[Ready2Transform]

I'm no expert Ready, but I've heard that in a lot of bipolar cases, as with MLC, that the person who suffers from it often doesn't want those around them to point out that anything is "wrong" with them for want of a better word? Is that the case?

You better believe it! My xH tried to convince his psychiatrist that he was actually not bipolar.  He eventually took himself off of his meds cold turkey (bad choice!) and stopped going. BD followed.

Ready2Transform, thank you. Patience is something I'll be needing to learn. As for bipolar, that would make sense. I've had a mutual friend quietly speculate as much, but I believe I overheard her internal thoughts more than an intentional point on her part.

Understood. I've had friends too that have had bipolar partners that tried to dissuade me from standing initially. There are pros and cons. On one hand, a manic episode will likely end sooner than later. On the other, the underlying bipolar disorder will never just go away. It's all just so complicated. But time and self-focus help you get in a better spot, no matter what the outcome.

[Treasur]

My anxiety is through the roof and I jump when I hear an unexpected sound walking around town.

I’d like to encourage you to take this seriously as opposed to just enduring it bc neuroplasticity is a real thing imho...we can habituate to anxiety unconsciously and you don’t want to do that, my friend. (And both anxiety and depression are pretty normal LBS responses, trauma reactions, so please don’t think there is anything wrong or abnormal about you xxx) What are you trying currently to calm your nervous system down? What works, what doesn’t?  Any experience of anxiety or significant depression in your past?

Happy to talk more about things that might help if that’s useful.

[zartheit]

This is a lot quicker of an update than I would have expected... I received an email from my wife asking for a divorce. It was all business and could have been a work email. This is our first interaction in around 4 months. She found an amicable divorce package and filled out her side. She is proposing we each keep whatever we have, as our finances are already separated. It's very reasonable, very fair. She'll even cover the fees. All I need to do is fill out my side and wait a few months.

I don't know how to respond. I am not going to block, hinder, stall, etc, this process but I also don't want this. I would like to have an in person conversation. While that sounds reasonable to me, I don't know what I'd get out of such a meeting. I'm not looking for answers, not really. I guess I'm thinking if she can see me and hear me it would have an effect on her (I know I know; I've got work to do). If I'm being honest, it feels like she made this decision a long time ago.

I also feel no relief. I was hoping if it came to this that I'd feel free. I do not. I've got work to do.

I don't know what I am expecting to get out of posting here. I guess I can share my feelings in case someone stumbles across this in a similar situation. I'm upset. I'm not distraught like I was when I came home to an empty house on our anniversary, or even when she dropped the bomb. I'm proud of myself for that. I'm hurt that, in my interpretation (I know I know; I've got work to do) she didn't deem our relationship worth a single conversation. The last thing she said to me was "I can't be in a relationship but I want to leave the door open", and then I receive a cold email requesting a divorce. I thought I had let go of most of the hope but I now see just how much I've been keeping around.

And even with all that hurt, I know that I'll be alright. It doesn't make it any easier. Lifting 200lbs is still 200lbs, but you grow to handle it. I'm grateful for all of the advice on making changes for yourself, living a life for yourself, and focusing on your own future. I would not be in this place of (relative) peace had I not followed it. I have no regrets in how I showed up. Life is hard, complicated, and unpredictable, but I can look myself in the mirror and be proud.

I'm going to treat myself to dinner and watch a movie I've been putting off.


Treasur, everyone on my dad's side is anxious. I have no techniques to manage it aside from exercise and baths. Any protips would be appreciated, and thank you for all your concern so far. It makes me feel good to have a stranger show such concern.

[JohnnyBravo]

I don't know how to respond. I am not going to block, hinder, stall, etc, this process but I also don't want this. I would like to have an in person conversation. While that sounds reasonable to me, I don't know what I'd get out of such a meeting.

That was my approach, and that of many others here. For some reason my ex-wife wanted me to contact my lawyer and start things. I replied that I wouldn't hinder things, but she knew who my lawyer was, and she could take the steps to initiate "her" divorce. I wasn't going to do it for her. I did talk to her once after she filed; as expected, there wasn't really a point, but I did feel that I had done everything I could, and I can live with myself.

I also feel no relief. I was hoping if it came to this that I'd feel free. I do not. I've got work to do.

