[MadLuv]

I agree with the others. If they (mlcer) is ever to make it through this it will be totally on their own and even though they may seem to at times want help I’m not so sure that is really what they want. They just like to know we are there. My XH after I discovered more lies when I was still trying to “be his friend” asked why he would treat me so disrespectful. He said, I was disrespecting myself. I said, but you weren’t just disrespecting yourself without disrespecting me. He said, I guess you are my security blanket.

You know what we think is helpful honestly they ultimately resent. They need to figure out themselves and we have to step out of their way. They have to make their own way. Good or bad. If they aren’t fully choosing a life with us then they need to not lean on the ones that they hurt the most. I think it does enable to them to just keep spinning. Took me a long time to realize all my so called help was not helpful at all. Not to him, the kids or myself.

[xyzcf]

When  having a heart to heart talk with your former partner, do you bother trying to reassure them in any way? Do you say nothing and just listen?

I agree. We do not fix them.

But, it need not be an “ all or none” decision concerning our response to them. I do not understand how listening to them or offering our opinion about what they are saying is “ enabling”. We always say that their crisis is not about us or our marriages and nothing we say or do will make any difference. Their crisis is going to proceed regardless.

What is important is what do you want regarding any kind of relationship with him?  You are right, your well being is the priority. That doesn’t mean that you cannot care about him and what he is going through. It doesn’t mean you have to erase him from your life, unless that is what you want to do. Always, your choice.

I do light the idea of being a lighthouse.  You need not pursue but when they show up at our door, what feels right? He has been in your life for a long time, you have children, you have loved this person…what comes to my mind…what would Jesus do?


Many years in, I am glad that I made the effort to keep the door open, he is welcomed to be in our life. I ask for nothing from him. I expect nothing from him. I have a good life and his connection to me doesn’t hurt my life. It certainly is very helpful for our daughter and for us as a family…which we always will be.

We ask for advice because this is such a confusing and unexplainable situation.  Looking inside deeply, I am still the same in my beliefs of how  to treat people, especially people I love. It’s not calculated, I did not follow any rules to get to this place of peace …listening to my inner voice, understanding the pathology of this “ crisis “ and seeing his distress…praying for guidance brought me to care about him and show unconditional love, agape love…I believe that love is not wasted on anyone, especially one that is so broken and struggling in their crisis.

[FrenchHuman]

[...]
Just him finding the hole he dug himself for months/years rather real and a bit uncomfortable now, and he has no idea what to do to get out of the hole.
[...]

Can anyone really be a comforting helpmeet to someone who has not reached a point of saying ‘Damn, I don’t like this hole and no one but me dug it, so no one but me can stop digging and figure out how to get out of it’?

How close to that does your h seem? Think 12 steps….where is he honestly? Bc to me, it sounds like he is not even at the first…just not much liking the view from that hole and hoping that you and everyone else will keep throwing ropes down until he figures it out!

I agree with others that few of us want to be a$$hats when another human is distressed. Well, not for long anyway 😝
That one can be respectful and kind enough to acknowledge that you are hearing them say that the hole feels pretty s$it and that you are sorry they feel in a hole. Even that, if they figure out a post-hole plan, you will hear them out if they want something specific from you which feels doable. Full stop.

Hi Treasur,

I really like very much the story of the hole, thanks to write it here ! It describes very well of a person can act and feel during a crisis. And, IMO, it describes also what may happen for the LBS sometimes. I recognize my old self during the first year after BD : it took me time to stop digging my own holes and figure out how to climb out of these holes.

For the rest I agree with the others regarding your H, AL : your listening is already a big gift.

[amazinglove]

Well a lot has happened in the past month.

The headline tho is that I will be divorced by May 14th. I had a virtual court appearance yesterday and I got everything I asked for - sole custody, all finances, the house, all possessions that are currently in my name are mine alone. The judge even suggested and added a provision that my h cannot take the kids out of the country without my written approval, and encouraged me to take legal action re child support. It was over in 15 minutes and the judge could not have been more sympathetic and kind. When I was speaking to his clerk to reschedule (the first court date was when my h was here, and my d had her tonsillectomy and it was all too much) she said 'we see this kind of thing all the time' - a husband (or wife I guess) that just walks out on a spouse and kids, shirking responsibility, living in an alternate reality, pretending it's not happening etc. I assume lots of those are MLC that she's talking about.

