[Treasur]

Why not let your h tell them whatever he intends to say? (Partly bc it’s his decision so his circus, partly bc these folks change their minds from Tuesday to Thursday, partly bc you are not responsible for his actions or to be a magic mindreader/translator of his thoughts, mostly bc you can’t control that anyway)

Why don’t you tell them simply what you do factually know….eg he’s moving out….and be honest in an age appropriate way about what you don’t know….eg what he will decide he wants to do after he moves out or indeed what you will decide is best for you all further down the line.

Imho I’d worry less about what you will say - beyond the bare bone facts - and be driven more by what your kids ask. Bc tbh at a simple level, the questions we humans ask tends to show pretty clearly what we feel we want or need to know at a given time. When we are ready to hear certain things. Or not.

And is ok to say ‘I don’t know’ when you don’t. Or ‘I don’t know yet but I will figure it out as I go’. Or ‘I don’t know, you would have to ask your father.’

Sadly, no one can protect their children from all of the practical realities of life and that includes your h’s choices. Imho however one can do them a real service, bc unwanted stuff happens in life, by helping them feel what they feel, validating their right to feel it and supporting them as they figure out what to do with it that is healthy for them. And repeating the things you can control that will stay the same….your love for them, your commitment to trying to always do what is best for them, that hard as it is, you will all be ok eventually even if it is a different kind of ok than you all had planned.

When does your h want to tell them?
When do you?

[KeepCalmAndCarryOn]

I guess you're right, it's probably just my anxiety about how much pain this will cause them that is driving me nuts. But all I can do is help them through it best I can, I don't control the rest :/
Since my H doesn't seem to like the couch, he's planning to change the smallest room into a mini bedroom for himself this weekend. I guess that is a good moment to tell the kids as well. I don't feel much for selling them some excuse about him getting a separate bedroom, since H will have his own place in a few weeks anyway.

[Treasur]

That makes sense. I know your kids are still little, but tbh kids do seem to sense something ‘off’ about our spouses more and sooner than we think.

What schedule/arrangements - if any - have you made about shared custody or visitation once he moves out? And finances?

Have you taken legal advice in your/his options and obligations? Big stuff and small stuff like redirecting his mail and your ability to exclude him from the house if you wish, ha ha as I am guessing you won’t be able to drop by uninvited and let yourself into his new home, right?  Bc tbh once he moves out, the landscape changes and you should. You don’t have to act on it but you should get some legal advice bc this is about your children’s wellbeing and keeping a roof over your collective head while maintaining your own sanity - three things that are too important I’d imagine to trust to fate or your h’s whims or promises. Or indeed ow’s agenda.

As his initial complaints seemed to be a lot about not wanting grown up responsibilities, I suspect he may find this rather more hard work than he thinks without a wife appliance bc kids this age are full of beans lol…lovely but require effort and organisation. Which is why, if I  were in your shoes, hard though it will feel, I would organise things from Day 1 ‘as if’ you were already divorced.

Why? Well, if I were a betting woman, I could imagine your h coming round to ‘visit’ the kids (when he feels like it  ) leaving you to do all the adult stuff bc, well, it’s a very self centred man child way to do it. A quick free family dinner, a few cuddles and a bit of attention etc, bit of a Dad Performance to make himself feel that he isn’t an PoS and off he goes. That’s not how real life works if you are a man who leaves your wife and children. And be clear in your own mind - that is what he has told you he is doing and that is what he is now doing on March 1st.

No lipstick he tries to put on it (or you do) changes a pig from being a pig; it’s just a pig with lipstick.

So, just as well to start with some adult arrangements from the off. Plus it gives you some space away from his sadz or chaos or entitlement, and some breathing space for your own healing and some restorative GAL stuff that you can plan around your own schedule.

Decide what kind of 50/50 ish schedule will work best for you and the kids, and propose it starts from March 2nd. Or listen to any counter-proposal he makes and agree to what seems workable. Do not adult for him with the details. Bc right now it reads as if your h essentially thinks he can swan off on a kind of experimental ‘vacation’ from his family and you will just carry the load.