Nope. Each one of these things is another shock to the system, or at least a good needle jab. I did find that recovery times are quicker. And what's she going to do to you now? File for divorce? Nope, she already did. Mediation wasn't such a shock, it was more of a WTF situation; we didn't see each other (she had moved, and it would normally be separate rooms anyway), but once she started telling lies to get more of a settlement, vs. her former fiercely self-reliant self, I knew she was in really bad shape. She didn't tell big lies, just enough to act like she was dependent on me for our entire relationship, and going to court in my state of residence would be a risky proposition due to legal precedents. But, I knew I could recover much more easily than she could. I just have a few more spousal support payments left, and then I'm all mine. (She shouldn't have gotten any support at all, just the split of existing assets.)

I have no regrets in how I showed up. Life is hard, complicated, and unpredictable, but I can look myself in the mirror and be proud.

When it comes right down to it, that's all we can hope for. Hang in there, friend.

JB

[Treasur]

I’m sorry about this latest turn in events, zartheit, but I think your head is being very wise in questioning the benefit of some of your first emotional reactions about wanting to have a conversation etc. My only practical thought - bc I think you co-own a house - is that it may be worth a few hundred dollars to get a lawyer to cast an eye over any agreement you are making. Imho, when there are no kids, a clean break agreement is best if it is possible....no one needs to keep painful chaos in their life after divorce.

Reading between the lines, it sounds as if your stbxw has been hunting for external magic happy fixes for the last few years....moves, and houses and jobs along with some less savoury ones. This is just her latest attempt and it really says nothing about you or your wider value as a partner at all. Having said that, if you are an emotionally healthy broadly sane adult, this kind of discard and the losses that come along with it is painful. No getting around that....and it takes time to find your feet and emotional balance after it. But tbh, how your w handled this situation from beginning to end says a great deal about the kind of person she is and not much at all about the kind of person you are. Time and emotional distance will probably throw up some useful lessons though on what drew you to this kind of person or made some of her behaviour acceptable (ish) to you, and this will help you to grow a deeper perspective on your own values and boundaries.

But i’m sorry bc I know how painful this all must feel.

On the anxiety issue.
I think you mentioned seeing a therapist but I think it was in the context of marriage counselling? Unless you happen to find that person particularly useful, i’d suggest you drop that and find an IC who understands trauma and anxiety and who can support your own rebuilding. Part of that imho involves getting a fix on your own actual experience of anxiety and how it gets in your own way, before this experience and now. Bc it is hard to tackle something until we get a sense of the nature of the problem it causes for us. Imho there is a difference between living with anxiety as opposed to living after anxiety, but it is a chipping away kind of process that takes a bit of work and time. And sometimes that requires almost a kind of befriending of your anxiety and a bit of a dig into its roots in your own life experience. There are different things that work well for different people - some are physical like exercise, breathing etc and some are more about one’s mindset like CBT or NLP techniques that change your lens to create different feedback loops. But again imho, this stuff is hard work so you need an informed partner to support your own work who understands more about how anxiety works than you might do right now.

One of the things I found most helpful was to drop my own mental label a bit, or reframe it anyway. Why? Bc there’s a lot of shame and helplessness and self-blame that goes along with thinking of oneself as a person with anxiety. I found it helped to separate Me as a person from my amygdala....in fact, I called her Lucy the Lizard bc she seemed to have a mind of her own sometimes  ...but it helped me tremendously to see anxiety/fear as something my system experienced rather than who I was. A fine line maybe but an important one I found.

So find a decent IC who gets anxiety and trauma, who encourages you to navigate past it rather than just find ways to live with it.

Two books that helped me a lot.
Bessel Van Der Kolk’s ‘The Body Keeps the Score’ on how trauma creates certain responses that can getbus stuck, how our nervous system works and how it is a physical experience rather than a cognitive one, felt rather than thought.
And Russell Kennedy’s ‘Anxiety Rx’ that takes a really different and very practical take on what anxiety is and some different ways we can tackle it. He’s an MD, a psychologist and someone who has experienced anxiety long-term. It was eye-opening for me as I pulled myself out of PTSD not least bc it encouraged me to see anxiety differently 

[forthetrees]

So sorry about the sudden cold email. I get the urge to have a face-to-face but having done that I would find a way to avoid it. My face-to-face was another opportunity to receive an emotional kick in the teeth.

She sent an email b/c she has already emotionally distanced herself. It could be cowardice, lack of caring, lack of respect, ignorance to the effect of the cold email or an intentional desire to inflict another blow. Some MLCers actually say that they do deliberately cruel things so that the LBS "will get the message." It can waste a lot of your time trying to figure out her motivation for doing it this way- is your time worth being spent on that?

I would be sure that the agreement is fair and that she cannot come back later and seek more from you- as in when you sell the house or retire some day.

