[FaithWalker]

You and the kiddos are in in my thoughts, hopefully all goes well with them speaking with the courts and then the hearing.

[FrenchHusband]

Thank you FW and B for your nice comments, yes it is a shame as many aspects of this MLC : waste of money, waste of time, broken lifes, traumas for the next to come generation. But it is not in the power of any of us to undo MLC, so I have to face the situation as is.

Today I won't journal much, as I want to share here some personal thoughts about an ongoing trial : what we call : affaire Mazan (8 languages are available on wikipedia). I don't know whether this trial is followed by the medias in your country (please tell me), but in France this is a huge thing : 50 men + 1 husband are currently before the court for repeated rapes of a woman.

Summary
During ten years, a French husband has given to his wife drugs in order to control her by chemical submission. He invited more than 70 men at his house to rape his wife while she was unconscious.

I praise the giant courage of this 71 yo woman because, instead of a closed session, she has chosen that the hearings are public, that means that our medias can freely access to the Court and there is currently a lot of debates that will change the consciousness of many people in my country, I hope.
 
A few words about the accused men : they are not usual criminals, they are not migrants, they are not cat-eating migrants ( to the American LBSs). They are "normal" men, some of them are married and/or have children. They are not monsters, they are human who have done monstruous things. Among the 50, only one admitted that he has raped. The 49 others say that it was no rape.

Personal thoughts :
could I be one of the 50 ? I would like to say NO, but the honest answer is "I don't know". If I had been placed in a position to have sex with a woman, freely, without consequences, would I have resisted the temptation ? I am not sure. In my own shadow, I can join the shadow of these 51 men.

I have discussed the ongoing trial several times with my daughters. When S6 will be older I want also to discuss about "consentment" with him.

Is there any link with MLC ?

At first view there is no link. But, in second thoughts, there is. This whole affaire is about abuses, lies, cheating.
In French, to be aware is translated by "être conscient" (= to be conscious). I am glad that me and my children can be more conscious about the shadow that lies in humanity.

[amazinglove]

Yes the trial is widely covered here in the US and I too admire the bravery of this amazing woman.

However this part from you gives me pause: "could I be one of the 50 ? I would like to say NO, but the honest answer is "I don't know". If I had been placed in a position to have sex with a woman, freely, without consequences, would I have resisted the temptation ?"

SHE WAS COMPLETELY UNCONSCIOUS. SHE COULD NOT CONSENT. It would be like having sex with a corpse. Do you really think you would be one of the men lined up to rape an unconscious woman? This is not 'sex without consequences" this is RAPE. I hope, I really hope, you can say with certainty, you would not do that.

[Dragonfly33]

I also saw this on the news and all I can say is those who participated in this horrible monstrous act  are demons. These are not humans. Like Amazing I am quite disturb that you even could not say with certainty that you will never do such a thing to a woman. She had no way of saying yes or no. She was drugged. It is clearly a rape case.

[Treasur]

I was rather shocked by your conclusion too, FH. But perhaps, sadly, I should not be. Not every man, but only men, right? Perhaps there was something in your phrasing bc you are not writing in your home language, idk? Perhaps I should commend your honesty and hope it encourages your reflection, idk.

I don’t know what it would feel like to view this as a man. Or as a father of daughters. As a woman, it truly is horrific. Not just bc of the details of what happened to this one tremendously brave woman, not just bc of the nature of her former husband even. The real horror is that so many ‘normal’ men in a relatively small geographic area found this an ok thing to do. NOT ONE - including a few who refused to take part for whatever reason - reported it to the police. Not one. For women, that feels as if they are surrounded by some kind of hidden evil behind all those normal faces. As if some unknown percentage of everyday men see us essentially as nothing more than useful holes, as if men’s wish for ‘sex without consequences’ is more important than our humanity. And that is frightening and a truly horrific lens to view our fathers and husbands and sons through. I have no words to describe how awful a lens that is….. or to know that these 50 or so men who used Mme Pélicot as an orifice were doubtless also fathers and husbands and sons and grandfathers.

Is that really the essence of what men are? That sex is so important to you that it overrides our humanity and yours? Bc if so, that’s a really frightening world to live in. And I can’t see how we woman change that…only men can change that. Yet I see a lot of women talking about it and protesting about it - where are the men? Are men even talking about this?

