaps healing is less about what we say and more about how we listen.

But I honestly believe that healing from trauma is a goal worth focusing on regardless of what else is going on at the time, that it is an opportunity for a kind of real and deep redemption and peace. Way beyond marriages past and present...it isn't about the marriages, it's about the humans.

As I say, I respect your right to do or not do as you see best and I can hear that your intentions are driven by love and a sense of responsibility towards your xh.

I just wanted to say as honestly as I can that it is as hard for you to really feel the guts of the LBS wounds as it is for us to really feel the guts of the MLC wounds. And that I believe rightly or wrongly that deep wounds need light and air to heal.

[Milly]

Treasur, what a strong post. I agree with everything you said.

Shocksis, I appreciate so much how you come here and try to answer as many of our questions as possible. You are helping us tremendously because our spouses have basically annihilated us and we have no idea why.

As an LBS, I don't think I'll ever heal from BD. I may learn to live with it, but I will always feel that my past was nothing unless my H told me it was something. That would give me the whole central part of my life back. That would help me personally accept what happened and give me back my memories.

If I could have a letter from my H telling me he made a mistake, regretted the pain he caused me, even if he can't come back to me, I would be in a much better place. You see, it's this wondering if my H never loved me, or maybe he does care deep inside and is scared to tell me, that keeps me hanging, waiting, probably wasting time. No amount of people can tell me to move on, focus on myself, take my sight off my H, because I'm always going to be left wondering what happened. Some answers from my H would really help me heal.

[Treasur]

Is it about answers or explanations for you, Milly, or being heard and acknowledged in some way? Or both?

I have accepted that not all of my memories are contingent on my xh. And some are bc some are about his half of our life or contribution to it, and about information I did not and do not have. This experience leaves a lot of missing conversations and a lot of unfinished business and patches of doubt perhaps.

I'm not sure that knowing he regretted his choices would help me much now. I am not standing and I would never probably feel safe enough with him to allow him back in my life in any real way, much as I love the person who used to be my h.  I think some acknowledgement of his bits of our life that were closer to how I remember them would help if that was the truth,  some sense of having valued or valuing some of it and some of me and some recognition of our friends and family's love for him. That would be gracious. Maybe some insight on what I became to him in his head from what I used to be that he could justify inflicting the kind of devastation on my life that he did and be ok with it or see it as being what I deserved from him.

Maybe most though for me would feeling that even belatedly my thoughts and feelings about our marriage and our life mattered enough to be heard even if he disagreed or had a different POV.

I have no expectation of that ever happening in my situation. Seems more likely that Santa Claus is real tbh and it seems so futile to ask any active MLCer for anything you need  But if it did, some kind of compassionate acknowledgement and some show of remorse for the effects of his choices even if he is content to have ended up where he is, would heal some small bits of the wound that I am not sure will ever heal on their own. And that may be something I just have to live with as I can't make anyone else do anything at all.

[Nerissa]

As an LBS, I don't think I'll ever heal from BD. I may learn to live with it, but I will always feel that my past was nothing unless my H told me it was something. That would give me the whole central part of my life back. That would help me personally accept what happened and give me back my memories.


I’m thinking about this.  And I think you are asking for something that might not give you what you think.  I don’t know though.  I have had something akin to this.  H saying ‘I think she thinks it wasn’t ever real’ (implying the opposite was true) and telling me recently by phone that he cannot imagine what his actions did to me and felt like to me. 

What do I feel?  Perhaps a kind of satisfaction that he is showing some discomfort and contrition. Some acknowledgement that his behaviour was wrong.

Anyone who marries for
Any significant time
has an experience that is real and vital.  I can see aspects of my H’s character that led us here, but I don’t doubt that his feelings were real.  They came with some immaturity; egocentricity etc that might mean his love wasn’t durable and was feelings oriented, but I know it was real for him as he understood love to be.  I also know he intended it it last but issues got  in the way.  I should think this is true for the majority of mlc spouses.

Where I’d guess your ‘work’ lies is in a place similar to mine Milly.  By overvaluing our H’s opinions and undervaluing our own, we are relying on them to make real and valuable our own experience of the marriage.  And they can’t do that.  Only we can.  My musings lead me to think that when I have thought an apology from H would help, it is because somewhere inside, probably unconsciously, is an implicit belief that such an apology will be followed by a wish from H to start over again with me.

I’m not dissing the idea of apology, but I’m questioning the value of an apology to validate the value of a marriage .  I believe  that my marriage and my part in it was valuable and valued and I came to that conclusion before receiving an apology.  I ascertain it’s value to me and my contribution to it, not H.  I have no doubt your marriage was a valuable one and you a valuable partner.  You still are that person and perhaps are better than ever. 

