[MadLuv]

Once the dust settles that is exactly what helped me. Look what they put us through and we don’t behave this way. The problem is that we are so anxious to change their direction that all their behavior just verifies to us that they have lost their mind.  I think for me it wasn’t that I couldn’t accept something was terribly wrong, but wanting to save him from Himself and from destroying our family with more mistakes that could not be reversed.

Bottom line is that you cant. You cant save them. They have to save themselves and we have to let them go and make all the mistakes  they are making and will make. We have to let them destroy the foundation of  our families and destroy themselves. That’s the most important acceptance for me at least. You can’t save anyone but yourself. That is and was the number one thing I wish from the beginning I could have accepted. 

[marvin4242]

You can’t save anyone but yourself. That is and was the number one thing I wish from the beginning I could have accepted.

I just wanted to quote and emphasize this, I could not agree more. It is true in life just as much as it is in dealing with our MLCers.

[Nas]

You can’t save anyone but yourself. That is and was the number one thing I wish from the beginning I could have accepted.

I just wanted to quote and emphasize this, I could not agree more. It is true in life just as much as it is in dealing with our MLCers.

Something I used to think about also is the reality of what the dynamic in our relationship would have been like if I were even able to “save” him. Contemplating that was actually an important step in my acceptance and moving forward, that understanding that a healthy partnership could never be achieved by me rescuing him from whatever inner turmoil I thought he was experiencing.
It’s not a dynamic I would accept in any relationship, having one person who “saved” the other. It sounds almost Disneyfied in a certain sense, and it’s the opposite of the kind of intentional connection I want and came to understand through this experience that I absolutely deserve. And since I cannot ask something of a partner that I could not give in return, the only thing I could do was move forward and do the work I needed to do on myself, for myself.

The best we can do as those farther along the path is to present a good example of what's on the other side, once people are ready. And they will be.

True, but I think there is also something to be said for those of us who’ve been there pointing out some of the ugly truth, even when it’s painful. R2T, I will never forget when you were my mentor (back when newbies were assigned mentors) and you said something to me the very day I found out about the OW that literally changed my mindset instantaneously. And I don’t think that you had the intention of doing that when you said it, but I needed to hear it. You said, and I quote, “he has recoupled.”

As simple as that. Three simple words that told me that my husband was in a new relationship. It was not a fantasy (unreal), he was not battling his way through a foggy tunnel, he was not playing out a movie role. My very real husband and his very real new girlfriend were in a very real relationship. Reality. It really did bite. Hard.

I wasn’t ready to hear it, but by the time I was ready to hear it, I wouldn’t have needed to hear it as badly. So I am very glad that those who came before me were there to help me see and accept reality.

[Atari25]

Once the dust settles that is exactly what helped me. Look what they put us through and we don’t behave this way. The problem is that we are so anxious to change their direction that all their behavior just verifies to us that they have lost their mind.  I think for me it wasn’t that I couldn’t accept something was terribly wrong, but wanting to save him from Himself and from destroying our family with more mistakes that could not be reversed.

Bottom line is that you cant. You cant save them. They have to save themselves and we have to let them go and make all the mistakes  they are making and will make. We have to let them destroy the foundation of  our families and destroy themselves. That’s the most important acceptance for me at least. You can’t save anyone but yourself. That is and was the number one thing I wish from the beginning I could have accepted.

I still have trouble accepting there is something wrong with my wife. I was in denial for months and months before I realized it probably was her and not me. When someone has been a certain way for 28 years it's very hard to change your view of who and what they are.

[marvin4242]

It's been a while since I posted anything, because like most of us past a point nothing really changes. I am living my life, nothing to complain about, and my "ex" is just cycling in her current "state" which is better than early days, but nothing like what she was, or what I would say is content. Still bouts of a lot of anxiety, inability to remember, focus, jumps around, etc.

I tend to catch up and read on old and new stories, but I rarely post mainly because what I offer doesn't seem to be very helpful. But I can see why, I think like most people in year 7 or 8 all of this is now a certain distance in the past. Which is really a very different perspective from the "early days." I used to hear and really take in what "old timers" would offer in the early days, but I could see it was something that would someday come.

Reason for this post is something my "ex" sent yesterday that made me pause and think. I am still in touch with her on a semi-regular basis. We still share our main house (but not at the same time). She sent some random texts, and one that essentially said something like why don't I marry a certain person for certain logistics. I had to pause because only reason I have not pushed or finalized a divorce is because I do not believe she is in a state of mind where she could carry though the process. She has to make notes about having lunch at a certain hour, I can't imagine what the process of going through a divorce would be like. If she is hinting at finalizing divorce and we can do it easily I will be more than happy to do so. If she was joking I am not sure she understands or realizes that we are still technically married (I know it seems strange, but with the radical rewriting of all things it is not out of the realm of possibility).

I am at a point that honestly the intent really does not matter, I'll just play it out as it comes. But it made me pause for a minute and realize that even this far out, and living a completely separate life and completely detached, it still "caught" me for a minute. If this is a chance to finalize our relationship it would actually makes some things easier and there would be no loss, yes some part of me still saw this as one more "final" step.

I share this to say that wherever you are in your process don't be hard on yourself if little things "get" to you. Some of you are actually impacted by your MLCers actions and words in a tangible and sometimes dramatic ways. Be kind to yourself. I was taken a bit back that I would have ANY reaction at this point, even if it was incredibly small. Even though I am beyond ready to take that last step.

[xyzcf]

Some of you are actually impacted by your MLCers actions and words in a tangible and sometimes dramatic ways. Be kind to yourself. I was taken a bit back that I would have ANY reaction at this point, even if it was incredibly small. Even though I am beyond ready to take that last step.