Still his ‘plan’ to dip out of family life and parenthood for 2-3 days a week in his new gaff, examine his navel and perhaps others’ navels, have a nice groovy single life, and then ‘come home’ to his ‘best buddy’ and grateful children for 3-4 days? Then rinse and repeat until….what/when?

I’m struggling to see what is in that for you or your kids tbh. Other than the fear of what saying No to it would mean. And I can see some potential collateral damage for you and the kids from the sheer self-centred mindf**kery and uncertainty of it tbh. Like an endless audition for all of you. For a prize that is not much of a prize at the moment. I can’t find words to tell you how outrageous, unfair and plain weird his plan seems to me. It makes me feel like punching him in the face when I  imagine the faces of your little ones and how life altering this is going to be for you all. Quite a lot of short rude words in my head, many followed by the word ‘off’…. And I’m not really very given to anger usually.
But my opinion doesn’t matter really.
How does it seem to you?
Acceotable as a way for you and your kids to live or not?  For how long?
What you deserve or not? Practical or not? Pros and cons? Boundaries?
And why?
Bc, unless this version of a marriage and family, the 2 days a week at home version, is acceotable to you, I think your h is essentially gaslighting you (and your kids) to behave as if it is normal and acceotable for your family. And if it isn’t, you have the right to say No Thanks to it.

Or have I misunderstood the plan?

Bc that’s how real life works, isn’t it?
We make choices.
Choices have effects.
We then choose how we manage the effects the best way we can for everyone involved.
This may come as a bit of an unwelcome shock to your h, but hey ho. This is what really getting what he says he wants normally looks like in the real world.

If he finds that upsetting or inconvenient, not your job to tidy that up for him. And when/if he leaves, you’re entitled to organise your life as suits you best without a kind of virtual ‘husband in name only’. Er, nope. :…..he is firing you from the wife job so you can lay down all those responsibilities - just focus on being a decent human, a responsible adult and a solo co parent. Jmo though - you will do you. I am poking hard I suppose bc I want to encourage you to think about all the different options you actually do have, and that it truly isn’t all about him. In fact, you and your kids outweighs him 4 to 1 

If he fails to make/keep that kind of standard separated parent agreement, (and I’d bet money I don’t have that he will), document it. If this situation does end up in a more formal separation or divorce, this kind of information may be very useful in securing more/all of the custody of your children and child support until they are grown up.

But I really would encourage you to take legal advice on a good draft separated agreement that won’t set any disadvantageous precedents for you if it becomes something more formal down the line. And co parenting, not ‘daddy pops home when he feels like it’ parenting. Bc that’s far from ideal for small humans, isn’t it? And I can see that you are a good mum, so I know you know that. 

I think a lot of us LBS worry that drawing these kinds of lines in the sand will ‘push them away’ more and limit the chance of reconciliation if that is what we want. There is no evidence here that this is so….actually there are some stories of reconciliations coming about bc MLC spouses get exactly what they claim to want and then find out they don’t like it much. But none I recall that were based on appeasement or nicing them back. Bc you and your kids are NOT the problem: your h’s dissatisfaction with himself, and his immaturity and self-centredness is…and in all my years on the planet I’ve never seen those things change if others keep feeding or enabling them  , have you?

As you will know, the odds of reconciliation here are not high and the process can take years, so it makes sense to live ‘as if’ from here on. You are a young woman with three great kids. There’s a lot of life to be lived yet. Please don’t let your fears limit your options or your beliefs about what you and your small ones deserve to hope for and have in your lives.

The good news is that focusing pretty exclusively on what you and your kids need and deserve is a win-win for you, even if it doesn’t feel like any kind of win at all given how you probably feel at the moment. Bc there is a good family life full of joy on the other side of this for you and your little ones, regardless of whether it includes your h or not. And if it doesn’t that will be his stupidity and his loss.

