[Reinventing]

To be complete, the men were not approached by Dominique Pénicot. They watched porn. They went on the darknet. They entered a forum called "à son insu" (=unwittingly / without her knowledge). They accepted to participate to a "game". Gradual steps that.

Yes, I've read a few articles making the link to porn. They mention that even easily accessible porn frequently displays violence against women, including porn that is targeted to teenagers. The argument is that these images normalize this violence, especially when young men grow up with seeing them.

I had not realized the translation of the name of the website where they lurked. To know that so many "regular guys" are on such websites makes it even more disturbing because to me it shows how many want the "high" from nonconsual sex in particular.

I agree that laws and systems are the only thing keeping this somewhat in check. And even then, we have annual Denim Day to remember the "jeans alibi" where in 1992 the Italian Supreme Court said that tight jeans implied consent since the young woman must have had to help remove them when her driving instructor took her to an isolated spot, forced her out of the car, and then raped her.

[UrsaMajor]

The case is headline news in Germany as well.

As a father (for one) and a male member of the species "Homo Sapiens" my initial reaction was

"<schnip-schnap> there go the doo-dads. They won't be doing anything like that again... ever.... "

For a man to even consider doing what he did, let alone carry it through and, even worse, promote it, speaks to the absolute barbarity of his thinking.... that he could treat her like Chattel, like a piece or property, like a butcher treats a side of meat hung out to be carved up is so far beyond my ability to comprehend..... and every single one of the males (I can't call them "men" because a real man has some sense of honor and would never abase himself to participate in such an atrocity) that participated, including those that said "no" but didn't report it to the police, should be locked away from the general public and experience what she must have gone through. 

And with that, you have gotten to the magic limit and need a new thread......

[KayDee]

I hope this doesn't blow up FH thread again - but I have been thinking about the points raised in relation to Gisèle Pénicot, and before he starts a new chapter, wanted to share these.

A long while ago, I watched the documentary ‘The Smartest Men in the Room’ about the appalling culture and behaviour at Enron. It struck me then, that when humans get into a particular group or culture, an environment is created where the practices of that culture are normalised and often go unquestioned. An ‘us’ and ‘them’ mentality is created. What’s frightening – and this ranges from work cultures, via cults, right up to genocide, is that once there is this kind of ‘othering’, and when this form of de-humanising occurs, humans can do appalling things. So, while I completely agree with all the previous posts, that there is an egregious issue that some males have this toxic notion of entitlement mixed with female objectification, I think this is also a question about humanity, and the degrees to which we can de-humanise others.

For me it's a point of reflection about when one may be doing this For instance, in the UK at the moment, there are many people who use de-humanising language about migrants that come into the country at grave personal risk. Rather than show empathy towards a migrant’s  plight, that many die trying to cross the channel, they say things like ‘they should be better processed in France’ etc. To me, this language has echos of regimes that have committed previous atrocities. Is this how one would speak of their mother? Their son? This way of speaking, this othering, it is a very slippery slope towards de-humanisation, at which point we cross into dark territories.

[Treasur]

I agree with you so much, KayDee, about the ‘othering’. Both the normalising effect of groups and how each of us needs to be our own monitor bc it can be a slippery slope. And most humans, including most of us, have moments of thinking that way. It’s a terrible reality that dehumanising others is how we humans can give ourselves mental permission to do awful things, things we would never dream of doing to the people we know. And most of us here post-BD know what it feels like to be dehumanised or treated like an object rather than a person, don’t we?

[amazinglove]

Ok I know this thread is over and we are done but just one thing: we can philosophically address this and intellectualize our thinking -but rape is not “sex without consequences” - rape is not sex - it is rape. And to not know if you would be tempted to rape an unconscious stranger is akin to saying if I saw a group beating someone to death I would be tempted to join in. It is not normal, or brave, or courageous to say that. The only one brave in this scenario is that poor woman.

[KayDee]

I agree, and rape is the epitome of a dehumanising act. I wasn't talking about herd mentality, like joining a random group looting a shop, or joining in violence, I was talking about how certain beliefs get formed, much more slowly, in certain in groups, and how these can become very toxic and othering. For instance, there's a lot of this on certain online forums that support each other in misogyny.

Perhaps you were not aiming this at me AL, because basically, I agree with you. And add that what 'informed' those men's entitlement, it came from somewhere. It's out there. And it has to be challenged. And Gisèle Pénicot is a hero in this respect and so many others.

[Reinventing]

And add that what 'informed' those men's entitlement, it came from somewhere. It's out there. And it has to be challenged. And Gisèle Pénicot is a hero in this respect and so many others.

Agree. And the evidence shows that most "regular guys" said yes. The normalization through porn and other avenues, the forums to feed those thoughts, the forums to provide the opportunities.......

It's all there just below the surface, below the veneer of respected careers, marriages, families. These rapists are  "regular guys" in that small town. Terrifying.

And Gisele Penicot has the courage to rip off that veneer by going public. It's hard to fathom that level of courage and dedication--even fighting for the videos to be shown to the public and journalists in the court room to disabuse the notion that the rapists thought this was a consensual game.

[FrenchHusband]

In a French newspapers, I found something about entitlement, so now I understand the following definition
Entitlement = the feeling that you have the right to do or have what you want without having to work for it or deserve it, just because of who you are.

Yes I get it now. And yes I see there is something in MLC, and also in the ongoing process. I see also the link, as Kaydee writes, with the "we" and "they", and the way we in Western countries talk about the migrants. Or the online mysogyn forums. Food to thought yes.

For me, that is also linked to "being its own reference, not wanting to accept any authority and not wanting to accept other people are real (=objectization)".
Yes I think I get the point, thanks.
Since Cain and Abel this is part of the humanity story.

And yes, watch porn may increase the sense of entitlement for male teenagers.

To come back to what is under my responsibility, me and my children : I see now better what I can do on myself. Thanks to you for reading my inner thoughts and reacting to it. Regarding S6 and "entitlement", it is not the time right now to speak with him about entitlement, but what I can do is show to him that I can fail, I can be wrong, and it's OK. And if necessary I can apologize or try to repair. Currently I am his reference, his parental model, so I can show him that I am no God. And I show him that there are rules, rules that make sense and that I too respect, there are other people that we have to respect. And the daughters have already tought him - me supporting - about consentment : he can not kiss or hug them without asking first and getting a yes. And I have tought the girls to do the same, to show him same respect that they are expecting from him.
Boundaries, that is IMO the answer to entitlement : to have boundaries, to respect other's boundaries. Not something new in the education I try to give to my children, but it takes even more sense now. Thanks !

And with that final comment, I guess it is time for a new thread. If you want to continue the discussions about Gisèle Pélicot, you're welcome ! I am glad I opened the discussion.

New thread "a journey towards myself"