[AlvinTheMaker]

Great to have you back,SS....  and thanks for sharing.

Alvin

[Standing Strong]

I totally understand your point : you ask your wife to heal before you can go back to a marriage relationship, right ? Only that, your W says she does not know  what to do, and it looks like to me she is expecting your support/direction/advice. She is already doing IC since a long time, so I can not see what she could do better or differently right now ?
Usually we LBS should not give advices because our sposes under MLC don't want advices and don't ask for them. But this time it is different, no ? What do you think about it ?

Hey FH 
She has to answer and figure it out on her own...... I really do feel for her right here, but I'm not the answer.
Her core problem is so multifaceted...... and the real issue is - she can't go back. There STILL is no woman for her to learn from (no role model) and thus she has to figure it out on her own and make her best guess with everything she is TODAY.

The thing is, there is no answer to her problem..... and it can't be solved or avoided. That's the solution (IMO). The only thing which really exists is now.... not yesterday and not tomorrow..... now. She can't live in either of those places anymore and neither can I.

When she says "I don't know what to do or how to proceed", well of course she doesn't. When she was young, she needed good women to teach her how to be a woman and how to be a wife...... didn't happen. Just like young men (and boys) need good men to teach them how to be good men and husbands. Everyone needs direct teaching, learning by observation, and correction by those wiser than us....... remove that and you end up with lost people with these big holes in their understanding.
She can't get the past back nor can she undo her early life damage or learn all the needed lessons from missing women, and so she'll have to make her best guess with her new understanding and maturity brought forth by pain (just like we abandoned/betrayed have to also).

Sooooooo..... what I'm looking for is: the realization that she is broken (check), the understanding that her screwed up head stems from the distant past and with it a screwed up heart and perspective (check), genuine remorse for all the screwed up things and choices she's made (being checked now), realization that there's nothing she can do about the past and the maturity to accept what today is and move forward (starting to be checked), a choosing as to what she is going to be/life choice (not checked).

I think it's a very difficult thing for anyone to finally look at themselves and see all which is there (the missing pieces) without filling in the gaps, glossing over, justifying, telling stories, lying....... we are what we are (MLC'er and LBS) and no more than that.

A reoccurring theme of (healed) MLC'ers is "I bear scars"..... which (IMO) is a great sign of maturity and understanding..... a lack of a need to be flawless and perfect and unspoiled.
The wisest of old people I knew growing up, all had a defining characteristic about admitting their flaws and mistakes....... not that they could change them, but that their experiences were a part of them and changed them into someone who could understand. It was these flaws and mistakes and wisdom which made them into someone capable of teaching and guiding. Sadness and regret was there but also an acceptance of what can't be changed, along with a desire to improve, help and atone (thru their mentorship, teaching and guidance).   

LBS all needs this too. I myself bear scars, oh yes I do. Deep ones. Doesn't matter how they arrived, or who inflicted them..... they're here. Lucky for me, they are mine and thus I have power over them: they are not some outside force controlling me. I have pain of what has been lost because of the love given to another (just like all LBS) but I can only be stuck if I do not move forward from the past and accept that what has happened in my life has already happened. It only happens again and again if I live in the past - and people live in the past because they can't resolve that it can't be different.
This is how (I believe) we can forgive...... the hurt and pain is in the past - it is "there" and not "here". Today is today. This is too where the MLC'er has to get..... "today". The MLC'er lives in the past and tries to escape it by leaping into an alternate "future", the LBS lives in the past and tries to reconstruct a path back to a present which no longer exists (until it is finally abandoned). In both cases (IMO) the answer is arriving at "now" with the full knowledge and understanding of the past and ourselves and the revealing of our scars to ourselves and others. Then the "now" is here and a future can be chosen and plotted.
 

-SS           

[Curiosity]

Great updates, SS! And welcome back, sounds like you had a wonderful vacation… though given your positive outlook on life, it seems like even the mundane day to day stuff is pretty wonderful.

Your discussion of your W’s state of mind really resonated with me. My W has had depression off and on for years, since her early teens. She had a depressed mother who was untreated for much of her life… one of those situations where on the surface it looked like a happy family with two parents raising their daughters into successful adults. It’s actually shocking how much trauma can still occur in those families. I say this because my W has been in a pretty severe depression for a while, even as she made her way back to our home and our marriage. And she has talked a lot about the MLC time as “that was such a disaster; I wasn’t me during that time.” And it seems like your W is very much in that place.

It’s so essential as the LBS to do exactly what you are doing at this time - to show love and empathy and to absolutely avoid anything that resembles becoming a “fixer.” That disconnection, pain, trauma… that is hers, and she has to find her way through that. You can love her and support her and be on her team, but you can’t do it for her and you really can’t even tell her how to resolve those things herself. She has to take that journey.

I wish you both strength and peace as she works through her history and as you continue supporting her in whatever way you can. The way you show loving detachment, the balance you strike between wanting your marriage to work while being absolutely sure you will be fine regardless of the outcome - it’s admirable.

[Reinventing]

SS, I think that adult women and men can learn from good role models, regardless of whether the role models are women or men.

Unless one espouses that women have only certain roles in a relationship and men have other defined roles, seeing other humans in healthy relationships can help any human learn about healthy relationships.

[Finding Joy]

So glad to read how well you are doing in this long process!