You have talked here about HIS plan. (Although in true MLC fashion, it’s not a plan as such, is it, more like the life version of a fast food menu)

What’s YOUR plan?
Bc I truly think you need one or you will all just end up inadvertently living on the edges or on a shelf in his.. And I think you and your kids deserve so much more than that.

[KeepCalmAndCarryOn]

What’s YOUR plan?
Bc I truly think you need one or you will all just end up inadvertently living on the edges or on a shelf in his.. And I think you and your kids deserve so much more than that.

Heh, you sound just like my therapist.. and you're right of course, this is definitely something I struggle with. I think as a child I developed a coping strategy where I would just adapt myself to whatever people expected of me. That strategy still serves we well in many situations, but it's also a huge codependency pitfall. I tend to think of what others need before I consider my own needs. That doesn't mean I don't stand up for my own needs at all, but if what I need conflicts with what other people want, I have to be careful not to forget myself.
It of course doesn't help in this situation that H is openly talking to me about how hollow he feels inside and how he wants to work on himself and his childhood issues, because my first reaction to that is to encourage him and give him all the space he needs. And while he still says he's convinced we should get divorced, he also says he has no idea how he will feel in one month from now. These little breadcrumbs are also feeding the idea that I should give him space to sort out his head. But then again, he did share his feelings with his co-worker already, so who am I kidding about him sorting out his head instead of just jumping to action? Aargh, however messed up this is, I still love him (or at least, the person I think is still in there) and care about his well being. But in doing so I indeed forget to claim the time and space that I need to detach and heal.

I think up until last week I was actually fine with the plan of him taking time to work on himself and being with the family for the rest of the time, but thi thing with his co-worker changes a lot. I'm still in doubt as to what my plan is though. On the one hand, I would indeed like to propose a co-parenting schedule and have him feel what it's like when we do separate. His apartment is not big enough to have the kids over, so he would have to come over to our/my house to take care of the kids, but I could stay with my parents on those days to prevent me still doing all the work for him. On the other hand, I don't think he can actually handle this at the moment, and I'm not sure I want to put the kids through that. The other option I'm considering is to (kindly) tell him that I don't feel comfortable leaving the kids with him at this moment, and whether he would consider to first really work on himself before we move to such a situation. If I go for the last option though, I'm basically giving him all the good things he wants (time for himself and time with the kids) without any responsibilities.

Last night he came to me to have a chat about some things, and the conversation drifted towards how he feels that reading his self-help books is helping already. He recognizes a lot in there, and he noticed how he gets less frustrated with the kids lately. I recognize that he's much nicer to them; less angry, actually asking about their lives sometimes. But from my point of view he gets less frustrated with them just because he doesn't spend as much time with them. We have dinner as a family, then he goes out to have a walk and smoke and then does the dishes while I get all three kids to bed. Weekends he also goes off to do groceries, DIY projects, whatever, while I handle the kids. I sometimes go out and do fun stuff with the kids, while he stays at home. So long story short, I'm starting to feel like me giving him space is actually backfiring, and is giving him the impression that he's doing better than he actually is. To me it sounds more like he is finding new ways or more energy to hide how he is actually feeling, so more running.

Bc, unless this version of a marriage and family, the 2 days a week at home version, is acceotable to you, I think your h is essentially gaslighting you (and your kids) to behave as if it is normal and acceotable for your family. And if it isn’t, you have the right to say No Thanks to it.

Yes, he definitely is. The kids will have a one-week holiday from school next week, and he asked me this morning whether he should take a day off so we can do something fun as a family. I was just so stunned that I did not feel like I could respond in a reasonable way at that point, so I told him I'd think about it. But somehow he seems to think he can leave, have his co-worker ready for a relationship and then still do stuff as a family as if nothing is going on. And I don't think he means this badly, he just really doesn't see that this is not how the world works.
So yes, I am going to set boundaries on these things from now on, since for me this is no longer acceptable with him already halfway towards a relationship with someone else.

