[Counting on Time]

Standing for me right now is about not initiating a divorce (at least that is where I am currently standing) but still moving on with your life without doing anything that could jeopardize a potential reconciliation (ie dating) as well as spending time really working through how you got to this point (although I feel I will always be doing this now).

I believe standing is tied to wanting a reconciliation so it depends on where you are at.... Pre divorce or post divorce.  I don't think one is standing if they are initiating a divorce unless there are other reasons you need to do it, e.g. Financial, physical/emotional abuse.

Stuck is not moving on with your life while standing for a reconciliation in my opinion.

[rosetintedglasses]

I have always treated MLC a little like post partum depression. (Only from what I have read about it rather than experience.) If a new mom (or dad) doesn’t bond with or care for their baby and in fact thinks their baby is better off without them then it is useful to view this through post partum depression lens. It can last a few months to a few years. If not using that lens you would think of the baby’s parent as uncaring, self centred, unreasonable etc.

This behaviour my H is going through has caused a crisis in our family, he is at middle age and acting the opposite of how he did for over 20 years of me knowing him. It was reasonable to look in to MLC because of this and I found he has followed the same path as a lot of others seem to. Viewing this crisis through the MLC lens has been useful for a lot of reasons, probably mainly to know I am not myself going mad and that I can in fact trust my own gut, mind and judgement. For me the lens has been useful and I don’t feel it has kept me stuck for long. Recently I have been thinking of MLC like torture and MLC or not there is only so much I would tolerate to feel I had tried my best for my family.  Just like the baby with post partum depression parent none of this is their fault but they need to not be neglected whatever the reason surrounding it.

Sorry I got interrupted half way through that hope it still makes sense!

Interested in NYM’s placebo question. With all the excellent advice and knowledge on here it is surprising that we don’t navigate this MLC better and with more reconciliations if that is the aim of the site, then again maybe all this advice is keeping more families together than would have otherwise, difficult to know.

Rose 🌹

[lawprofessor]

I wanted to add something to the discussion. I don't want to get off on the tangent of the issue of the odds of reconciliation, and that is not what this post is about. But I think we can reasonably say that most people who join, post about their spouses' MLC, are not coming back in the end with reconciliation stories. They may be reconciling but not returning to the forum. But I think we can safely say that reconciliation is the end result for a minority who continue to post. Then really should we be trusting all the MLC advice we are being given if that is what we want in the end? Does the MLC advice actually HELP produce reconciliation, or is it harmful if we keep following it indefinitely? May it actually be useful only in the beginning but later on  we need different strategies and those later periods simply aren't covered? Do some people reconcile and not return because in the end they found that what they learned in the forum did not actually help in that reconciliation? Sometimes i wonder if the advice is any better than a placebo would be as a drug.

Excellent questions and thought provoking topic that I'd love to see explored further.

Lp

[KeepItTogether]

I wanted to add something to the discussion. I don't want to get off on the tangent of the issue of the odds of reconciliation, and that is not what this post is about. But I think we can reasonably say that most people who join, post about their spouses' MLC, are not coming back in the end with reconciliation stories. They may be reconciling but not returning to the forum. But I think we can safely say that reconciliation is the end result for a minority who continue to post. Then really should we be trusting all the MLC advice we are being given if that is what we want in the end? Does the MLC advice actually HELP produce reconciliation, or is it harmful if we keep following it indefinitely? May it actually be useful only in the beginning but later on  we need different strategies and those later periods simply aren't covered? Do some people reconcile and not return because in the end they found that what they learned in the forum did not actually help in that reconciliation? Sometimes i wonder if the advice is any better than a placebo would be as a drug.

Excellent questions and thought provoking topic that I'd love to see explored further.

Lp

Interesting questions.  My personal opinion is that the advice is good at the beginning, but there indeed does come a time when intuition and self-respect come into play. I mean, we are told to NOT focus on the MLCer after all. But that doesn't always happen. I think, through the "process," some people might become enlightened to the fact their marriages were not what they thought they were. That maybe, life CAN go on without their MLCer.  But there are also some who cling so hard to the past and are so very broken (I am NOT judging bc I have been here too!), that they cannot let go and cling to the hope of reconciliation. And literally nothing else will do for them. And that is their choice. I personally cannot go on like that. I love my H dearly....in his previous form though. I kinda can't stand him now. He's a narcissistic a$$hat. Hard to imagine reconciling ever with this person. I'm not even compelled to reach out to him most days now, which is a major step for me.

Anyway,is the advice helpful or harmful to the possibility of reconciliation? My take is that it truly depends on what the person does with it. Ultimately my take from some of veterans here is to go out and find myself and work on the one person I can control--me. Not focus at all on the MLCer. Not so easy with a small child. But I'm getting better. And realizing that I deserve better. What that means and how that looks is not clear right now. I know it is NOT my MLCer though. Not now. And maybe not ever. And I am getting to be ok with that.

[Acorn]

But I think we can reasonably say that most people who join, post about their spouses' MLC, are not coming back in the end with reconciliation stories. They may be reconciling but not returning to the forum. But I think we can safely say that reconciliation is the end result for a minority who continue to post.

There may be some members who have reconciled and not posting about it.  I’d say it is safe to conjecture that there may be a similar proportion (count purple threads vs white on HS and compare)  of old time members that have separated but have not returned to talk about it. 

To explain that point further, I am going to apply the above quote for ‘the other side.’

