[zinger]

I am wondering about what constitutes a successfuil journey through an mlc for an mlcer.  How much awareness does one have to gain of the real issues that led them to mlc ( as opposed to bs like "my wife doesn't like to exercise outdoors--one of the justifications my ulcer had for why he wanted to leave )   Do they need to realize and make peace with childhood losses, etc on a conscious level or does the "journey" happen largely on a sub or unconscious level?

[StandandDeliver]

Mmmm, good question zinger, because if H and I ever reconcile, or at least become friends, I will be interested to know his take on his MLC statement, "sometimes you do dishes in the sink and we have a dishwasher" as one of the irritating traits he could no longer bear to live with and which drove him into the arms of OW...

[HeartsBlessing]

Do they need to realize and make peace with childhood losses, etc on a conscious level or does the "journey" happen largely on a sub or unconscious level?

Some of the processing they do is conscious; and some of it is unconscious.  Yes, they do need to realize, resolve, and make peace with their childhood issues/losses, and the aspects of these in order to come out successfully.

I'm digging my memory; but when I dealt with my transition; there was a great deal of activity that went on inside of me; issues crying out to be heard and seen.  At times, there was a literal chorus of people clamoring in my head; these were the children of my issues; and as each one was faced and resolved; they reintegrated back into my psyche never to be seen again...and that was another step forward for me.

Some of the issues came out; and were vocalized; a child spoke to my husband at one point while I looked on; some of the children spoke to other people who were there helping me through my transition. 

My husband's children spoke to me, also, during his crisis.  It was interesting to deal with the children; they told me and our son things in innocent ways; and one really made me smile; he was 4 years old, loved peanut butter on his pancakes; and got the most joy out of simple things.

In me, there were sad children, angry children, indifferent children...there were some happy children there; but few...I had alot of issues to deal with; but I never ran from any of them; although, it was so painful; and I didn't want to be in that place..yet, I had to be; because I needed to come through completely whole...and I did, although it took me six years to navigate it all and finish.

I had a constant "home movie", if you will running through my head; and events were as real, as if I had lived them the day before; I don't think it was any different for my husband.....these "movies" tormented him and me in our respective journeys.

The things they showed were very painful; and there was a real pain within that I could never get away from...it didn't completely go away until ALL my issues were faced; and I'm sure it was the same for him.  In many ways, he had more painful issues than me; and we each had to face the aspects that came with the issues to complete the processing within each of us.

It's a mixed bag in how each person navigates through their crisis/transition; and there's no real set way they will accomplish this task, but they must be willing; whether then, or later to face everything in full; and resolve every bit of it...as ALL must be faced; either way they choose to face it; before exiting out of the crisis.

You've got many who will face in various ways; as they have the strength to let a little more in to process; most in bits and pieces; and this takes time.

During the crisis; they do relive their lives from the first and the hardest issue they remember; and that's also why, at times, they will look at the LBS; and will NOT know who they are; it's simply because they are "living" in a time BEFORE they knew the LBS.  I saw this happen with my husband; he didn't know me at times; and at others; he seemed to have lost track of his sense of time and space.  He would say the oddest things; such as asking me what my name was again; and why was I here with him?  He really didn't know me.

It's all complicated, because this is truly an emotional and spiritual battle they face; and they are damaged, wounded; and these must be healed within themselves.  While we can influence them; we cannot fix them; therefore, we need to let them go to deal with themselves....because, if they can't learn to deal with themselves; they will not be able to deal with other people; even the spouse they've left behind during this journey.

It's similar to the journey the LBS takes to wholeness and healing; and the SAME lessons are learned by both people; the only difference is, the MLC'er takes the long way around; making some very serious mistakes that can hold up their processing/facing/resolving.

I hope this helps.

[zinger]

Thanks so much HB--I appreciate your insight.   I guess I'm am having my own crisis--a crisis of faith that my H will ever consicously "do the work" when he seems to be having such a good time running.  Unlike other MLCers, my H has stayed very present in my girls lives, seeing them more now then he probably did before.  He has his OW who seems to make him "happy" and he still has his job that he loves.   I am certain he is in MLC, and  I know this is replay but it seems like plenty of people marry the OW and live "happily" ever after--do these folks do the work and remain with the OW?  If someone stays with the OW have they necessarily not successfully made it through? 

 It seems like there would be no incentive for him to do the conscious work of dealing with his childhood losses when things seem so good for him now.  That's why I wonder if there are processes at work "below the surface"-- working there way through his pscyhe.  And then I guess I wonder what the incentive is to stop blaming the LBS for the demise of the marriage even if they have some awareness of their unresolved issues.

[Butterfly]

I can certainly understand the worry that they won't do the work to get out of MLC. My h married his  OW and certainly I watch anxiously for signs of trouble. Or will he be worn out and stall over there.
Only time will tell.
I certainly hope there is some subconscious work going on in his mind.