It’s so tempting, even comforting maybe, to see these things as beyond the norm, as one evil twisted man or a small number. That’s how women keep going about their daily business and have men in their lives tbh. But at the same time, a little bit of us knows that it isn’t the whole truth…it was men who raped and murdered in Israel on Oct 7th, most domestic abusers are male, most women are killed by men they are in relationship with. In the UK, that averages about one every other day, hundreds of women a year. There is even a case here of a young woman who was unconscious on a park bench having drunk too much who was orally raped by a male stranger until she died - the CCTV images apparently made the jury weep, men and women alike. Another woman who was just an orifice without consequences apparently.

I don’t know what to do with this. I have no idea how I would talk about it to daughters and tell them what to do with it. I have no idea how you can say what you said as a father of daughters tbh. Does it relate to MLC? I don’t think so - other than the sense of deep shock when one is faced with being treated as if you are nothing. And entitlement. That’s the big common thread for me….that horrific sense of entitlement. And, even with video evidence in the Pélicot case, the remarkable ability of some people to still not hold themselves accountable for things they chose to do or for the profound damage they cause to others. But mostly imho, it’s entitlement.

My father would have told me to always take steps to keep myself safe, to resoect my own strength and absolute right to say No. And to see these kinds of men as not real men at all who did not deserve my compassion or forgiveness….who deserved tbh at best a punch in the face or worse.

But again, the essence is entitlement in my view. And perhaps recognising that there is a bit in the male psyche, not all men but more than we would wish, that really doesn’t like women much. Is that you? Idk. That perhaps as the infamous quote says, Margaret Atwood maybe or was it Gernaine Greer, that men are afraid that women will laugh at them and women are afraid that men will kill them.

Talk to your son about entitlement. Look at how you might be bringing him up with a sense of entitlement that is different from your daughters. And perhaps consider your own, my friend. It was brave of you to post what you did. But it was also disturbing to read.

[Biscuit]

Hi all,

I've thought about this a lot this morning. I know for me at least, there is no way on earth I would take advantage of a woman (or man) who wasn't it a fit state to make decisions by themselves. In fact I'd have shopped this monster of a "husband" to the police in a blink of an eyelid.
In the last couple of years I've had a few situations where I could've just walked by when there was someone clearly in trouble, and inebriated, but didn't. Once on the tube where a very drunk young woman was being preyed on by a couple (man and woman) and I let her know subtly, that I was keeping an eye on the situation. When it was her stop, I got off with her, walked her home to her door and made sure she could get in.... She actually stumbled out a few seconds later with flowers for me!
The next time was actually in France last year when I stopped a couple of big male thugs beating up a drunk/drugged woman - no flowers that time - I got my nose broken for my trouble!
I'm not making out I'm some sort of knight in shining armour , I hope anyone with any decency would intervene in this sort of situation - not join in  on the abuse. I hope my male friends would have the same attitude - I think they would.
I have a mother, a sister, a wife and a daughter and I hope any man or woman would offer them protection should they find themselves in a situation where they needed help.

[Reinventing]

I think FH, who used the word rape to describe what happened multiple times in his post, and who points out that it was large numbers of  "regular guys" in the community who raped her--asks himself a good question.

Less than 5 said no. Overwhelmingly men (83 men) said yes and only some have been identified from the videos to stand trial. That's the evidence. FH wonders, "am I any different if someone approached me with the scenario the husband approached these men with?" These are regular men in the community. I think it's a good question. The question doesn't condone what happened, it is acknowledging what the evidence shows. Many men say yes when presented with what they rationalize as sex without consequences. Even if there isn't consent and it is rape. I'm glad he is going to talk to S6 about this when he is older.

And yes, for women it is a disturbing realization that the evidence points to this as just below the surface.

[forthetrees]

For me the case is horrific because of the rape but also because the men declaring innocence base it upon her husband having given permission - as if she were his property. That blows my mind that men think of women as property. The other disturbing piece is that at least one of them went on to drug his own wife and pimp her out. It also disgusts me that the husband has the cajones to ask for forgiveness.

[Nas]

 

I am not sure. In my own shadow, I can join the shadow of these 51 men.


Is there any link with MLC ?