Even while this whole experience was happening to me I could see that now ex had had way more time to process and was already steps ahead of me in disengaging. You are still processing the initial news and now have the added load of divorce finality. Give yourself the grace and space to process and in a sense the dissolution of the marriage was rigged in that she was planning for its demise way before she let you in on it. Not being given a chance to address issues is a basic unfairness of the experience and somehow, some way you find a way to put that aside in order to go forward in your journey. It never does become fair.

[Reinventing]

My face-to-face was another opportunity to receive an emotional kick in the teeth.

Even while this whole experience was happening to me I could see that now ex had had way more time to process and was already steps ahead of me in disengaging.

Agreed. Not only are they further along, but they are deep in a fantasy life that hasn't had time to unravel.

Do whatever protects you, especially now while you are getting yourself stabilized. You can always alter things in the future. Pay attention to how you feel and what helps you.

[UrsaMajor]

The generalization here is that a Do will not stop a reconnection/reconciliation down the road if that is something that BOTH parties want and the needed work has been done on both sides (mostly on the side of the MLC'er though). However, like the others have already said, it might be worth the added expense to have a legal eagle cast an eye over the documentation to make sure it is as amicable as you think it is and fair.

I too had a bit of the JB experience where my MLC'er wanted me to do the work for her D and I simply said "No, I do not want a divorce but I will not stand in your way. I will not, however, do the work nor will I take the responsibility." It ended up taking her nearly 2 years to complete the process but it was, in the end, HER divorce and she has to won the results and the consequences. I filled out and returned all the required paperwork as soon as I got it so there could be no accusations of stalling on my part.

[zartheit]

JohnnyBravo
I made a joke about "spousal maintenance" in my reply to her. Sorry you are having to pay those bills.

Treasur
I am seeing my own therapist. We just talk, which feels weird, but it seems to be helping. It's not hurting, at any rate. I do appreciate your characterization of Lucy. Your understanding has likely inspired my own formulations of the "other" aspects of myself. It's all super unintuitive!

Also, adding these books to my queue. Thank you.

forthetrees,  Reinventing
Thanks for the perspective. I did not ask for a meetup. I don't regret it.

UrsaMajor
It's such a strange place to be where marriage is just a piece of paper. I am slowly wrapping my head around it. And thanks for sharing your own experience. I'm with you, this is all on them.


Here's some classic journaling. I'm feeling good today. I have had a very busy few weeks.

I didn't ask to meet up with her. I filled out the form and attached it to an email after getting a shrug from an attorney. She never replied. I've still not heard anything back about the divorce. It's funny to read about this type of behavior and then be IN it. I'm not deluding myself as she's likely waiting for a jolt of adrenaline to pull the trigger. I'm sure it'll happen but who knows when her internal kaleidoscope will align on it.

I celebrated my birthday by (attempting to go) hiking. I went into the middle of nowhere and got my car stuck in snow. I was rescued by a prison work crew. Great group of guys, hope they didn't murder anyone. I was in the area of where me and my soon-to-be-ex wife used to live and decided to visit our old house and neighborhood. I felt... nothing. The memories came up and I appreciated them. That was it. I felt almost disappointed, strangely enough. I had a fantastic time even if it wasn't the day I envisioned.

After that I attended a monster truck rally and wore one of those hats that can hold two beers. I received an intense amount of eye contact and many compliments. It was a great evening.

Following that I got back into a light groove at work. I'm not nearly as focused as I used to be, but I was able to make some progress on a project. I also began on boarding for a part-time professor role I was accepted for. I am a lot more excited about this than I realized. I am nervous and looking forward to starting. I've never taught before so we'll see how that goes.

I sent her an email about taxes. She sent a robotic reply and then complained about the weather. It felt incredibly strange, which makes sense. I didn't dwell on it.

I am feeling quite up at the moment. That being said, it has not been smooth waters this whole time. My wife and I made a blanket together a few years after we began dating and it has been on my bed this entire time. One evening I leaned into symbolism and ritualistically unmade it. That was quite an emotional night and it rocked me for a week. I believe it was the right decision.

Here are some (believe it or not, this is heavily summarized!) of the thoughts I've had ripped from my personal journal, in chronological order so you can see the cycling.


I just told myself, "Sorry <zartheit>". I felt better. I never realized *I* could do this. I always thought it had to come from someone else. It could only MEAN something if someone else anointed it. For some reason, I believed me saying it felt like a lie. No, not a lie. It felt like a ghost. It must be given some corporal form, and that was other people saying it. Now I know it is all inside me. I can actuate those same regions myself. Tightening feedback loops. This is obvious in hindsight... I process the sound, so something internal must massage those regions. I don't know why I refused to attempt that myself.


