[marvin4242]

I had posted this in someone thread and thought it was not the right place, so I moved it here to open up a separate discussion. The following is my opinion, would love to hear what others think.
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I do not think there is one clear definition of standing here. I am sure if there are definitions based on ones religion they may be well defined, for me it is not. It is more about who I am as a person, how I would like to view myself and be, and the fact that I knew my wife before/after and am very comfortable that something very dramatic happened to her psychologically. And I will absolutely protect myself but past that I will "stand" to help a lifelong friend if it comes to it, regardless of any reconciliation or return. That is who I am.

And I will say this carefully as to not try to come across as knowing more than others, but I have had a lot of experience and am pretty well versed in human psyche, how it functions and how sometimes it fails to. And I was fortunate enough that when my wife shattered she triggered something in me that allowed me to realize quickly what was going on with her so I detached quickly. I had a lot of opportunities to just observe her without engaging, listen, analyze etc.

And by my understanding whatever we call MLC is not a "baking," it actually a rather dramatic shattering of our loved ones psyche that they have been holding together. This probably is from fundamental deeply rooted issues, most likely from very early development, that they compensated for, hid, ran away, until like most things in the human mind the internal pressure became too big to be contained. And it is not a subtle event, I believe there is a critical tipping point and significant shattering of their internal makeup and balance as they had been holding. From here the stress and pain is too much and the rest of what we observe is many different (bad) coping mechanisms, which is an attempt to survive the pain and confusion.

So they are not baking, they are in a very bad crises. In order to even begin to recover they will have to start finding some foothold, something to be able to face the pain. All their attempts in rewriting, replay, etc, is trying to not face the pain and confusion that is flooding them. We have all seen it, the narcissism is from survival level pain (for some, some were covert narcissists and stop hiding it), complete inability to think and remember, confusion, anger, and the displacement of all their pain onto the person they love the most and cared for the most. They also exist in a very severe state of disassociation, that is the "shark eyes" and the flat affect. We all use this technique in small degrees and sometimes larger when things become too difficult and its overwhelming. They seem to disassociate almost completely due to the intolerable pain.

So this idea that they are baking, to "stir the pot" or to "help" them is, I am sorry to say, is naive and comes from a complete lack of understanding of human psychology and an oversimplification of how dramatic a collapse this is. Yes there are bigger psychological events in human experience, but not many. Only reason I bring this up is without taking in what this all means one may misread what is happening, that simple rest, or some thinking, or a hot bath are all "healing." That to me is like watching someone who has massive gaping wounds and is bleeding out put on a tiny bandaid and going "oh its going so well don't you think?" Or to go to someone who is barely holding any semblance of themselves together and ask them to do a task, or consider some detail, or take a quiz. If I am in a lot of physical pain please do not come to me and ask me to take a survey, same applies here.

I have no idea what is the difference between the MLCers who go into survival and self protection mode, and then at some point start to reassemble, and the ones who never do. I believe the reason what we do has no impact is the same as above, they are drowning at the bottom of giant ocean with large blocks of concrete at their feet, so us giving them tiny floatation devices or bailing out a couple of buckets of water is not going to make a difference. But I think when they are at their limit and anything we do that increases the pressure that has already become intolerable CAN be quite negative. So sadly we can't help even if we want to, but boy can we make it much worse.

This is all my opinion. I throw it out there, but I got to watch this play out for 1.5 years and managed to remain mostly an observer, to learn, to understand. And I got the chance to do it because I wasn't threatened, I had security in areas others do not get to have. I just got to watch the fragments of the woman I love swim around in a vortex of pain, confusion, anger, sadness. And then fade away. Going down with her would have made no difference to her.

[Not Applicable]

I'm not a big fan of psychology, but I agree with your overall post. I would substitute psychiatric for psychology because while I agree this is something that resulted from stuff that happened early in life, it had an impact on their brain and this is a dysfunction of their brain.

I'm not making excuses for their behavior but there are certain telltale things that cannot be explained as voluntary, e.g. the lack of memory imprinting (I believe they don't forget, they just don't remember in the first place, two different brain processes), the inability to feel emotions, the disappearance of benign speech habits that should not disappear simply because our relationship changed, intermittent imitation in speech patterns of people who abused them during their childhoods and the loss of ability to understand an language they didn't know as a child when in one of those states.

I've reached a point where I feel comfortable calling out my H on specific bad behavior toward me, but I still see overall there is something that simply has gone dormant in his brain and been replaced by something from before he met me. And that is involuntary. There is absolutely nothing, NOTHING I can do to influence him. It's like certain receptors in his brain are just shut off. Newbies may not see this yet, but that's because they slowly enter into this state, so they think there is something they can do, but it's only a matter of time before they shut down.