In response to the two things above, let me exercise a right that many women don't have, that this woman didn't have, because I have not been this incensed by a post in a long time:
NO

First, and VERY importantly, listen up, FH and others: This woman was not raped by SHADOWS. She was raped by men.
Let's stop bastardizing Carl Jung in defense of people doing selfish, cruel and sometimes unspeakable things.

The idea that anyone would hear this horrific story and connect it to MLC is frighteningly indicative of being in a rabbit hole where everything comes back to a reason, excuse or parallel to their ex. Sorry if this statement sounds over the line, but let's get some perspective here.

[FrenchHusband]

yes the topic is disturbing. And I won't say I am sorry because my words have disturbed you. It may be that my English skills make it difficult for me to express what I think ; thank you Reinventing : your words are better than mine to explain my mind.

For sure it would be easier for me to not post what I wrote, to distance myself from the rapists and deny them to belong to same human race, to write a nice phrase with "never" and "always". That would be easier yes, but not honest from me. This forum and the other LBS on this forum deserve better, I think. You deserve me to be honest with myself and with you about my inner thoughts.

I am glad that you are already familiar with this case. That shows me that the difficult choice of Gisèle Pénicot and the high emotional cost for her, her daughter and her grandchildren are not in vain. At least there is this benefit of globalization : her story and her process can help humanity.

If you forgive me for my Godwin point, what happened during WWII in Germany - one of the most educated country in the world - and the Nuremberg process, the works of Hannah Arendt and Milgram experiments show to humanity that normal people can do monstruous things.

I believe killing and raping are amongst the most evil things an human can do to another human. For killing there are circumstances (
As Treasur wrote, these crimes are in majority done by men.
I can not speak for humanity nor for all men, I am a sample of one, only a man, a "normal" one who made love with only one woman in my whole life. She accused me of many things but never accused me of any kind of sexual abuse. I have had a "normal" childhood with no big traumas. And as a man I feel concerned by the ongoing trial. Yes I believe there is something dark in the man psyche,  this is not an excuse for anything but something we have to face as a whole and as individuals.
I am glad that there are laws, justice and police that can punish those acts, this helps also to prevent them IMO (no free pass). But it is not enough : as individuals, I believe we men need an "awakening". And in that regard I believe this process helps. Currently in French medias there are articles and programs about other stories of chemical submission and how badly the victims are treated by policemen & policewomen, workers in hospital and Courts. The mediatization helps. Thanks to the information I am sure in the future men and women will do something when they see a man putting something in a woman's glass.

FH wonders, "am I any different if someone approached me with the scenario the husband approached these men with?" These are regular men in the community. I think it's a good question.

To be complete, the men were not approached by Dominique Pénicot. They watched porn. They went on the darknet. They entered a forum called "à son insu" (=unwittingly / without her knowledge). They accepted to participate to a "game". Gradual steps that

The idea that anyone would hear this horrific story and connect it to MLC is frighteningly indicative of being in a rabbit hole where everything comes back to a reason, excuse or parallel to their ex. Sorry if this statement sounds over the line, but let's get some perspective here.

I understand that you feel hurt by my words. For that I am sorry. So to make it clear, I was not thinking about my wife's MLC. I was thinking about MLC in general. And I did not think or write one word to defend those men or minimize their crimes. There is no excuse for their acts.
Here on my thread, I am only speaking about myself and my shadows. As a man I recognize there is something dark within me. Facing it and naming it helps me to not let this darkness drive my life.
What about MLC then ? People within MLC don't want to face the consequences of their actions, they, lie, they do terrible things. I have been under mild MLC/MLT and even if I did not cheat, in hindsight I can tell I could have cheated at this time. Again, I don't want to minimize the actions or defend anybody.

Is that really the essence of what men are? That sex is so important to you that it overrides our humanity and yours? Bc if so, that’s a really frightening world to live in. And I can’t see how we woman change that…only men can change that. Yet I see a lot of women talking about it and protesting about it - where are the men? Are men even talking about this?

No that is not the essence of men. And yes I agree with you men need to speak more about this.

Talk to your son about entitlement. Look at how you might be bringing him up with a sense of entitlement that is different from your daughters. And perhaps consider your own, my friend. It was brave of you to post what you did. But it was also disturbing to read.

I am sorry I don't understand what you mean about entitlement and I would like to understand it because it looks very important. Yes it took me a lot of courage to post what I posted, and I don't regret to have done it.