This is a self esteem thing and we need to find a way to it, however haltingly.

[Nerissa]

Gosh I said ‘valuable’ a lot in that post but I can’t be bothered to edit it.

[Treasur]

Ah but 'valuable' is the heart of what we're talking about isn't it? 

[Tyks]

I don't think I will ever heal from bd either but through much work and determination I now realize that I am valuable as a person. I do not need my h to help me with that anymore. However, in the beginning I certainly needed those answers and validation which I never got with my vanisher. I now realize that my worth is not based on an opinion of another and that my xh's choices were his own to make.  It is so true when everyone here tells us that it is not about us or our marriage. It takes a long time to get to the point of believing that because how could it not be about us or the marriage.

I recently went to my IC for a tune up. He also saw my xh for three appointments three years ago. He explained to me that my xh lives for the moment and whether he is happy or not he stuffs it and then the unhappiness leads to resentment towards me even though I had no idea he was stuffing unhappiness! So my question to him was well why would my xh just move himself right to another "situation?". The IC answer was because my xh will never do the work and will never look within to figure out why he is unhappy he will ride this next wave and the resentment will build and build for however long until he decides that it is up to our own selves to find our happy.

So my IC says similar words to what we hear on HS time and time again. And shock's sis is here telling us again. It is not about us or the marriage. I appreciate you taking the time shock's sis to answer the questions everyone has and it is probably therapeutic in a way for you to be able to tell so many others what it is like BC you can't tell your xh.

[hopeandfaith]

Hi Puzzled

I know explaining to him and telling him how much I regret what happened, however much I want to will cause him more problems as his new marriage is not a happy one This is a judgement call that you are making on his behalf. He has small children with his new wife and I will never rock that boat. I caused him so much pain I will never cause him more. You cannot predict what will cause him more pain - knowing vs not knowing.
Sometimes it isn’t the best course of action and we MLCers just have to accept we caused this, we made our beds and now we have to lie on them. Too much damage to repair, too embarrassed by what we did. The LBS may have moved on etc., so many reasons as to why but I know in my own case I will always regret what I did and I will always love my ex h.

Shocksis, I want to show you the respect of being very honest with you about how much of a trigger it is to hear you say that you made your bed and now you need to lie in it.  Your MLC was a decision about your H's life that he didn't get to weigh in on.  Now you are effectively doing the same thing again.  I understand that you do not want to cause him more pain so how would you feel about asking him if he wants any questions answered about that time?  He may very well wish to put it behind him.  He may even be angry at you for digging up old wounds and sending his life spiralling into chaos for nothing.  Can you hear that from him?  Can you let him decide what he wants?

[Treasur]

I think we are all saying something a bit similar, aren't we?
That truthfully the only person who knows what he needs to heal further, or indeed if he wants to do that, is shockSis's xh...not us, and tbh not maybe ShockSis either. Or indeed how and why he might want it, or when, or what it would give him that is useful.

That the water is muddied by her own fears, guilt, love and caution. Understandably. But there is a kind of 'control' in the assumptions we make about what others need so we wanted ShockSis to have some extra information to add to her pot? So sometimes the easiest thing to do is ask and let the other person choose for themselves? That it is an act of respect. Recognising that this is a tender spot for LBS bc we rarely got much choice or were asked what we needed in this experience.

[FromAbroad]

Is it about answers or explanations for you, Milly, or being heard and acknowledged in some way? Or both?

Good question.
For me it's about being acknowledged. Do I need the answers to everything that has happened. Maybe I do, but I think my xW nor I will ever have the answers. One day she will probably realise it was an internal struggle and had nothing to do with me. But she will still not be able to give answers to all the horrible things that have happened and why she choose to do so. And I even think I am no longer looking for those answers.

What I hope to get one day is indeed acknowledgement. I just want her to sit down one day and to ask me how it has been for me. How did it feel for me. Just listening to me without interrupting or making excuses. To just listen. I don't need excuses for all the horrible things, because basicly how can one make apologies for those things. But just an excuse telling me she indeed did love me and she is sorry for making me feel like I am nothing, that she is sorry for making me feel the way I did (and still do). That would be sufficient.

And to be honest I think she wants the same. And I do want to listen to her, without judgement, without anger, but also without the MLC mind. I want this for a long time allready, but sadly she still is deep in MLC.

For me it isn't about reconcilliation anymore. But I sure like to talk to her one day, the real one that is, and just talk and listen to eachother.