I do think that it is reasonable to be affected many years later, perhaps forever. They were a big part of our lives and the ending of our marriages were not of our choosing.

If the LBSer chooses to have some contact with them, there might be times when it sucks to hear about their lives.

I have stated and I believe it to be true in my case, that contact has been good for my family and I am very much at peace and accept this is who he is now...what I get caught in is sometimes forgetting this person is not the man I knew and loved and the  memories of who he was before, who we were....can mess with my head still.

Having feelings or responses to things we see or hear about them doesn't mean we have not progressed in our own lives.

Thanks for sharing.

[Nas]

Wise words, Marvin. I think the impact of things is not related to how detached we are (we can be detached and still be impacted but not sidelined) but rather the affect is personal to each of us and our own situations, and maybe runs deeper than first appears - at least for me. I have no feelings of "love" or "hate" for my former H, but when the day comes when he reappears after completely vanishing, I will not be unaffected. It doesn't mean I'm not healed and takes nothing away from the tremendous amount of work I've done since he left.

[KayDee]

I tend to catch up and read on old and new stories, but I rarely post mainly because what I offer doesn't seem to be very helpful.

Well, as you may have been fishing I for one find your post incredibly helpful.  Thought-provoking is a term I'd use. 

She sent some random texts, and one that essentially said something like why don't I marry a certain person for certain logistics. I had to pause because only reason I have not pushed or finalized a divorce is because I do not believe she is in a state of mind where she could carry though the process. She has to make notes about having lunch at a certain hour, I can't imagine what the process of going through a divorce would be like. If she is hinting at finalizing divorce and we can do it easily I will be more than happy to do so. If she was joking I am not sure she understands or realizes that we are still technically married (I know it seems strange, but with the radical rewriting of all things it is not out of the realm of possibility).

And speaking of fishing.... I read this (just my reading) as her fishing for info. For what, I would have no clue. But it seems sort of removed enough from emotion, by being related to logistics, as to not expose any emotional motivation on her part. Is she asking you whether you will marry again? Yes, she kind of is. But by 'de-personalizing' it by making it a practical matter, she throws the net wide for a range of potential responses. With the question she posed, one might answer 'heck, no, I will never marry again' or 'no, you will always be my wife' Or 'no I am planning to marry Z' etc etc. It works as a non-threatening, low pressure, question IMO.  I don't know your W, obviously, but I imagine most people motivated to initiate divorce would frame it another way - even if indirectly.

[marvin4242]

Thanks xyzcf, Nas, KayDee.

KayDee, I am not a fishing kind of guy (both in terms of interactions and in actual fish!). I meant more I don't respond on other threads with thoughts I may have in what people are facing, as generally it is not helpful to where they are in the moment. I continue to post on my thread as an "archive" hoping others find it helpful or something they can refer to (as I did with so many other posters here myself). I do appreciate the feedback!

Honestly right now if we could sit down in a reasonable way and work out the mechanics of a divorce it would only take a 30 day filing where I live. In practical terms it would make no difference to me, and in the past when I brought up the idea in one of her more out of control discussions she literally said "well I am never going to get married again and neither are you so there is no reason to get a divorce." Yes prime example of projection, insane clown logic, and disordered thinking. But there are practical reasons for HER to get a divorce as it would allow her the option of marrying OM and be able to move to his home country without constant visa issues. And yet...

I always want to reiterate that what I have seen in her since her fracture is that she exists as a incoherent set of fears, needs, desires, drives and none of it is held together with a functioning self. So nothing she says is stable or permanent nor is usually well thought out. I think this disordered state is one of the hardest things for the LBS to understand and accept (well because it is disordered and makes no sense). And is the source of the constant contradictory and confusing behaviours and words. I have a feeling she was kind of making a half joke and did not occur to her that the response may go into difficult territory.

[marvin4242]

I don't have much to update or say these days, but every so often a thought or observation pops up that I feel like may be useful to share.

As I follow along here in various threads I occasionally see the idea of "unconditional love" pop up. And I personally always am a little surprised by the use of that term in adult relationships. I personally believe all adult relationships are conditional. I do not mean conditional as transactional, which sometimes is what comes up for people when I say this. Transactional is "if you have no use for me then bye bye." Conditional means there are boundaries, limits, and assessment of whether a relationship is healthy or generative to both parties.

I think this is easier to separate when our loves ones have a physical condition. I personally would never abandon someone who I cared for because they needed physical or emotional support. I would have to carefully balance their needs to make sure I am not harmed. That is martyrdom and I do not believe in that. I am happy to put in effort, care, energy and give up things that are not critical to help someone. The tricky line usually is when that switches over to harming oneself (long term, not in short stretches) in order to help someone else in an adult relationship. I think we are sometimes conditioned to believe this is "noble" or "healthy" and for me it is part of the myth of love.

The harder part of this is if someone is somehow changing in a psychological sense. Obviously this covers a lot of things. Easy example is if someone is struggling with depression but they are the same foundational person they deserve and need support from their loved ones. It gets trickier and trickier when we start looking at things that may represent a "foundational" change. Whatever we call "MLC" usually includes depression, anxiety and other conditions that I personally would not consider deal breakers if I care for someone. But some of the things are really structural personality changes, and if we can accept that then I view them as real conditions. The person we cared for may not quite exist as we wish them to exist.

Its a hard pill to swallow as they say, but we have to live in reality as it is, not as we wish it to be.

To be clear this does not apply to a parent child relationship.