[xyzcf]

My therapist said this to me recently "confused people confuse people"...I have heard "hurt people hurt people" but never this way of expressing in so few words how dead on this is...."confused people confuse people".

She also stated that confusion is a type of torture..another heavy statement for me to just sit with.

Of course Ursa has expressed pretty well the same thing...trying to understand a MLCer is liking trying to taste the color green.

And he said “take care of yourself please. I need it”
Not - take care of yourself our kids need you or take care of yourself because you are handling so much, or because you are awesome or because I care about what happens to you - but because “I need it”
He needs me alive to take care of everything.

You do not really know at all what he meant by saying that. There are hundreds of interpretations but my guess is in his messed up and confused state, he loves you, not the OW and fancy lifestyle and if anything were to happen to you, it would crush him.

My 2 cents worth.

[amazinglove]

Thank you FH for reminding me that I am better than I used to be - at spotting and handling this. And xyz - how I wish that were true! But given that every single action and word from him has pointed to entirely self-focused (indeed I would say self 'obsessed') thinking, I am certain that he meant, I need you to be ok because I cannot do what you are doing and do not want to.
He knows his beloved 11 year old D is devastated about finding out his affair - ie his moral failure as a man  - and he has not reached out to ask how she is doing since. Not once. I told him if he is coming early Nov to come for Halloween as the kids want their dad walking them around the neighborhood (like the other kids, and he missed last year) and he said only 'i will try'. Even our kids don't make much of an impact.
Here's what I'm coming around to - these MLC'ers do not love anyone. He does not love me, he does not love his AP, he does not love his sister, he does not even actively love his kids (he feels sad and misses them/pride when he sees photos -that's it). He doesn't love himself either. He hates himself. He is incapable of love at the moment.
Randomly, the other day I had posted a cute pic of my son on FB - who is, objectively, an absolutely gorgeous boy - and my H posted this ridiculous GIF or Emoji of like hearts falling onto this little pig and it said 'my love, and you " like his love was like pouring out or whatever. It was insane because this man, who formerly refused to be on FB, would never have sent such a weird, feminine, sappy thing. His mother posted one underneath and it made me smile bc we always both found them so annoying. It was so contrary to his entire personality that even a couple of people I am friends with were like WTF was that? It's weird things like that that underscore to me how insane and totally diff he is now.

[Flummoxed]

Hi amazinglove, I think you may be right. However, at the end of the day, I agree that trying to understand it will just end up driving us crazy. I also don’t think they are capable, although my heart wishes that wasn’t true. They do not love themselves and you cannot pour from an empty cup. You sure can use it as a weapon though.

“Confused people confuse people” makes so much sense- it would explain all the WTF moments, that’s for sure.

I also just wanted to say thank you for sharing your journey and for sharing the radical acceptance term. We learn a lot from each other through this forum and this crazy rollercoaster of MLC and I wish you and your family the very best. You're doing brilliantly- you’ve got this.

[beyondblessed]

AL, I have a slightly different take on him needing you to take care of yourself.  It is possible he needs you to be ok because if you are fine and still functioning as normal,  then maybe, just maybe, what he's doing now isn't "so bad", and, therefore, he has not really done anything wrong?  Yes,  absolutely still all about him, either way.  And, yes, he does not love himself, so he cannot love anyone else, either. 

[Treasur]

I must admit that this was my take too. That he just doesn’t want anything that makes him feel ‘bad’ or ‘responsible’. Still not about you or the kids though, just word salad me me blah 😕 very textbook

[MadLuv]

Amazing Love- my xh at one point said, I dont feel love for you, I dont feel love for our kids. I’m the worst person I know. After he left and months had gone by I can remember a conversation on finding out some deceit of his and he frantically said, You don’t care how this affects me!!! I was so taken a back that some how my oain was my fault and calling him out was cruel of ME!!!

They truly are so lost that they are looking at any way to release it. I also believe that he needs you all to be ok, because he can’t take any more fault or guilt. If everyone can just be OK, then he can compartmentalize the damage done.

I do believe they are in there somewhere, but depending on the MLCer and there core and damage will give some insight if they will ever truly face everything.  They do know what they are doing and most ruminate on it all at some point, but they are so confused and damaged that they cant sort it out.

This is why now I truly see why you have to just let them be. Let them have that space to clear their own heads, because there is soooooo much going on in there and until they can calm their own brains of their own confusion there is no way for them to get to any rational thinking. Thats how I see it now almost 4 years in from
BD2.

[Trustandlove]

Again, just nodding along.  My former H also kept on saying "what about ME?" a lot -- it just made my jaw drop.  I once asked him if what he wanted was more important than what anyone else wanted, and he said yes. 