[HeavenlyFocus]

Hi SS,

Great to hear the progress with your W and the difficult things that she is slowly confronting.   Your journey sharing the brokenness and thoughts that your W is talking continues to be helpful to me.   Due to my kid's activities, I still see my XW all the time and I only get a glimpse into the brokenness.  I see that she is still lost and completely broken but I get a snapshot.   Your story helps me to at least understand and accept my situation.

Have a great time at the pin pall conference and maybe you'll make it to my area someday for for the pinball conference here in TX.

HF

[Standing Strong]

Journaling 

Hmmmmmm.... it's been a couple months (I think) since I last posted.
I'm doing awesome.
Went on vacation to the pinball expo in Chicago (hadn't been to Chicago in 26 years)..... the show was AMAZING!!! Another thing checked off the bucket list. HA!!! It exceeded my expectations, so much fun....... now to get anther pinball machine next year 
That's two vacations in two months..... and another to come in Dec.
W asked "What are you doing??? What's with all these trips???"
"I'm having fun". 
HAHAHAHAAHAHA

I don't remember if I mentioned a couple months ago she admitted what she's done in a very round-about way..... but she did. Since then she's occasionally been lightly asking about "us" (after that very direct asking that I turned down). Well, I'm still not biting and I'm not going to bite unless I'm happy to do so, and completely believe her (which I don't)..... AND..... the rest of my life (if it's going to be with her) has to be a good deal (for me) and I don't know if that's the case....... soooooooo.... I'm a wait and see and evaluate. I know thru and thru - the choice is mine..... so I'll make sure the next choice is a good one. I didn't brake anything, and I have my honor intact, so I'm just not obligated to automatically give everything for nothing. Now I get to be choosy and have conditions.

Last night the oddest thing happened...... well, actually the couple nights....... she's been coming home late again, working long hours..... anyway..... she comes home, and right to the piano she goes...... she plays for hours..... completely lost in her world, only now she isn't stuck on one song like during her MLC - she plays EVERYTHING that comes to mind. Last night she came home (not late for once) and played for three hours straight. After playing, she went into the kitchen AND COOKED DINNER!!! OMG!!! The last five years, cooking twice a year would be a lot for her. She didn't announce it, she just did it..... oh, and before she got on the piano, she got home before me and walked the dog so I wouldn't have to!!!! 
Who is this person? 
She's even got on the pinball and played and played (by herself).


Not complaining, it's soooooo alien for there to be consideration without "LOOK AT ME!!!!".
Anyways, it was really nice..... she even asked "did it surprise you?"....... um, let's see..... YEAH!!! 

She's getting ready for her Christmas trip to South America and paying off the condo. It'll be interesting to see if she even cares about it afterward (she doesn't seem to care about it at all now).
Here in a couple weeks is her birthday. I can ask her about it, and there's no emotion to it at all: completely neutral. How about that? It was so traumatic and unwanted the last several years. Has she given up with her fight against aging?
She's been very vocal about wanting to know what is next for her life, and wanting to start the next part of life with some task or role worthy of her time, effort, and it being fulfilling.
Sounds like she's getting close to the end (which I knew already). Who this person will be is still a mystery. Seems very similar to the person from before - but there is a change about how time is spent: "That isn't important" "I don't have time to waste on that" "That isn't interesting"...... so in a way, a certain type of peace is forming, and a more efficient use of time more tuned to things which actually matter to her (instead of worrying about everything) is coming into play.
Very interesting to see. Seems very obvious the next phase of her life is taking hold - and once it does, it'll never let go. So it really is goodbye to the old, and hello to whatever this will be.

As for me, I don't know what I feel about this. It's all theory until you're looking at it. As a man (  ) it's easy to assume that "here's a broken woman, she's going to get patched up and then she'll like before but a little different" - only to really discover the rules are a changing. HA!!!! 
You ladies are lucky (IMO) = us guys don't really change over the course of our lives. But ladies on the other hand, you change a whole bunch don't you.....     That's not your fault, but us guys think that things will essentially be the same forever.  We're funny aren't we? LOL!!!

Well anyway, that's my life. Com'on Dec!!! I'm ready for another vacation!!! Time to plan for next year!!!
Five years ago I was hesitant about one vacation a year...... I was so used to work work work, and doing things was a "someday". Now I can't get enough. I want to see things, do things, have fun, check things off the list. I must seem to be this whirlwind of activity to W. Now SHE is on the sidelines watching ME run.
Feels good.

One day at a time,

-SS

[Reinventing]

You ladies are lucky (IMO) = us guys don't really change over the course of our lives.

What an interesting thing to say on this forum. You might want to take a look at some of the other threads

[Standing Strong]

You ladies are lucky (IMO) = us guys don't really change over the course of our lives.

What an interesting thing to say on this forum. You might want to take a look at some of the other threads

Hi Re,
Maybe I should have said unbroken men...... but even then, broken or not..... what do men want their whole lives? There's only a small handful of things. They always go back to those core wants/needs. Always. The only time they stop is when they don't believe it's possible anymore or the cost is too great.
You don't agree?

[Reinventing]

I think that all humans have basic needs of food, water, and usually shelter to stay alive, yes.

Beyond that, I think that all humans have core needs beyond basic needs--hence the word core--and more elaborate needs beyond the core based on culture, means, and experience.

I don't think gender identity has one gender stop at only core needs and another gender be more elaborate. I think humans fluctuate between meeting basic, core and more elaborate needs every day.

I think that simplifying or minimizing one human group as compared to another human group has been shown to be fraught with folly over and over and over in history. Be it gender identity, culture, race or any other category we construct to group humans into.