[AlvinTheMaker]

Such an interesting discussion thread....

The 4 A's...we seem to feel instinctively that some or all of these are necessary to heal and be an emotionally healthy human after some kind of life-altering change or crisis?
Acknowledgement - does that mean validation?
Accountability - not being a victim or blaming others so we can be in charge of our own lives?
Acceptance - seeing and speaking the truth and dealing with reality as it is now?
Apology - having empathy or feeling remorse?
I guess some of us might define these things differently? Are there any missing A's? Idk. And are all of the A's of equal weight? Idk.

Seems to me too - which I think is shown in the discussion so far - that if being a healthy human is the outcome, then the discussion has three aspects.
Which of the 4 A's WE need to DO to be healthy ourselves?
Which of them we believe our MLCer needs to DO to be healthy?
(Assuming that some kind of thinking/feeling shift is necessary for either one before any kind of DO is possible.)
And I suppose if there is any interaction betweeen our 4 A's and their 4 A's? If we need to receive things from them or indeed they from us for any kind of healing?

Not sure I have any answers lol but I look forward to learning from the different perspectives.

Accountability - Hearing "blame" ...is my #1 trigger.  It took almost 4 years to get the reactivity under control. I heard blame, even when there was none...according to 2 therapists. I was "hearing thru a wound". If he is unable to voice words of accountability, to own his sh*t...how will I ever know ?  My intuition is on shakey ground...he needs to use his big boy words, speak from his heart and tell me who he is . If he is unable to do this...trust will never be restored.

I really really like what Treasur wrote, but this one by barbiedoll touched something very deep.   "Hearing blame" (even when there was necessarily none).... yep, guilty as charged.

It is so easy to look at MLCr and say nothing's happening...  But how much of that is is really coming from our own perception.  From the fact we are hearing through our wounds.  The more I've learned about human psychology, the more I've began to understand how much all of us are prisoners of our own perception.

Just my 2 cents worth of topic I'm just beginning to understand on some very rough level. Ask me again in 3 years time, LOL.

[Father5]

   This is a big one for me. Yes I think words at this point would help but they would have to be genuine and from the heart. I have gone so long with feeling and being treated like I am dog excrement on the bottom of her shoe. That I should just move on and be friends for the kids. Meanwhile she is worth Millions and is asking more than half of what little I do have. If I have $10,000 when this is all said and done I would feel lucky.

 My attorney didn't give me much hope on that front but did in way of the kids and their schedule. She is living a fantasy life that wants a lot of free time, one that I cannot provide with my job. I will have nothing left except my kids I will be starting over like I am 18 only worse as I have some Credit card debt.

  She is far from the woman I know and loved, she would have never done something like this. Would I like a apology hell yes but a meaning less one would make it worse. Would I like any acknowledgement that she FIRETRUCKED UP yes. I haven't yet even been able to look at her in the face let alone a conversation about all of this. I have never been more scared in my life for me and my kids. I cannot stress that enough, I am not sure if I could forgive her even though I would like to think I could I am still not sure. But please acknowledge my existence and the pain you are putting the family through for your own selfish reasons. I was a good and thoughtful hardworking husband and a great father! I don't deserve to be treated this way and left on the lawn still steaming.

[OffRoad]

I think it is true it depends on the MLCer and how they departed (monster? Quietly? Vanished? Always around?) and I would venture it depends on if you had children or furbabies together, too. (I acknowledge that some animals are like children to some people).

Acknowledgement-- This is the most important to me. Acknowledging what he did and that the way it was done was socially unacceptable, morally incorrect and damaging to the kids. This is most important for my children, as it upsets me to no small degree that they think (or at least say) that this was normal and people "just fall out of love", which shows they have zero idea what love really is. Good job, XH.
 
Accountability- No "The devil made me do it" excuses. It doesn't matter if the Devil DID make you do it. When you are accountable for what you have done you make amends no matter the reason.

Acceptance- Knowing he did it, it was part of his life, but not sweeping it under the rug.
 
Apology- This means nothing with the rest and without actions to back it up.

I have to say, I do not understand people who do not want an apology for having been treated poorly. Why do I feel this way? Because while I completely understand a position of "The apology means nothing". I have to disagree with that. It may mean nothing to them, but it might mean something to the person apologizing. I remember a conversation between myself and my XH:
Me: I feel like I've been used up and thrown away. I feel completely abandoned."
Him: "I'm sorry you feel that way."
Me: " No you aren't. You don't care one bit how I feel or you would never  have done this in this way. But thank you for at least saying so."