Have you taken legal advice in your/his options and obligations? Big stuff and small stuff like redirecting his mail and your ability to exclude him from the house if you wish, ha ha as I am guessing you won’t be able to drop by uninvited and let yourself into his new home, right?  Bc tbh once he moves out, the landscape changes and you should. You don’t have to act on it but you should get some legal advice bc this is about your children’s wellbeing and keeping a roof over your collective head while maintaining your own sanity - three things that are too important I’d imagine to trust to fate or your h’s whims or promises. Or indeed ow’s agenda.

I'm not too worried about preventing him from dropping in uninvited, I think he will respect my boundaries there. It's ok if he wants to come over outside of his "standard moments", but he should check first. But yes, I had a chat with a financial advisor this week about our house, because I want more certainties about me keeping the house if we divorce. Right now H is still willing to cooperate with this, but that can of course change any time. From the first talk, it looks like it should be possible to get the house in my name, but it won't be easy. I may have to ask my parents to help out, so I'm currently trying to piece together all the details to give me a better idea of what is and isn't possible. Apart from the house, I'm not too worried about most things. I earn about the same as H does, so financially we should be ok

[Treasur]

It sounds as if your default - and how brave and smart it is of you to recognise this bc we can’t decide if we want to change things we can’t see - is to start with others needs and then work backwards to yours rather than the other way round? To sort of add yours in later if that makes sense?

If that sounds about right, it sounds as if the current situation with your h might get tangled up in that default so it inadvertently ends up being cart before horse given how things are. So, quite a lot of your post implies a starting place of a kind of ‘I think this will be better for him/what he is capable of/rewarding/punishing him’ and then moves to a ‘so I think I/the kids/everyone else can do x or y’.
What would happen if you mentally turned that 180 degrees the other way?
If you started with ‘I think this will be better for me and the kids’ and then let the dice fall with him as they fall? If you removed his needs/wants from your thinking and purely focused on your needs/wants….starting there and then folding his in at the end if there’s space? So, the opposite of your default.
What does that look like?

Worth considering perhaps if only to get a different vista and perhaps see some things that are not either/or but sit in the middle.
But with the health warning that, if your default is actually your normal pattern, it will feel a bit weird to experiment with reversing it. And your h will doubtless have become accustomed to the old default….probably why he feels so able to share his sadz with you without seeming to consider yours much  ….and he may be rather surprised and angry if you decide to change that good old default a bit 

[KayDee]

And while he still says he's convinced we should get divorced, he also says he has no idea how he will feel in one month from now.

And actually, neither will you. As the drip drip drip of his behaviour starts to take effect, you will begin to have your own shifts in behaviour and thinking.

I think Treasur is bang on. Perhaps you are still, habitually (?) coping for him. Perhaps you can try the 180 she suggests. It's not you that has upended everything, why should you stand on your head. He is capable of being a decent father, he is just chooses not to. And I don't want to be cynical, but I would be very surprised if he is 'working on himself', unless there is a whole school of mental health recovery called 'have an affair to fix your marriage and bond with your kids' - many self help book, IMO, are a kind of narcissistic supply. Not all, of course, but the popular ones don't really encourage introspection - they're all 'you are the master of your own destiny' kinda tosh.

[KeepCalmAndCarryOn]

It sounds as if your default - and how brave and smart it is of you to recognise this bc we can’t decide if we want to change things we can’t see - is to start with others needs and then work backwards to yours rather than the other way round? To sort of add yours in later if that makes sense?

Sort of, maybe, it's not like I don't consider my own needs at all. If something is important to me I will speak up. And for all major decisions in my life I do consider my own needs. This is actually one of the things my H is now blaming me for, that I apparently never listened to his needs when we decided to remigrate after spending 4 years in the UK. I know this is not true, he had a major say in this as well, but apparently he doesn't remember that.
But in smaller things, I think I do have the tendency to adapt to other people's expectations or needs indeed. Sometimes just because I just don't care too much about a lot of things, but maybe also sometimes out of habit or perhaps to avoid conflict? And perhaps I am still doing that. I like to tell myself I've accepted the current situation for this long because I need to know I did everything in my power to prevent a divorce, however little I can do. And that this is why I've been giving him this space. But maybe I'm fooling myself.