At one time I feel that it is over, that she has hurt and betrayed me deeply for no reason. I am scared, sad, lonely, hurt. At other times, I have compassion for her. While she did hurt me she is a wounded animal. She is thrashing in her own pain and I was standing too close. And at other times, more rarely, I don't care about her. She is a fool. She is truly lost. She is delusional. Other times, I am angry with her.

Some times, I think she is doing this FOR ME. She loves and cares about me so deeply that she is playing 4D chess, and the only way to help ME navigate her crisis is to set me free so I can't see her destroy herself. I recognize the thought as cognitive dissonance to ease my suffering. People are not that complicated. No one would take such an insane gamble. No one would do anything so insane with that as the objective. But I am trying to be compassionate for myself. To truly feel such a thought shows how deeply I love her, how deeply I'm hurt. Loving someone is NOT a weakness. Having compassion for someone that wronged you is NOT a weakness. Wanting to see the best in someone is NOT a weakness. All of the origins of this thought are rooted in immense strength, compassion, and love. These are beautiful. I am trying to apply these gifts to a situation that does not involve me. There is no weakness, only more attachment than will serve me.


Reality is big and complicated. I am carving out tracts, little wormholes through an apple. My tunnel is minuscule. I'll never be able to comprehend the orchard, let alone the planet. I'm ok with that. I always wanted to scale the meta without end. I now recognize that I won't. I can't. No one can. I can push it a bit but that's all I got. I'll have to put my faith in something wider, a process. I guess this is why people have children, go into government, etc. I see the motivations now. The desire to touch infinity.


I used to believe that to feel your emotions was to give in to them and be driven by them. Emotions were volatile, unpredictable, dangerous. You had to live the stoic life INTERNALLY, not just externally. I now understand that is not the case. Emotions are senses that must be acknowledged. They are individuals. They have their own needs. You must parent them. You're time-sharing your consciousness, be a good steward and make room for all parties that may occupy the driver seat.

I no longer view myself as a unified whole. I view myself as a collections of strategies, personalities, quirks. Basically a twitching mass of ancestors wrapped in skin. This isn't good or bad, just how it is. It makes treating the various emotions with compassion much easier. I truly BELIEVE the emotions now. I sit and listen to what they have to say, even if I don't like it, am frightened or disgusted by it. And once I sit with that information for a bit, I can see the utility in it. I've ALWAYS been able to see the utility in it. The pettiness, the meanness, the hatred. All of these things have their utility. And I appreciate that, where they're coming from.

I am trying to be a good steward. I am listening to the input of everyone involved in the enterprise. All of their feedback is useful, which doesn't mean to say that it will be used. A lot of these emotions would work fantastic in different situations. I am glad that I can adjudicate their application. I am glad the information was presented to me. There is no shame. These strategies are all valid, somewhere. All I need to do is decide where that is.


My love for her exists. I feel it. I feel it deeply. It is... heavy, massive, it is the sun. And I've placed this star in a box. I've put that box on a shelf. I hung that shelf in a basement. I will sometimes peek into the box but I won't be blinded by it. It doesn't serve me. I appreciate its beauty, its depth, its vastness, its power. It is inspiring that I can create such a thing. I will never be ashamed of this. I will never apologize for this. But I will not be driven by it either.

I do not believe she will "make it right". I do not believe she has the capacity. I do not believe she has structured her life in any way to reach such an understanding, let alone to go through with the hard work of realizing it, manifesting it. She is a beautiful and damaged soul. I love her, flaws and all. But love isn't enough. Her flaws have proven quite dangerous and once burned twice shy. Will she put on rubber caps to those spikes? Will she file down the spikes? Will she embrace the spikes? Will she be delicate and mindful of the spikes? I don't know. I don't need to know. She has my address.


It's all hurting again. It's hard. The future is a bit concerning. I feel lonely and small. I feel weak, like a failure.

I am thinking of her, again. What is she up to, why did she do it, what is in her head. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

It all feels... REAL again. It's like her being gone was summer break or something. Now it feels just real. I imagine I'll phase in and out of this for a while. It's always a gut punch.

At these times I get nostalgic. I want to feel her. I want to sense her. I want to look at photos. I want to hear her voice. I know it won't help me. The allure is so strong. It's like, I might be able to just WILL us back into existence. It's cargo-cult relationship building. Revisit all of the hotspots and magically spawn a new us.