One of the things he also said regarding the children was "when do I get them" -- this wasn't about any custody dispute, he made it clear that he wanted me to raise them, it was more about when he could show them off or something.  My standard response was "it's not about you getting them, it's about them getting YOU".  He absolutely did not understand at all, and from what I can tell, still doesn't. 

He did say one other thing in the first years --  "you have to let me go".  I was confused, because it wasn't up to me, and I told him so, but looking back he was looking for some kind of permission from me, which of course I refused to give.  Once I remember saying "But you're gone!"  He wanted me to sort everything out, to give him the "get out of jail free" card.

I also know that he felt/(feels?) a lot of guilt, but doesn't do anything more about it.  Years ago he used to tell me that he felt guilty, I asked for what, he said "for everything".  But it stopped there, I didn't absolve him, and he didn't do anything more about it.  Once I was no longer in touch with him at all he has a few times said this to at least 2 of our children; my daughter said that she had told him "so fix it", and he had asked "how?".  Again, nothing further.  More recently the one son that still sees him occasionally also reported that former H said that he felt guilty, but again, just couldn't take responsibility and try to change things.  He still tries to "guilt" our children into seeing him, but always, always his own life/schedule/whatever comes first.  That same son recently told him that he had never put them (my children) first, there was no response. 

Way back when, near the beginning, my daughter, then 10 years old, tried to ask him why he wasn't at home with us, his response was that "I have a new life now".  That hit her like a gut punch.  He had also said things like "they have the opportunity to participate in another life", meaning again that it was all about him, they could be there if they wanted to. 

There have been a few points along the way where I started to feel like he was trying to participate in their lives, rather than the other way round, but unfortunately that never lasted.  At the time I of course took it for all it was worth, and even allowed myself some hope, but that wasn't to be. 

They do know what they are doing and most ruminate on it all at some point, but they are so confused and damaged that they cant sort it out.

So in my experience that is the case.  In my case my former H just keeps jumping from OW to OW, they can't even be called that any more.  He also jumps from job to job, we have no idea what he does any more, but when he left he had a successful career, that also is long gone. 

So, after all that rambling, I think you are handling it beautifully, even if it doesn't feel that way.  One of the worst things is what it does to our children, learning to tell them the truth age-appropriately was a learning curve for me.  At the beginning I did say that I'm sure Dad loves you, after a while I had to start saying that how he was behaving just wasn't right.  That I had no idea what was going on with him, but that we were the family, that we were together and stable.  Later I had to say that he had stopped paying anything, and this is what it meant for us, and so on and so on....    not pretty. 

It probably says something about me that I'm still reading here, and that I find myself drawn to respond like this at times.  It's from a very different vantage point, however -- my now adult children and I are a very strong unit.

Keep going -- I used to curl up in a ball, I called it "going into my bubble", to calm the noise in my head, it helped me see clearly in all the confusion, and that helped me to keep putting one foot in front of the other and stand my ground, which was invaluable.

x

[Dragonfly33]

Hi Amazing, I have to echo what BB said. The whole thing is just to take away some of the guilt he's been feeling. And you are absolutely right, he's not capable of giving love at the moment not even to himself. And it takes a while until he realizes that, if he does the work. I've been following your story even though I haven't written much here. You are doing a great job as a parent and you have been navigating this stormy water probably better than I did. You seemed to be an independent woman. When I was in your situation I was codependent and it was so much harder for me because I was totally lost, financially, emotionally and mentally.

Randomly, the other day I had posted a cute pic of my son on FB - who is, objectively, an absolutely gorgeous boy - and my H posted this ridiculous GIF or Emoji of like hearts falling onto this little pig and it said 'my love, and you " like his love was like pouring out or whatever. It was insane because this man, who formerly refused to be on FB, would never have sent such a weird, feminine, sappy thing. His mother posted one underneath and it made me smile bc we always both found them so annoying. It was so contrary to his entire personality that even a couple of people I am friends with were like WTF was that? It's weird things like that that underscore to me how insane and totally diff he is now.

My xh is exactly the same. I still have contact with him now and whenever I sent him messages he would most of the time heart it (different colors of heart). This was not the husband I knew of. Or everything on social media is for public viewing, with someone filming himself. He hated this kind of exposure when he was still my husband. I don't know really, maybe people change. Maybe because they hate themselves so they want to create a different persona. I really cannot explain why these things happened and I stopped trying to know. Despite that I am still amazed about the kind of patterns they follow. How similar they are even though they are different people.  Maybe this is one of the WTFs of MLC.