I feel kind of hollow and sick about it, but also better. Like a bone that was broken and misaligned has been re-set and put in a cast. It's stlll broken, in fact it's been re-broken, but at least it's lined up properly in order to heal. It was never going to heal the other way. I am aligning the facts of my life with the reality of my life. he is overseas again with his OW.  I am here in my home with my children creating solid ground for us all to stand on. This part doesn't feel good exactly, but it feels right.

I have thought a lot about why I check back with this group, why it matters still, why it has meant so much to me in the past year and a half. I've come to this conclusion: the confusion is so overwhelming at first, the suddenness of this complete reversal of character, hatred where there was love, eagerness to burn down an entire life and start over, betrayal and lies from an 'honest' person, and on and on, it's so much to absorb that you need to hear similar stories from others because you are questioning your sanity and goodness.

But after the dust settles, after you start to see the state of where things are, when you survey the damage, that is overwhelming in still another way. I mean at least in this stage you are not in a fight or flight mode, you are eating again, you can sit with your thoughts and read a book etc, but figuring out how to pick up the pieces of a formerly lovely life on your own, parenting without another adult in sight, losing someone you still have great love for etc. it's really painful. Hearing that others got through this, made good choices, moved on and met someone new, healed, no longer hurt, no longer wanted their ex spouse, that has helped too. And where I am now, I feel like i'm re-learning to walk or something. I am not strong on my feet but at least I am moving in a good direction. That analogy Treasur made to the story of the tortoise and the hare has been so helpful. I have felt like a turtle caked in mud for months now, while the hare ran off in a cloud of luxury travel and high adventure - but i'm starting to set a pace and round corners now.

When my h was here for the month of Feb, I planned it so I was gone the first week, and his sister (the one I like) was here for the last two  weeks.  It was the best visit the kids have had in a while and it was easier going for me too. Not so much time one on one - in fact hardly any - and no big serious conversations. I will continue to work out the best way to have my children see their dad, but I am learning things too. The last day he is here is always the same, he's horrible to me, and gets really negative and sour. It's his way to remind himself he's doing the right thing by leaving. He does it to me, but he also kind of gets colder to the kids - he finds all kinds of handyman work, or gardening work so he is busy and detaching. It's so obvious. I am learning this too and I will figure out how to better avoid that next time. I also realized that altho his sister loves me and wants nothing more than for him to drop his OW and go back to me and the kids, she is so biased it's unreal. She says things like 'a marriage breakdown is always 50/50' and 'you are both going through something hard' etc etc. That kind of thing really pisses me off. But he is her brother, and he's cried plenty in front of her, and she will always be his. I wlll not go to her for advice in future tho, or let her in to my own thinking. That door is closed for me, but at least we parted on good terms, i mean, for now. I am v aware that in future, when he is grindingly poor, when his kids won't talk to him or visit, I am v likely to become enemy number one in this entire family. I think they will all end up seeing me as some evil witch who stole the kids and poisoned them against their dad. It bothers me, but I recognize that it's out of my control.

Where my head is now- is anyone else reading Mel Robbins' new book, 'The Let Them" theory? I am listening to it now on Audible. I love the idea of this. "When you let them do whatever it is that they want to do, it creates more control and emotional peace for you and a better relationship with people in your life. And after you 'let them' - - you have to 'let me' where you look at all that lies within your own control in response to what's happening around you and focusing on that". It's another way of talking about Stoicism/ Radical Acceptance/Detachment Theory. We talk about it a lot in this group and why it matters, this book is a good resource I think. I like listening to her voice and I recommend it on audible.

So for me, I am working on this: accepting that I cannot change the way my stbx feels or thinks about me, that he has feelings for someone else, that he is not living as a good person any longer, my kids no longer have a good dad, and I still miss and love the man I knew for 15 years. But I CAN accept that what has happened has happened, something broke that will never be the same, and that my life is now radically different. it's no longer about what should be, or about what I wish it was, it's about what is now, and i think a neutral (and occasionally hopeful)  expectation of what will be.