But I think we can reasonably say that most people who join, post about their spouses’ MLC, are not coming back in the end with separation stories.  They may be separated but not returning to the forum.  But I think we can safely say that separation/divorce is the end result for a minority who continue to post.

Anecdotes of RL reconciliation/separation are neither here, nor there.  Except, it serves the person who quotes them. 

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

The questions are fair, but also there are limited resources. Be reminded that while we have approximately 4,000 members on HS, how many active threads are going at any given time? 20 to 30?

There are in the US 84,000,000 adults ages 40-60 (Doesn't cover the entire spectrum of the MLC age, but does give us a solid number to work with). I read an article from Atlantic Monthly that states 10-20 percent of all adults will undergo MLC. That means approximately eight to sixteen million people in the US are having MLC right now. The sheer numbers alone really does not provide us a quantitative sample and a limited qualitative sample as well.

There are also 876,000 divorces each year. Many marriage counselors will state that their low statistics are due to the fact that many couples wait until it is too late to start counseling and one or both of the partners are already done and basically attend counseling as a "we tried" excuse before they end the marriage. Does that mean the advice given by the counselors is poor? I don't know.

My marriage did not reconcile and I was divorced. Does than mean the advice I give is inadequate or poor- it all depends on the person receiving it. Maybe I helped one person shift from one of complete loss to one of I will survive this mess. To me, that is a success.

After all, I have never met the MLCer. I don't provide advice or hear their side of the story. Maybe the forum would be different if we had both MLCers and LBSers. Talk about the fireworks then.

Many people come onto the forum and leave without ever posting. We don't know the results either. Many post a couple of times and then leave-no results either. Many are just simply overwhelmed with life and don't have the time to post or feel that there is nothing to post.

Success stories are rare. I would suggest that many stop posting regularly because as they reconcile, they don't want to be with their spouse and posting on a forum about that spouse- good or bad.
"Hello honey, what are you writing?"
"Oh nothing, just some quick lines about you and your crisis."

Not a good idea for reconciliation stories.

As for me, I try to concentrate on the newbies and helping them start to work on themselves. I rarely post on reconciliation as I have no experience to offer or refer back to in providing any advice other than basic encouragement. It was just recently my ex called me and apologized. We have spoken one more time since then...it wasn't one of a loving couple, but the conversation was respectful and kind on both sides. Maybe that is a start of a reconciliation of sorts. I'm not going back, but at least we can go forward with peace in our hearts.

So, I am going to ask, if we changed things.....what would we do differently? What would be the one thing that we could shift that would give us the results we seek?  It is always easy to identify the problem but not so easy to solve.

Something to ponder.....


((((Ready))))

[Sam I Am]

I would love to see this on a spin off thread and the discussion on just this continue....

I wanted to add something to the discussion. I don't want to get off on the tangent of the issue of the odds of reconciliation, and that is not what this post is about. But I think we can reasonably say that most people who join, post about their spouses' MLC, are not coming back in the end with reconciliation stories. They may be reconciling but not returning to the forum. But I think we can safely say that reconciliation is the end result for a minority who continue to post. Then really should we be trusting all the MLC advice we are being given if that is what we want in the end? Does the MLC advice actually HELP produce reconciliation, or is it harmful if we keep following it indefinitely? May it actually be useful only in the beginning but later on  we need different strategies and those later periods simply aren't covered? Do some people reconcile and not return because in the end they found that what they learned in the forum did not actually help in that reconciliation? Sometimes i wonder if the advice is any better than a placebo would be as a drug.

[lawprofessor]

With apologies to Acorn as I don't wish to trample on her discussion topic.  I would like to ask NYM if she would/could at some point add a bit to her post so that I am clear on her thoughts before I add my post so I don't go somewhere she didn't intend if she is interested. 

These questions to me go to theory rather than a direct move to what may be could or should be changed, but to differences in type, stage, and circumstances.

Lp

[Acorn]

No need to apologize, LP.
This discussion thread belongs to everyone and I’m merely the thread starter.

The advices given here can be interpreted solely through the MLC lens, and may yield serious consequences, some even negative.  So, NYM’s questions are definitely relevant to the topic at hand.

I, too, would like additional details on the question in order to delve into them further. 

[Not Applicable]

I'd like to keep it on Acorn's thread for several reasons. First of all, Acorn and I have been discussing various related topics between the two of us for several months now and so these thoughts are inspired as much from that discussion as it is from my own mind. Secondly, I am going to have limited access to the site over the next few weeks so I don't want the responsibility of a thread at the moment.

That said, I think it is simply that we have a lot of dogmatic advice given to us here but there is no empirical evidence it works. There's a lot of conventional wisdom out there too that may just be old wive's tales. We don't have studies of if you do this, the MLCer will do that, or not.

I will give you one example that comes to mind. A lot of people believe that the MLCer will want to come back when they feel the LBSer pull away. Off the top of my head, this is something I believe that BBHelp and Stayed (among many others) has said happened in their cases. Watcher recently filed for divorce and he admittedly expected that his wife might panic and start turning back once he did that, but she didn't. Does that mean the conventional wisdom is wrong, is his wife an outlier, is it a matter of the timing of the pulling away?

Why are we supposed to trust the advice over our own instinct, wishes and common sense? Does following the advice cause more mental strain than just doing whatever we want and feels best?

Until now, I see a lot of advice about what we should do but very little that we can consistently say that the LBS did and the MLCer came back (and many other LBSes may have done the same thing and they didn't come back).