[megogirl]

And, ladies and gentlemen.....I think we have the very definition of the term "involuntary manslaughter."  It implies any death where the "murderer" was not at fault.  Seinfeld even made fun of that term for being so flippant.

It is one that I think applies to our MLC'ers.

[megogirl]

It's the similarities which are very useful in particular..... and I really appreciate Shocks for helping so much.

Just want to make sure this isn't an attack session again as has happened in the past. We're all busted up to some extent or another as LBS's..... and so are ex-MLC'ers.
Hopefully we can help Shocks as much as she helps us.

YASSSS, all of that - we appreciate your every word xxx

[Thunder]

I like that Stand.

Sis has been helpful to so many people who are trying to make sense of this, but it is important that we understand she is only giving her story and what she went through.

I find a lot of what she says very helpful.  It's hard to understand sometimes how they felt about their LBS's during this time, so to know it has nothing to do with us is a good thing.

To know they could care less about us, or our feelings, does put things in perspective and make it less personal.

[lawprofessor]

And, ladies and gentlemen.....I think we have the very definition of the term "involuntary manslaughter."  It implies any death where the "murderer" was not at fault.  Seinfeld even made fun of that term for being so flippant.

It is one that I think applies to our MLC'ers.

Involuntary manslaughter does not mean the murder was not at fault.

It means the person who killed another did not have the mens rea or guilty mind to intend to murder another yet still murdered another

Generally, Involuntary manslaughter refers to an unintentional killing that results from criminal negligence, reckless behavior, or from committing an illegal activity with a high probability of injuring or killing another such as a DUI.

Persons found guilty of Involuntary manslaughter are sentenced to generally between 2 and upwards of 20 years in prison. 

So in fact the one who killed is held responsible and accountable for their act under the law.

That differs from Off Roads example in that she was not presumably walking as part of another crime, behaving in a risky or negligent manner, or behaving recklessly when she accidentally tripped.  In that case OR could be held civilly responsible for a death, accidental though it may be.

But yes, I do remember that episode of Seinfeld.

Lp

[terra]

Ok.

The guy who killed my father, did so while my father was asleep. He smashed my father’s skull in with a huge rock.

He got involuntary manslaughter.

He got five years, walked free after two. Zero reparations to the family and no apologies.

So if we’re comparing MLC to legal criminality, maybe it’s helpful to examine how jury of peers probably figures into accountability and remorse, etc.

[Father5]

Hi SS ,

I got served last week. My wife has had alot more contact with me as well. I am still not able tk talk to her or really look at her. Is this a problem I need to Solve anytime soon? Is my distance chasing her away or making her feel like the door isn't open. ?

[Treasur]

I have learned (very very slowly  ) that the thoughts I resist most are often where I hurt most and the things I need to address most. When i am ready and I can, which sometimes takes a little while.

I see us talking about three things here; culpability for having a crisis or depression, regret for the effects and remorse for the people other than you who get hurt by it.

Your responses, ShockSis, usually are very measured and quite open and kind in tone. But your response when any of us question your stance on showing remorse or on the extent to which you might understand the depth of pain your actions caused your xh and your daughter say are different. Which is your right of course. It's the only time you come across as defensive or with a flavour of MLCish self-centredness. But from the outside, seems like a missing bit of the recovery jigsaw. I don't say this to criticise you or 'Chase you away'....but if you can't engage in discussion unless people don't challenge your perspective with their own, that may be a bit of a flag for you about your own healing work bc it is a bit MLCish.

I don't believe either that anyone 'chooses' to have an MLC or depressive breakdown or PTSD or addiction. But I also believe that recovering from any of them requires a level of accountability for the actions that took you into it...as with my PTSD...in order to take the actions that get you out of it. And - other than marrying my h and perhaps inadvertently enabling some of his poor life coping skills inadvertently - I certainly wasn't accountable for his abusive actions towards me. But I am/was - even if it feels unfair sometimes - accountable for my own self-protection and how I deal with the effects of it. An 'act of God' free pass for either of us doesn't seem very constructive tbh.

For me, it is a bit like 12 steps. Regret is 'sorry for what happened'. Remorse is 'sorry for what I did'. Neither imho need an apology for the reason behind it, for having a crisis or depression...the why of it is no ones' business but your own and your choice to share the why as you see fit. I can only  imagine how painful it might be to look at the damage and pain you caused but it is still reality that your behaviour in crisis DID probably cause great pain for your xh, your daughter and some of your friends and family. LP's drunk driver analogy works for me...but again the reality is that it wasn't a one of incident but repeated over a number of years, not months or weeks. Some of the damage was life-altering and as you probably see from your window into LBS life here and with your sister, there is a lot of residue that takes years to heal. And many of us feel that acknowledgement of that by an MLCer is an important part of their healing process and perhaps our own.