[UrsaMajor]

In the “seriously how can this be for real” category - we had some necessary exchanges night before last and he asked me why I was awake in the middle of the night. And he said “take care of yourself please. I need it”
Not - take care of yourself our kids need you or take care of yourself because you are handling so much, or because you are awesome or because I care about what happens to you - but because “I need it”
He needs me alive to take care of everything. As for me - His needs factor into nothing at the moment.
But I have to say, even knowing all I know, it was a WTF moment.

From him


He needs you to keep from dealing with the consequences of his actions. He needs you to keep him from dealing with the crushing guilt resulting from his choices because, as long as you are there holding down the fort and taking care of the kids, he has his own personal self-produced "Get Out Of Jail Free" card.......

This is not to say that you should follow in his footsteps so he can get a taste of his own medicine but more to say that, IMHO, he DOES have a "need" for you but it is completely and totally narcissistic .....

[amazinglove]

Thanks for those thoughtful and considered responses. They make a lot of sense to me. I agree with all of you.

My H is coming this Friday to see the kids. Just in time for my bday this weekend (yaay me! gaaah). Before you ask, he checked in advance, I am not picking him up from the airport and I have sent him 'house rules' that he needs to abide by if he stays here. I said if he's not happy with them he can book the Courtyard Marriott down the road. He can stay 2 weeks but he is not welcome for Thanksgiving as I have cousins coming and he ruined it last year. (he hates the smell of turkey, ironically) My 7 year old son is desperate to see him and have him here in the house and feel some normalcy - but for the first time, I have set boundaries with my h that I feel pretty good about. Also his clothes are in a bin in the garage and I have entirely moved him out of  my bedroom and bathroom. I am no longer 'holding space' for him. (as long has he has a drawer in someone else's house, he will never have one here). I have scheduled the bathroom renovations while he's here bc I need help with it, he said he is happy to be useful and will do anything. Unbeknownst to him, I'm planning to serve him divorce papers the day before he leaves. So there's that.  I may sound strong and clear headed but I'm still just kind of trying to handle one emotion and action at a time  - and I am having nightmares about being cheated on as I work thru the betrayal subconsciously.

Remember my backpack and the rocks analogy? This morning I was thinking about how much rejection I feel. How I feel jealous, and discarded and rejected and how much hurt I'm carrying around with that. It's heavy, and I am not sure how to remove that from my  burden. I think naming it and trying to look objectively at it, and facing it straight on, is a start.

My D still won't speak to him. She says as long as he has a gf she has nothing to say to him. I have been speaking to my therapist ab how to handle this- so  I told her she has a right to be angry, and she never has to pretend that what is wrong is right. Also he is her dad and she will have to figure out a way to navigate that, and I am here to support her in any way I can. Whatever she needs from me I will do. I also told my son 'daddy and I are not going to live together again, he is just coming for a visit to see you for 2 weeks' and he was v accepting of that. I wanted to try to make sure they don't get too confused. I also really want to show them that we can be divorced and they can still feel like they have two parents.

I guess the biggest problem is WHO is actually coming and how mentally unstable he invariably still is. He is not 'fixed' and I'm certain he is coming back still fundamentally selfish and narcissistic. he wil try his best to be polite but invariably he won't be able to sustain it. We had some texting the other day and he still seems to feel sorry for himself and v much justifying what he's done. His narrative is something like, he's been pushing down his emotions and feelings for years and then they all kind of exploded and he got frightened and ran. he says he is broken and a mess - that last part is def true. It does make me think - exactly what kind of person would be ATTRACTED to this?? a married guy, barely a job, selfish, depressed, completely dependent, feeble minded -his brains are shot -  I think this AP has a massive amt of control and influence over him- I don't actually think he could function right now without that?

I still think about him far more than I would like to admit. I am def not 'over him' at least the man I had a great marriage with all those years. I stil love him - or that part of him - very much. But I am accepting that that man is not an option. He has broken something that i cannot fix, nor does he want to. This week, I told my bosses that I am getting divorced. It was a big deal and difficult to do -I had to swallow hard. It is so painful and personal and now on the record as it were. I don't like to admit to people that I respect professionally that I chose someone who would do this to me and the kids, I think I have some shame about that - like why couldn't I hold it together? or why did I have such bad judgment to marry someone who was clearly a risk to start with, and ended up proving all the naysayers correct.

Anyway, that's what I am ruminating on tonight, as I sit here in my bed on my laptop with both kids next to me playing some kind of Roblox game together and talking about teleporting and virtual buses. Life is good, it really is.