[Treasur]

Thank you for the book recommendation - I’ll check it out and share around with any of my coachees who might find it useful.

A lot of this experience is kind of odd imho, once the shock and pain starts to subside, and I think you described it very well. One finds oneself in a place you never intended to be, with feelings that can be quite dissonant or strange for you, and looking at an uncharted path forward. That can be a bit discombobulating and also a bit liberating. It’s strange, isn’t it? What’s that Alice in Wonderland quote about believing six  impossible things before breakfast? It’s a bit like that imho….actually the world feels a bit like that right now…it’s the churn of disbelief that is so exhausting but there’s a kind of relief and peace in accepting that a quacking thing with feathers is probably a duck. It moves you from the churn of being a chaos player to more of an observer, I think, but of course one can’t expect that everyone is going to see it as you see it. We humans can normalise and excuse the strangest things…until we reach our own individual point when we can’t bc the duck is too visible to us. Lots of folks in the world are struggling with this right now it seems to me and it’s interesting to see how different folks find their own ways to do that when old certainties and norms shift so sharply.

Thank you for coming back to update. We’re here when/if you need or want us 😝 And imho it helps many of us to read updates from people we care about further down their own road, it helps to see a different kind of hope for a different life that can still be a good one. Glad to hear that you got all you and your kids needed legally and that, sad as it is to be on the receiving end of an unwanted divorce, it gives you a platform to heal and reshuffle how your family life works from here on. These folks create a lot of chaos and uncertainty, and it can feel rather nice to be able to step away from much of that and leave them to it.

Hugs from here x

[Treasur]

Listened to a podcast version https://www.melrobbins.com/podcasts/episode-70?gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAApAMQlgUGMDhJ1KJvfCyr8oa_WrLc&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI0J-D9b38iwMVEpNQBh2ytRUSEAAYASAAEgKz7vD_BwE while sowing seeds today.

I like it very much - she gives some really good examples of how to put the principle into practice. Thank you for recommending it. We talk a lot here about things like detachment, acceptance and the habit of fixing and boundaries but how she talks about it probably makes it easier to ‘get’. And the simple phrase ‘let them’ is a winner imho!

[MadLuv]

I love the “let them” theory. Unfortunately, it was started by someone else and Mel Robbins saw an opportunity and took off with it. So, I have heard it is a great book, but it feels stolen to me and my standards wont allow me to support it. 

I’m so sorry for your divorce. This site definitely allows you to not to feel insane and time is still the biggest healer.  Once you can accept what is happening you then can start to move forward, but as most have said  in journalling a pain like this will stick with us forever. It’s a death. Truly a mourning of a person and a life.

[amazinglove]

thank you MadLuv and Treasur for the kind replies. They always mean a lot to me.

I had a good day yesterday. I did a training session in front of a larger group of clients and it went really well. They were v pleased with my work.  It was validating to do something that I am naturally good at and to know that it was so well received. It made me feel talented and accomplished. I am clearly still processing some kind of rejection hangover/betrayal trauma bc whenever I get external validation right now, it means more than it really ought to. But, in any case, it was nice.

I have ignored my stbx's messages for a few days and of course that has made him insane- gray rocking really does annoy a narc. Anyway i did eventually reply - it was ab the kids - but in response to his query ab 'how are you' i simply said,  "busy with home sale details. trying to look forwards not backwards. getting a bit stronger every day.". that was it.. his reply? "Im glad to hear that. I want you to always be strong. I am trying to be strong too." 

Please tell me you understand why that enraged me? I AM TRYING TO BE STRONG TOO?? are you for real? you took off and are traveling around in the lap of luxury with an old, rich granny who pays all the bills, and left me here with 2 kids to take care of on my own and a full time job, along with the betrayal and hurt I have (and my kids have) to shoulder, and you are trying to be strong too?