Butterfly

[HeartsBlessing]

Hello Zinger,

For one thing; whether he navigates through MLC or not; is up to HIM; and there's nothing you can do to help any of it along.  He has to reach certain mileposts, on his own, or not.  MLC is a crapshoot, a gamble; and not everyone comes through...you take a chance when you stand for the marriage.  Yet, time, is what you have to work with; and time is what you have to deal with yourself while he's off in the MLC fog.

For another; once some of the MLC'ers get divorced; the pressure to run, generally lifts from them; and some realize that the LBS is NOT the cause of the problem, simply because the pain doesn't leave them...it continues; and most continue to run from it; trying other avenues just to get away from it...but it doesn't go away; if anything, it gets more insistent; and that can lead to heavy anger within..that will also lead to heavy spewing against the LBS; which is part of their cycling..at least until they realize within themselves that they must look within.  No guarantees they will; but that's something you always hope for.

Recognizing the problem is within the MLC'er is the first step to learning NOT to take it personally; just because they say it; doesn't make it the truth; and the truth is within the heart of the LBS; who KNOWS that what the MLC'er is spewing is mostly lies; with a little truth mixed in.

I am certain he is in MLC, and  I know this is replay but it seems like plenty of people marry the OW and live "happily" ever after--do these folks do the work and remain with the OW?  If someone stays with the OW have they necessarily not successfully made it through?

 

Well, there's a situation I'm observing at this time; where a man went on and married his OW; the relationship itself resembles a teenage type relationship..both are still in deep Replay; judging from their dress, and way of interacting with each other.  This is all teenage behavior on both parts.

On the other hand; he's dropped some comments to me lately indicating that he's trying to move forward; he says he's trying to make "better decisions"; whatever that is supposed to mean to him.  He knows that I know what he's facing...and he's been in this for over 10 years now.  His wife(OW), is still trying to bypass his behavior; by telling him to take his ranting(well, I can't say exactly what she said) to my husband; and pour it on him.

He and my husband were once best friends; but considering where my husband is, compared to that other man; that friendship is pretty much broken; and they don't have much in common anymore...they are at two different stages of life as it stands, now.  My husband is there for him; but he's said, many times, that he doesn't understand him.   Since my husband doesn't remember his crisis; he wouldn't understand, but I do; and I've explained some of it to him; but it makes NO sense to him; and it shouldn't...he's finished with it; and has gone through the "forgetting" process; where it means nothing to him, now.

This man is still dishing out emotional damage to his ex wife; they have two children that are grown now; and a couple of grandchildren; and there is always a scrap going on between the two households over one thing or the other.   They try, sometimes to carry it over to our house; and we won't get involved; and have made it clear that we don't want to hear it.  But, sometimes, we still end up hearing it anyway...worse than children at times.

 He needs to back off and leave her alone; but he won't.  I think he still blames her to an extent; because there came a time when she filed for a divorce; told him to leave, and literally "forced" him to go on with the OW; because he didn't want to be alone...typical of a MLC'er who's trying to avoid their issues; and she's still being blamed ALSO, because she took the decision for going on OUT of his hands; therefore she does still bear the blame/responsibility for his having to leave for good.

I remember his ex wife saying she could not take his waffling anymore; and simply told him to go..and he went.

The point being; nothing is ever as it seems; most especially in MLC.  It's a dysfunctional relationship; made up of children trying to play grownups; but you're talking about what is supposed to be mature people; considering the age they are.

And the thing about it is; I don't think you ever really get "rid" of them, especially when you've had children with them; you just learn how to cope with their ongoing antics; which is what his ex wife has learned to do...but the fighting continues that direction; and as little as possible, I don't get involved with it, much at all, if any.

It's apparent they're not happy; but they have to figure this out for themselves; and there's NO rule that says the MLC'er who marries OW/OM can't work through their crisis, even if they go on  on their own, and marry OW/OM; it just makes it harder; because OW/OM don't make a good stanchion; and they have no clue HOW to help a MLC'er through..and that just makes a bad situation much worse, in my opinion.

There's many, however, who do get stuck; and don't make it all the way through; I've seen a few of those, too...and several were still in there when they passed away; so there is a chance that this can last a lifetime...simply because the MLC'er is too afraid to do the work within.   Yet, on the other hand, I have also seen LBS' that also got stuck; and spent their time fighting the work they needed to do.

So, getting stuck CAN happen on both sides of the equation.

I hope this helps. 

[CrazyStuff]

Zinger, I don't have answers for you although like you I know of people who have married OW and continued on with their lives.   One couple I know (with hindsight he went into a major midlife crisis after a heartbypass operation) look miserable all the time and have a very narrow network of friends.   Yet they continue. 

What I do know is that my h., like yours is living with OW, sees our two teenagers regularly and certainly makes more effort than he did before and continues in a job that he used to like.   So on the surface he is 'happy' with OW, a great father to our kids despite the separation and in a job that fulfills him.     However, I hear things from my children and others.    He told our D17 some months ago that he would have done things differently if he had known how little he would see them, he told D25 that he and OW fight (actually she controls him!) and he told a friend of ours lately that he intends to give up his job.   