The problem is, if I try to turn it around, I'm not actually sure what is best for me and the kids at this point. I think for me the best would be to be away from the friendly facade of my H as much as possible, so I can detach more and let his problem be his problem. But for the kids, I'm not sure. I guess most important for them is that we stay friendly and civil, that they don't have to process too much changing at the same time and that they still have a dad. And perhaps that does mean that having dad spend time at home partly is the best at this point for them. In the long run, he would need to get a house where the kids can also stay, but that may take quite a while. We would first need to get our current house on my name, and even then it's not sure whether H would be able to buy something big enough. The housing market is crazy here.

And I don't want to be cynical, but I would be very surprised if he is 'working on himself', unless there is a whole school of mental health recovery called 'have an affair to fix your marriage and bond with your kids' - many self help book, IMO, are a kind of narcissistic supply. Not all, of course, but the popular ones don't really encourage introspection - they're all 'you are the master of your own destiny' kinda tosh.

This is actually what I'm also afraid of, that he's using self help books to try and bury the negative feelings again like he has been doing for so long already, instead of actually working on it. He does also say that he has to work through childhood issues, and wanting to seek help with that, so who knows, maybe he will actually work through issues. Time will tell I guess

[thissucks7788]

I don't know...but my H also wanted to be "best friends" and play family over the holidays when he left and  yet was trying to pursue a relationship with his LO.  For me, this would never work.  I felt H didn't deserve friendship from me and I don't want to play family when he was breaking it up and fired me from the job of being his wife.  If he was choosing LO than he was choosing to be without me, my friendship and he could have his own relationship with his son without my involvement.  This was just my view.  I did it for me, b/c how can I heal with him around dropping breadcrumbs...but also they should feel the weight of the consequences of their decision.  Also, when he comes over to watch your kids, I would dress up, go out and have some "me" time.  I wouldn't tell him what you're doing-- he lost that right.  Maybe you're re-evaluating as well.  I think they like to keep us as a back up plan just in case their new life doesn't work out for them.  I also say again-- I hope this isn't too hurtful, but I believe he is going to pursue this co-worker right away and not take space to "work on himself".
B

[KeepCalmAndCarryOn]

Saturday we told the kids that daddy is now sleeping in his own room, and is looking for a place for himself. H said this was because his head was "busy" and he needed time alone. They didn't respond much, D7 started acting out a bit throughout the day, first she said she wanted to live with daddy because she loves him more than anything, a few hours later she said she wants everyone to stay together S2 didn't really catch much of the conversation, but was a bit confused the next morning that daddy had a new bedroom. I'm actually most concerned about S9, who didn't really show much reaction at all yet. I hope that will still come out in the next few days, I know this must be tough for him as well.

When I asked H what we were going to tell the teachers at school, he was hesitant to tell them the same story that we told the kids (this seemed most logical to me), because he didn't want them to think he has a mental health issue... He's been talking for weeks about not feeling anything, being numb, not finding anything enjoyable, having childhood issues to work through. But no, it's not a mental health issue obviously. That said, I can understand he doesn't want everyone to know that per se, so we opted for just telling teachers the practical facts without any explanation (which will obviously make them realize a divorce is on the way, but maybe that's even for the better).