This exchange means nothing to most of you. Up until then, I wasn't even work speaking to. I was non existent. To me, it wasn't an apology so much as it was him seeing that I was actually a person and he felt he needed to respond in some way. So what I got out of that was that he wasn't (yet)completely lost to the void. Again, If he had been physically violent with me, I wouldn't not have cared. And I think that comes into play as well. No apology would be enough for physical violence. But I guess it's a me thing. I still want to believe that even if I never wanted to have anything to do with my MLCer again, I'd want him to not be screwed up. For the sake of the kids if nothing else. I don't want anyone to be screwed up. So even a half way apology would tell me they feel at least a narcissistic compulsion to behave like a normal human being. That is better than not caring at all, IMO.

My own Pollyanna view.

[Songanddance]

I have to say, I do not understand people who do not want an apology for having been treated poorly. Why do I feel this way? Because while I completely understand a position of "The apology means nothing". I have to disagree with that. It may mean nothing to them, but it might mean something to the person apologizing. I remember a conversation between myself and my XH:
Me: I feel like I've been used up and thrown away. I feel completely abandoned."
Him: "I'm sorry you feel that way."
Me: " No you aren't. You don't care one bit how I feel or you would never  have done this in this way. But thank you for at least saying so."

Thank you OR. I had been taking a break from the forum after an issue arose on my thread and am not fully back but lurking from time to time.

What you say above really resonates with me.  I had been criticised on my thread for stating that I needed a sincere apology in words.  H's love language has always been acts of service and mine words and quality time.  All I had from H was " I'm sorry that you were hurt"   It's too third party, It's too like a cold caller trying to drum up accident claim business. 
I had been told that his actions were enough to show me how sorry he was and that I had to stop needing an apology as we were now reconnecting.   

I want his apology to show his accountabilty and acceptance of what he has done to hurt me and all it needs be is " I'm sorry that I hurt you"    then his actions would have genuine substance.   I discussed this with my sister and she said, as did Barbie " You need to hear those words so that you can complete your healing and move forward"   

The apology not just means something to me but it shows me that it means something to my H and that he truly acknowledges, accept and take accountability for his actions; so far he has done none of that - he has chosen to sweep it under the carpet and try and show through his actions that he might want the marriage. 

I need the words - I need the sincere accountable apology so thanks OR - I was beginning to feel as though apart from Barbie and a couple of others I was being selfish and not reading my own situation properly.

[Treasur]

This is such an interesting thread bc it is validating that, just as our situations are different, we interpret these terms differently and need different things don't we? Which is entirely ok. We may not get what we need but it is entirely ok to say that we need or want it. The fact that others see it differently might make us pause and double-check how we feel and why...but it's part of healing imho to be able to say authentically this is not ok and this is how I feel and what I want.

The tricky bit is in the pragmatic isn't it? I understand the perspective that it is pointless to expect MLC spouses at some stages to do x or y. And that it can hurt to keep trying to get what we want or need from them. But I have always been a bit uncomfortable with too much 'catch the poor broken squirrel' thing too that sometimes can encourage the LBS to trade in their own entirely reasonable feelings and needs in the service of trying to deal with an MLC spouse. And a lot of what we feel we need is entirely reasonable and normal. I guess the other tricky bit is working out how/if you can meet that need if your MLC spouse won't and what the consequences are for the kind of relationship you are prepared to have with them if they don't.

We LBS really wrestle with some big deep stuff usually on our own. That is brave, wise but damn hard work. And sometimes pretty unsatisfying. The bare minimum it should give us I think is the right to say loudly this is how I feel and this is what I need from you. If you can't or won't listen to me or try to do that, I will accept that bc I can't force you and I don't want to force anyone to treat me with respect or empathy....but it will affect how I see you and how much I am prepared to invest in you and what else I do to meet my own needs.

MLC is not normal away from this place. Normal healthy adults place importance on other people's needs and feelings as well as their own. Normal healthy adults who hurt people see that and want to show that they see it, intend to stop behaving that way and apologise as a sign that they intend to do things differently bc they hold themselves accountable for what they do and say. Words alone are not enough - that is usually the kind of shrugged 'sorry it happened' apology that S&D mentioned - but words are often part of how they hurt us, either spewing them or withholding them, so it makes sense to me that words may also be a way to see that someone now feels that the other person matters and that what they did was wrong. It really isn't our job as LBS to mind read or infer or excuse it for them is it? We have all spent too much time mind reading and guessing   

I read an article recently...a tough one to reflect on actually but a realistic one I think...that talks about the cost of forgiveness by the LBS. https://www.affairrecovery.com/newsletter/founder/cost-of-forgiving-infidelity although not in an MLC context.