Part of what we do here is offer 2x4s with love to each other. We call out self-sabotaging BS while accepting that people have the right to reject it. In essence, MLC seems to me to be a time when someone puts how THEY FEEL at a given moment above everything and everyone else, including how other people feel. It makes sense to me that real recovery is about no longer doing that....

You don't owe us anything at all. But perhaps you owe yourself and those you love a moment to consider whether you still have some recovery work to do around the issue of remorse and accountability. That may even be the unasked for gift of your posting here. Jmo. It is your life and you will do what you are ready or willing to do.

[Thunder]

I'm having a bit of a hard time with this. 

You said if SS can't engage in discussion unless people don't challenge her perspective with their own, you think it may be a bit MLCish.

I thought SS's explanation was pretty clear.  At least it was to me.  I honestly don't see it as MLCish.
She does not want to further hurt her XH and does not feel this is the time to talk to him.  I would think she has her own reasons for that, one being she knows him probably better than anyone else.  I guess I don't see that as selfish at all.  She's not unleashing her guilt onto him so she feels better.
She has asked people to please respect her decision, twice now.  She obviously feels she is doing the right thing, whether some disagree with her or not.
Maybe in her heart she knows what this would do to her xh, at this time.  I sure don't know.

We all have different circumstances, and different MLCer's, so we do what we feel is the best way to handle our unique situations.
How I handle mine, isn't maybe the best way to handle someone else's.  So right or wrong, we all make different decisions going forward.

I see nothing wrong with asking questions, as to why SS may feel like she does but in my opinion I thought her answer made sense.

It's quite possible some LBS's who are still hurting want her to do what would make them feel good, and when they are not hearing that from SS they are having a hard time accepting she may just know better how to handle her XH and his family situation.

Maybe this feels uncomfortable to some and people have voiced their opinions, which is fine we express our views on a Discussion thread, but we still need to respect each others choices.  We are not here to judge anyone.
If anyone disagrees with me, that's fine.  I accept that. 

I'm just giving my unasked for opinion.

[nah]

This is one of the most popular threads bc most LBSers are curious about what the MLCer was thinking. Even though we thought we knew them better than anyone else, well, we still couldn’t see inside their heads.

I’m a remarried LBS.

SS, take it or leave it (I have a feeling you’re going to leave it)

Having my ex come to me, phone me, write to me that I did not deserve to be betrayed and abandoned would do the opposite of “hurting me”. Honestly, the idea that an authentic apology could hurt someone just doesn’t make sense. How about giving the LBSer a chance to decide what’s good for them?

That would be a nice change.

[1trouble]

I'm having a bit of a hard time with this. 

You said if SS can't engage in discussion unless people don't challenge her perspective with their own, you think it may be a bit MLCish.

I thought SS's explanation was pretty clear.  At least it was to me.  I honestly don't see it as MLCish.
She does not want to further hurt her XH and does not feel this is the time to talk to him.  I would think she has her own reasons for that, one being she knows him probably better than anyone else.  I guess I don't see that as selfish at all.  She's not unleashing her guilt onto him so she feels better.
She has asked people to please respect her decision, twice now.  She obviously feels she is doing the right thing, whether some disagree with her or not.
Maybe in her heart she knows what this would do to her xh, at this time.  I sure don't know.

We all have different circumstances, and different MLCer's, so we do what we feel is the best way to handle our unique situations.
How I handle mine, isn't maybe the best way to handle someone else's.  So right or wrong, we all make different decisions going forward.

I see nothing wrong with asking questions, as to why SS may feel like she does but in my opinion I thought her answer made sense.

It's quite possible some LBS's who are still hurting want her to do what would make them feel good, and when they are not hearing that from SS they are having a hard time accepting she may just know better how to handle her XH and his family situation.

Maybe this feels uncomfortable to some and people have voiced their opinions, which is fine we express our views on a Discussion thread, but we still need to respect each others choices.  We are not here to judge anyone.
If anyone disagrees with me, that's fine.  I accept that. 

I'm just giving my unasked for opinion.

I completely agree with everything you have said Thunder.

We have every right to express our opinions but no right to judge anyone else and their decisions