I noticed I find it more and more difficult to keep pretending to be a happy family together lately. In the past months I was mostly fine with it, but maybe that is because I was somehow in denial since H has still been friendly all this time. I think it's a combination of him contacting his LO and us telling the kids that is now making it more difficult for me to keep pretending.
H wanted to go swimming with the kids yesterday and asked me to join as well, I declined and stayed home with our oldest who didn't want to go either. In the evening, I told him that I don't feel much for doing things as a family in the upcoming school holiday either (he decided to take a day off to do something fun together), because I'm not ok with pretending to be a happy family while he is starting a relationship with someone else. He was a bit surprised, but was happy I told him. Interestingly, he said that he was about to ask me whether I would like to spend some more time together in the evenings again, since he noticed we have been mostly been spending time apart lately. I don't feel much for spending time with him outside stuff with the kids, so I've just been doing my own thing. He asked me to confirm whether it was indeed a bad idea to ask me to do more things together. I wasn't sure what to respond, because I have no clue why he would want to spend more time together.. so, I decided to ask him just that, why he wanted to suggest spending more time together. He thought about it for a while and then said it was probably just out of habit?? Also, he has no idea how that would evolve because he doesn't really look past the next couple of weeks.

I then asked him how this worked in his head, whether he thought this was acceptable somehow to start a relationship with someone else and still continue family life like before and spending time with me as well. I'm not sure that was a good thing to ask, but his answer was that he does sometimes wonder why he doesn't find this a weird situation, but he just doesn't. He expects this has something to do with him feeling emotionally numb and not having much empathy at the moment. We then talked a bit more about that, and he now seems to be convincing himself that he is in this state as a result of "us breaking up". Apparently his sister (who is a psychologist) told him this is a natural coping mechanism for some people in a situation like this. Obviously he didn't tell her that he was feeling depressed and numb for a long time before he dropped the bomb already, I guess this version of reality suits him better.

The working on himself that he was planning to do once he has a place of his own has also changed back to "getting his emotions under control", instead of actually working through things like he was talking about earlier. Apparently he read in one of his books that you can choose what you feel, so that is what he is now working towards. Sounds like more running to me...

I think that has destoyed my last little bit of hope that he would actually work through issues when he has his own apartment, but emotionally I'm still all over the place. One moment I want this to just be over, have him in his own place and set up co-parenting. The next moment I want to go back on what I said and start doing fun things together again, pretending everything is fine, and somehow hoping that this will all blow over (I know that's not going to happen).
I'm still hesitant with the co-parenting set-up as well though. On the one hand I want him to feel what things would be like if I'm not around to handle the kids, but on the other hand I don't really feel comfortable leaving the kids with him that often, especially in these times. He has no empathy and is trying to pretend the kids are not affected by this situation at all, I'm guessing because he doesn't want to feel guilty. But emotional support is something they need now more than ever. I can tell that he is trying to be there for the kids, much more than he used to actually. He is sometimes asking them how their day was, telling them he loves them (he never said that before to them!), asking them if they want a hug. He seems to be mostly copying my behavior towards them actually, but I can tell he doesn't actually feel it. In the past weeks there have also been several occasions where he just walked away angrily if they didn't do what he wanted, he gets annoyed whenever they get upset about anything, he starts power plays over the smallest things...

Sorry for the rambling, a lot has happened and I'm all over the place

[UrsaMajor]

I told him that I don't feel much for doing things as a family in the upcoming school holiday either (he decided to take a day off to do something fun together), because I'm not ok with pretending to be a happy family while he is starting a relationship with someone else. He was a bit surprised, but was happy I told him.

Sounds like a perfect occasion to establish a boundary that is good for you - on the order of "As long as you are establishing or in a relationship with someone else, I am not available to spend time with you or to pretend that things are all fine."

As far as his sister is concerned, I expect that he has told her the revisionist version of his story so take her "advice" to him with a BRICK (not just a grain)  of salt. She has most certainly NOT gotten the full story and, even if she did, she is not going to be objective....

My son who was 9 at the time was extremely upset with MLCxW when we broke the news to them ("You are taking away my daddy!") whereas my daughter (5 years old) didn't quite grasp the situation at the time. She is attached at the hip to MLCxW because MLCxW uses her as her emotional support..... S(now 16)  is, on the other hand, making his own way in the world and he and I have a good relationship. I have a good relationship with D13 as well when she is with me (every few weeks for the weekend or school holidays) and always did.