[Finding Joy]

Ok.  It’s not made up!  Have a good day, and believe what you chose to believe.

Everyone seems quick to find fault with the US, we have plenty, but so do other countries.  People who are not native to here, come, stay and complain....

The stay part is puzzling to me if where you come from is better. 

[marvin4242]

FJ: I do not mean this in any disrespectful way, but you are simply saying things to me and others that are not true. I want to start with the idea that Canada is somehow "less free." This is not true. Even now you are telling the citizen of another country what their rights are. Have you actually lived in Canada and experienced this? Be careful of the amount of purposeful misinformation that is circulating in "social media."

In fact the belief that US has "all the freedom" is one of the many erroneous beliefs propagated in the US. And those of us who travel and live in other countries know this not to be true. Many countries match or exceed our level of personal freedom. It is one of many mistaken views held by a lot of Americans that is actually quite harmful. But a few notes specifically below.

Marvin, I do believe in this case the government needed to bail us out, however they added in many extras that were not needed(in the billions).  I was only responding to your comment that the US is behind other governments who back their companies payroll by 80 percent.  Also, if we had only closed down hotspots versus the entire country and used extreme caution in the other areas, we would not have needed a stimulus on this scale.

Well I am not sure where this belief comes from. The wave of Covid through US is in no way passed yet, so how can we know? The major cities and areas have reacted, a wave will follow in other areas of the country. Not necessarily the same way but you are talking like this story is already written.

Also I am curious what parts of the stimulus do you believe was unnecessary?

You believe the government can be in charge of our lives and not infringe upon our rights.  I do not.  In a perfect world your statement about the the government being a support and us still having freedom would be true.  However what I see is the more powers the government gets, the more they want.  The higher the taxes the less individual choice and freedom.

Again this is not my view, I never said government can be in charge of our lives. In fact our own constitution states that our government derives its powers and rights from its citizens, we vote. There are also right explicitly laid out that can not given away. Its a concept that has existed before the US, governance by the consent of the governed.

And btw money is NOT the central facet. The US has an obsession with taxes and money. That is only a small fraction of this "consent." Money without freedom, money without a functioning society is simply worthless. How we want to be as a society is the domain of HEALTHY political discourse. This is not what is happening in the US. And citizens don't just get to shout about rights, they have a RESPONSIBILITY as citizens (please read the writing of our founding fathers, including the Federalist Papers to see how this is the case).

Socialism leads to communism because the more power the government has, the more they want.  The more rights we give away, the less freedom we have.  With each crises they take away more of our rights.  With socialism all are dependent on the government, that dependance opens the door to more and more government control.  This is how over time societies lose freedom.  I believe individuals have a responsibility to do what is right, we should not be forced by the government.  Guidelines yes, but not forced.  I absolutely support the phased reopening here and the decisions left to each state.  I also believe hotspots should stay closed.  We should follow social distancing, and those at risk(which includes my family) should be extra vigilant.

Again with many apologies your definition of socialism is simply incorrect. I mean if I take the word out as you define it and just say "I don't want to blindly give rights to the government" I think most sane people would agree. Problem is I think you have been sold a bill of goods about that word. Socialism as it exists in a lot of countries is not at all what you think it is. In fact some of the most free countries in the world are close to real "Socialism" but strangely they are closest also to a true Christian philosophy of helping the least of us.

I do not believe every time we have a crises we should put aside our constitutional rights.  Of course those protest should have been done differently, but those people are desperate and being desperate sometimes leads to poor choices.

You are saying you are not being political, but your words say otherwise.  You think the government is the answer.  I believe individual responsibility and individual accountability is the answer as well as common sense.

Again please do not state my beliefs, or please point out where I said the above. I do not believe it is common sense to ignore knowledge, science, years of history, philosophy, political science in the made up name of "freedom." And again as I asked please point out what constitutional right you think has been violated. Because I hear a lot of people just yell words out without being able to explain or backup what they are talking about. There is no constitutional right that says you are allowed to freely go wherever you want. You are not even allowed to drive on public roads without a license. And the right to assemble does not equate to assembling anywhere, under any conditions, and as you want. That is actually called anarchy.

I am pretty sure that is not what you are saying.

[Nerissa]

The link Marvin posted about suggestions for reopening is Tony Blair's initiative.  You can find him on news programmes discussing it - saying we face the most difficult decision he has ever experienced and this is an attempt to be constructive.

I like it because it sets out choices in a way most people are able to understand and it isn’t partisan so it is reassuring to me. 

It’s interesting that at times like this, a state government is so important and the lack of it has shown up in the way the UK has not communicated properly because it isn’t ‘joined up enough.

Scotland and Wales which have socialist administrations appear to have no shortage of Ppe for example.  And I have friends in those places who have been tested where necessary, without ado aswell.

[Ready2Transform]

People who are not native to here, come, stay and complain....

All those pesky settlers. Glad to see Native Americans come into the argument. What tribe are you (Ioway here)?

[Nas]

I do not believe every time we have a crises we should put aside our constitutional rights.  Of course those protest should have been done differently, but those people are desperate and being desperate sometimes leads to poor choices.

You are saying you are not being political, but your words say otherwise.  You think the government is the answer.  I believe individual responsibility and individual accountability is the answer as well as common sense.

I've not seen two more fundamentally contradictory statements in some time.

[Nerissa]

FJ, perhaps you might look at information about Scandinavian countries with high taxes and socialism.  Iceland; Denmark; Sweden; Norway.  They are among the happiest counties in the World with some of the highest standards of living.  Take a look at the way they are dealing with this crisis and how their citizens are responding and being cared for.  What does freedom actually mean if you don’t live in a relatively equal society with strong community ties and a physically healthy population?

[Finding Joy]

Marvin!  The specific information I am speaking of about Canada is very true!  It is only in this particular area of free speech.  I offered to send her the info privately because it is so off topic.  It is not misinformation.  You are over generalizing my words.  Also, you are saying I am spreading misinformation, but have no clue what I am speaking about. 

I did not say America has the most freedom.  In fact I said, our rights are being infringed upon and I want less government involvement, not more.  Have a nice day!

If the government controls your wallet, they control your ability to eat, pay your bills, live.  Of course money matters.  I have paid double for my children’s education for years at great cost because of lack of choice.  When the government takes your money they take your choice.

[Finding Joy]

NAS!  Those circumstances are few and far between.  Outliers.  Over all we are following the rules and staying home.

[Finding Joy]

Nerissa, Absolutely!  Those countries are in a sweet spot!  Currently they have a decent balance, that said, I would not prefer that sort of set up, because you have less individual freedoms and too much government dependance.  Parental rights are a concern of mine in some of those countries. 

That seems to be coming soon to the US as well....

[Finding Joy]

I have work to do, and do not have anymore time to devote to this.  I agree to disagree with you all♥️

Ready-I fail to understand how Native Americans come into play.  What happened to them was wrong.  In fact it plays into my point.  Settlers came over and believed their way of life was superior.  They looked down on the Native American’s way instead of gleaning the good things.  We want people to come here, but not come to complain.  Not come to change our way of life.