He says none of this to me and I am sure if I asked he would continue to say how happy he is, etc., etc.,

From your details this is still very new and your husband is still on the initial high of leaving to get his freedom from you and life with OW.     Just let this run its course.    It will.   

I found solace in reading the articles on here, especially the ones on infedility, over and over again plus other peoples threads.

The hard bit, at least for me, is finding the patience to deal with the timeframe.   So I give myself 'time' - it is currently a whole year to think about / work on what I want from my life next.  Nothing to do with my husband as there really is nothing I can do to help him at this stage.     He needs to find out for himself that OW cannot make him happy.     

Take care,

CrazyStuff

[stayed]

This book that I am reading, Crossing the Soul's River, A Rite of Passage for men.  Written by William O. Roberts Jr., who had a long MLcrisis himself.   He says that MLC is basically an "identity crisis".  As a child we choose a certain direction and depending on response from family, friends, teachers, people we respect, we choose an IDENTITY for ourselves.

As the years go on, we sure up our identity even firmer and place ourselves basically into a box.  At a certain point in life, usually after a drama, life altering experience or some such thing, we begin to question if we made the best choice for ourselves.  We look around, see that all our material wealth has not really given us the happiness, contentment we had expected.  Our choice in spouse no longer "satisfies us", in fact we feel they are directly responsible for our discontent. 

He claims, that some MLCer's who strike out valiantly to change their lives, when first attempt does not solve their "unhappiness", they slink back into their box and continue to live a life of quiet desperation.   Therefore, some return to their spouse, basically unchanged, others stay with the OP, but they tend to choose "one or the other". 

I get the impression that unless they complete their journey, they are pretty much "doomed" to a miserable life, whether it is with wife or other woman.  Seems to me, that is not a situation I would want to be involved in.  To have my spouse return and settle grudgingly into his same old life with me, would make all this pain for "not"!

Seems to depend on the individuals, as most things do.

hugs Stayed

[HeartsBlessing]

Stayed,

I get the impression that unless they complete their journey, they are pretty much "doomed" to a miserable life, whether it is with wife or other woman.  Seems to me, that is not a situation I would want to be involved in.  To have my spouse return and settle grudgingly into his same old life with me, would make all this pain for "not"!

You said all you said in a different way; but it's the SAME things I have preached on so many times; only I'd phrased them all differently..very nice job of summarizing the book you've been reading.

And it's NOT a situation you would want to be involved in; when my husband was going through his secondary bout of crisis; that was the most miserable man I had ever seen; the battle within was intense; and he was fighting the completion of his journey tooth and nail..not that it did any good; and he was still fighting it when he fell and broke his ankle...he stopped fighting it around two months after that time; and started forward with a vengeance; finishing himself out the rest of that year and two months into the next.

What you summarized confirms again that in order to lead a peaceful life; the journey MUST be completed in ALL aspects...otherwise, the merry go round starts again and much worse the next time around with MORE time added; and more misery to be had.

Thanks for posting that summary; it's a nice bit of information to read and digest.

[zinger]

Thanks all for the thoughts.  Stayed, the book sounds interesting and I definitely will check it out.

Crazy stuff--thanks for your post.  I am not that familiar with your thread but I will read up.  It certainly is comforting to know other mlcers seem to be happy and high functioning with children and jobs--I felt like mine was a bit of an anomaly on that front.

HB, thanks for sharing all of your thoughts as well.  I know there is nothing I can do to help him in his journey.  I have been pretty Dark with him except for kid stuff these last few weeks and it definitely helps.  I feel like I am turning a corner.  I've noticed I can go a day or so without crying and I have noticed that I am able to have actual FUN--this is progress for me 7 months post BD.

I continue to work on myself and can see a full life witout him--I was the distancer so there is part of the being alone that feels good and easy for me.  My biggest current struggle is my D11--she is really expressing her sadness and anger (which is great and I've been encouraging her to do).  She just misses her dad being around and she really doesn't like all of the ping ponging.  She said to me last night:  "I just want daddy to love you forever.  why doesn't he?"  My H has explained to our Ds (11 and 7) that he kept his bad feelings inside for so long that that they just built up over time to the point where he was no longer happy with me.  My D11 is trying to understand that and make sense of it but she is a smart one and definitely can't seem to make the math work.  She doesn't know about OW--so far H has respected my wishes that she not be introduced to them. 

In light of my Ds sadness, it is hard not to feel like a failure as a parent--I know likely nothing I could have done to stop his mlc, but I feel so sad that I wasn't able to prevent this HUGE loss for my girls--as a parent all we want to do is protect our little ones and when we can't it HURTS LIKE NOTHING ELSE.

I'm trying to encourage my Ds to express all of their feelings to both me and my H so that hopefully they don't grow up doomed to repeat the cycle. 
ANOTHER QUESTION:
How do you all feel about the kids expressing their anger/sadness to the parent MLCer?  Does this send them back in the same way it does as when a LBS expresses feelings and asks questions?  Should I encourage my daughters to NOT share their feelings with their Dad?sorry to hijack the discussion...