In my H's case I believe the main trigger that brought it on and continues to aggravate it is our moving in with MIL. From talking to her and his sister and what he told me long ago, i can piece together how he is reliving his childhood or in some ways trying to turn it upside down and that was a very bad childhood so naturally he is in turmoil. I have really made a concerted effort to stay away from anything that smells like his childhood because I don't want him to associate me with that experience, but it can be a challenge with an at-home MLCer.

MLC is not about the marriage, but it effects it. If there are no major childhood issues, and granted the LBS may not be aware of them, then I have to say, I don't think you can call it MLC and you have to face the fact that for some reason, the marriage was just not working for your spouse anymore and they decided to leave. MLC does provide a good cover story for LBSes whose marriages weren't that great, who maybe weren't the best spouses themselves, because it allows them to deflect responsibility off themselves for what happened. And I am sure there are people here who are doing that. No one will admit it, but you can sometimes read between the lines and see that.

Now hot baths are like leeches. Nineteenth century medicine. However, there is also a lack of any sort of advice out there how to help the MLCer get the help they need. Google how to deal with someone with PTSD, you won't find ANYTHING that tells you how to deal with someone who has PTSD who doesn't know it. All advice assumes the person has been diagnosed. And nothing tells you what to do if you suspect your spouse has PTSD, or worse, CPTSD. Every damn single piece of advice assumes the sufferer knows what they are suffering from. And therein lies one of the hugest challenges for us as LBSes, we can see quite clearly the childhood sources of their problems, there are probably certain therapies etc. that could help them, but there is no way in hell we can help them to see that might help them. They don't know what is wrong with them, and we are probably the last person they want advice from. It's like watching someone through one of those mirrors in a police interrogation room, but they can't see back. All you can do is watch.

[Father5]

HI marvin ,

   I totally agree, Something in them is broken and has been for a long time. I think I was blinded by love or maybe I just didn't want to see it but I knew something was wrong with her. That this had been manifesting in her way before I met her. Then her dad passed and BOOM! My family goes up in smoke. Did most of you guys see soemthing wrong in your W/H before this all started ?

[AlvinTheMaker]

I'll add the magic words: we all have sample of one. Nothing more, nothing less.

MLC as the name suggests is crisis that happens at midlife. What lies beneath the title is likely various mental conditions, that all peak with personal crisis destroying marriage/relationship. But each story is different (with some overlapping similarities).

Whats common with everyone here is that they are our partners/spouses. And we all are here because their personal crisis dragged our marriages/relationships to crisis.

Maybe this is oversimplified view of MLC, but thats all there is IMHO  Anything else is comparing each individual story to another, and trying to spot  some differences, and then classify them into groups (such as wallowers).

Alvin

[Anon]

I get what you are saying Marvin - they are broken and then the day comes when they shatter.   I do think the 'baking' analogy is appropriate though.   They blow the top off their issues and then they need to sort through the rubble, one piece at a time, hold it up to the light, examine it, and hopefully resolve the issue and then,,, move onto the next piece of rubble.  Gradually over time the issues that led to the shattering are addressed and healed.  When that's all done, they have left the crisis.  So 'baking' is just one word of many that may be appropriate to describe this painfully slow process of facing their issues, fixing them, and then closing the door on them once resolved and moving forward as psychologically integrated people.   

I'm not sure how many mlcer's get fully baked or how long that takes.   It seems a lot of them turn off the oven at some point and the baking never gets finished.  So then they are 'half-baked'... more or less. 

[Treasur]

Great post, Marvin.
Great follow up by NYM.
And I speak as someone who had PTSD but didn't realise I had PTSD until I had tried a bunch of other options......and someone who knows what it feels like to have a brain rewired and the kind of weird stuff like memory problems etc.
Looking back, my h had buckets of FOO and unresolved significant trauma. He was an unexploded bomb and it is remarkable really that he did not implode before he did. Perhaps our relationship was strong and loving enough that it postponed it for a while. My foolishness and/or arrogance was not understanding enough about how this stuff works that I assumed he was more healthy than he actually was. I could not imagine the darkness of complexity of it until I experienced my own version with PTSD.
I also find 'baking' too gentle and too one directional a phrase for the brutality of the kind of unravelling that I think is involved either in breaking or in healing. For me, it was like fighting and sharp splinters and epic failures in my own head 

[terra]

Marvin and NYM, thank you both for terrific posts here.

In h’s case it is definitely mountains of childhood abuse and trauma from birth, coupled with a bona fide and very deep sex/porn addiction. All these things rewire, hijack, or otherwise inhibit normal brain chemistry, structure, and functioning.

From my sample of 1 perspective, a lot of shattering happens to whatever degree to most people at midlife, or on or around key decade ages. In my own family of origin, when things went to he11, it happened at 40, 50, 60 years of age. That seems to be true in other families also, although maybe that’s just the cluster of my own experience or circle of people.