We all know the argument about forgiveness being for oneself, a choice to not be rewritten by pain or by being a victim. Which is true I think...but not the whole truth. Choosing to forgive, and particularly for anyone in an ongoing relationship with their MLCer, also means swallowing down some things that we don't like and never thought we would have to do. Including perhaps some of our own values and beliefs and needs.  And it often feels like - at best - we're doing the 80 to the MLCers 20  . They may feel they had 'no choice' or were ill etc....but if you hurt me and never own that bc it is too 'hard', then why would I have any confidence that you won't just do it again the next time you feel like it? The tough truth behind MLC is that our spouses decide that they are content for anyone else to pay any price at all really as long as they get what they want.....if they never do any of these 4As, surely the mindset is just the same but maybe all that has changed is what they want.

 I'm not talking about being vengeful or bitter...there is something real about creating ones own poison...but if an MLCer won't challenge their emotional comfort zone to do any of these 4As, why should they (or others, or us) expect or assume that we will continue to challenge our own emotional comfort zone to pay those costs? And often without even that being acknowledged or apparently appreciated.

In my case, from what I see, I have no expectation of my xh ever doing any of these things. So my only choice is to meet them in a different way or live around them being unmet. But it doesn't invalidate that it is entirely reasonable that I should need and want these things as part of my own healing. Or that my judgment is that any MLCer who is unwilling or unable to do these things with both words and actions - including my xh - continues to be far from a healthy healed adult so they will have to live with the cost of that too. That is sad to me, not what I would have wanted for either of us, but seems an inevitable bit of sowing and reaping.

It has always seemed to me that one of the biggest markers of a 'cooked' MLCer is about the Me Me Me factor. If they can't or won't do any of the 4As or understand why you need them, it is just more Me Me Me imho.

[Thunder]

Treasur,

You are so right!  We all have the right to voice what we need or don't need from them, and it will be different for each of us.  Because we are different people, with different needs and each MLCer and situation is different.

It is important that we support what ever each of us needs to heal.

[Anjae]

I have to say, I do not understand people who do not want an apology for having been treated poorly. Why do I feel this way? Because while I completely understand a position of "The apology means nothing". I have to disagree with that. It may mean
nothing to them, but it might mean something to the person apologizing. ...


I still want to believe that even if I never wanted to have anything to do with my MLCer again, I'd want him to not be screwed up. For the sake of the kids if nothing else. I don't want anyone to be screwed up. So even a half way apology would tell me they feel at least a narcissistic compulsion to behave like a normal human being. That is better than not caring at all, IMO.

I'm wondering what not wanting/need a verbal apology as to do with not wanting the MLCer to be well. I want Mr J, and all MLCers, to be well. I don't need a I'm sorry. At this point it is irrelevant. Let alone if it is all I will get.

As for his possible need of apologizing, well, he can e-mail me. Or call me. But if his need, as has happened several times in the past, is reduced to "I'm sorry, it is all my fault", thanks, but not thanks. Actions firts, please.

Long ago, early 2008, Mr J wanted to come by and apologize in person for all he had done. By then he had already done quite a lot, but not as much as he has been doing since - there had be no courts cases, for example.

I end up saying no, don't come. Saying you're sorry while you carry on doing the same stuff, makes no sense. He agreed it didn't.

I'm certain saying "I'm sorry" is not that hard for Mr J. I have heard it many times in the past. What is very, very hard for him is to change, to do what has to be done in actions. "I'm sorry" is too easy for him and what he thinks is enough. All he thinks it takes, in fact.

I want his apology to show his accountabilty and acceptance of what he has done to hurt me and all it needs be is " I'm sorry that I hurt you" then his actions would have genuine substance. 

I want all the money I'm owned, my belongings, monster to go away and be treated with respect. For me it is irrelevant  if Mr J's actions have, or don't have real substance. I just want what is mine.

You guys need to understad it has been 13 years since Mr J left, what type of MLCer he has been and what type of person I am.

This is such an interesting thread bc it is validating that, just as our situations are different, we interpret these terms differently and need different things don't we? Which is entirely ok.

Yes, since our situations are different, we are different, out time since BD is different, we need different things. It is OK.

Where I can see a potential problem between LBS and MLCer is when the LBS needs one thing (ot things), but the MLCer is not able to do it. Like with Barbie and Song that a need a verbal "I'm sorry I hurt you", but their husband don't seem to be capable of.

It has always seemed to me that one of the biggest markers of a 'cooked' MLCer is about the Me Me Me factor. If they can't or won't do any of the 4As or understand why you need them, it is just more Me Me Me imho.