What should have been a straightforward follow up dr's appt today for my d's recent tonsillectomy took 3 hours in the end. The surgeon was running more than an hour late (no apology or explanation) and we had already arrived early bc I had to bring my son with me from school as there would be no one home when he got there. So, despite the fact that I do not have a 3 hour window for 'personal errands' in a day where I have a literal timesheet with billable hours, I will of course have to make it work. The headline is that my d is fine and cleared for all normal activities (including most importantly handball at recess and eating potato chips) but I nearly called my stbx from the waiting room to yell at him for saying those words. My sister talked me down from it thankfully. "he's crazy! why do you expect to get any normal response from him!? at least things are calm with him right now! do not call him- you will not get what you want etc etc" So I held myself back. Another, yet another, lesson in why less contact is better.

I think as we process the sheer unfairness of these runaway husbands (and wives), you AT LEAST want the narrative to reflect the truth, or at least some recognition that you are doing what you are doing. Like, yes, I stabbed you, and no, I shouldn't have done that, or yes, I'm not going to chip in on the giant dinner tab because I have no money and I apologize in advance that you are the only one paying the bill. Whatever. It sounds dumb but like, this crazy level of narcissism is just beyond insufferable.

[MadLuv]

They are the perpetual victims in the narrative they create. I do feel all truth slowly reveals itself to others, but they themselves have to reflect. It can drive you insane. Some times you get a little reassurance that others see whats happening and that in itself is a little sanity in the insanity. I just had one of those and haven’t gotten to journal on it.  Keep moving foward and maybe don’t give him “ your getting stronger “ give him no insight into your anything. When you do they find a way to tune it back to them.

[Treasur]

Hurrah for your sister 😜 we all need to borrow a bit of someone else’s brain now and then.

Your schoolgirl error imho (which I’m sure you know now) was to acknowledge his ‘how are you?’ by answering it. It’s such a normal question, of course, that we all use every day with people. Sometimes as a bit of polite ritual, sometimes bc we really want to know. Neither of these are probably so with these kinds of folks in these kinds of situations - I suspect it is more a door to ‘enough about you, let’s talk about me’ ha ha. But please cut yourself some grace for how plain weird it is to be dealing with people who are not so normal, much like Marvin described.

Next time imho either ignore the question completely (bc none of his business and he’s not a safe person to share any of your challenges or feelings with). Or go for the English style response of ‘Fine’ or ‘Busy’ which says nothing much at all 😜

Funnily enough, I had a nightmare a couple of weeks ago, really bad one that woke me up and left me hyperventilating a bit. Long time since that has happened. Can’t recall the details but I was in my old home and xh was there with ow and a whole bunch of her friends, and they were taking things from my house, going through drawers and cupboards, and when I called the police they said I was overreacting…..what I remember about the dream was that feeling of helplessness and surreality and being treated like I was the one who was a bit bonkers. How angry I was and how unfair and wrong it was. It was the feeling that made it one of the doozy kind of nightmares…and it took me most of the next day to shake it all off. I cannot tell you how grateful I am, irregardless of other life challenges, that the nightmare is not my day to day reality anymore! But some bit of my system obviously remembers it well, even years on….and as Marvin said, how one really can’t be exposed to too much of this kind of chaos and weirdness without it having an effect on one’s own well-being.

With a kinder eye - and not excusing your stbxh one jot for his self-created mess - I suspect some bit of him IS finding life rather difficult now. He didn’t want a divorce, I think, and it is a very real effect of his behaviour. Maybe he didn’t quite expect you to behave as you are doing, but thought you and the kids would live quietly in a cupboard until he wanted to play with you. All a bit grown up consequences for him, I suspect, plus these kinds of folks seem to major in self-pity like a marinaded fish. Well, when they are not busy with rage or bile or giddy indulgence of their specialness….but as you are probably saying to yourself more and more, ‘let them’…but you are not obliged to play or even watch the show 😝

Glad to hear your girl is fine. All the other single parents here get that reality of those moments when you are trying to get a pint of time and energy from a half-pint pot and that it is never easy. But they did it, you did it and in reality of course your stbxh would have been as much use as a chocolate teapot.