We either sort the rubble, or keep running from it. H is only one person in my life who keeps running from it.

I have to lean on Christ to get through this. I am surrounded by rubble myself now and sorting, always sorting, and it is very slow going. I have PTSD or CPTSD symptoms and I have no doubt I’ve got some brain damage from all this on top of my own childhood and other deep trauma. Beyond the neuroscience and psychology education or understanding, finally it feels like faith and Christ are all I’ve got.

I don’t really expect anyone will ever have a satisfactory and structured answer for what MLC really is, or why it happens to some and not others, or whether it is “curable” or undoable or what have you. I’m still glad we have communities like this one in which to say our truths, explore the whats and whys, and find comfort or at least know we aren’t crazy or alone in this experience.

It will be interesting to see, sometime years from now, if more studies or research or explanations come through.

Thanks again for sound thoughts.

[Not Applicable]

Alvin that is a copout explanation. Unless one is willing to distinguish those with a serious illness from bad marriages there will never be scientific progress that could help those with serious illness. Looking at it from the perspective of our relationships only is selfish. Don't want to call it mlc? Fine. Call it bad childhood leftovers disease. But don't lump it together with bad marriages. Look at their actions independent of our relationships and the difference is clear. No forum member is going to admit they were a crap spouse. So relationships tell us nothing

[marvin4242]

There is so much interesting stuff here. First the idea that its not “easy” to tell a bad marriage from MLC. I call complete shenanigans on that one. Yes there are people who may not have seen a failing marriage, and maybe it would be painful to admit that. But that doesn’t mean most of us are not very well aware of what happened. I am a pretty observant guy, I didn’t “miss” what was going on in my marriage. My wife was hiding deeply a lot of things that were going on inside, not just from me but from herself. When my wife went from her normal “I love you” on Sunday to a “I never loved you” on Tuesday out of the blue and I was trying to sort out the joke, that is not a “failing” or bad marriage. Something really tipped over fast, and I have heard this over and over from talking to many LBSes (and reading obviously here and elsewhere). Looking back with 20/20 hindsight I reconstructed the bits that were leaking out, but then again it was easy after the fact.

Here is a simple test: did you have ANY idea one week before the first BD that your spouse would do ANYTHING like that?

Here is a second test: did you ever see your spouse with a flat disassociated affect saying something like “I know this is important but I’ll give you 20 minutes then I want to go to sleep” or answer your question about “what would you like to have for dinner” with “you get what you want, I think we should get a divorce?” Abnormal is easy to spot.

My main concern for a lot of LBSes who try to oversimplify a complicated process is that they will get more hurt. Illusion of control is very important to our well being sometimes, but it can also lead to great harm. MLCers go to great length to avoid the depth of their pain, but I see that a lot of LBSes early on also do their own version of minimizing the damage. And its completely understandable, it is so much like having a fruit you are holding explode in your hand and tear you to pieces that parts of your mind can not grasp nor deal with the unreality of what just happened. Doesn’t mean it is healthy nor wise to stay in that denial state for very long, in order to start healing connection to reality is a must.

As for PTSD, my early “catch” was when I realized the way my wife was acting had completely triggered my childhood abandonment trauma, that I was literally existing as a 10 year old without realizing it. And catching that made me realize something was very wrong with the women who I had known intimately and had shared everything with for 21 years (and vice verse), who taught me to have empathy for myself and cared deeply for my well being. Because I realized she no longer registered what was happening inside and around her.

I greatly encourage any LBS who can to seek PTSD and trauma treatment. Even certain meditative repetitive yogas can help alleviate and release trauma. And yes we all have a “sample of one” but there is a lot of commonality in how our minds and psyche work, we are not all built from scratch. We tend to use similar methods of coping and do tend to fall into patterns of behavior, it doesn’t mean we are not unique. But its simple untrue that nothing can be learned from what has come before.

[AlvinTheMaker]

The difficulty with any collective definition comes down to individual perspective.  For example there is no solid definition of "normal behaviour".  There is only our individual perception of it. Put a group of 100 people together, and you get 100 more or less different definitions for "nornal behaviour". One could try to classify it. for example any behaviour that happens at least n times is normal. But where to draw the line? And to be scientifically valid, one would need a group that is not homogeneous (like LBS) and large enough (say 250 people or more).

Another problem is that MLC/LBS  is entirely subjective...Take for example physical pain. For one person sticking a needle might feel as level 2 pain, for another it could be level 10 pain.  Same with MLC/LBS.... It is very much possible that a whole lot of MLC go as something else, and those of us here are just some extreme

For these reasons my definition of MLC was, and remains as wide as it was.

Possibly more interesting would be turn eyes to us, LBS. What makes us "us".

Alvin