These cycles are the process. You're up, you're down. You think the same thought every day and every day you comfort that same thought. It feels like you're not going anywhere, but you're just nudging that mindset along. The work is doing the same thing every single time. It's making the choice every single time. Well not every single time, but the attempt. To recognize and to apply as much as you're able. Like a coach blowing a whistle and having to do push-ups constantly throughout the day.


I miss the deepness of the hurt, the sharpness of the pain, the utter desolation of the loss. It was so pure, so simple, so straightforward. All I had to do was survive. A victory was one foot in front of the other. I could take pride in getting out of bed.

Now I'm back in the land of light AND shadow. The nuance of grey strains my eyes.

I'm now back in the driver seat of my life. I miss the clarifying drive of roadrash. I miss the comfort of the chauffeur.


I'm unhappy. I'm waiting for happiness to strike me. What am I waiting for? Why am I waiting?

It doesn't feel right. I must wait for it to feel right. Why? Why must it feel right?

I don't know. I recognize that there isn't really some causal chain. But it feels like there is. If then. Implication.

If there is no implication, what am I waiting for? Why not be happy right now?

I don't know.


It's not right. It's not fair. It's not just.

And it doesn't matter. It hurts. It's hard. It's painful. But you're stronger.

It doesn't make it fair or right. The whole situation is unacceptable, and yet that is exactly what you must do. And that recursive chain is completely tarnished with this injustice. It will NEVER be condoned but this is how it is. You are able to shoulder this burden of injustice, not because it is right or because you deserve it, but because of your strength. Your strength of will, of character, of virtues and spirit, shine through this black cloud. None of this is right, but you can persist, and you will.


You miss her. You want to be over her, beyond her. You want this now. Fast. Quickly.

But that isn't how it IS. That isn't where you ARE. That isn't life.

Life isn't fun. Fun is a part of life. You want to move on so you can have fun, but that would be skipping out on a part of what life IS.

So let's just sit in this discomfort, in this liminal space. We won't be here forever and we may never come back here. Why not appreciate this experience for the unique slice of life that it is? Why not be grateful that we were able to sample and endure such a trial? It doesn't mean we enjoy it, or want to repeat it, or even recommend it, but it does mean that we can feel all of its contours for what they are: a novel experience.


I love her. I FEEL that incredibly deeply. It is such an intense emotion. It is REAL. It is VALID and TRUE. But more importantly, it means NOTHING. I love her and I get to choose what to do with it. And I don't have to do anything.


I am feeling these waves of intense anxiety in my gut. Nothing sustained, just blooming sloshes of dread. I had the thought, "this is uncertainty" and then "I don't want to feel this". But I am feeling it. I can't control that. I can't control anything. All I can do is apply meaning to the feeling, to interpret it. So how do I want to interpret uncertainty? By bracing? By dreading? By fearing? Or by leaning into it, by acknowledging it, by being excited by it, by saying "I don't know and I am excited to try and find out"? It is firetrucking INSANE to me that this is the technique, but I think it is. It feels right. Emotions are just raw signals, I must interpret them. I choose to interpret them in a meaningful way. Fear is not meaningful in this context, but excitement is. I am excited for the future.

I don't know what will happen between me and her. Trying to cut through many of the layers, I don't believe it will work out. That isn't to say it is because of ME but because of her. I believe that I'll reach a point in time where I will want to move forward without her, not out of anger, malice, or hatred, but simply because she is weighing me down. I don't know if I'll get there. I don't know if she'll ever get where I need her to be. But for the moment, those answers don't matter. I have enough to keep my occupied.

I miss companionship. But I really don't need it right now. If and when that changes, I will feel free to update my approach. No pressure, no sadness or anger. Just a reflection of the current state of affairs.


We're all just sand-castles on the shore. At every layer of our existence.

Ritual, ceremony, tradition all revisit these castles and touch them up. We dip back into the context and remember. We create art to capture the feeling of these contexts to hang on our walls and remind us of those pilgrimages.

All of this is to recreate that feeling. To tap into that programming. This is who I am, this is what I believe, this is what I value.

Daily life gets us busy, distracted. We drift. And all the while, those sand castles wash away, grain by grain.

To have a ritual around their restoration is to guard against the drift. To be inspired by these castles is to give inspiration to performing the rituals. Trying to create a fixpoint. Trying to reach eternity. Trying to stamp something permanent onto this disintegrating plane.

[marvin4242]

Wow zartheit, it is so great to read you observations. I am so glad that you have the tools to observe all these things that are going on. FWIW all the contradictions, swinging, shifts also happen to most of us (and definitely to me) and I can tell you that even six years out some remnant of most of what you wrote is still active inside me. But as you probably already know they lesson and become more congruent over time and you will find your new path.