Indeed.

.. .but if an MLCer won't challenge their emotional comfort zone to do any of these 4As, why should they (or others, or us) expect or assume that we will continue to challenge our own emotional comfort zone to pay those costs? And often without even that being acknowledged or apparently appreciated.

Good question. I don't think we should continue to challange/spend/waste our emotional comfort zone to pay such costs. It is a too great emotional, even physical, cost to deal with Mr J in any way. Let alone think of reconciling with him. I don't need that.

[Treasur]

Imho this https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.affairrecovery.com/The-Shocking-Truth-About-Trust-eBook-2017.pdf is one of the clearest most practical things I have ever read about some of what the LBS needs and how to approach it, either as part of a door to reconciliation or as a reason to not do that or as a way to heal solo.

The big takeaway for me was about Safety as a pre-requisite. Made HUGE sense to me and tbh explained why I have made some of the choices I have even if I couldn't quite understand why. For reasons I can only guess at, my h acted consistently from early 2016 as if my thoughts, feelings and even my life were irrelevant to him. And he did that when I was already vulnerable bc I was bereaved and then later seriously ill. Same old, same old that so many of us experience. I'm not sure I was even a chair like Acorn. . I'd had no reason before then, not once, to feel unsafe with my h...but then I did in almost every way possible as a human being. It was about way more than an affair or his wish to leave me, way more.

A friend asked me recently...as friends sometimes do (and partly too bc she occasionally peeks at his online life and is recently seeing some things that suggest his/ow's life is not going so well - but she respects my wish to not know about it)....what I would do if he reached out wanting to talk. And I'd felt that my instinct was to say 'no thank you' but couldn't put my finger on why.

But now I get it....my xh is not safe for me to even talk to bc to date he has done nothing to show that he considers my thoughts, feelings or continued breathing as being something that matters to him now. Hence why for me that Acknowledgement and Accountability thing would be so important...bc I would never feel safe to expose any part of myself, even in a small way, without believing that he saw me as a person and wanted to stop hurting me. That I was safe at all. I chose NC because I believed the exact opposite.

One of those funny things that is complicated but also very simple. Safety.
And how we create it for ourselves as part of our own recovery. Duh. 

[Songanddance]

It has always seemed to me that one of the biggest markers of a 'cooked' MLCer is about the Me Me Me factor. If they can't or won't do any of the 4As or understand why you need them, it is just more Me Me Me imho.

Yep - so true and that's the conclusion I came to about my H because most of his recent actions have been about him and not the family or the house.   He even proudly showed me a framed photo of himself with his bike (one of his MLC toys) and asked where he could hang it up. Seriously H???
I bit my lip!  Interesting when he stated that he couldn't possibly put up the most gorgeous picture of our GD recently because the stone walls were too difficult to drill into for a hook.
Nope he's still cooking but I think he will be on simmer for a long, long, long Rumpelstiltskin time!

[Anjae]

Safety is paramount. I love that there are more than 300km between Mr J and I and that he cannnot come by.

I still remember how messed up and unsafe it was early on, when I was still in our flat, and he could around. It is true I was the one letting him in, but there neither peace nor safety - he was only physically abusive after he left.


He can e-mail, text or call me if he wants to. He can send a letter. Of all those, I prefer e-mail (or letter, if that is still a thing). It is less in your face, it does not involve have to directly speak with Mr J.

At times (once, twice a year, some years not at all) I call him becuase of something legal or business. Sometimes it goes OK, sometimes there is big monster. Back in 2012 we had a very, very long phone talk. He even called back to carry on talking. It is documented in one of my old threads. That talk lasted more than one hour, close to two hours.

I do not know why that one time it was possible to talk so much and so well (no monster, Mr J was very kind and understanding). Right now I don't think I want to have another of those talks. Lots more crazy stuff has happened since then, albeit less totally crazy that up to that point.

I am also far less interested and far more tired of all the MLC stuff. Come, I got big bad, super nasty monster by e-mail last February.  Who wants to deal, or risk getting, big bad, super nasty monster nearly 13 years down the road? No one?

There has been brief moments, during which Mr J considered my feelings, thoughs and even needs. Only to quickly disconsider the former two and never follow through with the third (I am talking in practical, not emotional terms about needs).

For some reason(s), here and there, the old person does show. Too elusive, too quickly go back to the MLC one to be taken seriously or to stop being considered an emotional and well-being safety hazard.

Mr J is aware, at least when he remembers it, I consider him dangerous to my safety in every way and why.